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okay good morning everybody we're going to get started my name is Todd Lanford I'm executive director of Arizona for immigration reform of one of the sponsors of today's event I want to thank you all for coming I think you're in for a very informative and educational morning and early afternoon as a fairly certain you've seen we have some of the top people in the country here to discuss immigration reform from looking at a kind of a federal perspective and comparing the Senate bill with efforts in the house and other types of perspectives on really how to solve the problem it's a part of a discussion I think that really has been long overdue they really haven't been I would argue not enough discussions of these types where it's an exchange of ideas on how do you solve the problem not so much pointing out that there is one we all know there's a problem and we don't need to really debate that but what we do need to debate is how we're going to solve the problem so we can keep our Academy moving that people can who are here without documentation can come out of the shadows and we can make sure this problem doesn't continue again and again and again as it has since 1986 okay here are the general ground rules for today except for the first panel and I'll explain why in a second this is modeled after Oxford styled debates and what that means is is that there are two sides that are essentially going to argue about or debate I guess trying to be not really having a cement up here yeah discussion of various issues that are relevant to immigration reform using as kind of a starting point with the kind of ongoing public discussions between Senate bill s.744 which is also known as the gang of eight bill and other types of legislation that are being introduced or being discussed and in the house most of you are here I'm going to presume that a lot of you have followed immigration for or to some greater extent than a lot of other folks so I not really going to get into you know sort of the nuts and bolts of each each of the bills but really talk about from from a high level and then get down into some details you know what's wrong with the Senate bill what's you know what's right with what the house approach is what are the where is the common ground between the two bills that could actually be you know discussed and agreed upon to help solve this problem again when I first started out I said look you know we've got it we I think everybody can agree that the status quo is not a workable solution and we need to do something about that and so one of our hopes today is that this discussion will help identify some of those areas of common ground where we can debate and reach some kind of conclusion and Amina bowl solution to this problem so then there's this panel we had a couple people actually we had three people who were going to be here today one of whom is testifying in front of Congress today and I guess Congress Phoenix Congress one another one is a gentleman's father got ill and so he's with him in the hospital which we understand and another person has a special needs child and could not get somebody to take care of her unexpectedly so what we're going to have is Eddie eldrazi from international commerce bank and chanting from Temple University and I and you are going to have a discussion about border security and it's really one of the biggest issues in immigration reform debate you know why do people come here you know do we need to spend money billions of dollars on a fence do we need to have more ice agents what needs to be done with the immigration laws do we need more visas do we need less visas that kind of topic is going to be discussed later but it's you know all lens to this issue of border security you know are the people coming here are they just coming here to work or do they have other ulterior motives so all of that factors into what has often been and particularly those of you who have lived in arizona since really 2007 when the employer sanctions bill came into being through SB 1070 and the discussions and the legal challenges after that you're well aware of that border security is one of the top issues and so with that what what we're going to do is start with Eddie I do you want to give a couple words about what you do and how you got sucked into this sure I sort of feel like Ross Perot's running mate Who am I and why am I here my name is Eddie Olivet the senior vice president with ibc bank international bank of commerce in San Antonio Texas I'm on the board of the national immigration forum on the immigration committee for the US Chamber and I'm also on the board of the Texas border coalition Texas has the distinction of having the largest portion of the southern border and in our particular situation in Texas it's rather unique because we don't have an imaginary line in the sand or nor do we have you know a solid fence from one end of the state to the other we have a natural barrier in the Rio Grande part of the issue that we have faced in Texas is that unfortunately the Department of Homeland Security didn't necessarily work in conjunction and complement the topography that we have because there are different things that you can do with the river that will enhance not only the local situation but our security concerns as a country what I want to do is take a quick step back and share a couple of other thoughts with you that seem to get forgotten during this this debate because we unfortunately Washington works and Congress works in the art of the possible and those of us who live in the real world deal with data and facts and how to solve problems and