Streamline Your Invoice Agreement for Quality Assurance

Invoice agreement for Quality Assurance

hello everybody and welcome to this month's construction our contract Administration Practice Group uh with that I do want to hand it over to Douglas and Jim today to get started with today's presentations good afternoon everybody uh welcome to the call sorry we took a few minutes extra to get us all tied in there but uh I look forward to talking about quality here during the call dou welcome everyone let's go ahead and get started since we are a little bit behind schedule uh let's go to the first slide there Matthew um we uh see now I'm not seeing that on my computer as a full screen but maybe everybody else is um I just have it as a partial screen but uh the you know we include a shot here of a a sewing room and um I'll I'll explain that when we get through the slides a bit more but we're we're talking about chapter 7 uh and the practice guide uh quality assurance and quality control and the the one message here that uh that I would share is that uh quality assurance and control is a very simple process it's a it can be a complex procedure but it's simple to establish points within your fm where you go through a quality assurance process or a quality control process it's in your control and that's s of the perspective of the conversation today that this is as a designer or as a owner or as a contractor uh this is something that should be imperative to your practice and if it's done at the right time in the life of the project is painless um so that's sort of our kickoff Point Doug is there anything you want to add about in general what we're going to discuss no Jim I I think we're doing okay I trying to get us caught up on time here okay well let's go to the next slide Matthew um oh see sorry um that's okay we go to the next slide so we're going to talk a little about what is it what is assurance and what is control um the of course quality refers to the project requirement and in the contract documents as project requirements are established in the contract docum so this is this is where we start the basis of our measure what is the quality of the project and and there it is defined and then I wanted to touch just for a minute on what's the difference between assurance and control uh quality assurance are procedures that are in place for discovering defects or deficiencies or deviations uh this can be before the execution of the work or heing um in the process of the project it would include the products such as the the sub uh certifications that are required for the project or other actions um assuring proper products and services are uh are put into place so so that's quality assurance um Quality Control uh procedures in place for evaluating completed activity and and elements of the work uh for overall performance to the contract documents so this this may include testing and inspections um and potentially involves the finding uh and correcting of uh unsatisfactory constructions components that uh didn't didn't meet up to the standards of the project uh in ance with the the project contracts contract documents and the project requirements so that's a general understanding of what the differ between assurance and control is and we're going to talk about those um separately as we move forward so Matthew let's let's look at the first Slide the next slide Matthew as we're moving forward Matthew I was typing I was sending you a note uh the entire slides are not showing up on my screen either so I don't know if this is a global problem and everybody is in the same boat and they are not see the entire slide or not wanted to let Jim you know that I'm in the same boat yeah do you guys know is it getting cut off on the right or the left or anything it's it looks to me like that might be an issue just um globally for everybody right now the right in the bottom yep okay same same here all right I'll see if I can do some changes while we continue on with the call okay so first item to start with is is uh particularly important and who affects the quality of the project and as we started talking you know each participant has a role in the quality uh the architect or engineer uh Endeavors to to be sure that the required quality of work is being performed whether that's in the design phase or in the construction phase or in the I know occupancy phe uh and and of course their role is to be sure the owner knows of any deviations that are occurring and that there is a correction of those deviations huh so obviously Jim Reigns did not do a quality assurance on this PowerPoint presentation because whatever is going on with it it it got through my quality assurance program without being C and now it is in Matthew's hands for quality control he he is a I didn't do this on purpose but he's uh he's discovered an issue that needs correction so we'll work on that um but the the architect and engineer also uh are somewhat uniquely involved in start to finish the understanding of the intent what the documents were intended to mean what what the specifications were requiring when they were written and what the expectation is at the end of the project um and also to the extent of construction Administration phase involvement the participants ability to actually see the quality can be significantly changed we we've talked a lot in the past about being conspicuously present as a construction Administration person as a project architect on your project to to assure that uh you're there and seeing the items that uh need to be reviewed um so that you have that ability to impact the quality at the earliest possible moment if you see something that's a deviation so that it can be corrected in the most expeditious manner of course the general contractor is involved in quality um they oversee or