Create Your Figma Invoice Template for Management Effortlessly

Figma invoice template for Management

today we're going to chat about app mapping and app mapping in sort of the context for product owners and product designers um app mapping is something that throughout my career of being a product designer I think has become a foundational part of our process um and has continue to validate itself as something that makes teams more efficient uh more effective and just increases Clarity across the the board uh my name is Billy Sweetman like Jacob said I'm the head of design at Headway I've been doing product design for a long time uh I've had a background in game design before that uh I love designing things I'm constantly uh making things and exploring different spaces and and trying to do interesting things um and I think it's funny because I use app mapping in so many different aspects uh of my life when building or creating different things so like what are we going to kind of go over today uh today we're going to talk about how does app mapping benefit teams and what are some of the issues when we're not doing app mapping we're also going to do a little bit of a working example just so I can kind of show my process and my team's process of how we think about app mapping and updating different um different elements of the design as we're working through that and then I'll show some actual project examples so I can kind of show you uh a real world scenario of what an app map is used for and how it might look and be represented so let's talk about early product life cycle goals um now this doesn't have to be just product focused this can be features as well so early on in a product or a feature uh we really have a couple of goals that we align out obviously we want to launch something that's amazing that's usable that people enjoy using it hits business metrics and it hits usability metrics and all those things but early on really the things that we need to do is create clarity as fast as possible right now there's nothing worse than kind of trying to live in this land of murkiness not really understand what we're supposed to be doing or what we're building or where we're going through that and to do that we need to be able to iterate through as many ideas as possible um iteration can be slow um sometimes it takes time um but we want to speed up the amount of opportunities we get to iterate so we can create that Clarity uh and at mapping really does that in a very effective way um but a lot of teams don't do that right a lot of teams um that we've worked with and a lot of teams that I've talked to they kind of iterate slowly um and like you said they can iterate slowly because of that murky understanding and lack of clarity another huge offender for slow iteration is demand for visual representation way too early in the process we are visual by nature and that's how we kind of assess things are are in a good spot or not and it allows us to really dive into things but sometimes we ask for that too soon and another offender for slow iteration is late structural and data feedback right we're making decisions really late in the game Let's dive into these just a little bit more detailed here so of clarity a lot of times we get product briefs and they can be really vague to start out with right we were trying to navigate a space without setting a a direction um I've seen product briefs that are as simple as we need a trending section that talks to the top level products for customers and that's it and throughout the entire Sprint process we're constantly redefining what that product what that feature brief is and constantly working through it and trying to understand more elements that come that are required for that and we spend a lot of time trying to get that Clarity in there and um if we do we start iterating high fidelities too soon we start developing things too soon um without that Clarity we're just doing it and where it's slow and costs a lot of money so we really want to find that Clarity Sam another thing is we dive into the visuals too soon um I'm guilty of this I know plenty of designers are guilty of this product owners love to see visual stuff right away stakeholders like to see visual stuff right away um we love to see those things because it feels tangible it feels real it feels like the first step before building something um but it takes time to adjust that stuff uh teams can get really hung up on higher level design decisions in if we have visuals too soon we might be focusing on the wrong decisions because we're focused on what does a button say or what does the color of something look like instead of structural does this make sense and does this flow feel like it should does the data that we're representing and organizing make sense um and sometimes we can lose all of that because we're focused on visually what's in front of us so we want to really focus I I worrying about the data and the structure and that data and structure if those fundamental structural changes come in late they can cause lots of rework lots of lots of rework um it can be design rework it can be development rework and each one of those slows down the entire process and it can frustrate your team as well your team can be upset that oh I got all this information and I designed this out this way if I would have just known about this element or this feature or the specific thing sooner I could have designed this a little bit differently and better and now I don't have to go and re or completely rethink this whole process over and fun fundamentally change what I put together so that fundamental structural changes is is a really big offender as well that causes some of that slow iteration now iteration um it costs time and money and team happiness right depending on what level we're iterating at it can be really slow and it can be really expensive if we've developed a full product and we're iterating in that code base um and we are iterating and launching things out to customers uh not only can that be time and money but it can also be customer happiness or customer engagement um because we gave them one thing and then just kidding we gave you something else and we kind of play this pingpong effect with them um we might launch something and then go back to something else and change those