then you solve the problems and if they're still not fixed well then you keep tweaking and perfecting them until they are fixed so one major fact that seems to get lost in this debate is if you take a look at what our workforce situation currently is I'm a baby boomer I was born between 1946 and 1964 as the time frame for the baby boom and so the biggest issue that we face is you have 10 to 15 million more baby boomers leaving the workforce than you have entering the workforce so question number one we should ask ourselves before we draft any sort of immigration reform or border security plan is who fills the jobs that are going to be left vacant by those 10 to 15 million people and that doesn't even include all the new jobs that our economy creates every year so that's question number one then the next thing you need to look at is our total fertility rate as a country we've already fallen below the sustainability rate of 2.1 it takes 2.1 children per adult female for a population to replace itself and we're at one point 93 and so if you're below 2.1 that means eventually your population begins to go and decline you know we're not in decline yet because our elderly people are living a lot longer than they were 50 60 years ago so there are plenty of examples across the world to take a look at what's happening and as you can see from the chart that you're looking at there's no better example in this world in Japan most demographers believe Japan has passed the tipping point even two years ago many demographers predicted the demise of the Japanese people that the last the Japanese baby would be born in the year 3000 11 in 2011 the largest manufacturer of diapers in Japan announced that for the first time ever adult diapers outsole baby diapers now that's a recipe for economic disaster and we kind of chuckle at that but that's the same path that we are headed on as the country if if we don't pay attention to what's happening so let's take a look so here you see a few of the countries that are struggling you know if you look at Canada Canada's at 1.6 so what is Canada do well they who wants to live in cold Tundra a lot of people don't it's a lot of people don't move there so you know what Canada does they have recruitment centers you know we become obsessed with law enforcement and punitive actions and make no mistake law enforcement is one of the most critical components of a border security plan but if you solely obsess over law enforcement and you forget about everything else that's happening in your country then you do yourself more harm than good so what Canada does is they go and recruit people all over the world we have a lot of software engineers that work for our high-tech companies that must live in Canada because we don't have enough visas to bring them in here so we have a choice a few years ago when agricultural producers in California were struggling to find workers to pick their crops and there were no workers to be found guess what they did they started moving to where the labor is in this case that's Mexico so let's see if we get this straight we're in this economic recession and we're sending high-tech jobs to Canada and low-skilled jobs to Mexico so somebody please tell me what sense that makes all those jobs could have easily stayed right here in the United States if we had an immigration system that worked to the benefit of our country so when you take the United States fertility rate and you break that down by demographic group and that's not changing can you go to the next slide this it's not changing for me there we go you'll see that asian-americans african-americans and Anglos are all below replacement level hispanics are the only demographic group that are above replacement and even their declining and their declining at a faster rate than anyone else is and so while my family is not typical I'm just going to use my family as an example this picture was taken in 1938 in Del Rio Texas on the border the dapper young 14 year old gentleman on the left is my father it was one of 11 children also taken in 1938 is this picture on the right this is my mother's family from Brownsville Texas also on the Rio Grande on the southern border my mother was one of 11 so dad was one of 11 mom was one of 11 they had five kids I'm 105 my wife is one of five and we have three kids three kids today is above the norm um we laugh at China's one-child policy but if you're a college educated urban living white female in the United States you have a one-child policy but it's by preference and not by the government decree and so when we look at these issues what happens in this debate Todd is that we get obsessed with the tip of the iceberg and that's the emotional part of the debate that is the border security part of the debate it is the law enforcement part of the debate and what no one's really arguing about is the bottom part of the iceberg and we all know that it's the giant mass below the surface of the water that we cannot see there were not paying attention to it's that that sinks ships it's that part of the iceberg that can sink our economy if we failed that we fail to pay attention to it and has made up of our declining fertility rates are massive retirement rates from the baby boom generation and the aging society in the United States so we have a choice in this country we can either continue to debate the emotional part or we can follow Russia's example and declare a new holiday a national day of procreation where everyone has given the day off ask to go home close the curtains turn out the lights and do their patriotic duty okay um thanks it I mean I even go on I yeah it had just in case anyone's wondering