supervise the work uh in a in a measuring coordinating and scheduling fashion so their respon resp ability uh is involved in the overseeing of the project um from the manufacturers and suppliers perspective they affect the quality as an initial source of materials and uh those programs may be going on in within the construction Community often you see on job sites delivery of materials with quality is job one don't need to be kicking on a car manufacturer but that that that that nen clature travels from the uh input of raw materials into the manufacturing process um all the way through to delivery and installation of the site and uh also the testing agencies are involved with quality um as a as a requirement of compliance through inspections uh on the project of materials and work in place so we have a list of folks who are part of the quality team on every job and this isn't an exhausted with but um but just touches on some of the major U major players Doug is there anything you want to add into the participants perspective I would add in to utilize the owner as well as a resource for the AE when we are doing our quad reviews work out in the field and what I mean by saying that is often times especially when you're dealing with large owners sophisticated owners uh College colleges universities medical facilities places like that they have their own maintenance staff and they are the ones that are going to be running and operating that building once the Project's complete and we're not making site visits they see things I often have found that affect how they're going to operate the building uh that I don't see uh access to Valves and sequences when they have to do this before they do that and is the installation the way the contractor proposing going to work for them so I would suggest uh that you also use them because the quality is not just getting the valve correctly it's getting the valve correctly so that it can be used and operate and function the way that the owner needs it to function so uh don't forget about those maintenance SK I've said it before uh during these presentations they are valuable resource and uh can be a a good help to you out in the field next slide Matthew hello Matthew Matthew yep sorry I tell you there must be goblins in this thing today can can you hear me I can hear you okay sorry I couldn't hear anybody there um did you not hear me Jim no I was completely disconnected so I don't know what happened there um let's uh you have uh we're one slide ahead manie could you back up one slide so let's let's focus on quality assurance uh for the next part of our conversation before we do that any any questions Matthew any hands up I didn't have any questions yet except for the screen resolution which I'm not sure has it gotten any better for everyone I've tweaked as much as I think I can on this end I'm seeing it now okay great cut off a little on the right but just barely so you can see the words right now it's good I wouldn't I wouldn't do anymore all righty looks like we might have had a question just pop up I'm not sure U it says are there any free templates for 0140 um I don't know I don't know the answer of that I don't either all right so Joseph it looks like you have stumped the speakers um I don't know of any either at this point that are free um templates for it um at this point as far as I know most of the templates or guide specs for those areas would most likely be something that is part of the purchased product either from arcom or from um BSD or trying to think of who the other big one is um spe l b yeah I think Speck link which is bought up by arcom as well I think those three main ones that are the guide specs I those are all part of the paid package as opposed to free um there may be some by doing a Google search that are people have posted their um but again those may also not be as um as thorough or up to date as the ones that you'd get from any of the three main suppliers of gu specs any any others uh let's see here there's another question box that came up here um it says that um Joseph did notice that there is partial availability at the wbdg ororgani I'll send that off to people in the group however the go-to webinar system is not usually friendly with copying and pasting of text um so if I can find that I'll get it to people if not I may add that link to the archive of this website recording when it is done so thanks for that Joseph and with that Jim back to you okay well as say quality assurance uh ensures a common understanding of the contract documents and if in the practice guide you wanted to uh see an explanation of quality assurance that starts on page 136 now I've captured just a few of the items of explanation there without trying to cop without trying to copy the whole list but I don't know what that is I'm getting a lot of feedback or something but um so quality assurance like verifying site conditions um you know before production of documents where you're taking field measurements or uh perhaps you're using as built or as constructed or record drawings to uh begin your process not saying that this is the case for everybody but certainly I would take those with a grain of salt and go to try to verify what what is reported there because it seems that most often most often there real inconsistencies um in the document uh reviewing the the documents for coordination issu before they are uh put out on the street for bid if that's kind of job you have as a as a design bid bill or perhaps there is a b uh driven project and then you're doing this coordination with the tea it involves the scheduling and sequencing of work um and uh involves meetings to resolve any that have been foretold by any of the steps that we've talked about here so these are these are this is a common language of assurance as you're going