things around um and that's not a good customer experience iterating in the High Fidelity design space that costs time and money too now it's not as much as it used to be right we've got Design Systems we've got component libraries we can move through those things a lot faster than we used to be able to um but it's still a lot slower than if we were working through an app app the last one is wireframe iteration right this is still low Fidelity um but we can still get hung up on some of those uiux decisions when we really need to understand the foundations that are going through there and that kind of leads us into app mapping so app mapping in um the way I kind of look at it is the systematic approach to designing the flow of a product that focuses on the data and structure over the look and feel this is a lot more of what's being represented on the screen how do I interact with those elements how does that get manipulated throughout the system um something that we do often uh even before app mapping is is understanding the data and entities within uh each product uh through an exercise called object-oriented ux um that we'll do before at mapping to really understand that uh going forward let's uh app mapping has different benefits for different teams uh different members on your team for designers one of the biggest benefit that we've seen um and that we've been able to experience is like rapidly taking Concepts to real flows within a 10-minute conversation we can completely reiterate how flow Works what data were being represented where how somebody might interact with product we can understand how that data is transformed within the system which is really important for designers to have those higher level conversations with their team right we can have those more elevated conversations really understand how our system works behind the scenes instead of just worrying about our one isol ated space for product owners one of the biggest benefits that we've seen is increased accuracy on estimates uh now this isn't going to be a silver bullet so your estimates are 100% accurate all the time but it definitely increases the accuracy of those estimates development is going to have an earlier time that they get to contribute and have conversations about how things are structured and they're going to have a better understanding of what's being built and they don't have to get up to speed as fast especially if you work for an organization that is still very much designed as their thing and then it kind of gets handed off to Dev and then Dev does their thing there's a gap in knowledge that needs to be uh that needs to be shortened there and app mapping will do that plus it's easier for product owners to align on vision and features with stakeholders when we start to map out uh complex prod and we can isolate specific features and call those things out just the sheer scope of how it looks on the screen can represent how complicated it is and how much effort might go into it and we can align on that and help have those conversations with our stakeholders the benefits for developers is really early contribution to the design right developers a lot times and teams they might not get to have those conversations early enough with product owners and early enough with designers uh but sure they do because it's a low impact exercise to do this it's a low impact meaning to do this it doesn't take up a lot of time and it helps to get them thinking about some of the things that they're going to have to implement later on in their process and some of those things are like those preliminary development of like entity relationships or like ERD diagrams and things like that really understanding how these things function like I mentioned before objectoriented ux is something that we do a lot and we believe is a great exercise for designers to go through but it's even better when your designers and developers and product owners are doing that exercise together and developing sort of the data foundation and the entities in your products together and then bringing those into app apping app mapping also has a ton of product and team benefits we talked a little bit about more iteration time right more collaboration time increased Clarity but these are the three things that we feel are the most valuable for for product teams more iteration time most teams that I know uh don't have unlimited budget they don't have unlimited time to develop things and there's really only a couple of there's like a short window that we're able to iterate on how we're going to build something how something might be structured how we can have uh things change throughout our system and our goal is to get as many iterations in that as Pro as possible right and if we do a lot of High Fidelity iterations we might only get two or three iterations before we got get something sent over uh we add app mapping in there and then maybe some low Fidelity wireframing in there maybe we get seven iterations because we've had some more conversations that were able to understand more deeply the things that we are building so it also allows us to iterate without getting fogged down by UI ux patterns and design related opinions or conversations I'm sure everyone's had a conversation when you're sitting in a meeting and we've spent an hour talking about what a button is going to say or what some copy on the screen is going to say but the meeting was really to understand how does a customer get through this entire flow right and so we can remove some of those by having this app mapping as part of our process more collaboration um the best part that I feel and our team feels about abing is we get more time to incorporate feedback as a group it's a low impact exercise it doesn't nobody needs to be a figma expert or a design expert to get in there and do this anyone can do this multiple members of the team can do this it can be done asynchron asynchronously um but it's easier to get that feedback in there and create those better estimates because your whole team is spent time working through an app map together and really develop that understanding together um and get out of that waterfall information uh Loop that we might get into and it kind of leads into this visible road map right which helps with the increased Clarity we create uh not only earlier