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[Music] this is debt-free and 30 where every week we take 30 minutes and get practical advice from industry experts of a personal finance in living debt-free here's your host Doug hoist when I have had my class on this podcast if I want to get them all fired up I mentioned the type of debt that is his pet peeve payday loans well today I've got Scott Theriot on the podcast so I'll pull the same stunt with him and mention his debt pet peeve yeah you guessed it he locks so let's see how good a job I can do getting Scott all wound up Scott is the manager of consumer insolvency here at hose michaelis and he is frequently quoted in the media often about helix so Scott welcome back to debt free and 30 ready to talk he locks Thank You Doug I am yes well so let's start with the obvious question then what is a HELOC right great question so he lock has a home equity line of credit and a lot of people have them okay so what does that mean that what what are the attributes of a home I mean a line of credit I know what that is I go to the bank and they give me money and I can borrow whenever I want what's the difference between line of credit is think about the term it's home equity so it is you're using your borrowing against the equity in your home so you've got room between your mortgage and the value of your house so you've got equity thanks happy to lend you based on that so it's secured to your house that's secured by you know the physical asset that is your home so if you don't pay just like with your mortgage that's the asset that's under scrutiny by the bank there's no amortization period with HELOC so it's just here you go and unlike your mortgage which is laid out for you for the next you know 25 years sort of in terms of how you know how much it's gonna be paid down and the payments and all that stuff there's none of that with a HELOC also and that's what you mean by no amortization periods so a typical mortgage there's a 25-year amortization period paid off so I know that in 25 years if I make all my payments it's done right whereas with a HELOC so what am i paying in a HELOC that interest only mostly interest only okay so and I think the I think the latest figure in Canada is 25 or 30 percent of HELOC borrowers are paying interest only so I borrow $10,000 the interest is x-number dollars this month I pay that I still owe $10,000 principal's going home and I could be paying my interest for years and years and years and still owe the same amount right and I think the average borrowed amount of a HELOC in Canada is 68 or 70 thousand and the average approved is about a hundred and sixty eight 170 thousand so Wow awful lot of runway as they say so that all sounds fantastic too it does so great you know it's secured by my house so the person who's lending me the money the bank has very little risk because unless the real estate market totally collapses they can always get paid so the interest rate is typically very low I'm way lower than a credit card interest rate and I'm getting I'm paying a lower interest rate so the bank has no risk I'm paying a low interest rate this is fantastic I guess the show's over this is the greatest thing ever and I cannot envision any possible downside to this scenario no possible and I think that's probably exactly the sales speech that people get pretty much dug is that this is the rate so that and that and that the way you said it is probably exactly why there are so many he locks I wouldn't out in the Canadian marketplace well can you think of any possible downside to this fairy tale that I can just told you number one is they float with the interest rate so as you know interest rates have gone up five times in the last couple of years they could be going up again there are some reports saying no but you have to probably if you're a prudent borrower or you would have to expect that they would because on a balance of seventy thousand that's not insignificant for a rate hike or especially multiple rate hikes so if you have three four five rate hikes on 70 thousand or more that's going to be a significant hit to your pocket on your interest payments yeah if interest rates go up by a quarter a point I got to pay an extra twenty bucks well who cares but if that happens as you say it's happened by five times and we're recording this at the end of January 2019 so if you are watching this in the future you know internet world then perhaps they've gone up more than that but five times twenty bucks in my example that's a hundred bucks right again doesn't seem like a big number but that's a hundred bucks every month now you're paying twelve hundred bucks extra a year all your other debts have also gone up and become significant the other the other factor in that as we know from our business is that homeowners tend to have a lot more unsecured debt than renters about twenty thirty thousand more so if you have a home equity line of credit that's gone up a hundred bucks in those five rises you probably also have two or three other lines of credit that are unsecured those are also going up yeah and that's a very throw it all together that's so here's your hundred for the HELOC probably another hundred for the other three or four lines of credit now it's two hundred so you know and I think there are studies showing that as there aren't I'm not sure exactly there statistical validity but a lot of Canadians are close to the edge everybody so 200 bucks to me that's significant as a monthly expense that you didn't expect to have yeah and I your point is a very valid one because we noticed this when we do our hoist michaelis no debt or bankruptcy study that you're right somebody who owns a house and has a mortgage also has more unsecured debt they've got more credit card debt and that's partly because