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welcome to this video beyond politics part of a series treason and reason i think i've got the name right and we're on the second one talking to chidi and in case people don't know who i am i'm one of the founders of beyond politics britain's newest political party or anti-political party um and we're doing a little series about the state of play i suppose with interesting people who've got particular viewpoints which probably you're not going to hear that often i'm also the co-founder of extinction rebellion and i have been an organic farmer for a long time and i've been in london causing trouble now for about five years and we're going to talk about trouble quite a lot i think one way or another we're going to be talking about trouble because a lot of trouble going on so titty i mean introduce yourself so my name is chidi ot obihara i ran for parliament in 2017 with the green party but have since left i'd call myself an environmental activist um with a key interest actually in green finance environmental uh impact of big finance um [Music] i think that's it that's my summary introduction if i've got this right you've been in the finance world quite a long time and you're not overly impressed well it it like every other industry on the face of the planet certainly has ups and lows and because of where we are right now in the world's um sort of history i think the cracks in the way that global finance works are beginning to show um quite quite big cracks are beginning to show so yeah i think it's it's up for a lot of criticism so one of the most important things i've done recently is take part in an action against barclays a barclays bank and we it was a coalition of groups including xr um sunrise ergard um quite a few people were there and what we're trying to do was to highlight what's going on with one particular bank barclays who happen to be the biggest funder of fossil fuels in europe um they have uh several hundred million pounds invested in pre-existing pro in pre-existing projects actually billions of pounds invested in existing projects and they have a pipeline of projects to come and we've been trying to convince them to stop both the pipeline and to start to reveal honestly to both shareholders and other stakeholders what the carbon footprint of their customers as they exist are right now there's a format that's been introduced by mark carney the former bank of england governor called the tcfd and that tcfd format forces banks to disclose not only the carbon footprint that they have themselves but also the carbon footprints of their own customers in other words it shows the damage that they do when they fund certain types of companies and unsurprisingly barclays have not been forthcoming in following through with what are now about to become mandatory disclosure requirements so that that was the core of what we were arguing about we took a letter to the hq at um canary wharf and for a good 15 minutes half an hour it was incredible it was a sort of a very david and goliath thing to see where there were group of protesters and there was this massive multinational this monolith in front of us and cowering behind the front door with three security guards very strong men who were not threatened by us physically who refused to take a letter from us for a good 15 minutes because they were terrified terrified of what the content letter might be what the message we were delivering was what the legal consequences of that letter were and i think that that encapsulation that that david and goliath battle that that idea that you can join the little guy and speak truth to power is something i was very very happy i was involved in this is very interesting isn't it because we've got this enormous beyond description crisis which we've had for 30 years and it's like every year or even every month now we're all waking up even those of us who thought we'd woken up are sort of waking up and then you can see this in the this financial monolith sort of situation and you can see in those security guards you know if they were totally confident they're on the right side of history they would say yeah fine you know i'll take the letter but it's like everyone's sort of knows it's up that's the feeling i get i've talked to some people in the finance industry and it's a bit like it's a bit like it's like this enormous scandal there's an enormous lie isn't that and but these people are so intelligent that they don't feel they can get anywhere they don't feel they can they can move because they think they rule the universe as they say so you've been in this situation for a while haven't you you know you've been in the industry so tell us a bit more of an insider's view i mean what what is it what is the finance industry doing i mean we sort of all know it's vaguely destroying everything forever but how does that happen because i'm sometimes a little bit like yeah you know it's complicated isn't it it is complicated and i'm gonna try and do it in three ways the most obvious way is that for the vast majority of people who work in banking you're a small cog in in a small wheel in a massive machine and you do your part you work hard you pay your mortgage and that's it banking is not full of um uh legions of psychopaths who go into work every morning going i can't wait to rip down just a little bit more of the amazon rainforest that's not who bankers are that clerical administrative financial staff they do their jobs but above that is is a managerial class um who are a lot more aware i think of the uh second order consequences of what they do who they choose to finance the projects they choose to support and above that even further is a gigantic complex that represents decades of regulatory capture you know we live at a point in time where scores hundreds of thousands millions of people on this planet go to business school every year and they're told markets are efficient they do the right thing they allocate resources