it's September the 11 oh ok uh oh is it really yes yeah how do you how you follow a pitch for get busy day thanks Eddie well it's i guess i will punt and hand it to jan and say oh what's your take on that that's not good busy day I you know but it just it's I mean it's you know is that he said most of the discussions on border security all deals with that top part of the iceberg which is actually pretty good metaphor you know you've been looking at this stuff for a long time you worked you know for the government immigration for a long time you know what's your reaction to those types of art well first let me say that I want to thank all the sponsors and organizers and volunteers to put this event together I think it's very timely and appropriate and I certainly agree with the consensus that the immigration reform debate is far from over indeed I would go so far as to say it's going to go on as long as there's a republic that it is part of the American character apparently to be debating immigration and and and we continue to do so and I agree Todd with your your introductory remark that part of our challenge is to make sure that the problems we've dealt with since 1986 don't recur again and again and again I certainly associate myself with that and and let me say you know I don't I didn't bring photographs but both my parents were immigrants and I grew up in a suburb of Detroit called Dearborn where all my classmates were children or grandchildren of immigrants from all over the world including Mexico and the Middle East we had one when I was growing up we had one of the only three mosques in the United States in dearborn michigan and dearborn michigan has become one of the largest Muslim American communities in the United States so of course I admire and respect immigrants and all Americans should because all Americans are either immigrants themselves or descendants of ancestors that came here from somewhere else and i'm told that even includes native americans so we're all descendants of people that came from somewhere else the question I would submit Todd is and the problem really is given the fact that we should admire and respect immigrants how many how many should we bring in every year that is the question and and to me it's a binary choice either we admit everybody or as the lulac representative said anyone who comes to work deserves a place or we say no we can't admit everybody we're going to have to set a limit somewhere and enforce a limit it's a binary choice you have to choose one or the other and I think at the root of our problem in the United States is we can't make that choice we have a hard time making that choice of either saying yeah let everybody and immigration is good more immigration is better let everyone in or alternatively we're going to enforce a limit because we can't take everybody and we're not willing to do that either don't make me make that choice you know there's there's a constant search for a third way but there isn't a third way now a lot of lawyers think they can argue both sides of every question me too you know I think I can argue the the open borders side and I'd be happy to do so if somebody wanted to pay me to do so I mean I can argue the utilitarian side what is the immigration policy that benefits the most people open borders the libertarian side what is the immigration policy that maximizes human freedom Oh open borders let everyone in I can argue the social justice side what is the immigration policy that would benefit the least among us Oh open borders unlimited immigration the historical side what was the immigration policy that the country was founded on and built up on for the first century Oh open borders unlimited immigration what's the religious argument for open borders so you know what would Jesus a--'s immigration policy look like Oh open borders be kind of strangers you know let everyone in so there's an argument there it's a coherent argument and I would be unembarrassed to make that argument and furthermore the alternative of trying to enforce limitations is not only very difficult but it's very expensive right i mean the migration policy institute came out with an estimate that we're spending 18 billion taxpayer dollars a year trying to enforce our immigration laws that could be spent on something else and i think that's a little high i've argued with migration policy institute but it's a big number we're spending a ton of money on trying to enforce immigration laws um but uh and we're not doing a great job of it I mean the problem is demand exceeds any limit that we try and put in place the demand for immigration opportunities is greater than any limit we can set we all know there's poverty in the world is aggravated by the worldwide recession people want better lives and the revolution and communications gives them information as to where they can find better lives in the United States in Europe in Australia the prob em is not limited to the United States by any means and if you read the papers a diminishing number of us do I know but we know this is a problem all over the world and modern transportation makes immigration whether legal or not easier than it has been at any time in our path this panel is on border control so let me just offer some comments on board of control I don't think it will work I think one of the questionable parts of the Senate bill is the ton of money there shoveling out for additional border control and it won't work because it's too hard the office of refugee resettlement which is part of the State Department has said that in fy2013 23,500 unaccompanied minors were apprehended 23,500 children were apprehended entering the