they're a better risk to the bank where you own a house so you're not going anywhere so you end up having more of that higher interest rate debt - so okay so downsides to Hilux number one they can increase their interest rates anytime because your typical HELOC is a floating rate so every time the Bank of Canada raise rates there's a very good chance that your rate is going up what are the other problems then what are the other risks are the other risks involved with Hilux is there really are no there are no limits to what the bank can do in terms of changing the rules they they can call them it's a it's a fully callable loan now you know is that gonna happen in a widespread you know housing market you know scenario probably not but I think the point is you wouldn't want that in your mortgage photographer I mean any anybody sane would at least listen they know whether their mortgage is fixed or variable okay that's great that's and that's all but all I can handle in my head but what if there were no other rules on your mortgage okay so here is it here's 700,000 mr. hallease paid over 25 years but we might just change this along the way at any point and you can't do anything about that and so what kind of rules could get change then so it's I mean the interest rate is the most obvious one but you're right they could decide that yeah we don't want you to have this this HELOC anymore and we've seen that a lot with unsecured lines of credit yes which are not helix they're not secured by your house but we've I mean you and I can both tell lots of stories about that client who was paying 5% a year ago and now it's 10% right and it's not because the interest rates have gone up it's because the bank is it oh you look like a higher risk you used to be we'd like to squeeze you a bit maybe you'll jump off and go that's the hidden monster and this is the credit cycle is turning so we had a good run okay for you know we had emergency interest rates for almost a decade because they just left them low and so everybody got used to having you know almost virtually zero percent interest on everything and we went on a debt binge as consumers and so now you and I see this more as frontline people so I think it maybe is more apparent to the work that we do you know for at least a year or so now the banks have been behaving differently in terms of how they vote on proposals which is a really good canary in a coal mine for for us to see okay well you know the big five banks and the other you know the next secondary level of lenders have all done whatever they want over the years in terms of voting our proposal so some of them are hard-asses some of them are easy to deal with in proposals and we've seen in the last 12 to 18 months especially the last six you know that's starting to change so the banks are getting they're getting more nervous this is normal in this type of so change in what way like voting voting down proposals counter offering really hard counter offers you know as someone who is offering their creditors or percentage settlement that we got accustomed to seeing as being accepted now the banks are going you know what we'd like a little more than that so then of course we go okay so now and if that happens for a number of months it's a trend yeah so that is happening and so when you think about helix and the fact that the banks can kind of pull whatever levers they want I don't think they're gonna as I said go call them all that'd be suicide but I think what they'll do is they'll make little tweaks along the way that hurt you a little bit it's like your term death by a thousand cuts and so if you're exposed in that manner as a consumer while you know do you want to be at the whim of a bank that's nervous well and so your HELOC might be set up that you're paying interest only there's no reason the bank can't say oh you know what we've changed the terms now you have to pay one percent of the balance each month plus interest they can do that any day don't want anything they want it's completely it almost come up with almost anything they'd that a bank could tweak if they're getting nervous so they're probably to go after a certain type of lender first so because they get their categories their borrower yeah this this type of borrower that's really bad the other ones we're gonna leave them alone for a while well and most banks and again people maybe don't realize this do a soft hit on all their their customers so every quarter let's say and I know one bank in particular definitely does this because the VP told me they will they will do a credit check it's a soft hit so it doesn't show up you don't actually know it's been done it doesn't affect your credit score or anything but if they see that oh look at the trend you've got a bunch of other debt your credit card balances are going up we're getting a little more nervous as you just said so this is the perfect opportunity for us to say you know what even though the Bank of Canada raised interest rates a quarter of a point we're gonna raise your he lakh interest rate half a point they don't have for a full point you can do it they can do whatever they want so okay so we've talked about the risks to me the borrower but hey look why should we worry it's guaranteed by my house that's the whole point of a HELOC everything's good don't worry about it right and what if hosts prices draw it could never happen no never happens so if if they did in the in that could never happen scenario and you end up underwater so now your hosts underwater meaning your house is worth less than you owe on it so for everybody that bought in 2017 in a certain area who were just right up to here with in terms of loan debt value for those of you who aren't watching on youtube he did the sign where you're right up to here right after my gym here that was that