appropriately and it's an ideological basis because many of these business schools and these universities have historically been funded by bankers and robber barons who've come back and ex posts justified the way they've made their money as the optimal way to make money so you can end up with a situation where in 2013 only a few years ago his name is farmer um he published this amazing paper um i think in 1990 also called the efficient market hypothesis paper i'm not going to too much detail what the paper says is that markets are efficient you have three different forms of efficiency but they are generally speaking efficient and it's at the heart of this sort of neo neoliberal neoclassical interpretation of economics should be it talks about assets being allocated appropriately with the information that people have with a limitless number of competitors competing for the price with prices and information being available to everyone and almost all of those assumptions are false it's quite shocking isn't it you start off with a false perspective and somehow magically expect to get a good result at the end but the assumption we make in this in this movement of this giant machine called global finance and i think that we've seen it in crash after crash after crash and now we've seen it in the way the fossil fuel industry has worked so that so little of the damage that is done by fossil fuel industries are priced into the transactions that they're doing are priced into the way the banking services are provided to them so little of those services reflect the correct price the people should be people should be making really big demands people should ask farmer to give that nobel prize back it's complete hoax he doesn't deserve that nobel prize that's that that prize is based on a false theory that's failed humanity and that's the basis for which you get this cascade of blame in my opinion um because because you've got a massive phenomenon of political corruption that's that's right there's this little world which completely ignores the biggest thing in the real world i'm powerful 100 so i will get my way 100 i'd cast it even bigger than just the political world i'd say that one of the the terrible things that happened in academia and that led to business as we know it now is the separation of politics and economics everybody used to be taught political economy beforehand but you separate the two of them and you have this subject called economics which is supposed to be completely divorced from politics whereas we know it's absolutely linked and so when you get these blind spots and they enter into politics you get horrible results and mass denial everybody walking around going i didn't know markets weren't efficient i didn't know it was going to crash of course you know it's going to crash it always crashes it never finds the right price it never gets to work with bremen stays there for a long time we all know this but we we walk sleepwalk into this over and over and over again and unfortunately this is it this is the big one right this is the time when we spent over 100 years burning a fuel that's going to kill us we've never been able to price it properly and nobody in the market realized it until hypothetically it's it's too late we're up against something that is so enormous that is either all going to come down at once or never you know we can't just print pick you know pinprick you know take out little bits because it seems like it's as you say it's a massive interconnected thing and i'm saying that empirically it's not like i'm i'm being ideological when i say that it's not like got to bring down the system it's just like my observation of it is is it's a big complex system as we know it's got complex systems it's like you can chip away at it but it's really resilient and then but it gets to a certain point and it collapses that's those are the two phenomenons right so i want to talk about the green party right because you've been in the green party and i think the two things are connected in my mind which is for 30 years you know ever since i was 15 and 1980s there's been this narrative in environmentalism which is the world fundamentally okay but there's one or two things aren't going well and they might not be going well at all well but there's one or two things and they're called issues and it's like we're gonna deal with that issue we're going to deal with pollution in london we're going to deal with you know you know river ecology or something in devon and it's all wonderful and it's all very admirable but it's caught up on us over the last 30 years that there's some terrible terrible sort of denial which is what you've we've just been talking about which is you've got this massive thing which is just driving the whole thing forward and you know the bottom line is carbon emissions have gone up 60 since 1990 since the scientists said you know it's game over you carry on doing this stuff right i mean everything we've been saying in the last two years an extinction rebellion isn't new you know it's been there right i mean in some ways it was more it was more visceral in 1990 because they didn't have all the public relations people behind them so how does that relate to your experience in the green party and more generally with what you might call conventional environmentalism uh how's that panned out okay so that's a an interesting nest of questions um um i follow that thread of thought very well because i i did that i i got involved in conventional politics and joined the green party um because i felt the need was incredibly strong i think actually it's important for full disclosure to say that when i was at university um with friends of mine from boarding school i was a member of the young conservatives um i was young i was dumb i did bad things um and at that time i was there i was in anarchist when i was like yeah yeah but i've taken it back yeah i'm a respectable respectable middle-of-the-road chap as everyone knows i'll forgive you if