through the project in working with your team um and you know just sort of generically the the the architect engineer designer of record is is doing their Assurance perhaps mostly in the design phase the general contractor in the planning and scheduling phase uh for submittals for work for materials and also in the meeting of Standards uh being sure that mockups are practical or available uh installed uh when and where they need to be um and that they are a part of the project if that is uh you know some often you're able to often you're able to include the mock up as a part of the final work eding and and construction of those mockups may become critical the completion schedule these are all parts of assurance um so uh anything to add to that though as far as quality assurance or Matthew any question nothing uh to add Jim um any questions Matthew Jim I don't have anything uh to add Matthew I there any questions okay no there's nothing at this point you can keep going okay let's then go to the next slide um which is quality control um of course this involves procedures uh to ensure that uh the completed items meet a certain required quality and this is uh the following page in the practice guide 137 and some some of the the parts of the quality control uh involve uh comparing items to an acceptable standard which we have our specifications full of this language um is the work within a a range of tolerance and whether or not um those requirements are being met throughout our specifications either by our observations in the field or by specific testing and inspecting that may be uh a part of the specification requirements so often testing agencies are used to measure the kind of compliance and they're involved in various stages of the work from beginning to end of course the the con the general contractor The Constructor is is responsible for the performance in ance with the contract documents and they've got to provide that level of quality of product we perform quality control in the construction phase by our reviewing uh and observing work and rejecting if it's not in compliance um I want to come back to that just in a second but also the authorities having in jurisdiction may be involved in determining whether a law and ordinance or some other regulation has been met in the construction in a specific jurisdiction so uh again there are several parties that are involved in quality control so let's jump back to the rejection if not compliance because I think this is probably one of the most important parts of quality control um I'll explain it like this I'm I'm a parent uh often times I'm not a very good parent but I try to be and those moments where I have to be the parent and not the friend are the most difficult because it's time for me to say this is wrong it's not okay and it must be changed it must be stopped and I think that's one of the hardest things we do as professionals on any side of the team but it is absolutely critical that we do it the moment we know it needs to be done if work is not in compliance uh the most important next step is to get that documented as quickly as you can and with as much detail as you can include uh because the remainder of the project May well depend on how that rejection of non-conforming work is undertaken and you know Doug Doug and I have spent hours talking about this in various settings so I'm going to hush and and black Doug add to that as he wants to Jim I agree with what you've said um one thing that I always tell my general contractors and the superintendents that are working the jobs is for them to not rely on me or my consultants for doing their quality control that's not our role is to our role is not to perform Quality Control reviews and inspections for the contractor that is in their scope of work um for the most part they do it the contractors do it and do a good job but there are circumstances sometimes where they may get a subcontractor that they haven't worked with before that has issues or they getting a time crunch or they getting a money Crunch and uh Being Human they sometimes you want to see how much they can get away with you know it's not perfect but it's good enough and it may not be good enough by our standards or the own our standards so we still even though they're doing their job is quite in control we still need to do our job and not think that just because it's a near scope we don't have to have to do it and as Jim says when you see an issue raise it immediately raise it to the contractor and document it and inform the owner um don't my recommendation don't just see it take a picture of it go back write it up in your fre report and send it out and it's three four days later that it can circulate to everybody I say if you see something if the superintendent is not walking with you on the site where you're poting it out to him instantly go find him before you leave the site and let him know so he can get it corrected you don't want to put him in a position where he's proceeded on covered up work installed more of the same stuff in improper Manner and then he's got to tear stuff out and it puts him further behind uh the eight ball when it comes to time and money so as Jim says it's important to document it and document it quickly and inform form all parties as soon as possible and you know dou one of the one of the items that you added on the previous slide that also and I I left it off here is the owner's Personnel uh involved in the quality control phase it it often um shows respect and builds uh an understanding of concern between you and your client when you have their personnel as du to find you know their facilities uh individuals involved in this part just simply on your trip to the project and walking the job uh looking for their confirmation that something is happen happening at at an