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[MUSIC PLAYING] Hi, everyone, and welcome to this Indeed Job Cast. I'm excited to introduce our guest speaker today, Emilie Aries. Emilie is a speaker, podcast host, author, and the founder and CEO of Bossed Up, an award-winning personal and professional development community where she helps women craft happy, healthy, and sustainable career paths. And that's me, Brandy Cohn. I'm a manager on Indeed's job seeker experience team. We're responsible for creating helpful resources like this Job Cast for our users, like you. So take it away, Emilie. Thank you so much, Brandy, and thanks to the entire Indeed team for making today possible. I am so delighted to spend some time with y'all today to get very practical and tactical about how to navigate career transition. That is what I've been thinking about, working on, and fighting for the better part of the past decade, but it all started with my own personal career transition almost-- what-- eight years ago now. I started off in the realm of campaigns and elections, and rose fairly quickly as a young leader fighting on behalf of causes and candidates that I believed in. I became a senior digital strategist fighting on behalf of major Senate campaigns across the United States by the age of 26, and found myself feeling like I was achieving someone else's dream career. I don't know if you've ever felt that way, like everything you've been fighting for or everything you've been pursuing-- you get to the finish line and look around, and think, is this it? This isn't really feeling aligned with what I want to be doing in this world and how I'm going to be showing up in this world. And so it took me about two tumultuous, rocky years there to find my way to crafting a career that I really love. And that started with learning how to pivot those advocacy skills from advocating on behalf of others to actually advocating on behalf of myself. And that's really what the job search process entails nowadays. You have to be your own best advocate, and I have had the pleasure of helping countless others-- men, women, and everyone across the gender spectrum-- land dream jobs that they absolutely love by learning how to persuasively communicate throughout the job search process. And that's really what we're going to tackle here today. If you want more resources, you can always find me online at emilieairies.org or bossedup.org. And my fantastic colleague, Ellie, our creative director at Bossed Up, is also here today, and she's about to share with you our corresponding handout for today's conversation. If you're the kind of person who likes to write, or jot down notes, or interact throughout a workshop, that handout is the perfect complimentary guide to today's conversation. If you're not able to access the handout now, don't worry. We'll make sure you get access to it later as well, and it's just as relevant later-- full of resources and interactive components to help you navigate your job search effectively. Now, if you're hearing my story and thinking, well, that's well and nice, Emilie, to achieve a career ambition and then realize it's not for you, I want you to know that this is also just as relevant a conversation if you are finding yourself much more in a tough spot when it comes to the current economic climate. So this is not just for folks who have a job it's no longer serving them and want to change. This is also for the millions of folks who find ourselves having to navigate a career transition because the industry or the career focus that we've had to date is no longer relevant because of all that's happening in today's world. The two circumstances are quite different, and I've-- trust me, I've been in both over the course of my lifetime, and I've helped countless others who've navigated both kinds of career transitions. The skill set is very similar. So today we're going to focus on the following. We're going to make sure that we understand how COVID-19 has impacted the job search process and get a high-level look at which industries have been hit hardest and which are hiring more so now than ever. We're going to then break down three concrete skills to help persuasively communicate throughout the course of your job search process and advocate for a career transition across industries. These are the persuasive skills that helped me be a great campaigner, and we're going to help you run the campaign that is getting a job as strategically as possible. So we're going to talk [INAUDIBLE] audience-- how to balance in both, how to map your skills from one industry to the next, and how to practice persuasively communicating what's transferable about your skills. So again, if you want access to that handout, the handout can be found in the Zoom chat function. If you have any questions or concerns along the way, feel free to weigh in there. So we all know that, whenever we're talking about job search in the middle of 2020, we are not talking about normal job search circumstances. Things are weird globally. There's no other way to put it. In some industries, like the airline industry and a bunch of these industries-- hospitality, events and conventions, travel industries-- they have been hit harder than anything or anyone could see coming. It is not a great time to pivot into any of these areas of growth. These are typically wonderful opportunities for career progression, but not right now. So unless you're here because you're preparing for a job search you want to launch a year from now-- which I highly doubt this-- is not where we're going to want to spend our time. Instead, it's maybe of interest to