you forgive me oh absolutely yeah yeah so so this is me at uni um you know this is sort of 80s post-thatcherism and everyone felt that markets worked really really well because they allocated resources put properly and everybody wanted to be part of that because growth was important and being progressive meant you were interested in growth primarily and uh you're king back against the welfare state because it overprotected um all these groups of people who didn't necessarily buy into the market economy which was the way forward that was that was that ideological context then my journey from that to here was the realization because of my background that not every company on the face of the planet assigns capital to its most productive means with no cost to anybody else you could start off with that ideological basis but practically speaking that isn't true so my family from the niger delta and miles away from my grandmother was born you can see giant gas flares that have been flaring for decades and shell is a multinational that does what multinationals do which is they find the place with the lowest costs and try and make the most profits they possibly can and the stakeholders local stakeholders tend to be completely ignored because the global stakeholders their shareholders apparently are primarily placated by massive profits and not anything else so my journey sort of swerves when i i think more roundly about the global context of my heritage and understanding that while i've been incredibly privileged and very very lucky and extremely grateful to a whole bunch of people the kindness of strangers has made my life incredible i've worked in banking i've worked in three different countries i am i repeat incredibly grateful to lots and lots of people this was not a journey that i went on out of a sense of hate or anger it was a journey that i went on because it was about discovery and about what the real meaning of progress is in my opinion the real meaning of progress is where you have a bigger and bigger circle of concerned stakeholders and you make everyone better off you lift everybody up um all these games zero-sum games that are played where we're told to other people and neglect their interest and focus on ours invariably end in mass failure as far as i'm concerned so the green party was a part of that journey for me that i thought could have been better um as a party i don't think it's a i don't think it's a stretch to say it lacks leadership and environmental issues um and it's a deliberate uh action unfortunately i would i attended lots of meetings at gpex which is the executive committee of the party as finance coordinator some of which had people try to talk about climate change and who were told not to talk about climate change they were told that it puts voters off and it was a dour and happy subject and i'll be blunt at the time and now i feel this very passionately if the green party cannot talk about climate change who can if they can't be champions for change in this fear what is their res on detroit what do they actually stand for so my journey in the green party starts with a realization that it lacks intellectual leadership massively but also internally the green party has such a challenging internal process such a challenging internal atmosphere but as finance coordinator i could tell you many a horror story about resources that are misallocated people who were not capable of doing a job that actually delivered results of a management structure where people weren't even encouraged to develop you know there were no there were no um assessments of people's performance there were no targets set for people to and you know for someone who's worked in lots of large organizations myself i found it impossible to understand how you manage a 2.5 million pound budget with so little accountability now what that does what this twin chaos of internal internal uh mismanagement and external lack of ambition does is it reduces the most important organ of political expression of environmentalism to total nothing i mean it really is it really is that bad um in london when i campaigned and i told people i stood for the green party people who i knew had foundational emotional attachments to environmentalism refused to vo e for the green party because they knew so much about the organization itself that it turned them off environmentalism and i can't think of a more tragic outcome yeah yeah well i should say in terms of full disclosure i i i think i actually was part of the green party again when i was like i think it was before my anarchist phase actually i was i think it was 17 or something like that but my best mate in uh the peace movement he was he was mad about the green party and went and i remember going oh my god this is amazing you know it was like wow you know a party that's standing up for everything that's really obviously matters yeah you know it's like yeah obviously we need to look after environment obviously we need the quality obviously you know and then over the years there's there's this realization that they're just saying the same message and we were on a call with some green party people last last night and i just sensed like nothing's changed in 40 years like the environmental movement has not moved and you know i think the environmental movement was great or it was because i was in it but i know i don't consider myself to be part of that because of this catastrophic failure and that's not a personal thing it's an observational thing um and i'm not you know i'm not overly bothered about its internal crap as you might say because loads of organizations have internal stuff but there's some there's a big picture here isn't that let's focus on the big big picture and you know we can come on to your african heritage and everything in a minute about it because i'm very interested in that the big picture is we're looking at billions of people starving to death right that's what we're looking at here this is not you know some little