accessible level uh polish concrete fors come to mind as something that uh maybe could be looked at in phases along with the owner Personnel you know here's where we started and this is what it's going to look like partway and this is what is going to look like finished uh we've done this one small area are you happy with that so that they can begin to set their expect expectation mat but it also allows the owner the opportuni if they would choose to do it to be involved with the quality control at a time where they may be able to do something about um so Matthew there any questions there before we move forward yeah there was one question that came in uh was how much of the contract documents should be given to third party testing agencies uh well I I'll tell you my answer to that quickly and then let Doug get me out of the woods here um anyone that ever requests documents I give them the entire set because that's the basis of the project I I for example frequently here we only need the foundation drawings and the soils and the concrete section of your specifications we don't want the rest of it uh my my my professional belief is that that's a mistake because they don't have the full understanding of the scope of the problem and I think that they should have the entire set of documents I agree with you Jim um I have long held a position that you get the whole set before you get [Music] nothing I don't know I don't think that was me um you get the whole set or you don't get anything uh you need the whole set if you are just getting the foundation package or Foundation drawings and specs aren concrete you are not going to have a full understanding of the project and how it all FS together so uh Jim I agree with you totally n and is everybody still there I'm here okay we're here we're here sorry my my audio just dropped off sorry that's okay that's uh I'm I'm putting my that that last noise was from where I am and I tried to meet that out so um I'm going to do that every time it's it's it's try to get us through the noise here I'm sorry um it is just a day of fun uh fun little glitches yeah it's it's where I am uh for everyone to understand what that is they're running a planer um about two walls over so doing a little construction work um let's go to the next slide Matthew and it maybe one you have to do a multiple click on I apologize for that but um if there AR work words on it U I'll let you know so let's go to the next slide oh good uh so you know I put this in here because a friend of mine an architect down in southern times brought this up to me one time after a a webinar seminar sorry a seminar and he said you know the interesting thing he came up and asked me where I bought my clothes and um I get my clothes at Walmart or TJ Maxx or Target or wherever I can find the best deal and he said you know when you buy a pair of pants and you pay $15 for them what you stick your hand in the pocket what's in the pocket and uh it's this little inspector tab I'm sorry y'all the board doesn't look that long from here but what's in the pocket is the inspector's name inspector number six and his point was this that you think about a company that's making a pair of slacks and of course they make a lot of slack but you know they're they they've got $18 worth of exposure to you uh for giving you the quality that you expected to receive in those pair of slacks and he said what do you think you know the aggregate exposure is for us on a $120 million Hospital project um because that's really what we should be thinking about when we're looking at our documents for issu for construction so it is so simple for us in the early phases of the work to find these things that can be usually corrected um and it's so critical to do prior to the time that we put them on the street so you we have an opportunity through if if we if we are able to correct them before uh we issue for bids it's very simple if we don't uh then we have the opportunity of agenda to correct those documents and if we don't do it then we've got the opportunity to get in front of the work while it's going on and get the correction made so it I just thought it was a very unique perspective in the way to look at what by comparison some organizations have a a very detailed quality assurance and Control process and here we are in the business we're in and often uh as Doug and I like to to get around about our our structural drawings need our architectural drawing um at the printer job so that's a bad point dou is there anything you want to add to that just to emphasize the importance of doing that quality review and insurance control during the design phase as well as the construction phase uh it certainly makes life a lot easier uh during instruction when the documents are in good shape and there are not as many issues uh that you have to deal with Matthew let's go to the next slide and before you start Jim Matthew are there any questions or hands raised I don't have any questions or hands raised at the moment so I see we can keep going I'm uh I'm really sorry about the background noise I can't do anything about it and if I mute the phone I can't speak um so I'll continue to do the best I can um so there's also an opportunity for concurrent quality assurance and control um and by that uh I mean there's a quality control in one step uh may become the quality assurance for a next step or vice versa so uh in the manufacturing process you know there may be a checking of material that's required prior to construction um and and that is uh an assurance process that is being reviewed against the contract requirements then once that product is assembled there may be a a testing process that's a part of the quality control so if we look at something that uses natural resources like uh masonry and there are some tests within the product