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[Music] hi everyone thanks for tuning in to another edition of mobile insights within moby and very excited today to be joined by chaz castell of pubrev plus hey matt how you doing good it's you know of course we're we're used to to seeing you in our office um so this is a little bit of a different setup for us this time around yeah it's uh it's bizarre isn't it we're now in this video-only world um great so to kick things off uh chas maybe if you can for for those uh tuning in who maybe i don't know you and and don't know pug rev plus can you give the folks tuning in a little bit of an overview yeah absolutely so um public plus was was really started three years ago really kind of coming out of the publisher world the ad ups world and just seeing how much um i guess for one of a better phrase how much money publishers leave on the table and whether that be through their operations through their business development and partner integrations and then what we really see is the most important place where publishers really need help is their client-side optimization so their engineering specifically and so we've kind of brought this three-pronged approach to publishers and to really help them with revenue and growth and ltv optimizations for the long term so we've had the fortunate uh the experience of working with some really wonderful publishers and helping them really scale their business great and and how have both you and pub rev plus been been pivoting now that we're all stuck at home yeah that's a great question it's been really interesting because on the one hand you've had more people at home obviously playing games on their phones so dau is actually going up really or has been going up across the board uh since uh since the stay at home kind of or guess are they orders stay-at-home recommendations i guess um have gone into place in uh in the spring cpm's of course have taken a bit of a nosedive with certain industries turning off to travel live events obviously turned off over the summer they're coming back now again so it's really been a mixed bag it's been very interesting to see though how much the kind of confidence barometer has played into the advertising world and you know we're sort of as adups folk now we're almost kind of market predictors um the actual financial markets themselves predict advertising so we're kind of having to stay close to kind of the global international markets and seeing where they're moving which of course is all based on confidence and consuming consumer spending so it's been a really mixed bag of things i will say that i think a lot of the a lot of the bleeding that people thought would happen in the in the early days hasn't really happened aside from against specific industries like live live events or travel um so yeah so it's been for me personally actually business has been fine which is uh which is very nice yeah well that's definitely definitely good to hear for for you guys um so i think one thing that that's sort of interesting that we were talking about before so you know one of the reasons why we we are seeing in an uptick in in advertising and ad spending of late uh has of course been the us presidential election um all of the elections um from the the president all the way down to the the down ballot initiatives um you know of course the the kind of spot propositions here in in california um you know a lot of different groups are are spending uh money how has that political advertising really translated onto onto mobile are political advertisers really starting to to wake up to the potential of mobile yeah so it's interesting and for context i've i've sort of been you know with pub plus we've been obviously we're working with campaigns and organizations um as part of my own kind of holistic i guess mission for my life which is to try and just you know help people in the world generally so support campaigns and social issues that will kind of help humanity i guess i would try and in a very kind of uh airy fairy way say yeah so i've had a i've had the opportunity to kind of see behind the curtain i guess with some of these campaigns and organizations i would say for the most part i mean i would like to say that campaigns and organizations in the political world understand the mobile ad ecosystem because ultimately what we've created in our in our in our industry over the last 10 15 years is the most sophisticated digital marketing toolset and we have the expertise we've got the bi we have the knowledge we have the sophistication we have the ability to even bring ai and machine learning we can really reach anybody anywhere and get to do anything obviously we use it to monetize applications and create revenue but but ultimately it's a tool set that can be used for incredible good in the world or incredible harm in the world and um obviously we know many of us want it to be used for incredible good uh which is why part of the work we're doing is to try and bring this knowledge and sophistication to political campaigns organizations but as you'd expect with most industries that really haven't kind of do their own thing there really hasn't been much of a kind of welcoming opportunity to to move to mobile um you've got to again this is we're going to get into more about this about the us political system but you've really got an entrenched industry that has their own vendors has their own ecosystem and they really don't want to change um it's always hilarious to me and i'm sure to you you know we look at you know mailers right people send a mailers campaign sending actual physical mail and you think well why would you send physical mail to anybody below about the age of 60 at this point but of course there's so much infrastructure built around mailers so there's so many livelihoods so many jobs so many industrial agencies that run mailers so you're fighting against that bias which you haven't obviously every industry but certainly in the political world even more so because as we know just looking at congress it's a lot of older folks who are kind of out of touch yeah i think certainly some of the the past congressional hearings of uh facebook and google and others have kind of exposed that that knowledge gap as you were um yeah i think that's that's a really interesting point this idea that um you know i think for for those of us who are in this industry obviously