Sign Arkansas Electrical Services Contract Myself

Document type sign electrical services contract arkansas myself

last year I spoke about basic electricity and I used to be an electrician and kind of a Navy and everything went down when I didn't have a power and I didn't any slides and so I started just rest of the class and I reverted through the lessons learned and stuff just the main food the rest of the class and try to add some value for the folks to show them we've lost a meter all that stuff so I thought when they asked me if I'm going to come back and speak this year as a neutral might change my topic I said I really don't want to talk about basic electricity I want to talk about all the things that happen whenever estimators and designers misunderstand each other we should be alright at that time they said yes I said mom will teach everybody all the things I've messed up so that's not what this is so my name is Preston one I work for Devils construction been in the city area for almost 20 years first part of my career was in the electrical industry so I master electrician about the 10 year mark and I got bored with my career decided that I wanted to be but remit myself some money so I don't go to no contract outside so I think it nah work with metal construction actually as a service electrician so previously in my own career I have a project manager and I focused on design will work which is where I met the guys at Metro air over there the work I can't bear to see they and anyway I took a little step back in my career because it was a hard time transitioning from an electrical contractor to a general contractor so I put the tool belt back around for a while and it ran some service path transition transitioned into an assistant superintendent that role and then I moved into the estimate there was a guy at our office and that old so I was asking when they what he did it and said well I I work in pretty search and I said well what's what's a pretty good search he said well we help the architects engineers stay within budget even before the science entity he said they haven't had a chance to talk to the the owner and then fully understand what they want and the owner really isn't what they wanted either because they need input from the architects engineers and there's just this big question mark out there how do we change the design the state than the budget Lee said that's what I do in pre-con is I help everybody say budgeting and I said well that actually sounds really cool I like the people and and so I told him about my background design build and he said so if I get this in the drawings just you be kind of put the electrical system I said absolutely it goes okay you're working for me so it's kind of that simple just had a conversation around the profit box one of my co-workers but anyway enough about me I want to know who else is in the room he doesn't have to tailor some of my comments in architects after I said that north it's going to raise their hand are they [Music] I see subcontractors HVAC electrical I see Jaden folks so I've got a slide for my mistakes that you all are here in the room here so I've got my boss in here I see so subs other contractors end-users for getting developers or any building owners okay well I thought I right but they don't do this but I really felt like I need to tell the pan estimating because they're talking love estimating jokes out there kind of a bad like was just went oh man so superintendent project manager and an estimator and this isn't the same ground line in this beautiful point but what's up from the ground Bryant it turns perfectly sideways the problem isn't that bucks out there at 850 900 yards and the superintendent said I normally wouldn't take shot like this good with distance but this is the beautiful taupe I give it a shot so he squeezes off the ground travel just a little bit to the left this is so the project manager says I'll give it a try ah perfume I'm gonna take that ass so the takes his shot didn't laugh woman is more visible Pizza Frank an estimator but that smoothly no sarcasm in his voice goes great shootin guys I hope it's going to be bad I wanted alright so I tell my folks that there's three things to remember and brief instruction that will help you be fairly successful throughout the lifecycle approaches no Smurfette niversity there are exceptions to that rule but for the most part did not get an Oscar for the members being able to communicate what changes as the design evolves so that she can be a better partner to not only your design team the tyrannous as well and have some dollars in there for something even if it's wrong and a lot of people give me a weird look when I tell them that and I say you know if you book $35 it's very hard for carbon interests and the owner in the designer and even they end up with you know it's very our carpet you only have to overcome a $5 fee if you forgot perfect yet but we're kind of $40 so along those lines I don't know what everybody in the room is familiar with all the phases of design if you're just familiar with that in phase we are bidding on construction up that's if you're familiar with this but I thought I'd walk back through this a little bit a typical design phase goes something like this there's a schematic design where there's a little up pushing and pulling on the design of the building itself project square footages aren't set in place 100% yet very few construction materials have been selected most of the time is schematic you have no drawings on your MEP systems or structural systems if you're lucky if you got a good design team you'll get emeritus