think about how COVID-19 has impacted industries that are hiring more so now than ever. If you're less set on a specific industry and you're open to exploring lots of opportunities in different industries, these are some of the industries that are hiring more so now than ever. And fortunately, for all of us, Indeed.com has adjusted how they're sharing job opportunities and you really strategic way so that employers and job seekers alike can make it clear whether or not they are urgently hiring. So if you are urgently in need of a paycheck and urgently looking to make a career pivot, and it's more about timeliness than finding the perfect fit, make sure you make note of those who are urgently hiring on Indeed, which is an excellent way to sift through your priorities. What I like to say is, if you have the privilege of time, if you are not facing eviction, if your worst case scenario is not being unable to put food on the table for yourself or your family, keep a high bar and compromise later. If you need to compromise now because it is not a time to be picky-- it is time to be practical about getting an income flowing again-- the urgently hiring feature of Indeed can be a helpful way to just be realistic about setting your priorities. So here are the three persuasive components that I want to talk through to help you pivot, because regardless of what privileges you have or don't have in this job search climate, if it's time to pivot, that means it's time to focus on what skills you are working with-- because at the end of the day, a pivot is not an easy thing to stick. Sticking your landing is not terribly easy, but the moral of the story is you have transferable skills. The question is, who can use them right now? A client of mine recently went from being a therapist to working in occupational health and safety consulting, which has been a lifelong passion of hers, but one that she got away from about 15 years ago when she went into social work, really. And she was able to make the case to her new employer, who she was just hired by, to say, listen, I know that I've been focusing on my therapy work, and communication skills, and empathy skills over the past chunk of my career, but my lifelong focus-- including what I studied in undergrad and graduate studies-- was really focused more on occupational safety and health. And in today's climate, I feel called to go back to what originally got me into the workforce to begin with, and to really focus on bringing those skills to the forefront, because the world needs those skills now more than ever. And she was able to focus on, OK, who needs those skills now? And that might mean looking back throughout the course of your career and unearthing skills that have been laying dormant for a little while, or even developing new skills to make yourself as compelling and persuasive a job search candidate as possible. So let's talk through three key principles for how to identify and communicate your transferable skills, especially when you're making the leap from one industry to the next. First, one of the core principles of all persuasive communication is that you need to know your goals-- which, I would argue that job seekers are very clear on their goals-- like, I need a job and here's what I need in my job to make me happy, or here's what I need in my pay to make me happy, healthy, and financially stable. But equally important is to understand your audience. Your audience, the employer, is not going to be motivated by your dire need for a job. That's not going to motivate them to act, to hire you, to interview you. We need to play to their concerns, to their worries, to their strategy. We need to think empathically. What is this employer looking for right now? Because every person who's hiring, at some level, is trying to solve a problem. I'm hiring a podcast editor because we needed a podcast editor on my team who could move a little faster than the one we've been working with for the past year or so. As he scales up his business, we were looking to hire podcast editor in-house to join our team. And that was a problem. The ability to communicate and get timely service from my podcast editor was the problem that I was looking to solve when hiring a podcast editor, which we just did recently. So when I'm applying for a job, my goal is to think, how can I write the most persuasive cover letter, or mission statement, or personal value statement, or resume to say, I am the solution to your problem? Really empathizing with your employer, with your audience, your prospective next boss is going to make you-- is really going to help you have that super power of using empathy to be audience-centric and be as persuasive as possible. Now, you can get to know your audience better right here at Indeed on the career path site-- career pages, rather-- where you can browse by different careers and get to know what kinds of people are in those careers so you can better understand how COVID-19 is impacting that space right now, and what problems they might be looking to solve so you can position yourself as the solution to their problems, as the gap that they're looking to fill. So a critical way to think about that isn't just starting with empathizing with your audience, but also to understand, what skills do I actually have that this next employer of mine really needs? Now, there's a lot of talk in the career development space and right here at Indeed about the difference between hard skills and soft skills. Keep in mind, first and foremost, that none is better than the other. Hard skills and soft skills are both really important. In recent decades, soft