you know mobile apps have been around for over 10 years it doesn't really seem like it's it's that that new or nascent but in kind of the scheme of maybe what some of these political advertisers are used to it is you know quite quite a different way of of thinking about things it seems yeah i i had a really great quote from a campaign manager who was was very open to hearing about all the tools that we could bring and what have you um and it was really stuck with me it was really really intuitive to see kind of behind the scenes of how how these these thoughts go through and which was you know the idea that like this person said look i'm looking at um a tool shed of all these amazing tools but i don't know what to do with them and i think there's a a responsibility of of the folks who do kind of walk in both worlds to show how the application of these tools can be so effective the the challenge of course in the political world is you know we know how how how creating these growth funnels are effective we we optimize to ltv as a north star so we know user experience downstream optimization machine learning ua all these things we're optimizing towards ltv in the political world you'd be you'd be kind of hard-pressed to understand well what really is ltv because we kind of have a breakdown in our political system um with with appealing or creating a good user experience so there really is no ltb so that's always a fascinating it's always a fascinating when you kind of put on both hats that's a really fascinating challenge yeah that's a really interesting point i think you know as marketers we're we're kind of used to seeing the the long game as it were right like you don't want someone to just download your app let's say and then that's it you know you want to see are they using it are they engaged do they still have the app on device 7 14 30 days afterward um you know i think it's it's just that and the way the political system is right like it's just a totally different way of for us to think um so i think that that's really good advice to for all of us really in in the mobile advertising ecosystem to think about yes we have all these great tools but how do they impact people running a very different type of campaign than what we're used to yeah and it's almost like and we'll get to this in a second but it's almost like there's a social a realignment because if if let's say if if we thought in the political world if our political representatives thought about ltv i mean you're talking about kind of the the plato's idea of philosophy for kings and queens okay how does a what's the ltd of a country you know what's the what's the what's the long-term benefit of education well we all know that but if you're running a campaign you're a startup and you're trying to just get money essentially everyone in your email list is a transaction you're not actually emailing and saying hey we need to improve education because 30 years down the line we're going to need to worry about china's what you know china's infrastructure and what have you so it's a very different set of goals and it's almost like every campaign which you know every new campaign at least is is essentially working for the short term they're just working to get money they're just working to get over the line they're not really worried about churning users and imagine imagine an app that was set up to just make money in 30 days right yeah i think also that that kind of compression of timeline i think is really interesting right because if if you're a brand you have to think a little bit long term right for just your survival but a campaign you know after november third there's no point in having money in the bank yeah yeah completely and obviously yeah completely in terms of the the the the nuts and bolts having money you can't spend money but the but i think that what we're seeing at the moment is a direct result of the lack of trust that people have in these political parties because if you're again if you're an application and all you're doing is saying give me money and you're not worried about people churning out you're just you're spending money and then you're churning out users well your ros is upside down number one so that so any ua person will be fired if they're if they're but if you think about the impact for the country if all you're doing is churning people you're making money and you're in churning people out and you're not just churning people out of your campaign or your organization you're churning people out you said the word brand you're churning people out of the brand of politics so the idea of politics if we i'm sure if you were to go and take us a random sample and say what does politics mean to you positive negative my guess is probably more negative right i mean oh absolutely yeah but and that's that's not that's not by accident that's been a a real i not say deliberate but that's been a real kind of um negligence by these parties to actually understand how do you engage people civically in in lieu of just basically again asking for money i guess maybe a question for you you know for for those of us who are involved in in political advertising to to some extent do you think that we have a a role in in kind of helping like it do you think it it's part of our purpose to educate political advertisers on some of these more long-term goals and benefits that we've had a chance to to hone over the years yeah that's a that's a question that's kind of in a few parts i guess because we've got the actual tool set itself which again can be used for good or evil i mean that's that's the wrong way of saying it but it can be used for harm or to help people and without guard rails look we've simplistically i feel like the last 15 years have shown us that digital marketers can do anything and if you have unfettered capitalism without any guard rails digital marketers will what's that voltaire quote about um if you can if you can essentially get someone to believe absurdity you can you can get them to commit atrocity it's just you it's just about changing hearts and minds and without regulations i mean yeah you mentioned the uh the congressional hearings i mean aaron hatch saying to mark zuckerberg how do you make money i mean those are our those are and obviously he's not uh uh he doesn't he's not everybody's just one one senator but there's that level of either lack of preparation lack of