the chin signs and radio you have to have to watch this on so but you know they those people if even if the markets down 10% in a lot of places is down more than that you're underwater that doesn't mean anything okay it just anything more than the fact that your house is worth less than your you owe you don't have to leave you don't get the bank isn't gonna come after you you keep making your mortgage payments everybody's happy but it makes a number of people again nervous wow I can't sell your house and get out even no and this is something that you can't even pay the cost no if you sell it right and this whole word underwater is a word we haven't said for the last ten years because house prices since around I don't know 2009 2010 have been increasing and we're talking primarily about Ontario but I think you know anywhere in North America is pretty much the same thing there may be some pockets like you know Fort McMurray got hammered a few years ago but in general house prices been going up so it didn't really matter how much I borrowed it didn't matter if I borrowed ninety five percent of the value of the house next week the house would be worth more so I'd be building building equity but since the market peaked around May of 2017 I guess and has been falling ever since and you're right in in downtown Toronto which is where we're recording this right now in our office at a young and King the condo market is still strong yes it hasn't really mean it's still growing and the prices are still going up but you go to places like Iowa Richmond Hill you know west of Toronto single-family detached homes there are some areas where we're getting reports of prices dropping 20% and so if you paid a million bucks and and you know financed it right to the hilt right nine hundred fifty thousand dollars in mortgages and your house is now worth eight hundred and you sell it and have to pay real estate commissions you are as you say underwater by potentially a couple of hundred thousand dollars area now if I have a mortgage that is you know eighty percent loan to value okay if the price goes down twenty percent I guess that puts me back to even but he locks as you explained it are on top of a mortgage and that's where the huge risk potentially comes in then right I mean if you if you had a mortgage of seven hundred and and your host was worth a million and you borrowed a hundred he likely now you get eight hundred so now it's again if it went down twenty you now you're flat again so if you if you went to sell your house you'd be underwater because being flat and selling your host with the costs of selling a house now you're now you're underwater by that margin again right so do you think we have a false sense of security then because wow house prices okay maybe they go down a little bit but you know it'll all be good and if I don't sell my house doesn't really matter and I shouldn't worry about it I I do because let's put it in terms of unsecured debt so if if your bank if you had $30,000 in unsecured debt credit cards line of credit your bank came to you and said you know what we're having a banner year how would you like another 70,000 and but we won't give it to you at a credit card rate of 18% we'll give it to you you know five or something would you take it sure it's a great deal great that's all you probably wouldn't touch it because it's unsecured the the the where the HELOC risk comes in I think and this is kind of in sip insipid it's it's it's your house so therefore it's it's it's great it's safe you're gonna live in it forever and so if I borrow against it so what I mean I got my whole life to pay this off and and again translating that balance that average seventy thousand into another type of debt you probably wouldn't there's no way first of all the bank wouldn't offer that yeah but in HELOC they're happy to because it's your host so your point is if I have 50,000 or 70,000 and credit card debt I'm freaking out yeah or additional or additional right but if I have a $70,000 HELOC yeah I'm not worried because the interest rates lower but even so it's guaranteed by my house so everything's gonna be fun some of this is like the collective psyche of Canada you know the house is the you know that's the ultimate the ultimate goal in life is the the house ownership thing we're still in that I think you know I you I thought that I thought that mindset would break but since housing prices went crazy didn't I talk about that in my book somewhere I'm pretty sure I did here and how did that staff find its way there I don't know I don't know how they managed to get in the camera shot here that's amazi
g somebody must have set it up the way yeah myth number 13 a house is a great investment myth number 14 owning a house gives you stability myth number 15 them bigger the mortgage the better so you're right real estate is a big thing for for us as Canadians and I assume that's why the bank's love it so according to my notes here banks have lent out billions of dollars in helix something like two hundred and thirty billion dollars that's that's a really big number why is and but the interest rates are low right so why do the banks like them so much I mean you think they would like credit cards more because the interest rates are higher yeah because of all the things that come with it I think so first of all it's secured so for the bank's nice low risk low res you know we can always take the house if we need to we don't want to be house owners but you know if worst case scenario we take the house and work we're pretty much made whole but the other thing is is that it gets it gets you more locked into this debt trap or cycle right it's they've got you that much more and as we said you know the average homeowner that we see in insolvency has thirty thousand dollars more in unsecured debt