along with that but a lot of times with schematic you're left with a floor lamp Menken exterior elevation or two and totally excitement that allowables of a schematic or conceptual estimator to go in and work and try to try to read several folks as minds on how this design seen at all and all kind of get into that later because there's several other stakeholders involved in the design of this process a design development if you're have a good design team I like to say that those drawings are if you work in construction you might flip through a sense of design about the drawings and not realize that the drugs weren't done as most of the time your square footage is said invasion walls are set in place you have very detailed information about your nav systems and your structural systems and the only thing that's left from design development to construction documents are the details that tell the craftsman output that working place or a detective not but that working place so then that leaves this great area out here before schematic we call conceptually it says the West Main which is just a fancy term for budgeting really probably an architect about with it so you kind of have this is anybody ever been discarded out of the blue whether you're a subcontractor and just ask for hate colleges XYZ going for it and there's no other information pretty much different you know pretty much everybody in the room that happens off and writing and so it's kind of like this the chicken and the egg where's another Collison says I want to build a new building around us has got a customer say well how big of a building what kind of building and what kind of materials you use I don't know that's why I'm asking you I can't tell you how much gonna cost way of knowing that so you get this you get this kind of never-ending cycle of questions so somebody's got to make a decision hopefully the estimator does and that's where communication starts great the life cycle of the design things is usually about six to eight months depending on the project typical projects basis anyway about six things so if you don't know if you've been asked to provide a preliminary budget or if it's socialist you don't know what the building size is you don't know what the building materials are going to be hopefully you do Senate building sizes you're talking through your client when they ask you for any budget and you know that the design is not going to be done in six to eight months how in the world can you be expected to get that price accurately almost kind of like all boys sitting there going a little bit to the left a little bit to the right as long as you get close you're going to be have a pretty good budget at the end so we really missed communicate all the time it's not just in design it's not just in construction it's not just in estimating it's in literally everyday life so you know the folks that the keynote address I don't have already see yeah cuz everybody maybe see here's know so oddly enough my sister-in-law works with it she's their operations manager and my wife's got an older sister and this particular sisters younger than her and their older sisters older by a few years and had kitchen and so I've got a nephew that's might older as long as other deserts and when he got married I think it's two years ago my sister-in-law amber she said that she was going to help with the venue for his reception actors but my brother also my first announcer and so pigment he's a law enforcement officer even gets good pricing environment so my sister-in-law Oh would you please go down and reserve parkas all for your nephews essentially he said it's so so she went ahead and put all the advice together put the address where the recipients will be sent amounts all of our friends thing and they were at my house sitting around the fire pit by night having a few though beverages and we thought talking about the wedding and the reception and I said not anymore they were supposed to be on Saturday night and my sister-in-law said the firemen saw me and Lisa and my brother all said no and she said we talked about he said it was booked I told you then she said you sent me a text message that said the department's Hall was booked he said yeah it was but we've been in heaven that night so they both said the exact same thing it was the exact same thing but they were both had brahmana what the other were men and that happens to us even an estimate so he would I went he was in trouble Amanda invite all that a ride that we do and then we also have to find a new place that accepted so that was immense no different than what happens whenever we hit a budget wrong in construction so is anybody been through the project management institute and talked about this formula for the minds of the communication channels they buy than that I had yep okay I'm sorry I so I have not been through that course of the project management I try to avoid project management says I did it for a good portion of my career I try to avoid that like playing these days but they talk about a formula where you get too many people that are communicating with each other and then communication actually breaks that and so the formula is n times n minus 1 divided by 2 where n is the number of stakeholders [Music] so actually what happens with that formula is if you have four stakeholders there's actually six different lines of communication they go this guy can communicate with Vista this guy can communicate with this Emily this young lady can communicate with this person these two these two can have a side conversation and pretty soon nobody knows exactly what's going on