United States without adult accompaniment that is a situation that is continuing to be out of control we also know that nearly half of the undocumented population in the United States did not enter by violating the border they entered with visas entered legally and overstayed their visas so spending a ton of money on border control isn't going to solve that problem and finally one of my colleagues at Temple former colleague actually used to say the poor people of the world may be poor but they are not stupid that they are as capable of doing cost-benefit analysis to determine what's in their own self-interest as anyone in this room he used to say and they do it all the time and if they're trying to decide whether to enter the United States without documents they do a cost-benefit analysis what are the risks what are the costs of doing that but what are the benefits that they get and if we want more illegal immigration if we want to deal with this problem again and again and again all we have to do is lower the costs maybe through prosecutorial discretion and and raise the benefits maybe through mass legalization if we want to restrict illegal immigration in the United States we have to do just the opposite raise the costs and lower the benefits um it's not that complicated the problem as I said at the outset is that we refuse to make the choice of either saying we're for unlimited immigration and all the benefits that it brings or that were prepared to enforce a limitation somewhere and you know we'll have to let Congress right what the limitation is because there's no better way to do that we're not willing to do either one of those things we keep searching for a third way how about this let's keep the limits that are currently on the books on the books but let's not enforce them right and then when we have a whole growing number of people who are undocumented in the United States let's throw up our hands and say there's nothing we can do we have to legalize them right is that a good third way is that a good way that's going to prevent the problem from happening again and again and again I don't think so would you like to respond be sure I mean just a couple thoughts number one again when you take a look at deciding and in and I guess I don't agree with the fact that you're either for Orban open borders or you or for you know shutting the borders down consider this no national economy no corporate structure is based on stagnation there are all based on growth if companies are not growing then their competitors are and so if our economy if we want to create jobs that requires growth growth requires a larger workforce and if we're not producing a native-born workforce then we must import the human capital that is necessary to keep our economy growing we're in a global race for talent um it makes absolutely no sense that a corporation today is considering the building of a floating barge off the west coast of the United States in international waters so that software engineers can live there by night and ferry in by day to go work at Google and Intel and eBay that's because we have an arbitrary number that we established on how many visas we should give software engineers are a dime a dozen in Canada so the status quo continues to favor Canada now we can be kind and benevolent to our next door neighbor Canada or we can choose to be a little selfish and do what's in the best of our own interest as a country and bring that human capital and that talent here to the United States the reality is that workforce has to come from somewhere and if you look around the world what other countries are doing they're all recruiting that talent now slowly we're beginning to slide in certain areas the reality is that last week we came out again with the standings and national standings and math and science and reading and we move down a few notches and so if we're not able to create that talent here at home because we have fewer students that are going into the STEM fields of science technology engineering and math then we need to import that expertise so that we can continue to keep our economy moving you know you have certain countries that struggle with this I've already mentioned a couple you know Russia shrinks by about 700,000 people every day excuse me every year there did their population declines Japan continues to struggle they outsource their engineering work half of it to Vietnam and half of it to India what is outsourced because there aren't enough people that are staying there and then once you reach a certain point you're younger workforce tends to leave the country because of the declining number of opportunities and I want to just touch for a moment on what's happening in Mexico this is another part of the debate that people don't talk about most people assume that Mexico is a third-world country they are not most people's perception of Mexico as a third world country is rooted in data that goes back to nineteen fifty which is usually about the year that their college professor was born and so most people see the the Mexico as being or they see the world as either you're a developing nation or you're a Western nation you're in the developing world or the Western world and the definition is usually that a developing world is a larger families and shorter life span and the Western world is smaller families and longer lives man here's let me tell you what's happening in Mexico right now reshoring is taking place the offshoring manufacturing that used to take place in China China has now lost their competitive competitive price advantage and they're no longer really interested in being the low-cost producer for small