caring or lack of knowledge about digital marketing and we are in a we're in a madonna 2.0 we're in a digital marketing world that's that's how we've got here and we've got somebody now who knows who's specifically setting up icon this phrase of the day that i loved at the division industrial complex you know we've always had marketing and news trying to divide us but now we've got specific companies and specific individuals trying to divide us for their own ends and they're using this incredibly powerful digital marketing tool set without anybody saying hey you really shouldn't be doing that yeah i think it's um i think one thing in my mind i think that will be really interesting to to take a look at is so um i think there's been a sense of you know you mentioned a lot of political advertisers and mailers right and they have yard signs and they do tv ads but we're already seeing people spend more time you know staring at their smartphones at their tablets then they are looking at you know just like a standard linear television set you know there's this shift in consumer behavior and consumer behavior and this related shift in what's possible as a result of of this movement and eyeballs and digital marketing um and it sort of seems like there's many of us are still trying to catch up to to that and i think that you know we're seeing a lot of ccpa just you know was passed into law earlier this year there's an additional privacy law here in california that will be on the ballot i think it'll be really interesting to see how local state and federal governments are are kind of reacting to to the ecosystem in the next few months and years yeah i think you're right i think regulations previous regulations will be a big one um we know we have to hope and have our fingers crossed that those folks in congress are doing this from the goodness of their heart and they're trying to um it's difficult again because you've got congress is made up of a number of wonderful individuals who are there for the right reasons but probably equally as many individuals who want to learn their pockets and that's really really sad and that's again you go back to the drivers being you know all the various laws around pax and no guard rails there so yeah i think privacy i think i think we need gar rails as digital marketers we need those and um you know we on you know we all know engineers who want to build stuff and get it used great but there's no then this will be the next big thing is ethics in tech it's just because you built you can build something should you build it and what's the ramifications and as companies who are obviously trying to make profit we're not responsible for asking those questions and we shouldn't be responsible um it's really up to government to say look you know we have to have guardrails around things you can do things you can't do and i just think we've had an abdication of that responsibility which is amazing to me because we have incredible people who run you know the intelligence committee and all the various committees that look at this stuff and i'm amazed with you know the fcc fairness doctrine um the communication decency act i mean it's amazing to me how we have such weak legislation when these people are so intelligent and they know exactly what's going on so let me let me ask you you a question um you know as digital marketers as people within the the mobile advertising space what do you se is is our role and our responsibility when it comes to politics and political advertising yeah and this is this is the kind of question you asked earlier that i completely didn't answer so i apologize yeah i think i think our role i think from a social standpoint i think there are now you know many many of us in companies across silicon valley across the world who understand that what has once been political is now kind of i guess social appropriateness i think there are things that are happening and there are things being normalized that are just not appropriate no matter who you no matter who you support or who you believe in and i think that on the individual level many of us have having that real kind of uneasy feeling in the pit of our stomach okay well what do i do about this the the machinery the political machinery is kind of corrupt and broken so i don't really want to get into that whole controversy about you know one party or that party but i know i need to do something and i think that's happening on the individual level and i think obviously because companies are individuals at large it's happening on the company level so for example you know my outcome per scopely um they just announced it over the summer about donating proceeds to black lives matter which is fantastic phenomenal um pub native is running um inventory around kind of covid awareness and health health awareness which is wonderful mopar has a for good campaign actually was just invited to a unity uh kind of for humanity conference so i think companies are kind of stepping up and realizing they have a role but again it's it's kind of sad because government should be we should have these guard rails in place we shouldn't be here um and we're seeing the kind of breakdown where companies really have to step up and say these things are wrong and we have to make uh we have to make overtures for things that we believe are appropriate yeah and and i think it's been it's been really interesting from my perspective to see these companies make these kind of of changes you know i always think to the old michael jordan quote uh even republicans by sneakers um and i think that um idea of kind of staying a business being separate from from politics has been kind of long entrenched in in the business world and we are starting to see that um as as changing now i guess i can in your mind you know why do you think that's really been been the case and then for companies that that are kind of going down that route you know what are they how do you i guess take a a stand without potentially alienating your customers or maybe you do and you accept that as a price of business yeah that's definitely one that's definitely one way of doing it in a way it's been it probably is probably more opportunity and there's more leniency now for companies who specifically make a you know again starting with black lives matter it doesn't mean you support a particular party it just means you're saying black lives matter you know