skills have become an area of focus, because that's what sets us apart as human beings from our artificial intelligence counterparts. If there is a software program that can do your job, what makes you better than that software program? It's your human ability to bring soft skills to the table. It also speaks more to your character. So while it's super important to emphasize the hard tactical skills, the areas of expertise you've developed, the hardware and software that how to use, the proficiencies that you've developed when it comes to chemical engineering or email campaign writing-- whatever those hard skills are, those are certainly important. But your soft skills speak to who you are and how you do what you do. Are you reliable? Are you dependable? Are you loyal? Are you a team player, or are you someone who thrives independently? There's no right or wrong way to describe your soft skills, but really think about, how can I best describe how I do what I do, not just what I do? In a competitive job landscape, it's important to emphasize both, to really balance how you have hard skills that you're bringing to the table, but also that you're the kind of person that other people want to work with. That matters, so don't sell yourself short by forgetting to identify what character traits and soft skills you're bringing to the table, because they can make a big difference. In the first page of today's corresponding worksheet-- which, again, you can find here in Zoom's chat feature-- I want to challenge you to take inventory of your skills. The best way to think about doing that is to think about, what are the skills that you currently perform at your day job-- or if you're not currently employed, did you most recently used in your last or most recent employment situation? What are all the skills that you could describe you used on a regular basis there? Was it fundraising skills? Was it customer service skills? Was it problem solving? Identify, what are those hard skills and soft skills that you brought to your last employer? Then let's go back a little further. Even if you're a recent graduate, I want you to think about any past internships, or even part-time jobs. I know I, for one, waited tables and babysat throughout most of my college years, and it's easy to brush those experiences to the side, saying, yeah, well, that doesn't relate to the degree I have now that I want to use. But I would caution you against doing so. Instead, think about, what skills were prominently required of me when I was waiting tables and babysitting? And the skills of multitasking, of providing excellent customer service, of diffusing sticky situations or tense situations and having assertive conversations-- that was all a big part of those jobs. So don't discredit the job based on the fact that it might not align with what you want to do next. Instead, try to mine that job for the skills that are transferable. And sometimes I see folks in their resume, when you start describing a past experience, the first bullet point tends to start with the skills that you performed the most. A recent client of mine who was actually a recent graduate-- Hannah-- she just landed a job of her dreams on a political campaign this cycle, and when she was describing some of her past internships, she said, well, most of what I did in that internship was answer phones and write correspondence on behalf of the member of Congress I was interning for. And that was the first. And I said, Hannah, does that relate to exactly the kind of role you want next? And she said, no, it doesn't. The role I'm looking for is more about digital communications, social media management, website management for campaigns. And I said, did you do any of that in that position? She said, sure, but it just was a little bit. I said, it doesn't matter how much of the job you performed using that skill set. Put your most relevant skill sets at the top of the bullet point list, if you have one, beneath each resume experience. And finally, once you've mined your past experiences-- either your current job or most recent job, and the jobs prior for the hard skills and soft skills that you developed there, I would also give yourself the freedom to think about what skills you'd like to develop further. Where could you go with this next? If given the opportunity, what are the skills that you would like to focus on? And maybe, just maybe, that's an opportunity for extracurricular skill building right now to make you even more of an attractive candidate. Once you've done an inventory in that handout of all the skills that you bring to the table, I want you to look at that from the perspective of your ideal next employer. Which of all of your skills matter most to the kind of job that you're looking for? So to borrow Hannah's example again, if Hannah was looking for a digital strategist role, the skills that matter most had more to do with the social media management and rapid response email campaign writing that she was doing. And those are the skills to emphasize. That's an example of keeping your entire job search strategy not just goal-oriented, but audience-centric. Now, if you're at a loss and not sure quite how to describe all the different skills you bring to the table, you might want to find keywords in the job descriptions that appeal to you the most and think critically about how you're describing your skills. For instance, a client of mine is going from being in an accounting office to serving as a data scientist, which is what she's been studying her whole life. She's been kind of stuck in accounting, when she really wants to be doing data science