so all those trappings come come with this and the other thing is when banks lend they want to lend profitably right make sense after that you know the whole credit score system you know it's they want you as a client because they're gonna make money off you it's not they don't want you to be they don't want do a risk assessment on you so that you're safe they do a risk assessment on you so that you can make them tons of money on so that they're safe yeah right and so the other thing with the ATMs is is the ease of usage and this this is my probably my biggest pet peeve about them it is so easy to tap them and it's so easy to use them because they they just say here you go and they approved you for the 68000 or the whatever you don't have to keep going back to them so the barrier or those does the psychic barrier of getting up going to the bank sitting there in a suit and and begging for more money isn't there right you just here you go it's basically a cash ATM and that and at the bank really want that because you're gonna use that right yeah so you you're right to get a mortgage there's a bunch of stuff I got to do it yeah I got to apply I got to show my income a little bit yeah and you know do you qualify what's the appraised are gonna come in it boy I better talk to the appraiser and make sure you saw that I painted that wall over there and it's worth more once you qualify and and that's it there's your mortgage and you're paying it off for the next 25 years whereas with a line of credit once I'm approved it's there and you're right the the bank says hey why don't you just take it you don't need to use it great so I know it's sitting there well inevitably if I've got a pot of a hundred thousand dollars of available credits are sitting there and I'm cashflow tight like many Canadian everybody is so it's like you know what the the car transmission broke down why don't I just use it for that or why don't we put in a deck yep or a pool or something and my recollection is that's really how we got started in all this wasn't it it was the original intention of this and this may be going way back before they were called he locks but the idea was you use the equity in your home during good times to improve the home significantly enough not paint in the wall but like you know put it put a like a pro kitchen in or put you know like you said a deck or something that is really going to have attractive street curb appeal or interior appeal later on when you go to sell it because usually you can inflate the price much more than you then the renovation was if it's all done nicely and and then I think the bank's got onto the you know hey this is pretty good right and so people are using this for whatever do we care not really I mean defaults are almost Minister Minister you'll like I almost don't exist so you know what like anything else Bank sees something good they just start handing it out more and consumers who entered the era of you know low wage growth and and and and things getting more expensive especially in cities found themselves trapped and you want to live the lifestyle right so you know what you said that hundred grand is sitting there how tempting is that right well and if I have some money owing on my credit cards that are a high interest rate it's prudent financial management to say why don't I take 20,000 off my he log I pay off my credit card I'm exchanging a 20% interest rate for a 5% interest rate that's actually good sound financial management isn't it it's great except you still owe the debt over time and I and I think instead of paying that debt down you've just shifted it right so yes it's lower interest that's that is a good move technically and mathematically but I think it shows that people are looking at their their unsecured debt and going okay instead of paying that down I'm just gonna I'm gonna pay it with this but that's not paying it down particularly if it's an interest-only HELOC where you're definitely not paying it down exactly and and as you already alluded to that's great but we know that homeowners tend to own they well they do it's a fact they owe more on their unsecured debt because of that exact same thing right I use my HELOC to pay off my credit cards but then I use my credit cards again so now I've got actually more debt than I started with yeah and part of this is the whole normalization of debt right is you know debt is the is the new normal thing and it's it's the whole thing of the debt zombie you know we're just a walking group of debt slaves and we don't care if it's on our credit card or if we shifted it over here it doesn't bother us much so why is it then that you know five times a week you and I talked to someone who says yeah I did get pre-approved for this I didn't ask for it the bank just said yeah here you go you're a good guy here here here it is is it as simple as well this is how they make money that's why they do it yeah I I think it might be like when you are when you're faced with you know the bank offering you a HELOC of seventy thousand probably what you should do is instead of just takin it I actually say okay I'm gonna think about that I mean I've counseled this before on he locks and in pieces I've written and just and on TV just saying just stop right so take this take the pressure out of the situation take the sales pressure out go home think about it I mean the bank's gonna make sure you they call you again they're gonna want to sell your stuff so what they do now so stress test yourself right so if I'm gonna get 70 grand and I'm gonna you know and eventually I have to pay that off in some way shape or form so maybe make yourself a worst case scenario if rates go up another five times not likely to happen maybe but it could right and not very well they they they've been really low for a very long time