we want a world where the color of your skin does not dictate how you treated by police that shouldn't be a difficult one to say um but but you're right certainly whether you support this organization that organization traditionally has been seen as you're telling people you're broadcasting who you support politically and that's i keep coming back to that's the real tragedy is that we're human beings with kind of pluralistic viewpoints the idea that we're boxed into these binary choices is completely antithetical to who we are as people we all want the best for each other or most of us do like there's probably a small percentage of very s tiny sliver of the percentage population in the world who actually want to harm people most of us want the best for each other it's just we have different ways of getting there so the idea that we are you know divided by again uh this industrial complex whether it be the political machinery whether it now be um essentially media which is created to to divide us and kind of you know so so division it's all it's all should be superfluous it shouldn't be it should be outside of what we want as human beings ourselves um and i've forgotten the question now i've got i've gone off on a tangent sorry no no i think that's i think that's sort of a good point that there's i think you know like how we feel about the world and and you know how we and our co-workers feel about the world you know it's it's rarely so black and white there's a lot of gray area in between and i think you know companies are are in many ways just a collection of the of the talent and resource that are powering it um and you know those those companies have you know the people who work there the people who lead those companies have have kind of opinions and and desires and you know it's you can't just say like why this is one part of me i leave it at the door as soon as i log into my work email um and then like i i go back to it as soon as i log off for the day the the lines are never really that clear yeah absolutely i think that that was that was it yeah you're right and i apologize i keep i i've got i feel i've got so much to say and i'm i'm trying to not be too animated um um so tell me if i'm maybe i should shout and scream but i'm not sure um so apologies for kind of going off on different tangents but but yeah i completely agree it's almost like if we look at this as you know if there was a humanist party right a humanist political party we all want to belong to that we all want to help people and do good for the world and um you know many things that republicans say and many things that democrats say are great we believe in them but somehow we have to hitch our what's the phrase hitch our horse to a certain wagon and that's the only wagon that's totally wrong that's totally antithetical to life and so you're right companies then are presented with this binary choice of saying yeah okay you can support this party but don't bring it in here whereas if there was a let's say a humanist party great talk about the humanist party talk about how you can help the world so my my proposal i guess on my proposition would almost be well let's forget republican democrat completely forget that let's just talk about how we want to help people and i think that's a mission that everyone can get behind definitely a mission i can get behind [Laughter] um so i i want to go back to something that you've actually brought up a few times already so there's this idea that like i think when when you work in in a job and and kind of work in a lot of industries it can feel like you're maybe some of the things that that you want to do and some of the change that that you might like to see in the world are are separate and distinct from what you're doing at a job and it sort of seems like you're talking about that's not necessarily true um that like your your professional skill set can can kind of align with the causes that you believe in and what you want to you know kind of see differently in the world and i'd love to hear a little bit more about how you how you square those two and how you can see the the personal and the professional um i guess sort of be combined wow yeah you're asking really kind of slow searching questions i love it um i guess there's two parts so so leaving the personal professional bit to aside for a second so the in a way i was very lucky so i i've been working digital now for whatever 15 or so years and um you know being very fortunate to work at companies kind of as they were building their you know scopely text now kind of warner brothers actually in in a way you know adding ads to certain apps and building a growth funnel and building this stuff going from a kind of startup mentality to a more corporate environment so i've had i've had i've had a ringside seat at number one how to do operationally successfully financially but number two culturally how to do that as well and i've had some amazing mentors throughout the last decade or so to watch them really really scale this kind of personal capital and really keep this inspiration uh going as they grow the companies um so i've been very fortunate in that way i've i've been able to garner that expertise but also garner that ability to manage and kind of move move uh move things to a larger level and be entrepreneurial in that sense so when you know after the 2016 election um and maybe it was just me but i feel like on almost every call i had with a with an ad network with a publisher we talk about politics and we'd kind of come to the end end of that first 10 minutes and say well what do we do and i just heard that enough honestly matt i had enough people struggling with what to do and it made me think how in a second again coming back to your point you know we are digital marketers with the most sophisticated tool set in the world we own the distribution platform we we've invented all the tools we're the best people doing this frankly that has ever lived um and even now when we're so good that now even tv has been becoming programmatic so everything we everything we've done is kind of seeping into other industries and so i really felt okay well there's a a real value i can bring for causes i believe in now it happens to be for a specific party but again you know if we had multiple multiple parties i'd just kind of pick and choose who to work with but i do believe look i believe we need to have democracy