adoption of our different concepts entities uh our flows product features but we create this visible road map for our projects and we can see how large the scope might be we can use it to whittle down our scope uh sometimes when we go through app mapping exercises will even go through and start to use a process called Moscow and actually on the app map itself Moscow out specific features as we're having that conversation and that really helps us develop out our road maps where things are going to be built out as we kind of go through so we're going to dive into a working example of an app map and kind of the goal here is for me to kind of show you all the process that we might go through as a team as we are Ming uh doing some app mapping exercise a lot of times like I said it's great for teams to work together so you want your product owner your designer uh your developer maybe even a stakeholder to have a conversation around this a lot of times it's also good for a designer or product owner to build this out ahead of time so that they can have a conversation about it with the teams afterwards and remix it and edit it and put some of that initial Foundation down when working through an app map right we're trying to find Clarity so this is an opportunity to put down questions that we might have about our product or assumptions that we're just going to go ahead and make and call those out based on our previous experience and things that we built in the past when we do that that'll help get that conversation going um so it's okay to not know all the answers as we're building on that we're just going to go ahead and put some assert some assumptions in there put some questions as we kind of developing this out so we can really uh get the conversation going and develop that Clarity if you uh are on figma or you are in the community we do have an app mapping kit uh that is out there now we are going to be updating that so this kit really just helps us think through how we map and what elements are important to us you don't need to use this kit you can definitely just use things like fig Jam uh Meo and you can use the default shapes in there um you don't need a chip to provide the clarity we like to call out specific things in our kit so we like to use that um but this is on fig Jam uh community so feel free to download it there uh we are going to plan updating it soon with some newer elements because like all of our design processes this is something that we do a lot and then we evolve it over time um because we learn new things at every proct project we learn things with every engagement we have um and we really try to bring all of that knowledge into these kits so let's talk about our Legos so we have uh two sets of Legos we have what we would call is component or screen or visible Legos and these are things that are going to be represented on the screen right so we have like a screen name we might have a page or screen section then we might have a component now we put component in there because we do a lot of design system work and we start to think through we're usable elements at this level because it's really effective to start calling some of the stuff out ahead of time uh so that when we get into the design we can understand oh this is a product uh a product representation or a product listing card and this data elements need to be um put on there uh page section is something new that we've put it in we''ve done a lot we break it up independently but we really like this because a lot of our Pages aren't just a long list of stuff they like to show the different sections and what's being represented in there a lot of those sections have different interactions so everything on the left is kind of how our screen might be structured and then everything on the right is actions that are going to happen so if you download our kit you'll notice that we have like an action card this is a user making uh a choice uh clicking on something swiping on something uh Cho choosing to delete something interacting with a uh a toggle of some sort that's going to change a state on the screen so that is something that a user might do and then sometimes we need to capture like user input so we'll put that down at the bottom this is really important for like forms so when a user is entering in a bunch of data we need to know oh we need to capture first name last name we need to capture street address things like that so this is a really important element for us to to have and really understand when some of this data is being put in on our newer kit that we're developing we've also added data actions uh so this is items that are being manipulated maybe on the backend so if you think a lot of the apps that we work on and develop are using are a lot of crow apps right we're creating something we're reading something we're updating something and we deleting something uh this data action allows us to get a little bit in that developer mindset and start talking about okay we're going to add a new listing to the database and then refresh the screen right so we can put those sort of interactions in here in our flow and in our diagrams to really help understand where we're going to go with these things so these are our Legos that we'll be building with today like I said these aren't the exact representations that are in the kit this is a new Evolution of our kit that we're putting together um and hopefully we'll have released here in the next week or so so that we can um get this to everyone's hands so to do an update or to take a look at an app map and really work through that a lot of times we going to get a brief right we're going to start a feuture brief or a product brief um or it's just an idea I'm a big proponent of taking some time and writing down the objectives ahead of time um so that you can think through what do we actually need and unpack some of that stuff from your product owner or whoever maybe it's the founder of the company or working on um and really redig esting what they said or what they wrote up into your own version of that so you can kind of confirm what you heard or what you read here so for example if we need develop an order management system that allows our customers to add to their order if it hasn't shipped yet right so let's say I'm ordering a bunch of t-shirts for a