it's like whispering in one person's ear and they have to whisper the next person there you go I don't know by the time he gets back it was a different story all right let's to us every single inning I believe that this directly reflects what happens in design as a project management communication example that I think that's what yes let's see I see here an electrical contractor right how many people affect the price of that light fixture would it be correct to say that the owner affects the light mixture the architect the engineer and maybe an interior designer everybody agree with that oh yeah we're going to get them in here in a minute we're not done having a building inspector maybe we're not talking about the beautiful Channel there in a hanging above us maybe we're talking about an exit sign or the still a light fixture one two three four or five people and what happens most of the time our exceptional what happens when those final construction documents are met how many manufactures did they easily put on line fixers hitting or carving the schedule or a room finish or a rooftop unit schedule three that's just say three or he won't yeah so important work with the minimum three for this one right okay so how does that material get to that end user of those subcontractor how many people have designated in the electrical world to be true with several other orbits but he usually have the pakery manufacturer's rep who sells hits prices and supplies and the supply house who gives the pricing to the electrical contractor times three for everybody so manufacturer manufacturer manufacturer supply house supply house White House electrical contact your electrical contact your electrical contractor one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen people in a minimum I'd get three of those guys too and the shipping company goes on and on and on okay so at any given time during the year or the time these guys won't got different desires about our overheads and their operating expenses these change don't think they don't fit the same price every day the same markup every day you know you guys don't put the same price on a project with your your hand power is full and you don't need more work and you look at this influence starts immediately eject that price up and then it takes on top of that it takes six to eight months to design so you have to be able to articulate back to your designers and your owners what you had in there that they you think that right armor and differently when that changes and you're cold though that's people why it changed you have to be able to communicate to that to do to them and you have to be able to let your design partners and your owners and understand this process because they help do construction every day so they're just not going to get it that's going to cause a lot of hurt feelings it's gonna put you in a lot of uncomfortable situations but unfortunately I've been in a moment so I was thinking about putting this powerpoint together and I actually went thank what he meant so the first example of this and I can think of before I work for an apple sits back whenever I was an electrical contractor think that I was bidding to run Bert's company at the time it was a design build and it was master dies her version of design building where all you get is a floor plan and then the electrical contractors and mechanical contractors and the plumbers have to come up with a design and the general contractors go with the guy who's the cheapest even though they don't have a clue to what he designed and if it's a good design but that's how it worked and so I did and there was a memo and on the margin open an office area where all the cubicles where it said industrial indirect lighting now I was fresh out of the field in my electrical career I had just started project management and estimating and I'll be honest with you I was so green that this I didn't know it indirectly so and that's my awesome what is indirect lighting me he said well slacks that's shiny kind of shine up about direct down the floor why didn't you Nina Kate's my boss and I was asking about indirectly for asthma that's it I just said assessing what's what's indirect lighting for me well we don't look foolish in front of her bosses right so I didn't give him the full story I didn't communicate that well so at the end of the day here's what the client one client wanted this his nice big cubicle office when he said and that's grown-up lighting something of a futuristic and cool and you know I know because I got to be low I got to be the low bidder I press this and I said well hang it like this I think that went over but you know what happened was the general contractor took my number you got the project he does he's got the low electric remember I was a little bitter it was like I got a slide out of out of order - here we go this was that about I was a little bit I was under contract and I had to communicated effectively with my boss and I hadn't communicated effectively to the folks that I had been to and now I go not only myself in trouble but I got a few other people trouble as well because this was a fight to get through this and we didn't lose money on the job but we didn't make a dime job because of this we have intent compromising them with a different light fixture because there was no way that they were going with this in their new office in the middle of they weren't happening yet there really wasn't anything on their contract documents to type in anything else for communication okay my first president they've examples I think community would change now you know I don't know