work. And so we were looking at how the data science job descriptions that she was most excited about described the skills they were looking for, and it turns out they were using really different words, different verbiage to describe what she had been describing as Microsoft Excel competencies and data software proficiencies. We needed to match how she was describing her skill set with exactly the key words that were found in the job descriptions related to the field that she wanted to go into next. Now, this is a really hard thing to do, because some industries use the exact same verbiage for totally different things. One of my job search clients is in fundraising, and when she would be writing fundraising appeals-- and then she wanted to get into the world of tech and VC funding-- she wanted to go from being a non-profit fundraiser to a startup fundraiser-- she had to be very careful about how she described her development work, because development in the world of non-profit fundraising needs something very different than being a developer in the world of tech. So you want to be very mindful about how your past experiences are being described, and how that relates to your future job opportunities. The best way to catch those lost in translation moments is to have someone in your target industry give you personalized feedback on your resume and say, do the words I'm using here match up to the words that you're hearing in your industry? If not, it's time to do some more research. To finally close out the second skill set for persuasively communicating your transferable skills, I want you to be honest with yourself. If you take an inventory of your skill set and you find that there's a gap between the skills you have and the skills that your next employer is really looking for, don't shy away from that or feel shame about it. Lean into that and honestly take stock of how you can develop those skills further. So if there is a graduate degree standing between you and the career you want, or if there is social media management experience standing between you and the job that you want next, where can you go learn more? Where can you go right now to develop those skills? I'm a big fan of LinkedIn Learning. I'm a LinkedIn Learning author, and I teach a ton of courses there. You can find a ton of different hard skills and soft skills that you can develop there. There's a million different places online where we can be skilling up right now and capitalizing on this opportunity to focus inwardly and how we can best prepare ourselves to be an outstanding candidate. And even if you're in the midst of one of those programs to skill up right now, you can add that to your resume and just put in parentheses, in progress-- course in progress-- just to show that you are progress-oriented person who is developing their skill set. You can also check out the skills listed directly on the career pages here at Indeed. All right, my final, and I would argue, most important skill set to develop here is how to tell a compelling story in every single bullet point on your resume. This is what's known as the CAR method, and it really has to do with persuasively communicating your most transferable skills. Now, CAR in this instance stands for challenge, action, results. 90% of my job search clients who come to me, whether it's for a resume consultation or for our job search accelerator [INAUDIBLE],, they have existing resumes and cover letters that usually say, here's all the things I did. I wrote 500 campaign fundraising emails. I managed a team of 20 interns. I started a new initiative. And that's it. We just list off our skills. And even though I just had to list off your skills, that is just step one. By the time it makes to your resume, you need to give me more of the story, because people aren't just compelled by what you did-- they are compelled by why you did it. So here's what it looks like to flesh out that bullet point from just saying, I developed and implemented a new proposal and we are tracking system, to something much more persuasive. You start by sharing the challenge you faced. I transformed the sales close rate. That means the sales close rate was the thing that I was facing as a challenge. That's what was not quite good enough. Then we share here, from 38% to 74%-- the results you got-- by developing and implementing a new proposal and lead-tracking system. Now we know why I developed a lead-tracking system, and we know how it all turned out. Give me a little conclusion. So what if you wrote 500 fundraising emails? If you don't tell me what those 500 emails yielded, how am I supposed to be impressed? Give me the results. Show me the money. Tell me exactly what your hard work led to. Now, most of your thinking right now, I don't have hard numbers like this. I don't have a percentage increase that I can point to. And that's true. For a lot of us, it is hard to do the detective work of figuring out, OK, what exactly did my hard work actually yield? So here's another example. This person-- I actually broke this down with her in a live webinar once on this very subject matter, because I do a lot of seeking virtually right now. And she said, well, what I really did in this role was I left meetings, I managed logistics, and I served as the main point of contact. And I said, well, why did you have to step up in that way? And she said, well, the most impressive part of what I did was the fact that I stepped up after the sudden departure of my boss. I just took over my boss's responsibilities. And I said, wow, that's the story. We can't leave out the challenge, because that's the real heart of the