screen printing company and I've got some on order and there's a waiting period the way I'm reading this is like oh I want to be able to add maybe some sweatshirts to that order because it hasn't shipped yet so I be able to do that and then in there items that will affect the shipment date should communicate to the user that the data has changed so okay that leads me to start thinking about some interactions that we have there confirming yep I'm okay with this actually I'm not remove this item and the users should be able to remove items or cancel app a uh element in their order so this might be as small as a brief as you might get um I've seen on some product teams it's even less information than this right so there's it's not fully clear what we need to do but it's got a good indicator of where we need to go and we can take some of our past experiences and start flushing this out all right we are going to dive into fig jam now so this is uh an example of how I might start or have already started working on a app map um I'm going to go in and within the Sig Jam file I will put in these are the things that I need to achieve um in the list that based on the brief that we just saw so here might say we need to be able to show open orders so I got to make sure that we have that represented what allow product addition from an order also something that wasn't in the brief but if somebody's viewing products they probably want to be able to add that to an existing open order from that product view as well so it wasn't necessarily in the brief but we're thinking about the user here so we're going to start extrapolating some of those additional things we want to update shipment data and make sure that's communicated uh and we want allly removing of the items in the kit I will always have my Lego pieces kind of laying off to the side here and I will just duplicate and drag those in as I use them and then here we might have an app map that's already existing and so here in this product we have a home screen it's collection of information that the user needs write away as they're navigating the app like to put a little description on each one of these elements to really represent what it does um or what the purpose of it is underneath we have two sections we have my orders in the area to see a snapshot of four orders with the most recent activity so we can start putting some of these rules and and data controls right here in the in the descriptions themselves and if it's a little bit unclear sometimes we'll put in bullet points here uh so that's just easier to read in the my order area we're going to have a component which would be an order card in that order card we're going have order ID we're going to have total cost item uh item quantities and then right here it says we have the ability to edit an order so clicking into the order to go view view that order right so we might want to add some additional things in here right we need to have order status is something that we didn't put here and then we have edit order but we probably want to change that to view order right so we can start putting some of those additional elements in here and then from our order card what we said is oh if I click on an order it's going to take me to the order Details page so just clicking anywhere in the card we'll do that through that interaction another thing is we said well when I am in the my orders View and I say well I click on view all orders so now we can start to think about some of those layout that we might need we want to go to that order list here which is another screen where we're representing orders maybe this says more advanced filtering that's been called out here and then on the home screen we're going to have new trending products down below and these new trending products might be additional additional section maybe this is an app if it's a web app and you wanted to start thinking about some layout things you might you might bring some of these things across each other to kind of talk through those but we'll say this is a mobile app here so one of the things we need to show order status we already added that order status needs to be here we might need to communicate what the order status is on the order card itself uh so we can put that in there for our development team and say like open shipping back order made close or completed it might start calling some of that stuff out right away so that we can make sure that our de team has that we can start to pull that into their notes and elements there the next thing that we do is want allow product ad from an order so when I get into an order details we're going to have a lot more information in there right and we're going to call out specific things like order ID might have date of order date of order uh we might have the status shipment details but we need to be able to go add an additional product so underneath an order let's grab a component because within an order we might represent products right so this might be a product card in here and then product we'll have to think a name maybe cost quantity uh there might be um yeah we just put that down for now so name cost quantity under the product but then we might want to have a button that is going to represent the ability to add to this order so we're going to say what are some of the actions we could do on our order and one of those is going to be add to order and now this is only going to be if an order has a status of open and we want to make sure that we communicate rules like that now in fig Jam uh if you do your little noodles and drag those things around we like to put this in only if water is open because we want to make sure that we can show sort of the rules set that might allow or disallow this this might always be visible might be deactivated but we want to make sure that we show that some of the other things that we could probably do and I'll just duplicate from here is we might be able to delete or cancel an order and then we grab another Noodle and this will be similar right it might have another rule it says can only be if it's open or it can only be um if an order is still active but we need to be able to cancel an order as well and then in this add to order we can start to think through what are some of those additional screens that we might need or some different