and yeah anybody older than 35 has seen this kind of thing happen before so stress test yourself and make sure that you know the worst-case scenario comes up you can make at least monthly payments if not contribution well and when you talk about stress testing you're talking about things like well if I lost my job what would I be able to do is Vince I think there's another element to that and that is what if you had to move so let's say you get a fantastic job offer in Alberta can't turn it down got a cantor it's fantastic you know way more but I've got a house now that I bought you know at X dollars and it's it's you know you know 20 percent less in the outer-rim in the outer-rim and so I can't sell it and get enough to pay off the mortgage and the HELOC so what do i do do I sell it yeah I mean you what you'd have to do is go to the bank and say okay I'm gonna sell my house and there's gonna be a two hundred thousand dollar shortfall I need you to give me a two hundred thousand dollar loan so I can move is the bank one gonna want to do that not that sounds pretty sketchy to me but these things happen happen all the time exam how many people do you know like of your circle of friends who've been living in the same house for 20 years none yeah no one I'm sorry and and I got a big circle of France so like and and I can tell you one and now in my parents generation it would have been everybody yep yeah yeah I mean the house I grew up in my parents were there for I don't know 20 years 30 years whatever it was it was it was a long period of time but now we're much more mobile absolutely and well and we all want to buy the McMansion right so we start out with our little condo and then we we get married and we buy the starter home and then we move up to the middle home and then we move out so whereas our parents kind of lived in the starter home their whole life they didn't there was no no need to do it so I think that's the other element of the stress test is what are the chances I will have yeah maybe I want to move maybe I just want to move and on the other Street so my kids are in a better school district owning a house as I said in the book does not necessarily give you stability it can actually give you give you an anchor so if you're offered a line of credit should you take it or not well I think you have to make that part of your you have to think of it like like your mortgage so let me let me give an example that's a bit out of the blue but I thought it up this morning on the train so average HELOC 70,000 so people don't think much of that they just kind of go ok sure that's great this overtime and it's not gonna bother me but put yourself back in the scenario of when you bought your house if you bought in the last few years it was more likely a bidding war it was in the city so what if you were all 5 or 10 of you in there were working with your agent trying to get that you know removing this condition and that and then then it goes up another five we all gotta go up five thousand and our offers if somebody came in and did a bully offer of seventy thousand more than you were offering never offered bully offers just way higher than you are offering it you were all in there battling at eight hundred thousand and some jerk came in and said I'll give you eight seventy and everybody said that's crazy I'm out well that seventy thousand is exactly the same as the seventy that you were offered by the bank in a HELOC it's just after the fact instead of at the front so you would have freaked out with the bully offer but no problems Bank offers you seventy thousand once you owe in the host hey no problem I'll take it and seventy thousand and seventy thousand seventy so whether you're paying extra normalization right yeah we people say seventy yeah yeah you don't say seventy thousand don't say the whole amount yeah oh that's good yeah the whole amount like 1.2 yeah 1 million two hundred thousand yeah it sounds different right yeah and so whether I pay 800 or 874 a house oh I'm not going that high but to tack an extra seventy on at the end on a HELOC I don't know problem yeah and it's the same seven it is the same 70 thousand in fact it's 70 thousand that's subject to interest rate rises yeah as if the seventy was when you bought you probably locked it in it whatever right yeah so you got much less risk so so I like that there's your practical advice tip for the day say the whole number don't say seventy say 70 times call but it is drawing perspectives early it's money so let me play devil's advocate here I can see why high interest credit card debt is a problem but why because it's high interest I mean I get it why then are low interest he locks a problem and I understand ok you know interest rates and everything but 70 thousand on a HELOC is a lot less of a worry than 70 thousand on credit cards right but I think I think you take the whole picture of the of the economy into account right so that's 70 thousand right plus your your eight we'll call it 800 thousand it's not a yeah and and then you have credit card debt of 30 40 50 in our case seventy thousand an average homeowner and you know we're in an economy where people are getting downsized its the gig economy where anybody under a certain age is working like two side jobs yes they're driving for uber and they're delivering food and it's such a precarious employment and income situation and we see this enjoy debtor we see this in our in our work with people that income is usually the issue everybody's living really close to the edge not everybody but there's a big chunk I think by theory is there's a significant chunk of Canadian Canadian society that is living very close to the edge in other words could you absorb an impact of any kind and impacts being divorced that's a huge one job loss but you have the flu in your