thing about rivers or cities it's it's the end of organized life and i've said in my life you know off and on studying history i've read about cambodia i've read about the congo i've read about germany i've read about the mongols you know history is a show of hell for a lot of people most of the time right so we're coming back into that how do you react to that i'm interested you know but particularly in terms of african heritage and you know no i might as well say it now like the bottom line here is thousands of millions of africans are due to starve i mean that's i was on i was with a scientist the other day an ipcc signed where it's called ipc scientist right 20 years in the trade you know 70 years old respectable gentleman you know from vancouver and i said to him so billions of people are going to starve and just like that pregnant pause and he went yes well we know where they're going to starve right so you know how how does that land you know how have you navigated that awfulness i'm with you so that those again that's quite a panoply of questions you've uh you've squeezed in there um you're absolutely right about the fact that the internal challenges of the green party are peripheral in the grand scheme of things but the thing that sticks in my crawl is the number of exceptionally good people in the green party because that resource those people and others outside it is what we need you know with that the change can happen and i think that that that internal wrangle bothers me because it stymies the efforts of amazingly good people who work incredibly hard who could make a big difference but whose voices just sort of vanish in the cacophony that follows um but moving on from that and trying to make legitimate political progress and understanding the global nature of the problem that we're in we are firmly in this because i'm a man of that age that that saw bob geldof do we are the world you know the yeah the ethiopian the ethiopian um the ethiopian droughts at the time and you know this is this is the 80s so the the sun newspaper was writing about these lazy people who couldn't farm hard enough to feed themselves why should we fund them if they can't work hard um and we now know with the benefit of hindsight that these were not lazy scrounging uber immigrants who were bad in any way this was the first tranche of climate change droughts we now know that yeah with hindsight we now know that and when you talk about the ipcc has warned us that we're heading for 1.5 we're heading for two heading for three waiting for four degrees people say well this is all hypothetical it may never happen and you know why we have to worry we have to worry because we know that these global averages don't tell us enough about the events that take us to this place and climate breakdown is climate breakdown so these global averages don't tell us we're going to wake up next summer and it'll be exactly one degree warmer than it was there before that's not what they tell us they tell us that over the next 10 20 years we will see plus you know 20 degrees and minus 18 degrees yeah the average is plus two that's what climate breakdown is the level of uncertainty the level of risk the level of damage that's involved is so colossal that we absolutely have to take it seriously but i'm going to borrow down even further to the last part of your question which is about the disparate and the asymmetric impact on people in global south because my family of course from the global south i know a lot of people from the global south we live on a planet where every region is interdependent um the prime ministers of vanuatu and tuvalu a range of other islands in meetings with scott morrison um in asia pacific were banging their eyes out grown men were weeping and begging australia to change its uh climate change policy because they could see today not tomorrow not in 2030 or 2050 their islands being swept away by rising seas we live on an island roger i mean if you if you have no empathy you can have self-interest and do this as well we live on an island but let's let's borrow down even further to the global south the guardian did this spectacular piece it's a graphic it's on my instagram um page where it shows a band of sort of plus or minus 20 or 30 degrees latitude around the equator which is a band that will be invariably turned mostly into desert at four degrees centigrade yeah it will be inhospitably hot to live but it'll be impossible to grow crops in those parts of the world this means a billion people two billion people starve or migrate we really kid ourselves if we think it's going to happen in this slow gradual controllable way where we can sit around and wait for bob geldof to do live eight so live aid eight or something because another tranche of people are now homeless more wars have broken up because of starvation more instability comes towards europe um and again if you can't do empathy and you can only do self-interest at this point at 43 centigrade all of southern europe is desert you know there are no more italian wines no wine no champagne i know i was talking to an italian newspaper the other day that's why i said to them i said italy's going to be desert yeah and of course you get that yeah and then they move on yeah [Music] this is the story of my life for the last two years it's like um i wish we could get to the point where we could be like that where we could tune out of the bad news but when the leading scientists in the world reach consensus when the un secretary general slews of heads of states you know massive intergovernmental groups when you're at cop 26 and you're still heading up towards 450 parts a billion of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere when you're in this situation that's like the analogy of course is the frog you know you're sort of getting boiled and you don't know you're dying but that is actually where we are and so being part of this political movement was incredibly important to me being disappointed by the