elements so maybe add to order I'll just grab a BL one here takes us to our product search screen so product search right and this might be list of products that I can buy this might be filterable right lists filterable by Price trending right there might be additional details for these products um and if we had already built a lot of this app map we might have all of this here already um and then we might designate how this represents itself um as an option and a way to communicate to designers some potential in here as well so we can go in here and say list of products that I can buy product search we might go uh either whole or we could say let's do whole page or for mobile bottom sheet and that's a way for us to represent that we can do that or a lot of the times we'll put sticky notes next to it might ask some different questions in here that's represented that might be needed for this grade like what is the effort for a bottom sheet versus a full screen experience and then you might tag your developer in here right because when we go to this added order and we start talking about timelines and effort we already have a full product search page and then we might just go to that and have it be a closed loop and when you select a product you add to an order and gets added to your order and updated and that might be easy to implement if we do a bottom sheet that might be a whole new component a whole new element which could take a lot of development time and a lot of effort to do that right and then we'll go down here we'll have our product listing this might have different data represented than itself here and that's something that when you're going through objectoriented ux you might start thinking about those things um what some of those different data elements are and how that goes uh or how that gets changed represented differently in these different views that will bring maybe another action card here and we'll say add to order and add to order is never really simple because there's always additional things like you might want to think through how what's the quantity am I ordering a specific amount are there any promo codes that I might do right there's a lot of questions that we can start thinking and we can start mapping these things out here and now when I add to order we want to communicate to our dep team that there's going to be a data action and we'll say user input for those two different things so user input will be amount need or we'll just say like order order form and then in here this might be amount promo code there might be some more things that want to add in there and then in there once we confirm let's go back once we confirm our order so let's say we're going to write and update our we're going to write to the database here and we'll also want to add things like backing out right we at this point we might back out of the order so I've confirmed my order and then I've updated the database so dat order with new price just say update order and then we'll say things like price change in our brief we had shipping adjustments right and any other details we have in here and as we continue to go through this process we're going to keep developing out and asking more questions and really thinking through this and we can now have a conversation with our stakeholder or our product team or our developers hey this is what I'm thinking this is how I think the flow is going to work I think we're going to go from order details from our order details if it's open I'll be able to add to the order or cancel an order then when I hit add to order I'm going to go to a product search view uh that maybe removes other navigation or is a bottom sheet and I want to be able to filter by these metrics and I want to show the products and this could be the same product card that's been represented here with maybe some things Rel load from it or or adjusted and I could start to map through this whole flow and doing this is going to provide that clarity and really start to refine that brief and make it uh even better like I said this is something that product owners can do independently as well you don't need your design team to get in here and do this you don't need these special things but mapping these things out helps provide some clarity um for the team and then as we're going through the brief we'll start marking some of these off striking them out all right that's done that's done that's done and then we'll have a flow that might look a lot more complicated than this for just what we assume is a simple interaction but now I've got a very good road map for my Dev team and I got a really good road mapap to start my design um and a lot of times it what I will do is I will copy and paste sections of this into my figma design and use this as the road map as I'm working through my different designs just so I can understand all the data elements that we're talking about and things like that awesome so um before we wrap up I want to show a couple of real world examples and just kind of show how these actually look and these are all using our old kit um that I think are are beneficial just to see that this isn't something that uh we just use once and they were done but they evolve and we iterate on them so uh here's an example of a uh a product that we were working on where we had to talk about uh shipments and and understanding all these different elements and you can see we get really specific in some of the cards here for this one we had to really talk about the data order the order of all the data and how it was represented in the tables people will be able to manually override these and then we'll put some additional notes in here that they might be sorted by shipment things like that and we'll talk about different decisions that might happen right we're going to save as a draft we can save as active um and when it's active do we at a estimated time of arrival date things like that and really have those flows ma through and then when we're done mapping this out we're able to this project specifically we're able to talk to the stakeholders walk them through the entire process get their notes and feedback and hone this in and then reiterate on this and then send it off to the design team um and this in this scenario I was operating sort of as like design Ops uh and and helping