story. That tells me so much more not only of her hard skills, but about her soft skills, her willingness to fill in, her willingness to step up, her willingness to lead, her commitment to the cause. We can do so much more when we know the challenge she faced. And then I said, well, what happened when you stepped up in this way and led a $40 million architecture project? I think it was a developer she worked for a commercial real estate company. And she said, well, I just finished the project. I said, did it finish well? Did it go OK? And I was like, was it late? She said, no, we finished on time. I said, was it over budget? No, we finished right on budget. Now, to you, that might be obvious. You're like, yeah, I just did my job, big whoop. But in this instance, saying that I faced this challenge of the sudden departure of a senior project manager, then I stepped up and did all of these things, these hard skills, and it resulted in a completed new national museum on budget and on time is noteworthy. So when you are describing your transferable skills, it doesn't actually matter the order of the CAR method that you use. Just make sure you're telling me more than just what you did. Tell me why you did it, the challenge you faced. And then tell me how it all worked out. How did it come to close? Did it work out successfully? If so, brag of your bad self here. Don't leave it up to the conclusions to be drawn by the audience on their own. Be explicit about this. Now, in today's handout that corresponds with our workshop today, I challenge you to try applying the CAR method to your top three most impressive achievements. Go ahead, write out your three past achievements that you think your next boss would be most impressed by and want to hear more about. And then apply that CAR method-- not just telling us what you did, but tell us what you were up against-- what were the odds, what were the high stakes like-- and how it all worked out. What was the result? After every single line that you write on your resume like this-- and mind you, it also can be applied to interview prep, and how you talk about yourself, how you write about yourself in your cover letter-- but after every one of these achievements, ask yourself this-- so what? Why am I telling you this? If you don't have a good answer or if it's not already obvious why I'm telling you this, you have more work to do. And honestly, I know that job searching can feel like you have 75 different versions of your resume, and you can hardly keep track of them all, and you're writing, and rewriting, and writing. And you can edit yourself forever. I get that. But if you feel like you've been at it for a while, you've been trying to apply the CAR method, you think you're done, sit back. Read it over. Read it out loud and say, so what? Why am I telling you this? And then, if it's not obvious-- if that answer is not clear in your CAR method statement-- make it more clear. Make sure you're not missing the point. I want you to know that, even though there's so much uncertainty in the world right now, I have seen with my own two eyes, through the work I do with job seekers across industries, that people are still hiring right now. Do we have to be a little more nimble, a little more creative, a little more persuasive than a year ago? Yeah. It's going to take work. It's going to take time. Before the pandemic hit, Randstad found that, on average, it takes job seekers five months to get their next job. Now, averages are just that. They're just averages. You could be well above average, and well below it as well. But I want you to know that there's an element here of faith involved. And I'm not a very faith-oriented person, but it's about making that leap of faith. It's about getting up every day, and betting on yourself, and saying, I don't know when, but I know I will get my next job. It is easy to feel hopeless. It is easy to feel like it's just not going to happen, and I guarantee you, it absolutely will. It's just a matter of time, and it's a matter of putting in the work and job searching smarter, not just harder. That's why you're all here today. And those are the resources that we have to help you become smarter at your job search-- not just taking the buckshot approach of really coming together in communities like this one right here at Indeed, or at bossedup.com, to get the resources you need to be one of the millions of Americans who is getting hired right now. So keep at it. Keep the faith. And I can tell you, from my experience with the first nine clients I worked with in my new job search accelerator, in the last three months, five of those nine-- actually, I just got an email from one today-- six of those nine have landed job offers in just three months. So it's happening. You will get a job. Hold out hope. Keep at it. Keep working hard. I know that it'll happen, if you put in the work and keep the faith. I'm so excited to be here to answer your questions. Brandy, thanks again for making today possible. And I'm happy to pause for a Q&A at this point. Thank you, Emilie. So let's get to some of those top questions that were voted. And you can keep voting on the questions, and we'll try to get to as many as we can here. So the first one we have you, Emilie, is as a career changer, how do you get past the HR screening where they're looking for people that have done the role before-- especially if they're using an algorithmic program to search resumes for keywords? Great question-- so AI screeners and applicant tracking systems, or ATS systems, are very much a virtual gatekeeper, which is why it is so important that you find a way to include those