to build the ma there are some tests within the products to mix together to create the mortar and these may be assurances that then once are put into place there may be uh a water pressure tests required for the wall um as an assembly it may be a part of the Control process and and the reason to talk about this is just for us as practitioners to I think keep in mind that this this quality assurance and control begins when we start working on a project and really isn't over until we have closed that job out um and and there are these opportunities that travel back and forth through quality throughout the project in in the practice guide it gives some examples of a uh of a Project based on cast in place concrete walls that um HS their an example of concurrence quality assurance and control and I didn't try to put that detail here but it's an interesting thought process to go back and look at and again just to uh to tickle us to remember that this goes back and forth throughout the project anything else let's uh keep going okay Matthew if there all any questions let's go to the next slide so this is a document that we become all too familiar with um there as the question came whether they're free samples or not there are all sorts of quality programs either quality assurance or quality control and you may even get involved in some of them that are at the manufacturers level um that are international uh Quality Management Programs you know it's it's uh whatever it is that we do as practition whether we get one whether we get some of them we get them into place within our practices and then we use them to manage our work but particularly in farms that have had similar prototype project so for example you may do schools you may do religious facilities you may do the cond condominiums or departments there's a there's a prototype that is a basis of your practice and please please whatever you do learn from your past experiences and bring that information forward there is no better quality management program than one based in your own experience in your own F and those are the easiest corrections to make uh I'm sure never happened to any of you but um I've worked in B where we did prototype schools and we did change orders that were the same change order for the same client on three of those schools because we didn't get it caught and we didn't get it corrected that that's bad marketing um and you know when you have an opportunity to that it's a real mistake not not a or you be buying a lot of these on from the or CSI you ever form dou anything else just again emphasize the importance of contract actors have seminars there's a and there's a book that's published that helps them to go through and find and look for triggers keys for change orders uh there's a book I believe is titled contractor guide to change orders if you haven't gotten that and taken a look at that I would suggest you do um is written from a contractor's perspective but it it tells the contractors things that they can look for and when they're looking at a second set of documents that could lead them to a change order and if you know what they're looking for then you can know what you need to do to make sure that you're not doing the stuff that's going to trigger a change order when you put the doet this together um it's the the business that we're in change orders are going to have happen but we need to do our best to uh to minimize them and the best way to do that is to make sure that you have a a good quality set of documents Matthew let's uh move on we actually have a a question here that follows right into what you were just talking about we have a question here wondering is how do you get a contractor from any of the trades to follow and or enforce the information that is included in their quality control plan [Applause] it's in the contractor quality control plan I'm assuming uh the question is how do you get the contractor to follow their own quality control plan correct well if they don't I would say that you would have a not that you necessarily want to have to take any legal action but it certainly would be a strong piece of evidence in a court of law that they weren't doing what they were supposed to do if they're not following their own quality insurance programs um that's a that's a powerful piece of evidence for them to try to sit in front of a jury and they say what you've got here is cont purpose quality insurance program that says he's going to do ABC and he didn't do any of it uh uh that's tough to tough to defend against and one thing you might do is just remind him of that it's uh as Doug Doug said a little earlier that's sort of a tight rope there to walk because um as you said we're we're not responsible nor do we want to take on the responsibility of uh the the contractors required qu control so get going very deeply into the management of their plan if you will it you might start to take on some liability that you don't want to um but you know I my unfortunately in the marketplace today it seems like uh at the at the point when people really take you seriously is when you interrupt the flow of cash and and you interrupt the flow of money then everybody's attention is immediately focused on whatever is wrong so it may be that there was an opportunity to create some uh Milestones within the project schedule perhaps this is just an idea that the contractor needs to give some quality control report if there is mileston that re TI to the processing of their pay application like being on schedule um you know we Doug and I both have worked for clients that require a Manpower loaded cost loaded schedule and if you start missing either one of those components then it starts interrupting the flow of cash so may be that it could be tied to something similar to that any other questions