what happened with my boss at the time I don't know he assumed because I had several years in estimating already as a subcontractor that I automatically do this or if he was just busy and head of the things going on where he was just statistic wanted to see me you know struggle but he didn't tell me to be able to communicate what changed in an estimate and unfortunately he had ran the schematic estimate for a particular project and passed it off to me at design development so I finished up my first ever design development estimate and I'm so happy with myself because I've only been an electrical contractor for ten years and now I'm estimating entire building so I just finished my first PD estimate and we're over budget and I'm gonna go in there and I'm going to tell those architects that they're orbital they bring this project already if they don't you and so I walked into my meeting with my intimate with the in front of the owner and in front of the architects and I threw it down on the table um I said we're over but we've got a cat scope and they said we'll wait a minute when your boss gave us the schematic estimate we were on budget so and we haven't asked for anything different from the architects we didn't ask them to change anything or increase building sizes or nothing why are we over budget and I had nothing I had absolutely no I said there I'm across from the table from him and I didn't know what to say at all I felt about that talking instead of the guy that was going to set the architects straight i absolutely failed at my job he's laughing not on his head have you been there - or were you gonna sleep has anybody else ever been in that situation and so what you're saying is just okay I want to think about that I'm gonna start I'm showing you some things that greatly affected budget to the tune of a lot of hours almost delayed projects have some pretty unhappy clients and Waveland in provide you in my business if I could create under budget for all my clients it would be much easier for me the reality is is almost nine times out of ten I'm given a project that already has a budget that somebody else created so I have to try to recreate that number because I don't like we're gonna start with numbers and for that reason I came to get people things changed so I was working with an architectural firm and I would go about a public work so I'm not going to talk about names of architectural firms I'm not gonna talk about names of my clients because I think this is going on YouTube later today and I had worked with an architect of another job several other jobs and we were always repricing different levels of renovation like renovation the innovation and wasn't the deal about you did the same thing over and over again expecting something different to happen is insanity I decided that I was actually going to create basically an assembly of what these renovations are and my estimated software so that all I had to do is just put the skirt filler in and it kicks out my my investment for any same time I get lean so I work with the architect and I said in your architectural world help me understand what you guys mean when you say light renovation and medium renovation and she I went home I worked out scopes and it was greatness I had her input at my input on pricing and the particular job that we did that exercise on we didn't get I think the voters that failed past the comments were schooled so he didn't get it but another opportunity came up and she was the architect hired before this was their take on the job it wasn't up to her firm the owner asked her to sit in their preliminary budget for the president during their master planning process and thankfully she called me up and she said Preston I got another project we're going to have very very similar scope work last one that we work on I'm going to have different levels of renovation can I use those numbers and I said sure and that's that's always said I didn't ask her if she was 100 percent certain that that was what they were going to do and when I got the job the description said right to medium renovation and right sizing of classrooms which was never discussed on with being the architect right-sizing classroom which means tearing out all of the walls because they're not big enough and completely redoing all of the best rooms in the entire school 250,000 square foot and oh by the way we're doing additions to the school too so the electrical and mechanical systems are no longer sufficient the Hamline and we've got to upgrade all of those as well I delivered the first budget to the owner and we were over buzz a big time and he said what changed and I said well the level of renovation changed I said you said like to meet him meet him that whatever and it's a full heavy remodel and he said no he said that wasn't a narrative that you guys submitted on and you know there they said I called you and we talked about this which we didn't talk about about that so anyway I did it I got it I got to take one for the team I verified the architects members I went and I interviewed for the job I was awarded the job and now I'm the guys tell me oh no you can't afford what he wants but in this situation I was a little bit luckier because I wasn't able to communicate but even though they did find him I could still tell them what was going on in terms of dollars so the budget was built like this they took two hundred and fifty thousand square foot school inviting it in half and they said about half of the school's gonna be like animation $28.95 a square but then there has to be medium renovation $78 to send square foot now there's another