um i believe we need to have fair you know fair voting i believe we need to be represented correctly i mean this this this electoral college thing like who who thought of that i mean that's insane and i haven't been here for very long so i can say that um so there are things that just don't make any sense i think when you look at kind of the us political system and again whether whoever you support party whoever your party preference is i think we can all agree that that the will of the people should be in a democracy should be adhered to should be reported should be kind of listened to and we don't we haven't had it for a long time and so um my goal is to is to really work for democracy to make sure people listen to and we as you would in a company we um kind of on board i guess we educate people right we invest in we invest in educating people to create the most happiness uh for the pride for the next generations and so that that to me is is kind of the goal of you know ultimately the enlightenment of humanity is better education and more representation yeah i like what you said at the beginning it's like we're the the best digital marketers that have ever existed in the world and that is a that is a lot to chew on i think um but i think that's sort of a good point you know it's like we were really good at an engagement at awareness um and and you know how we can use those those tools to get the word out to get people to be involved and active like that can be applied across the spectrum you know politics um music movies um you know causes and nonprofits um i i like that way of thinking about you know like what we're advertising can can really span a wide ground yeah and it's the what's that quote is a social dilemma but if you're if you're not buying a product you are the product and that's where the that's the inverse so that's the kind of the the shadow of the digital marketing is that now we're like a sun where we're becoming a black hole where everything's looking inside and essentially collapsing in itself so we're now the product as well which is again the when digital marketing is used for more nefarious terms to create division and so um yeah i think i think i think i was very lucky in that i recognized i was able to bring those tool sets but look hey i mean as i said the political world is probably five to seven years behind where we are in terms of understanding the growth funnels so these are opportunities if people want to make a difference and maybe i should plug this people really want to make a difference and i know they do from our industry it's a very low barrier for entry yeah the the glorious of programmatic in action right yeah absolutely yeah um so i think an interesting question that something that that i think a lot about is that obviously in in election year and just considering just the craziness that has been um you know a lot of various issues have been on the forefront of of my mind and certainly in the minds of others but certainly in our lifetime we've seen causes come and go where people get really passionate about them and then you know regular life takes hold and and and we de-prioritize things how can we make sure that i guess both just us individually as as marketers and in our our industry that we're in how can we make sure that we're continually doing good in the world yeah this is a difficult one isn't it because you're right it's like i always think of that kind of stephen covey you know the four boxes where you've got urgent and important uh vertical horizontal and box one is everything's urgent and important and so that's what you're seeing for the last three years there's been a a specific intention to make everything urgent and important so we're overwhelmed and as a company individual you want to live in box two which is it's not urgent but important and so you want to be thinking six months you know just like we do in our jobs right we're we're optimizing for the long term we're thinking about ltv um but you're right if it's not right in front of our face we probably won't prioritize it i i was i was thinking about uh some of these questions earlier um or thinking of what i would say earlier and i and i started obviously we had we've had this in california we've literally had the orange sky right in our face and i just wrote down the oranges in our face that's a that's kind of kind of a good quote so we've literally had that i mean with no running away from her and we now have covid which is something that we'll never have again in our lifetimes and our children will be asked when they're older yeah fingers crossed exactly yeah but you can ima you know i remember you know talking to my grandparents about the blitz saying like how did you live through the blitz and i can imagine our children being asked graham you know grandma granddad what was it like this thing called covered what like what really you couldn't get there to wear masks crazy um we've got distance learning which is uh can if i excuse my french it is an absolute something show it's just insane completely insane um i don't know how my wife hasn't jumped up a bridge we've got three kids at home at the moment and uh it's insanity um and then we couldn't go outside for two weeks so things are now urgently important and i think if we can as digital marketers if we can think around normalizing the culture that we're gonna have to keep being civically engaged and i think that comes from a few places i think government should do that i think there should be a like a ministry of civics or some kind of civic uh focus over the next 10 years to teach civics in school again and i think we should do that as app again as our publishers and developers we have the distribution um means to do that and you know many apps are doing incredible things like teaching financial literacy literally because the education systems failed us and we do not teach financial literacy in schools which is something everyone should have so we have a we have a direct way to get to consumers you know from industry so i think creating and normalizing that culture around engagement in civics and i think it's really exciting to see a number of companies already kind of holding these summits or doing these um these campaigns that will start to normalize that idea yeah no no i you know we there's this whole idea that that we that i see published a lot you know forester and and others will