the product owners really map out design work we were able to send this off to the design team and the design team was able to understand everything that was on here how the data functions and really use this to build out all of their designs and map this out and ingly uh this other one was for another product uh that we were working on and here we started to color code out specific feature sets and this was for us to help manage our road map so so here we used the sections within figma to call out specific uh product features so for example vendor management was coming up and we identified everything that vendor management needed all the actions we need to do all the data surrounding it and then where did it map into the entire flow as it went through here we also did invoice ingestion and then also payment uh processing as a feature and payment processing you'll see have report generation and in the payment processing here and this was we were able to color code all our specific features so that when we got to Payment Processing which we knew was months in the future we were able to dive in and take a look review what we initially mapped out and see okay this is how we thought it would fit into the system and then we can come in here and update these a lot of times these Maps do become sort of living artifacts as you're developing and as you're working through your products uh which are are are really nice to kind of go back to and see the decisions that were made make those adjustments and kind of keep those there um sometimes these are just the foundational bit for a specific feature and then you might not come back to them again but they've set that initial uh trajectory and just help you move faster and quicker as you're iterating through awesome well I hope uh I hope this kind of give you a glimpse into how we think about app mapping and how you and Your Role can Embrace this in your process and you can s to see how this can speed up that quest to get clarity get out of those murky briefs and really create team understanding in alignment uh quicker and faster before you dive into full UI design full wireframes uh and even development um and something that you can use as a team to to have iterate and have discussions uh that's low impact if in 10 minutes we were able to map out almost half of what we needed from that brief um and build that a good foundation going forward for conversations and Clarity across the team if there's any questions in here Jacob I'll gladly use the rest of the time to answer do you find you have to map out multiple flows across web app and mobile yes so um sometimes you don't but when you start to think about mobile interactions versus web interactions there are times where you might be mapping out different flows across those two experiences I think a lot of about filter interactions for let's say complicated uh data tables or things like that on mobile you might have a bunch of buttons that you're dropping into bottom sheets so a separate page experience where you might be making selections and things like that and on web you might be doing that in a menu um so you could map that out as a single flow and then just put the the difference in the flow and say this on mobile we just need to represent it this little way put that in a section uh we've done that before or we've mapped out two different experiences depending on what's needed because sometimes in a lot of complicated products you might get to things differently on mobile because you're using a lot of the default mobile behaviors and things like that so um it is good to think about those things as you're mapping it out um and kind of have that in your back of your mind because that'll set you up for Success especially if you have two different uh groups maybe working on those different designs all right uh we have another one here just uh an appreciation for the Fig Jam file and the examples um so very very good uh we do have a question around um it doesn't show for some reason it doesn't show us the name of the LinkedIn user on streamyard but uh I believe this is Todd asking the question if I'm looking back and forth here H but do you share the Fig Jam to stakeholders they may not be techsavvy I feel like you kind of talked about that a little bit yeah yeah we do so there's been multiple there's been multiple situations with stakeholders that it's been super beneficial sometimes it's just to get them thinking about how complicated a request might be and it's a great way of representing that in getting them to have those conversations early so on some products we'll map stuff out have a stakeholder review iterate on that map before we get into the design and development estimation things because it helps us on uh really think through some problems in this like loow impact way um other times we use it to show the scope of the ask that they might be asking for and how expansive a product could be so sometimes we'll use ATMs for different talking coins but on I would say most of our projects we always do an app map for ourselves selfishly uh because it helps us understand everything and and build that Clarity in and on most of them we do share it with stakeholders as an opportunity to discuss like did you mean this when you said you wanted a user to be able to do this this is how we're thinking about representing that is that tool and then we can pull all that information into our design tasks and things yeah yeah he was also referring to like a CEO that that would also be included yeah yeah absolutely uh we've had app maps that we've used to represent like you know hey here's all the features that we're going to put in this next uh Sprint or this next quarter this is what we're going after and it might be a CEO with that conversation yeah all right Graham has a question uh how would you go about mapping out a larger app effort do you break it down by feature and Link those together keep them separate or how do you upkeep yeah so we've done it both we've done it both ways um one if features are truly siloed which I know that's not always the case but if they are truly siloed then sometimes we will do different files for each feature so we might have a global app map that then has links to the other app maps for those specific features where we just you know it's just too much stuff to