way I said there's other things going on here but this is a renovation specifically budget for that portion of the work was thirteen million four hundred and twenty seven thousand dollars maybe renovation tearing out walls a mechanical to electrical runs us one hundred and seventy almost one hundred and seventy two thousand square foot for 250,000 square feet anybody active 42 million almost 43 million a single change of Acehnese sold to the voters who voted to increase their taxes to pay for this to have their classrooms right size they won after schematic design is thirty million dollars over button because we didn't communicate very well st. project we start working on how we're going to figure out our everybody another problem we we eventually did it I will tell you that the honor did come up with some other funding so we didn't get all the way there but we did eventually get it but once we got past that first we have a problem then another conversation same architect what you have in there for articles again this is a this is that the schematic level you don't have information on hard words on the drawings you're lucky to have a full correct for point they said it's really important to the teachers that they have good articles we've already talked to about this and I said I've got 190 classes [Music] - mark awards at 4 foot by 8 foot long in its classroom and right now I'm budgeting that at $19 a square foot installed installed is a keyword that the architects had adhered and the number two and the dimensions are key things that the architects did not hear apparently I was an effective communicator because I missed it you didn't because they went back to the teachers and they said yeah honey from herkimer's in 190 classrooms let's wrap the room all the way around all our words every teacher can write are wonderful all she wants to do kids come up and write on it and by the way we think that this really cool hard work we heard you say the number 19 dollars per foot and we found a wall talker magnetic marker board that there's all kinds of cool stuff and it's 1902 smurfin are but one thing in 771 owners 560 governor's over budget on one line item from Harbor courts I'm not making this stuff up these are real conversations I've had these are real situations I've been and also greatness to guys on what we're dealing with here this is on an ADA Center this is a school district that doesn't have a large budget they had to go out mask their taxpayers to pass it on to raise taxes to pay for this and I mean I gotta someone they can't have what they want these books don't do construction projects every day they're lucky if they one construction project and their career goes to the time especially when you give up not here within the metro area or the metro areas when we get out of the rural districts because that's kind of what this one was construction just doesn't happen I said earlier that there was three things that you needed to remember to be a good Creek instructor or good budgeter I said no square-foot members and I want anyone in the back [Music] I understand that it's an industry standard to use square foot numbers I get it I know that there's not a lot of architectural firms that have in-house estimators that's just not the nature of the beast I understand that a lot of times they go all the way through their design lifecycle and they take a project at the heart bid and the only information that ham is that lump sum number that they turn into obscure book cover I totally get it I understand that that's just how it's done it's how it's been done for a long time I almost always refuse to do it unless I'm very clear about it this is my burden that is usually based off the time so that comes up says I gotta know right now how much is this gonna cost and I don't have any time to set down the podesta there so I will give those members that way but very early so again this is another example I picked the school because that seems to be the one that we have the most budget problems with this is another example where an architect in a square foot number that I was given that a small rules the architect put together a an opinion of the probable cost to the owner and he give him a swing and he said and so this was a this was a larger project that was removing parts and pieces here that's a whole different story but this guy right here particularly was the main defender it was a new Early Childhood Center if we used to call in a garden the Early Childhood Center took little guys 200 mm smart 20,000 square foot and a probable cost range of $185 to $200 a square leg now this project is not around here globally so we're asked to respond to of a request for qualifications and a request for pricing glitch request pricing was just limited to our general conditions and our feats that had nothing to do with the actual project cuffs so we were asked to respond to this be in the budget that were pretty calm guy I immediately red flag this and I said I last thing I built that was $200 a square foot was a square pre-engineered metal gymnasium building the construction process that we're seeing her there there are over $10 square foot so I'm concerned about the state of our equipment and I thought to myself whoa I don't work in that market maybe it's a different market than the folks that are out there along i-70 out there western Kansas those are the numbers that I'm used to see and I'm used to seeing the numbers here in a mobile Kansas City market but I've never really worked down there reporting well that whole sense of their offices this is down in southern Missouri and so I called the guy