no other questions at this point so I guess we can move on to the next slide yeah on to the next slide so uh the the point here is again just that there are quality control programs hit it one more time Askew uh there are quality control programs that you need to find the one to shoe the tip and uh put this project into place put those programs into place within your project or within your fund um you know I'm going up a little cost from $18 pants to $70 drop shoes uh if those folks understand the importance of it we should see um let's go to the next slide so this is something that Doug was talking about you can hear it one more time Matthew um you know one more time uh you need to be sure that the whole team is involved and often when you involve them and they a very front end of assurance and Quality quality assurance and control and you get them as as an important team player and they are really bought into the project uh this is something that happens in multiple phases and you know I can't stress enough how important those comment is about the facilities person now uh they know what they want they know their expectation they know what they need to see uh so involve involve them in these sessions um so that uh start to finish I got to go um Matthew is there any are there any questions any not seeing anything at the moment i' like to add to the next slide but as you do that I'd like to add in here uh depending on the project that you're doing the owners expectations uh the products that you're using there are many different things that you can do to test for quality and as Jim says make sure you get the owner involved there the there's different types of tests and different price points to go with those tests and it really is an owner decision as to what he wants to spend his money on um get them involved if you got an owner that's sensitive to buildings that have had leaks you may want to uh have more extensive testing done on your roof and window your your building skin um and he may be willing to pay for that you got an owner that has not had those issues he may see it as a waste of money so um as you're preparing the documents talk make sure you get that information from your owner what are they sensitive about what is it that they want to make sure they don't have problems with and then what can you put into those documents to help enforce that and and check by doing some additional testing to see to that those owner expectations are going to be met and know uh project that I worked on was uh on the coast North Carolina on a college campus and this particular owner had issues because of the high winding range with leaks and prob 90 to 100% of their buildings and they said they did not want this building to leak and so uh there was additional testing of assemblies once they were installed that we had in the documents if the owner knew B and agreed to pay for up front to make sure that he didn't have those issues on that building and uh once that project was completed I ran into that owner at a webinar and uh not a webinar seminar and uh he mentioned to the audience that they had had very few buildings on their campus that that don't leak and that one was one of them and it was because of those quality control quality insurance measures that we put in place because we knew that was a key issue for him and he was willing to pay so that he wouldn't have to deal with those projects or problems so again it's the owner's money um doing a whole building their leakage test is expensive and may not be warranted but that's not our decision to make that's the only decision we make we can advise them and give them the recommendations as to whether we think it's advisable to do it on this particular project or not but those discuss the owner's got to be involved you've got to have those discussions with with the owner as you put those documents together well that's a great segue dug into this slide is that that the and the ability to to manage quality it depends on all the team members being committed to it and and capable and involved throughout the process um and and that as do just said that the owner is very realistic so if they want a certain sort of facility then there's got to be the budget there to do that um I've often observed that firms that I work in uh you know would do a uh midsize sedan level quality of work which was very acceptable and it got you there but it wasn't the you know uh European Sports Car version and I'm doing a webinar so so that call you when I'm done that is um important call you when I'm done as the owner budget goals and and schedules uh being realistic and then we as the designer uh have to be capable of performing at that level in North Carolina you can do any sort of project that that someone will hire you for with your license that doesn't necessarily mean you should go and try to do that kind of project uh so that you're working within your capabilities to manage the quality uh of what that project may be you're working in familiar territor for example and that you are capable of defining what the requirements are for that sort of project um because there are those that uh that are are important to uh be involved with at the right time in your career and then also you've got to have a general contractor that has the capability uh to perform to supervise on this kind of a project and to uh provide conformance with the contract requirements at the level that they're trying to work so as important uh for us as designers to work in the right market so too is it for the contractor um do anything anything to add about the team or Matthew any questions I don't have anything anything to all right well we have two questions here I guess one question one comment the question coming in here uh ran into an issue the owner's expectations and