inexpensive items that they manufacture some Mexico is now the beneficiary that Mexico's unemployment rate is four and a half percent ours is between seven and seven and a half percent Mexico graduates three times as many engineers per capita as we do in the United States so the reason that we have a net migration of zero is because Mexico's economy is flourishing they're now being referred to by The Economist magazine as the Aztec tiger recently president Pena Nieto announced that he is going to look and consider an attempt to push through his Congress the exploration by international companies of their offshore oil oil reserves if we build any more border fencing in the United States it should be where the barbed wires faced inward because you're going to see a massive exit of people who want to leave the United States and go back home and the reason is if you have a choice being away from your family or being with your family you're going to choose to be with your family and as mexico's the the irony here is that Mexico's economy is flourishing despite all the cartel violence that's occurring imagine where Mexico would be without that violence but the reality is that their economy is booming and so I would ask any member of Congress who is afraid that if we pass immigration reform that there's going to be another tidal wave of immigrants coming from Mexico my question is where are you going to get them from because they're not going to be coming from Mexico and I do agree with you on the border security portion because today we spend more enforcing border security than we do all other federal law enforcement combined and the reality is what do you want to do do you want to punish the people who come here illegally or would you rather reduce the incentives and prevent them from entering illegally to begin with today what we do is it's the equivalent of having a speed limit of 25 miles an hour on an interstate highway what's going to happen people are going to speed because that speed limit is out of whack with the ability to move people in in an orderly fashion so is the answer to hire more police officers and more state troopers to issue tickets and to punish people for speeding or is it to set the speed limit at a level that allows for the orderly flow well we have arbitrarily set numbers on the number of visas that we give as a country and so we do end up becoming a magnet because we demand that labor and much of that labor in the case of the United States comes from Mexico so we have a choice we can continue to fortify the border or we can reduce the incentives for them to come illegally by allowing people to come if we have a job for them if we need more bricklayers than we should raise the quote on bricklayers if we need more brain surgeons then we should raise the quota on brain surgeons to be able to satisfy our economy so that we don't have shortages in massive industries and i'm going to give you two examples briefly the Border Patrol is one the GAO announced in 2012 that 51% of all customs and border protection agents were eligible for retirement every time Congress says let's double or triple or quadruple or quintuple or whatever the size of the Border Patrol my question is where are you going to find them because for every one you hire you're going to lose one to retirement the second one is the aerospace assembly line workforce forty percent of all aerospace assembly line workers were also eligible for retirement in 2012 so as we continue to ramp up and engage in more international activities and build the military the problem is who's going to build that next phase of fighter jets when we have too many people leaving the assembly lines so Jen what's what's what's your reaction to basically the the argument that Eddie is making that we clearly have a need for certain types of labor that they're they're very clearly obviously not enough Americans want to do and you know is there is there some point at which we have to acknowledge that and make adjustments in federal policy to get those types of workers because if if Mexico and points south have been the the origins for those types of workers and they're not going to be coming here anymore you know is is it really a completely rational argument to say that you know we're going to have this continued flood when there isn't the math isn't there to show that there is a flood well let me first say no one is advocating closing the board and indeed if we do nothing what we're left with is the most generous legal immigration policy in the world bar none the United States each year has a complicated formula for legal immigration of the United States Marco Rubio says we're the best nation for immigrants in the world and he's right we admit every year for permanent residence in the United States with a clear path to full citizenship about a million immigrants every year we admit more green card holders permanent residents with a clear path to full citizenship then all the rest of the nations of the world combined and as I testified to Congress in April Senate Judiciary Committee that is a immigration policy worthy of American values we are a nation of immigrants and we ought to be in the lead in admitting more immigrants than all the rest of the nations of the world combined now on the issue of growth and the need for a larger workforce it's entirely reasonable to say a million that's not enough we need more okay I mean that's that's a rational conclusion how many how many more do we need that's the question and what kind you know more brain surgeons no problem I think more engineers you know if you can demonstrate and eat although I think there are a lot of American