from our Rogers on circuit so he's my counter I'm not saying that our own guys is this going to know some of our people and then oh by the way before I get to that I want to tell you that they actually published this to the voters to I mean actually it was actually in their bond language instead of dissimilar without that Center they actually said that it was 20,000 square foot but the press tank of four million dollars in the middle of their entire budget they called that by force so I hope my buddy in Arkansas and I said that I build an early childhood center in southern Missouri for $10 per foot and he said yeah all day long no I only imagined that maybe this is what she was thinking about that's what I'm sorry if there's anybody from Arkansas where it has to happen so I don't mean I like those guys and he taught me all day long and we talked that there on the phone and he said it's probably adequate if you're going through different subcontractor market than what you normally see and again like I said our experience in this market was minimal never worked down there before and so we went to the interview and in the middle of the interview of the architect looked at me and she said what do you think of our budget well I'm not going to tell them that I think their budget is screwed up the middle of an interview because that's pretty much gonna guarantee that I'm not going to get right so I said you know I think it's tight but I said I think we can work with it so I think it's doable I'm really on the spot I know them so we kind of started envision it in their eyes no no concept printer it's just 20,000 square foot and so I'm thinking maybe if we've got a you know a rectangular shaped building with a little bit rough and you know maybe like residential deal here in some Madsen maybe we can get this into another Smurf it already got even a mistake in our heart and then when the bomb was approved I saw her first rendering and near the top that's in whoops and so being my team starting our first disco and our very first Testament we actually have numbers are but I didn't know that we were in North with $360 and we delivered that as a society what did you get me $200 this particular bike and unfortunately they didn't know either I didn't know this is one last thing that we built those two notes perfect warehouse as it same thing squared with nothing in it that's it there's no interior walls as a square box this is a rectangular building that actually curves in a couple of places and so we went to the first budget review and it became a very very caustic environment because the architects didn't agree with us I said we know we don't agree with that we think your estimate is incorrect and accurate and the owner didn't know who and the owner has again well what changed you came to the interview by architects at the buyer I take why are not honest he do all right they asked you in the interview what you thought of our budget if you said it was okay that could tell me that that movement for to hundreds of square foot to over 350 dollars Burfoot what changed and I couldn't tell me is there another square foot was based off of it was what apparently it was based off of a square warehouse which is nothing like look at the definition of an urban childhood set all the way tell me what without cost they are protected and agreed the other didn't know wouldn't believe they actually made a comment about I'm afraid I'm going to lose my job over this I mean that's the kind of environment that I was even in and over a square foot that's why we don't this perfect number said we could possibly avoid unbid day the market responded and confirmed our numbers three hundred fifty dollars a square foot and that bit they somebody in the room with me I won't tell you if it was the design team or the owner said oh you guys you really missed this one and I can only mention that my face looked like my buddy Chris Rock here when they made that comment because I didn't tell they wanted historical 300 teller sort but but nobody wanna please all right I'm running the way ahead of scandal must be wrong everybody in the room I never rehearsed this and just put some slides together so what's your exact how long it's gonna be but you know I don't I think it's happy hour hang straight so programmed legends so there are construction dollars that are associated with just a constructio the building materials your general contractor's GCS of these overheads but then typically if you're building the building that's coming out of the ground the owners in had several other cost associated that they're gonna have to pay for it pay for and it's different from project project it may be the purchase of the land itself so they can build a big building on it's not my construction process purchase that man but the owners that have to pay for it they may want to furnish their new buildings I thought we give them a contract negotiation all that FF&E the fixtures furniture and equipment as typically the most contracts that's on the owner and not on that so they got to buy those things as well we recommend that they eat a little bit a contingency for themselves sometimes and then they also have to pay their design team if it's not the design-build situation if it's a you know an architect that there are correct they have to pay for those so I never used to track program budgets I was about the only thing I had to worry about stretching house until I had a project that nobody track program budget and the owner and never done a construction project four and didn't see all these other costs coming out 11 feet and unfortunately again going