green party was incredibly saddening for me because of the import because of the context but and this is the final bit that answers your question properly my grandmother died of asthma in the 1960s before i was born and the reason why she died of asthma was that the methane flares that shell had started near my grandmother's village some of them had gone out people being choked to death on methane and the nigerian government had nothing to say about these deaths i was worse than that because within 10 years of that nigerian government then proceeded to embark on a massive pogrom to kill as many people as they were there because they're being too noisy they wanted independence they didn't like the oil companies and and the solution was to create peace by decimating the place so my my background informs me that this battle is real this battle is broad this battle has consequences that we're experiencing now these consequences are going to get worse and it is incredibly costly to speak up you've been to jail i haven't been to jail this series we're working on i guess what we're trying to do is move things out of this old frame of well that's upsetting you know this sort of traditional white middle class english sort of we've got we've got a little bit of a problem over there you know we were just talking before weren't we about when people in this country go is two degrees and that's that's not so bad obviously they don't really understand the extremities which are going to destroy our economy and our children's livelihoods but there's also a little bit of a sort of well that's not us you know that's those people over in the global south and there's a sort of nasty racist if that's not too incorrect a way of putting it there's something nasty let's put it like that that you sense a sort of uh a grotesqueness i call it grotesque a grotesque inability to take your responsibilities seriously as an adult and as someone who supposed to have self-respect for their moral behavior it's not just like right-wing people i talk to this trade unionist you know when i was just starting off doing climate stuff and i said to him you do realize you know it's all you know and he said yeah yeah i know that and then he said yeah but i'll be back i'll be dead by then right i mean this was one of the main trade union activist you know in london so he's a cool guy and i think we're up against something here which is very dark very dark very human but also very dark and you know when i was talking to tim crossland the lawyer in the last you know video we were talking about treason and how how does that sit with you in terms of the seriousness of it given that fundamentally we're we're going to be roasting africa in every political system and this this is not something that comes to the foreign in in the mainstream novel system the key to justice is understanding balancing rights and responsibilities properly yeah and it's not new and it's certainly not news to be told that we live in an unjust world and one of the ways of showing it is that the powerful in this time in this age in this epoch in this place the powerful are not taking responsibility for their own actions whereas the power less are going to have to take responsibility for actions that are not theirs and they're not in their control and in my opinion there's no starker or more obvious an indication of what injustice is you know literally someone goes off somewhere does something walks off feeling very wealthy and someone else suffers catastrophic consequences as a result of what they've done that's unjust that is injustice having said that britain is a pivotal nation and i think that within the mask and the narrative of white fragility there is this lack of understanding that britain is very powerful britain is and has been a nation of consequence for the past 400 years and it's impossible to shift that in the next 200 years so people couldn't panic or they want to put this place in the world brexit china you know whatever it is but they cannot say that asking britain to take action on climate change will somehow destroy it it's a lie if they say that because it's actually the exact opposite the only way that britain and the other colonial powers get to maintain the rights that they've acquired to set uh some kind of example to be the voice of reason to actually social kind of leadership the only way that gets maintained is if britain and the rest of those powers act properly in the face of a global threat you know if you don't react if you if you stand up and say i'm in charge here and the house is on fire and then you're like it's good we're calm we sit here then some people will walk out of that house those who survive and the house will burn down and when it does guess what you're not in charge anymore you don't have those rights you can't you can't wield any kind of example for anyone to follow in fact you become a pariah you become the nation that destroyed the natural world and endangered the existence of life on the planet so the consequences for the liberal the liberal middle classes who think that doing nothing is an option the consequences for them are actually quite heavy far down the line what happens before that is what you've pointed out you've pointed out that the global south stuff is catastrophic catastrophic climate change you've pointed out that the levers of power that try to maintain power go through phases and violence is one of the phases they go through so for me anyway the conversation that you had with tim crossland was really interesting because the arc of having treason be an attack on the monarch to start with yeah and then watch it evolve all the way through to actually being um something you can do against society and the state so that you start off with using the law of treason only to protect the monarch and at the end you can use the law trees and actually to say this group this party this entity has you know has acted in a treasonous way towards the people of the state that