engineers let's say they're out there looking but okay no problem the question before us is this is there any limit that we would be willing to enforce is there any limit that we would be willing to enforce to the point of saying we're going to turn people away not because they're bad people in fact there are a lot like our ancestors but we're going to turn them away because we have a limit and admitting them would exceed that limit and if the answer is no there's no limit at which we would deny someone who comes to work a place then why can't we just say we're for open borders or for unlimited immigration to the United States it's all good right why can't we say that again it seems to me it is a binary choice either were prepared to enforce a limit somewhere well a million a million and a half two million is there some limit that we're willing to enforce or is there no limit we're willing to enforce in which case let's say unlimited immigration save a ton of money that we're spending on enforcing our immigration laws and devote it to better schools for kids better health care right fund the affordable care act properly there are a lot of things we could do with 18 billion dollars a year but let's make up our minds and and I submit to you that our inability to make that fundamental choice no limits or limits is at the root of why the immigration debate seems like such a mess actually want to I'm really going to try and get us back on schedule here is there any like to ask dollars bring them but I think I bullet reading that it's that is more than all their types of federal law enforcement mine in fact we in prison morgue all other federal episode on question is is this really because it can you hear but it's like it doesn't matter how much cause we have to put the whole US Army on the border do it you know there's no there's no limit so you said you know we need to pick up it on immigration but what's the limit on enforcement yeah I I agree that tells it or is it is it the case of this is not a logical question then whatever it takes yeah I'm wondering if you have a comment than that because it does seem to me that there are other day so a lot with the blueblack other types of concern most problems to try to protect Americans as we are to try to keep people coming in it absolutely there has to be a limit right it & mike mike wibble with the migration policy institute is I mean I think we're spending more like 15 billion dollars on immigration enforcement but it either way it's a gigantic number and and we have to apply principles of cost-benefit analysis obviously there's a finite limit on what we can or want to spend is there as you suggest another way to get more bang for the buck would for example interior enforcement be more cost-effective than border enforcement once certainly one of my objections to the Senate bill is the ton of money that they seem to be shoveling at border enforcement and the reason why they do that by the way is because there's no constituency opposed to spending money on border enforcement there are obviously constituencies that would object to more spending on interior enforcement of our immigration laws but there really isn't a constituency opposed to spending more money on border enforcement so if you need to ameliorate the concerns of people but we're going to have an immigration problem you shovel another you know a couple of billion dollars at border enforcement no one objects and indeed the the industrial complex that supports all the technology they applaud you know they think that's great that we're going to spend more money at the border so I I do think we need to take a critical eye and say is that money well spent can we spend that money in more efficient ways that are more beneficial to the United States like schools and health care rather than than that and I that's one of my objections to the to the Senate bill is there is there a one of the things that I've been trying to try to kind of figure out is what is the what would be the impact of immigration reform reforming the visas are forming the process on border security you know setting aside for a seco d the notion that you know we need to have some kind of finite number but let's just say a lot of people keep talking about we need to have market-based quotas you know however you want to define what the market demand is for whether it's brain surgeons or agriculture workers you know construction workers is really matter but if if if reform meant that those who wanted to come here had a legal process that they could go through you know come through the front door like everybody talks about and so they didn't come crossing through the desert do you think that would contribute to less pressure on the border and then less need for more border agents less money for fences you know that kind of stuff well you know I think unlimited immigration would solve all of those problems unlimited immigration would is the ultimate market based immigration system right let people apply the cost-benefit analysis to whether they're better off in the united states are better off in mexico people will make the right choice you know that they can do it and the same of people from other countries let them make the right choice as to where the best job opportunities are for them that's what unlimited immigration is all about and I think if we're really serious about let the market decide why wouldn't we embrace unlimited immigration and say yeah let the market decide these people are not stupid they are not going to make a decision that's against their best interests they're going to make the decision that is in the best interest and if you