requirements were beyond the market norms and the contractor despite everything fights those requirements what would you suggest that the contractor is obligated to fulfill the requirements of the contract documents whether it's what he did on the last job or not or whether it's what he's done over his entire career or not um saying well that's not industry standard or that's not a code requirement or that's not what I did on the last job is not a valid excuse or reason for not complying with the documents he needs to comply with the documents and if he doesn't comply with the documents who's not in conformance and you need to go through those contractual procedures to deal with it whether it's holding payment or sending out a notice of non-compliance at work or uh getting bonding companies involved there there's all those things that we talked about in the past that you can do to get the contractor to do what he needs to do but him trying to rely on industry standard uh when the contract is clear the documents are clear that it's requiring more than that is not an an excuse and it may be that there were some opportunities missed uh that you learn from this you know for the next project and perhaps pre-qualification you know of the contractor I think I understand the question and and I've heard it to before well this is this is beyond industry standard and you can't expect me to do that well yes I can because it's clearly spelled out here and I think the key word do use this clearly you know if we if if in fact you're owner expected something Beyond industry standard it's really important that that was captured and as a part of this contract and to add on to that if you know that that's going to be the case if you know that you're asking them to do something that's above and beyond what would normally be expected let them know upfront mention it emphasize it don't just mention it emphasize it in in the pre-bid conference so that all the biders know I need to include this to my price emphasize it in the preconstruction conference so that the contractor knows oh he really meant that I still have to do that if there's a pre-installation conference involved in whatever the assembly is installation is which I would assume it would be if you're going above and beyond uh industry standard emphasize it there as well uh communication solved a whole host of of issues so just if that's going to be the case you know that the owner is looking to something more make sure that it's communicated and well understood all right there's a there's a followup to that um but I don't know that we are also getting right on the hour here I was wondering is there then a way that you could put a dollar value um oh actually they said disregard that last entry so we're going to just disregard that last question uh there is a comment here though that does say that at least George here on the call says what works for them is that for their projects done in dim with Revit um once completed they use the Navas Works Clash detection program to find any problems in the drawings and that's been a really good help to very good quality uh Assurance on their end that was the other comment we wanted to add here um I have no other questions so I guess if you want I can go to the next slide here Jim and we can get wrapping up at the end of the presentation here sure just one second I got to push a couple of buttons here and that looks like we're at at the end I would just like to point out it's I've seen it seems to me anyway that a lot of the uh younger members of our profession in my opinion tend to rely on the technology too much uh Mavis works is a great tool but there are things that Mavis Works does not always catch um there's there's no sub Institute for a good experienced person going through documents and doing a good review of them uh relying on Revit and and these spec writing packages and all their tools they're not the answer and you need to know how to use them and you need to know how to put a building together first and foremost uh and not just think oh it's what done in RIT was one through nvis works is going to eliminate all our issues my experience it doesn't work that way well I think that's a great close D um and you take a look at the screen here it says introduction to Construction contract Administration it's not necessarily a start uh over from the beginning but uh a fresh look at what are some good ideas to undertake in the ca pH so Matthew if we don't have any other questions or comments um I'll turn it back over to you and say thank you to everyone and I hope you have a great holiday season and look forward to next year all right well the only uh comment we had was after Doug's comment was a uh a very um I guess boisterous yes his Doug's comment saying uh I'll take paper calculations and human interaction any day so uh with that as you see on the last screen here just thank you again for today's participation sorry about all the little weird technical glitches we've had throughout the call um but I hope you still got some helpful information um but with that you do see Jim and devis's information at the bottom if you do have any ideas you'd like to see us present in future month's topics please feel free to contact them directly or you can always reach me at M fox so MF CS at csin net.org it's the email address for most of your medium requests come from yes Douglas go to the next slide cuz our email address is AR shown up on this one oh my apologies let's see about now hopefully that should be on the screen for you uh so with that again everybody thank you for joining today's call so with that uh if you would like to disconnect you can do so and we hope to see you next month um for the the new topic of introduction to contract admin again thank you everyone you have a good day