was really interesting because at some point the the people who think of themselves the ruling classes of britain need to ask themselves where do they stand on this how will they be judged by this because they will be history will judge everyone and what do they do now so that they can actually look themselves in the mirror not just now but in whatever interpretation of the behavior comes comes up in future to say we acted we did something the scientists warned us we changed and changed doesn't need to be powered doesn't be painful change is progressive that's one of the things that saddens me the most about the way that green economics or green finance is is talked about you especially in the states you talk about do we create more jobs or do we have more green regulations it's complete rubbish the exact opposite more green regulations creates more jobs more green building creates more jobs you know having an economy where you rededicate building to only creating uh energy positive zero carbon homes creates thousands of jobs having an economy where you change the the basis of transport from fossil fuels electricity creates more jobs having an economy that says we're going to decarbonize this isn't a strategy that does this for us over the next five years as we decarbonize we have to change our entire manufacturing output outlook and the value chain that goes with it well i'm so sorry that's not gonna do itself it creates more jobs i have to sit here day after day and listen to bare-faced lies being told by people who are in power who want to preserve what they think is a sustainable privilege it isn't um and we don't have a party that says no i have a party that says actually the entire framework is wrong you went to a university that taught you the wrong thing markets aren't efficient you'd be regulated you were taught by people who wanted you to serve in their companies and make them more profit but that's not the way on detroit of life companies have a whole bunch of stakeholders and you should think about all of them and you're at this point you're at this precipice now where scientists are telling you this juggernaut this titanic that you're sailing in this direction is going to sink what do you do to change that and and believe it or not changing that might make the titanic a nicer better bigger ship exactly and i think this is like it this is where we've got to get beyond that really reductive nasty sort of material idea of the economy the economy is a moral eco omy as well it's a it's an economy of community it's a human community right and we need to reconnect like you were saying before about the separation between economics and politics it's the same as the separation between the economy and human well-being human well-being is rooted in community but i think it's rooting something deep in this community it's rooted in a common sense of morality of what it is to do be a decent person to look after yourself your family your community right this is a trans cultural thing isn't it the sense that i get is you know what's happened to the professional liberal classes and the ruling class or whatever you want to call them is they've they've been drawn into this satanic sort of death spiral of of just thinking about money just thinking about tomorrow but there's this other tradition you know i don't want to glamorize the uk just for the record right but there is a tradition in this country of saying there's a limit there's a limit on your willingness to facilitate and stand by why evil happens you know this country's done many many bad things and at the same time there is a tradition which says no that's that's too far and i think this is the challenge to every of you know everyone right we're all complicit but it's a particular challenge to the professional classes and those classes that profess to be moderate you know it's like because what they're engaged in is a violation of their own understanding or their traditional understanding of what they were about before they got you know drugged on the money i'd like to ask you a question please roger if i may because obviously um it's something a lot of people are gonna be thinking about certainly something that i thought about because there was a little controversy about um some comments that you made while you were being interviewed um in germany and your reference to the holocaust and and given um the context that it was there perhaps you weren't able to fine-tune your and contextualize your comments if you had the chance to answer those same questions again how would you do so now to give a little bit of context to it like i had a one and a half hour interview with a german journalist and we talked about a number of controversial things you know love death um responsibility moral responsibility i think that was the theme of the interview and i regret the comments i made but i don't regret the conversation because the conversation even though the words came out wrong was that i was trying in an imperfect way to try and talk about something no one's talking about should be honest and i think largely people still aren't talking about which is people's willingness to willingly engage in the destruction of the lives of others you know for ideology and i would argue material gain is an ideology you know it's at that extremity um [Music] and i mentioned in that conversation you know a whole there's a whole load of genocides not least the 10 million people that died or killed depending upon your euphemism in the congo in the late 19th century and the whole colonial period which was full of full of genocidal actions and i think we need to be honest with ourselves some of them weren't weren't intended they were neglect but some of them were some of them were specific desires to kill millions of people in order to make land available and all the rest of it so yeah i'm intending to carry on you know in my imperfect way in engaging in the public sphere to say we need to have this conversation before you