keywords in your resume. If you are going from accounting to data science, you need to take the classes on the side to get those keywords on your resume in an honest way and say, yes, I have SQL competencies. I have proficiency in all these different languages that I can't rattle off the top of my head, because I'm not a data scientist. Those keywords have to be there on your resume for you to even get seen by a recruiter, or to even be seen by a human being. We actually have some great resources at Bossed Up. I think I just did a podcast two weeks ago on how to format your resume for both the AI screeners-- the robots reading them-- and the human being who hopefully will read them after you get through that first screen. Now, I would argue that not all recruiters are looking for people with the exact experience of your last job. In fact, some of my clients tend to run into a barrier-- especially mid-career or more senior level people-- run into a roadblock of applying to jobs that they are 1,000% qualified, and recruiters look at that person and say, you've already done this job before. In fact, you might be overqualified, so you're not right for this. People like a narrative of growth. We are inspired to hire people who have what it takes, but also have the opportunity to grow in this role. I don't think it's 100% sure all of the time to assume that recruiters are looking for people with the exact experience of being in the past. So as someone who's coming in from another industry, you bring a different and valuable outside perspective, so play into that. Don't try to hide it. The other thing I'll leave you with-- one last tip-- a lot of my industry switching clients ditch chronological order when it comes to their resumes. Do not feel bound by chronological order. If you, like my client Holly, are going into occupational health and safety, and the last job you held was a therapy job, you don't need to leave your resume off with therapy. She led her resume off with a job that she held 10 years ago. So I like to think of it as a selective resume format or just ditching chronological order, and instead saying, here's my health and safety experiences-- boom, boom, boom-- the job I had 10 years ago plus this volunteer thing I do plus this internship I once had. And then here's my interpersonal communication experience. And under that section, she put her therapeutic practice. So you don't need to lead with that which is most recent. Lead with that which is most relevant to the job you're applying to. Thanks, Emilie. The next question here is, I have a ton of skills for my current career, but I'm not sure how to find out if or how those skills translate to another industry-- how can I do that? How can I see if my skills translate, then sell them during the interview process? So it sounds like this is where the CAR method comes in, right? Yeah. It sounds like it's a two-part question, which is-- actually, almost three-- one, she doesn't know or he doesn't know what industry they're looking for. So that's a pretty wide net to be casting. If you stand for everything, you stand for nothing. So we need to define industries that at least pique your curiosity. What are the industries that you'd like to go into? It cannot be, please hire me, please hire me, please hire me-- I'll do anything. That doesn't work. I know that's hard to hear, if that's how you feel. But if you don't have a compelling story as to why you care about getting into health care or why you are able to transfer your skills into food and safety, it's not going to work. It can't feel too random to the employer. So figure out a direction to start heading in. Even if you're not sure 100% of where you're going, as my friend Maxie McCoy, who wrote a book called You're Not Lost, wrote, you don't need to know the final destination to take the first step, so take the first step in the direction of at least what piques your curiosity. Once you've defined an industry or industries that you have your eye on, then it's about talking to those people who work in those industries-- friends, family, former colleagues, friends of friends, dogs-- dogs? Not dogs-- dog walkers, cousins, sisters-- whoever you can get a hold of, talk to them and ask them, tell me about the day-to-day realities of your job. What skill sets is your industry hiring for looking for? And then match up your skills and what you have from the past with what they're looking for. Is it a match? Are there gaps? How can you fill those gaps? So identifying the transferability of your skill sets cannot be done in isolation. I'd also argue that we talked about a few different ways that Indeed has helped make that clear on their career pages. Check those career pages out to explore and shop around. And then finally, communicating persuasively on how they're transferable absolutely takes first having clarity yourself on how they're transferable. So you need to do some internal reflection and thinking, OK, how can I make this skill valuable to that industry? And ask yourself honestly or talk it out with a friend who can give you honest feedback about it, and then make that case publicly using something like the CAR method. But there's a lot of introspection that needs to be done here first. And my final tip for if you really have no idea what you want to do, and you're feeling quite lost, is to think about leaning into negative emotions. We spend so much time, especially in America, the smiliest nation in the world, promoting something that's almost on the verge of toxic positivity of saying, no, no, no, no-- don't have any negative emotions-- when, in fact, feeling envious of