talk about the new normal right this idea that as a result of of covid certainly you know our habits and and patterns have changed and that um you know in some respects one it's things that were already in place before right it's not like netflix was a brand new service that we all decided to use for for no reason in 2020 um but that you know in some ways even when hopefully covet is one there's going to be kind of an entrenchment of new habits and new norms and i think um you know maybe a lot of this as a result of kind of thinking about the public good of you know thinking about the wider ramifications of our our actions i could easily see being a new normal as well yeah and there are some really interesting things in the government as well in the sort of public sector talking about the way that companies boards are made up or you know a green bottom line or various things um you know i'd love to see local government tax incentives for certain certain actions um i mean wouldn't that be great if somehow validation of companies uh and and and their financial renovation was based upon activities the good they did in the world so i think that's becoming more of a cultural i would say norm but it's it's kind of happening more and more people are talking more and more about that i would like to say one thing i do think we have a unique opportunity um both as social change makers but also financial as well there are organizations out there uh you know whatever happens in november we're gonna have a a kind of a a propaganda war that's gonna continue and the division was going to continue and unless government put guard rails in it's going to continue for a long time we have a through our distribution network we have a unique opportunity to create and run kind of brand awareness campaigns around i would say social appropriateness or social good i mean you think about you know the the large scale the volume we can run about advertising campaigns and we can really change hearts and minds and so there are there are organizations on the on the buy side looking at this we have the distribution network for publishers we're we're the trusted kind of entertainment for the folks at the moment you know people are at home they're going to their app they're playing their casual games they're reading their news sites they're going you know eight ten minutes per session we're their trusted source of entertainment at the moment we can create even better user experience and trust by running these sorts of campaigns so running campaigns about you know being nice wearing a mask you know consider other people's feelings i mean silly things but things that no one's saying and we can i believe there's actually a unique opportunity for publishers to deepen that relationship with their users yeah you know if if i'm watching wheel of fortune on television and i see an ad for um you know a local like the the aspca or um like a just a public service announcement like i you know i wouldn't think anything of it like i wouldn't feel negatively of the network for for running that and you know these kind of existing modes exist in in other medium but maybe they're just not quite as as prevalent yet within mobile yeah and i guess it's education i think that i think there are these campaigns on broadcast um you know connected tv now has been looked at by a number of the bigger campaigns organizations uh programmatic buying but yeah mobile as as we know from direct with brand i mean how long has it taken us to kind of convince brands to go to mobile and away from like print i mean just insane so now it's almost like yeah it's almost like now we're trying to convince political campaigns to move away from print hey guys like print doesn't work like we knew that 10 years ago yeah as a former uh print journalist so that hurts to hear out loud but it's very true and again it's it's different right in local markets print does work really well but i think for kind of mass volume and and really um brand awareness i think print doesn't really do the do the job right right yeah you know way more people are playing games on their phone or chatting with friends through apps on their phone then they are you know watching the the evening news um you know just mobile connected tv is just where people are spending their times now yeah yeah absolutely no i think i think it's interesting i was actually i kind of got that idea from from actually from a campaign that was talking to me about the trust that that users have in apps and it suddenly dawned on me oh of course like we are now the you know with the kind of the the fragmentation of all the audience networks in terms of tv you know news networks we are the kind of the news and the information and in some ways we are the escape you know people like and even more so now with covert people aren't going to the movies um you know we are we are playing a vital role in people's lives now and we can use that for incredible good yeah absolutely well um chas always great to chat with you we've covered a lot of territory uh here today um as we we close out any any final thoughts yeah i mean i would love you know i'd really like to you know talk to people in this space in our in our space who want to who want to work on these things i think there's you know there's there's a real financial and kind of social opportunity here and i think i think companies writ larger are moving more towards this i think individuals um you know i'm running a phone bank on sunday i've got a number of folks from our world kind of signed up to help me i think it's i think the you know the key is going to be we're going to need to heal as a country and we can play a vital role in healing the country a vital vital role again no matter who you support whether you vote doesn't matter but healing is going to be the number one thing we're going to have to do otherwise we just won't make it how many people are interested in getting in touch your email if i remember correctly is chas pubrevplus.com right yes it is and you're gonna love that you're gonna love this i actually i started for my political work i started a side company uh you're gonna like the pun it's called optimize the world very nice chad c-h-a-s at optimize with a zed because i'm now in america optimizetheworld.org fantastic well chaz as always great chatting with you um good luck with uh remote learning and until next time yeah thank you