develop that there is one other question i i have for you which is that if you weren't doing the beyond politics party now for example what would you be doing to make a difference you know i'm part of a tradition and every tradition is a slight fiction if you know to me you know you sort of cherry pick bits don't you and there's there's lots of elements of my heritage [Music] there's nothing to be proud of let's put it like that but i was brought up in the methodist church in manchester in the 1970s the early 80s by a very moralistic mother and father and you know for a few decades maybe or two decades you know i sort of largely forgot about it and they're both dead now so i can't check it out with them but my what i've rediscovered since i've started extinction rebellion work and you know what i'm doing would be on politics or even if beyond politics didn't exist is your question the central sort of the central under self-understanding i've come to is that we are all responsible for our actions in a deep sense you know and we're all part of a community and we're all responsible for that community not as an up to voluntary you know maybe i'll do a bit of volunteering maybe i won't but in a deeper sense that you don't violate sacred values essential human values and for me i can't avoid the reality that participating and being passive in a culture that's knowingly going to send billions of people to their deaths through starvation you know give or take you know maybe it's 500 million maybe it's going to be seven who gives a right it's a violation of everything i was taught so for me uh and i think for many people and i think we've got some common ground here is this is intolerable and if that means you know i have to stand alone and there's no beyond politics then i'll stand alone you know i mean when i set help to initiate be on politics like with extinction rebellion you know there's 15 of us in a room and it was being like yeah we're going to rebel against government because it's going to bring about extinction and we're all going whatever you know whether we're 30 people in the room in a year's time because we're over this you know because it's a violation of who we are you see what i mean it's not a utilitarian well you know that'll give that'll make the world a better place it's more like no no no like i'm not i'm not standing aside any longer i don't care what other people are doing at its best that's the northern methodist you know protestant tradition you know you don't make a fuss but at certain limits and when those limits are crossed you're you're you're on the go um and you wouldn't want to cross my mum i can tell you now and her limits were pretty low let's put it like that but you know we're part of that culture i think all our cultures have that sense of of a sacrilege you know what i mean you know it's not necessarily totally religious right but it's it's instinctual i suppose so this is just a comment rather than a question from my my perspective you you started off with rebellion extinction rebellion but rebellion that was your first reaction and um i think the dictionary definition rebellion is sort of to actively disagree with something and to sort of act out against some things what rebellion is and you've moved on if i follow your conversation with tim crossland and what beauty stands for to some version of revolution which is sort of a way of bringing about change you know by any means you can um and i'm i'm i'm still stuck in opposition okay which is your opposition first but you do rebellion then you go to you go to um revolution an opposition is is just to strongly disagree with ideas or with a project or the policy and to see so which in this day and age with all of the surveillance and all of the the the power that is wielded against ordinary citizens it's it's it's brave enough to be an opposition but to get to the point that you're at which is a revolution is is quite quite a step yeah and it's a journey we're all on and it's a journey that you know doesn't have a particular end and i don't feel like there's some people are ahead of other people in that sort of you know silly sort of way but i think um [Music] i think we're all being challenged every day if we're being honest with ourselves right uh and a lot of people don't want to talk about it but we're all being challenged you know the person that's been basing stolen us in tesco's this evening you know looking at what to eat thinking about do they really need that much meat they're being challenged everyone's being challenged and the great challenge of our time is you need to get a move on because it's exponential um and i think that's you know maybe to bring us on to our final comments if if that's okay is is i think that's the theme of our conversation maybe all these conversations is we're all examples of people that are on some journey and it's not easy is it you know it's not this isn't you know shall i go down to the gym tomorrow stuff this is this undescribable hell is coming down the road and how can i possibly respond to it and stay maintain my self-respect or maintain connection with my culture one person i i want to speak to that i think that's an extremely powerful point i think when extinction rebellion came out with those three demands you know tell the truth uh act now and set up people some people's assemblies to try and sort of affect change they may have sounded like very simple slogans but um in this day and age i'm sure it's the case in more than one place in time but i believe very strongly in this day and age that telling the truth itself is virtually an act of revolution yeah virtually an act of evolution because the status quo has so much power and the titanic is steaming ahead full stop so screaming iceberg uh you're either a complete lunatic or you start to attract attention but it's definitely an act of revolution i believe that yeah yeah so do i hence the videos all right well thanks very much you're very welcome you're very welcome