someone else's career is a really helpful emotion to listen to. Who are you jealous of? Who do you find yourself on Instagram rage quitting the app because you just can't handle their [INAUDIBLE] right now? Ask yourself, who are your biggest career crushes? Whose careers do you have a crush on, and what about them is attractive to you? And that can be a helpful way to get you moving in the direction of your desire. I write a lot about this in my book, Bossed Up, so if you want more on just how to go from being kind of a hot mess-- which I will honestly admit to being in an earlier part of my life-- to feeling more in the driver's seat of your career, definitely check that book out. You can find it wherever books are sold. Thanks, Emilie. And we'll do one more question here that I know a lot of people are interested in. What are your thoughts on accepting a pay cut to gain new skills? Very personal question, because it all depends on what that pay cut means to you-- in economics, they have something that's really helpful known as opportunity cost. So I want you to really think about, what are the opportunities you would be giving up on to take a pay cut? If you are taking home more money than you need right now and you have golden handcuffs keeping you in the world of finance, or law, or wherever you find yourself-- which a lot of my clients do-- what does that money doing for you? Is it just sitting in your bank account growing-- which is great-- there's an element to that. Having a retirement fund is great. But what would the cost be to give that up versus taking a pay cut that means you are no longer able to meet your standard of living, or that your standard of living would have to change? So are you giving up a vacation every year, or you giving up health care? Those two calculations are fundamentally different. So again, it's never just about the money. It's about, what's the money doing for you, and your loved ones, and your family? Now, that being said, don't presume that you have to take a pay cut to transition careers. There are a lot of different presumptions there. Oftentimes, people think, in order to do work I love, I have to sacrifice my well-being. In the book, I call that the martyrdom mindset, and it's a very prevalent theory or value here in America in particular, where our nation was founded by the-- with the Protestant work ethic underscoring how we think about ourselves, meaning the work you do in this world is your worth as a human being. And it gets complex very quickly in calculating, if I were to take a pay cut, does that make me less worthy of a human being? How does that relate to my own self-image and self-worth? But I would caution you against jumping to those conclusions. Let's say you see a job as posted for $10,000 less than what you're making right now. That is the initial offer. That is not your final negotiated offer. I'm a big believer in the power of negotiation. So perhaps you get to three or four interviews in, and they are loving you. You are the perfect person for this job. They would love to work with you. And they say, well, here's what we have to offer. That is just the beginning of the negotiation conversation. So believe in your capacity to ask for more, and then do it. We have a whole free comprehensive-- I think it's like 70 pages long-- negotiation guide on Bossed Up's website at bossedup.org/negotiation. And that is my step-by-step series of strategies for how to ask for more. And then, if the opportunity cost of taking less pay is not going to work for you, are there other negotiables that can make it worth your while, like summer Fridays-- which my team and I have, which is basically, every Friday for the summer, we are not working? So there's lots of different ways for an employer to make it worth your while. If you connect, if they want you and you want them, don't assume that salary is not negotiable. It almost always is. So definitely a personal question to ask yourself-- really helpful to get personal feedback from a negotiation coach or someone who can help you walk through that decision. But try not to stress out about a choice that is not yet yours to make. So wait until there's an offer on the table to really start sweating it. So I know we're out of time, but just a reminder-- if you didn't get your question answered today, please post it to the community at go.indeed.com/-changing-careers. And if you found this to be helpful, check out our other Job Casts. Our next one is on showcasing your skills, so that'll build on some of what we discussed here today. And you can register for that, if you're interested, and watch recordings from past webinars on the Job Cast page at go.indeed.com/jobcast. And finally, we've curated relevant tips and information about addressing the impacts of COVID-19 on your job at indeed.com/heretohelp. It's important that you're not alone, and we're here for you. And last, but not least, thank you to Emilie Aries and everyone from Boston Up for joining us and sharing their wisdom today. Emilie, can you tell your audience a bit about how they can hear more from you? Yes. Thanks so much, Brandy. So if you want our comprehensive step-by-step job search guide, which my team and I wrote and produced as soon as possible, as soon as the pandemic hit, head to bossedup.org/jobsearch, where you can download a comprehensive step-by-step guide that goes into even more detail on the CAR method and all of these different elements to navigating the job search process with courage and with community. Thanks so much, Brandy. Thank you. Thanks for watching. Be sure to like and subscribe for more videos like these.