back to communication I never raised my hand I always knew what the budget was and instead I mean they literally said construction budget to a half million dollars for addition to many other sounds like a lot and tell your everybody and then there's not a lot of there's not much there's more opportunity for value engineering a larger project we get up in five minutes and there aren't a project for only a couple days there's just not as many opportunities for valuation so anyway I put the entire design phase play outputs of design development it's early legends schematic design it's a design development we're ready to go all right moving the construction documents take this baby up in and start building and I thought you know I'm just going to go ahead and ask if the owner has gotten his money in place for the total program button and so I asked him I said no this is the construction of as it I said we're going to go buy my mind I had a bunch of my items again not just the square foot of her and I said so you have secured the funding to pay for your architects and the paper all your fixtures and furniture and equipment and your new telephone system and all that stuff is not my contract right and it was a deer-in-the-headlight look the owner didn't have a clue that he was going to have that all of those other things that he had to buy or not my budget I don't know where the communication breakdown was and he didn't if he saw it in our contract on what we were contractually obligated and didn't understand it or if he saw the architects we're going to get it I don't know what it was but anyway massive redesign a two and a half million dollars and now I gotta go find 25 percent approximately 25 percent to pay any fees fixtures furniture equipment a phone system so we took it all the way back to concept again well I'd say right schematic we took it back to literally bubble neurons on a sheet of paper redesign and Mariam's shrinking square footage changing building materials and and very little information to work with and I'm pricing what I think again I mean so what we talked about how many people here affect the light picture so I'm going out numbers what they like ministers are going to cost they stop about information and then the other thing they did wrong this island didn't go so we went through the design that he's the design development we were so far over budget because we have communicated the program budget I let them go back to concept and then I'm going to do construction drawings without ever stopping and press that thing you know why ain't because escape we got to be in the our new building and the growth month was you know we don't have time to send like you SME yeah we got to go to lift early struggles so I don't know from concept to construction drawings without every chain there but and we took it up in and we have the exact same result to happen so that wasn't fun that wasn't fun to be a part of a theater and it was all just because I didn't ask the question I knew it I knew that the owner needed to have that I knew that the owner had none of their construction projects but this may be their only construction project and I didn't communicate the fire ones always even get equations for that several of the lessons learned myself that I didn't that didn't go to the sideshow I realized that I'm running very early or at 45 minute mark so a little bit of that question answers anything you guys think you guys might know something about these projects that I can't share with you Rick said I can't I don't really feel like she remains an architectural furniture so next time you get a phone call and somebody s hey how much is this thing gonna cost and don't make any other information try to remember some of the things that I have messed up go about your answer differently all right no other question is sir so you mentioned that you did electrical for 11 years yes right s you tell me a little bit contractor CMS a subcontractor cos I've just seen the ones getting so so dirty ask what's the difference between in front of some contracting side they go into the general contracting say they both have their advantages and disadvantages what I like about the general American side and maybe this is just me personally because I like I said I felt like I've got a little stale with electrical contracting is I just did learn a lot more about my other stuff you know I didn't used to know about crickets on earth work even tonight whenever I came over this about that crickets or things on the earth the water and hydration so it's just a whole new opportunity that to learn a lot more information I will say though that coming as a former subcontractor it's given me some good perspective to the arguments of that year at the coffee pot with with my guys but animals guys talking about the how the subcontractors did this on the top side and just infuriated them Michael hold up guys can tell me why they did that you know so I've been able to bring a little bit of value that they will apparently an estimate you know I might think and don't get me wrong there's there's great general contractors out there and there's bad general contractors it's the same thing with subs but I also understand from a general contractor side that says that don't perform well and the tailspin that that sends us in from from a general contractor one of you and again most of those things are just once again communication didn't understand the schedule didn't understand what was expected out that didn't read the drawings well enough and bid but they wanted to bid that's a that's one thing that I've experienced as well