off week for a lot of work for a week yeah I know that's a big so like you know and if you if the other studies show that no he's got any savings so there isn't a cushion there of cash well no that's why you get your heat lock yeah exactly exactly savings are he locks yeah right but so I think when you look at he locks are not a problem in and of themselves but you got to look at the whole thing you've got going on right because when I have people call me as recently as yesterday who are homeowners with he locks and second mortgages and all kinds of stuff they have a number of things going on in their lives right and so they've gotten to the place where they're at where it's taken time to tear all these little factors to come into play but its death by a thousand cuts again right so yes the he locks good idea make sure you can afford the thing if it changes make sure that you can afford all the other things in your life so in other words if you've got thirty thousand and credit card debt don't take the HELOC yeah not yet pay that down and then do it like you don't need to do that right now so it's wants and needs right Wow so let's finish this off then with your advice so you just gave a piece of advice that might still still think the best advice is say the phone number so we probably should have just ended the show right where everybody to me one point two million dollars say it like yes name in in Austin Powers it's a big number yeah so so but I I think the next point you just made is if you're gonna be getting a HELOC to pay off your credit cards okay I understand why that makes sense cancel the credit cards then or lower the limits on them or something because paying them off and then racking them up again wasn't really paying that's the other big takeaway from this one folks what Doug just said we usually see when people consolidate their debts the reason they come back in to see us again a year from now is because they didn't cancel their cards Yeah right so if you are going to tackle the debt before you take the HELOC which is what you should do cut the cards up because you I can't tell you the rate of recidivism on that stuff people if it's there that you're gonna use it again if if there was a twenty dollar bill sitting on the table one of us would pick it up yep cuz that's just how it is I don't think you'd beat me to it but it would be we'd probably rip it into as we as we went for it that's that's just the way it is so are there any other pieces of advice then that we we haven't hit on here that people need to be aware of well okay so if you are in the kind of scenario where you got all kinds of balls in the air like the people that are calling us sometimes you got a mortgage you got a maybe a second mortgage maybe he like you and your husband or you and your wife are both working jobs where you're not entirely like you're not gonna be there 30 years risk-free you just you know not a thing your job could change you could move you got a couple of kids so those kids are there factors they're big factors right because okay they're healthy right now maybe they won't be but without freaking people out look at your entire picture and say okay what are my big risks here in any one of these things right can I keep going here for even three months if anything happened right and it never hurts to talk to somebody because I mean how many people that come
o see us do it end up end up filing well certainly less than a half right so we talked to a whole bunch of people thousands of people who we just give them advice on what they should do about debt and stuff like there are some people who are coming yeah and we'll say you know what you've got a lot of equity in your house so if you're willing to cut up the cards then a HELOC maybe make sense for you pay them off and you don't need to be doing a proposal or going bankrupt and it costs nothing to to talk right so if you have a lot of debt you're not necessarily in trouble but it doesn't hurt just if you're stressed I would about it and if you're thinking about it like that just talk to somebody right because at least you'll know your rights you'll know what you can do what you should do what you shouldn't do because oftentimes it's it's don't make sure you don't do this or this because you have an even worse trouble yeah stress is an excellent indicator of whether you've got a problem so if I own a million dollar house and have a five hundred thousand dollar mortgage five hundred thousand is a huge number but I'm not really in that battle Rob because I can sell the house and get out of it if I don't own a house and I have five hundred thousand dollars in debt I'm probably toast unless my income is a million dollars later so I would be under a lot of stress in that situation that's a good indication I need to reach out for help Axl I think that's a great way to end it and that tip again folks say the whole number just in case you missed it and cut up your curves and cut up your card Scott thanks for being here - thank you Doug that's our show for today as always you can find a full transcript of today's show and links to everything we talked about in the show notes over at hoist com that's h o y es com I'll also put a link to Scotts Twitter account so you can follow what he's up to he likes to go off on Twitter threads about the people he's met with and what's happening so that's always entertaining and a reminder you can subscribe to the video version of debt free and thirty on YouTube so that when Scott gives the up to their chin symbol you can see it we're on camera absolutely and the audio version is also available on all major podcasting apps including iTunes and if you like the show I'm always thankful if you leave a review thanks for listening until next week I'm Doug Hoya's that was debt free in 30 [Music]