have it all if we had it on one screen it would be like two million cards and noodles all over the place and we'll kind of pull that stuff out and then we might do short summary summaries on the main app map or where we share um a feature might cross over into another feature we might have a little section card that links back to that other app map so we can kind of think through that there or we'll represent it there um so sometimes depending on the scope or the scale of a product um we worked on a product management system and each feature and each section of the product had its own app map that all linked up to a main app map which was nice um and that's how we managed that some products that were a little bit smaller everything will be in one single app map and that's uh beneficial as well but um those are those are probably the two different ways I would say to represent it and it really comes down to your personal choice sometimes we started in one file and then we pulled it out in the mul files because it just getting too big um upkeep tips I think upkeep can happen like two different ways uh some app maps like I said sometimes they are just a foundational piece to get team wide understanding and then we don't go back to them and don't and we don't look at them again um because we've built the thing we're now going after it and then we might build another one for something in in the future um other products where the appm becomes more of a thing that team um is built around we will update those with um every time a new feature gets put into a Sprint process or a quarterly objective that at Map update is part of that process we might even pull in screenshots of the finalized design work so we can kind of see what that looks like um we might tag things uh with like future coming up in the quarterly it is might be the next quarter things like that and then that really becomes um like a a lighthouse for the whole team and the whole team was looking at that um an extreme example way back I mean this is a couple years ago we had a client who actually printed off an app map had every single screenshot of every screen next to the data cards and it was like on the side of their wall uh and they updated it um every quarter with a new print out uh so the whole team could see it uh which was an interesting interesting way to do to do that so uh hopefully that kind of gives you some insight in like how updated and things like that yeah we have a kind of a two-part question uh how do clients receive this work I'm assuming like how do they maybe it's perceive it when they're are they happy to pay for it and understand it's part of the cost and then this other part is do you charge for the workshops and the app maps and then follow up with estimates I don't think I don't think we do them as separate things right yeah we we assume a lot of times we assume every project there is going to be um an object-oriented ux time a bucket of time to do that and then app mapping is going to be part of that and we call it out one of the things that we've done to help clients understand app mapping is bring in like representations from other projects um so that we can communicate what an app map is and the value it provides and a lot of clients get that and they understand that right away and so they'll see that and be like yep we understand that's for clarity a lot of the times when we do it as a reestimation uh process we've committed to a period of time let's say we're going to design this out for 10 weeks but in the week one we're going to do this app map to really understand the definition we have a loose understanding of what we're going to do in those 10 weeks but then then we'll use that app map to go into a process called mascow which is like might have should have could have won't have and we'll leverage that as a way to indicate these are the features that we're going to have at the end of this this process these are the ones that we would we would like to have or we should have at the end of this process these are the ones that we' be great if we got them but we're not too worried about them these are the ones that just are not part of this um engagement and and that's a really good way to have a conversation of like hey we said we have 10 weeks these are all the things that we want here's what we're guaranteed to get done here's what we would we should be be able to get on and here's the stuff that um if we have time we'll get to it and that really helps us manage scope in in time and then we can have opportunities for conversations of like okay if we want to get these other ones maybe 10 weeks wasn't enough time maybe we need some more time based on the definitions that we um outlined yeah great question yeah I uh shared the Moscow method article that Andrew wrote a while back it's uh to help people understand kind of what that what that can look like um all right uh Graham says thank you for your reply before on his question I don't know if there's any other ones oh there we go great live stream appreciate it thank you sir thank you all for taking part of your day to come hang out with us yeah absolutely um I think we can wrap things up if anybody has any questions uh on YouTube or LinkedIn um you know you can either uh I think just Billy at Headway IO uh you can reach out to Billy um otherwise on LinkedIn like the live streams recorded it's like there uh you can just leave a comment and tag Billy or just leave a comment and I'll follow up with Billy and we can definitely get back to you um and then yeah and then um uh someone was asking about like when the new app mapping template will be out there um I just told folks hey we have the newsletter on our downloads page you can sign up for um you can follow us on figma community as well um you can follow us on LinkedIn obviously on YouTube well we might do maybe like a a quick overview video about it just that we made updates to it um but yeah wherever you follow us we'll definitely be updating about that it's available so um whatever Channel you choose that's best fit for you and your lifestyle Do It um where because everybody everybody's got their own thing you know oh great another great session thank you thank you thank you appreciate it I think we can end it here everybody have a good day and maybe I'll see you later take care