believe in the hidden hand of Adam Smith you know we all benefit from that right so so for the people that are proponents of market-based immigration it seems to me unlimited immigration is the way to go but if you can't go there for whatever reason the alternative is enforcing some sort of numerical limit it's tricky to get the number right because they're all these vested interests I want to argue one way or the other way you have to deal with a congress and and Congress you know has its own interests and concerns at stake but that's what the political process is all about is getting the number right getting the right kinds of visas available and you know I don't have a simple solution for that so you can either do it the easy way or the hard way the easy way is unlimited gration the hard way is let Congress develop a formula as to how many immigrants were willing to let in every year okay I'm going to take two quick please make them brief then not give Eddie feel free to jump in Sheridan lots of territory the was a virgin situation at cultural excusing thank you we had cultural systems of different types around the country there's plenty of room to grow and and what I think we're we're missing and we often get into a question of racism but I think it's really more about cultural change so that's the driver that the resistance to to open borders is how much cultural change can we harmoniously absorb in this process and so there's this movement you know the argument currently a citizenship or no citizenship which it sad attempt to make a compromise that might work so what's the difference for a family that comes to the US with a green card the parents may not gain citizenship but the children do you know there's there's a there's a potential bargain there so it's not so much about the mechanics but more about the underlying fundamentals and so do you see a difference and I'm challenge you challenging the idea that is binary there are good under there are understandings as to why open borders would not work and that would be the concern of unrunnable chiral change that we can't absorb harmonious caught you know social conflict could you address that point this is a continuation of a discussion we we started at dinner last night briefly but Bridget let them back to it later let me say I often ask my students when I teach citizenship and immigration law you know what was our immigration policy for the first century of the Republic you know and and some of them will say well open borders right unlimited immigration input and that was our policy you know for the first century of the Republican this country was founded on open immigration that anyone in the world who wanted to come here could come here and and contribute to to building a republic and I asked the students how'd that work out how'd that work out that open immigration policy and the answer is we built a great Republic out of nothing right I mean that open immigration policy resulted in that great Republic the most you know in a century that the leading industrial nation in the world was built out of wilderness and so if it was such a great success the third question is always if it was such a great success why did it change why did it change and and that that's a whole course by the way so I I'm not going to venture into that but you think about that why did it change if it was such a successful policy if we had no problem absorbing all these different cultures and people coming in and taking their contributions and you know the immigrant innovators that we benefited from during our first century why did that change so so think about that in response to your specific question I mean is it minor E yeah I am still convinced that it's it's binary in that either you say yeah let's embrace that unlimited immigration or say no you know there's got to be a limit for whatever reason our cultural fears or whatever you know our paranoia about being flooded with immigrants it could be anything but the alternative is to say no we're going to enforce a limit on how many people would come in what is the appropriate limit it's very hard political discussion what kinds of people are we going to allow in within our limit you know we're going to have to have that that that is that is the the alternative it seems to me and it's it's a it's a harder way to go is saying we're going to settle them it but again I say if we do nothing we're left with the most generous legal immigration system in the world bar not okay actually I'm going to have to take it back one more question if we've got to get back on the schedule and I just got a text from the guy he was skyping in for the next panel going where are you anyway Eddie Danni closing remarks I'll just leave you with this one thought while I don't support complete and total open borders i will share one market condition with you there's a small community in germany germany similar to japan struggling with their fertility rates and their demographic situations there seems to be a surplus of prostitutes in this community and there is a shortage of younger men so demographers in this community are saying that the prostitutes technically are underemployed well the other thing that occurred is there is a surplus of older men in this community and a shortage of nursing home nurses so this community decided to connect the dots and retrain the prostitutes and so one of the leaders of the community said you know it's not bad when you think about it first of all they're people oriented to they're not afraid of human contact and number three to have a great bedside manner so all right thank you please thank Eddie I'll Richie and chanting you