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hello everyone out there it is a great joy to welcome you to uh this Edition our latest edition of the IU webinar on the future of higher education and uh today uh we will be speaking about the future of higher education and financing and discuss just what a well-financed higher education system might look like for this we have a three formidable distinguished speakers uh one it would be Roberta the global lead for tertiary education and Senior education specialist at the World Bank Roberta wonderful to have you Peter Martin professor at the Department of Education University of Oslo and also extraordinary professor at Stellenbosch University in South Africa as well as a fellow at The steinhardt Institute for higher education policy at NYU in the US and then finally paulazar a social prophet and North star distinguished professor at Case Western Reserve University and also honorary professor at the universities of Cape Town and Nelson Mandela University in South Africa um it is a great pleasure uh we are speaking about financing and higher education and of course that is a theme that is uh under our fingers and quite pertinent to anyone involved in the sector so please allow me to make some first remarks and then we'll get started with the discussion um so what is the future of higher education institutions and what will they look like in terms of structure and perhaps in terms of their mission in her welcoming address at the IU's 16th General Conference uh last year in Dublin in uh at the University College Dublin the assistant general sorry the assistant director general of course for education at UNESCO Stefania janini underlined some of the results that came out of last year's World higher education conference in Barcelona that I'm sure many many of you attended or followed higher education is part of the right to education under public goods number one a strategic Force towards more sustainable fair and inclusive societies number two but then she also challenged the sector that universities must more forcefully engage as institutions of learning research and service to society to do so they must one democratize access to higher education Foster a new Ecology of learning one that nurtures critical mindsets and navigates the complexities of the world and third strengthen Democratic societies Foster citizenship equality and through transformative education contribute to just and sustainable societies for this we need to rethink higher education's disciplinary structure forms of delivery and governance the world higher education conference came up with some key catch phrases and I'll just be very very quick here Equitable sustainable access a holistic student learning experience to shift from a disciplinary silo or disciplinary silos to enter and transdisciplinarity to come up with lifelong learning approaches that offer flexible learning pathways to shift from a hierarchical and weakly connected institution and or a weekly connected institutions and programs to a more integrated approach an integrated system with diversity of programs so in short the transformation of higher education I guess in order to be more transformative in consequence requires both the reimagination of higher education and quite frankly money so to discuss both these pillars and how they interact depend on each other and we are gonna again delighted to have our three formidable speakers with us today and I give the floor to Roberta to kick us off with a few remarks on the world bank's latest framework steering tertiary education towards resilient systems that deliver for all let's hope Roberto Global series thank you very much thank you very much Andreas what a pleasure it is for me to be here with Paul and you on this panel today and I look forward to the conversation I really do I'm excited to have a chance to talk about higher education and financing sort of outside of the rigidity of of trying to assess models or trying to come up with formulas which is often what these conversations turn into and this one is going to be much more about how we use higher education financing and tertiary education in the parlance of the World Bank since we talk more than just about universities and we are talking about multiple forms of delivery um but how we can accommodate all of this expanded access all of this diversification of systems with the funding that exists and with a maybe an idea to expanding funding sources or becoming just much more efficient and thoughtful about how how and what we fund so I'm very much looking forward to this new kind of a conversation around the topic which I applaud iau bringing to this forum because you know it's it's very easy I think to keep stealing things down to the economics of higher education and it's nice to actually have a chance to talk about the ethics and the sort of the contextualization of higher education financing outside of of just money so in that I will say you know this this idea of what is a well-financed system uh that was in my My article that I wrote for iau's Horizon magazine emerged actually from a conversation I was having with African Scholars where I was talking about the steer framework and many of you may have sat through my presentation I'm not presenting it today much to the relief I'm sure of those who who have sat through it although it is a really interesting skill to me uh framework for thinking about policies and effective sort of agility in looking at the preparedness of higher education systems for all of these Dynamic changes that are hitting the sector in different ways but in certainly some shared areas and so the stair framework focuses on five organizational pillars that that one can use all of them some of them in assessing the sector in your own space for Readiness and Agility and those are strategically Diversified systems do you have the institutional types that are needed by your stakeholder Community to address all of the Strategic needs that tertiary education can address is it is it agile is it articulated so you can move from one institution source to a type to another type does it allow for a lifelong access to higher skills development and other sort of exposures to further learning through the course of a life the second one is technology the t is obviously technology we don't need to talk about technology except to say that you know everyone's using it maybe uh to the detriment in some ways of what they're prepared to accommodate through technology in some ways because it's transformatively useful and that's a complex conversation for another webinar the third one is equity Equity is a conversation uh concern for all of us here in the session today for everyone working in higher education expanded access isn't necessarily Equitable expounded financing is not necessarily Equitable and so considerations of equity and all of these transformative strategic interventions are clearly is a clear importance for all of us the the fourth pillar is efficiency and efficiency is sort of where this conversation about financing usually lands uh do you have the funds you need are they being spent properly um that is obviously an important consideration there it is couched in other forms of efficiency uh are you are your managers trained well are your you know your regimes and your legislative environments defined in a thoughtful way that allows for agility and adaptation in the delivery of tertiary education that's another kind of efficiency that we we look at and consider and then the last one is resilience and I think this conversation about what is a well-funded higher education system does actually tie well to this concept of resilience in this time of transformative change with every impact today we're talking about artificial intelligence right and all the impacts of new technologies on learning and on assessment on uh strategic utilization of new tools but also on the change of the work Workforce this is a resilience question for tertiary education can the education system manage in that space all of these things come back to money and so then I'll move to the point of this conversation today which is about the financing tensions in which all of these policy pillars exist and this idea of financing for strategic aims outside of Labor Market outcomes and financing in a way that stops the traditional model of financing inputs faculty salaries the operational costs of institution to finance things strategic outcomes and that's something that I think we will all talk about today but is a key consideration for World Bank support for financing reforms in the countries where we work this idea of steering requires you know this concept of maximizing the value of these Investments and by Investments I'm not just talking about public Investments but also personal Investments we often talk about private but private kind of mixes between private institutions private providers the private sector in this case I think we really are talking about personal Investments right the opportunity cost of attending higher education but also the spend how much can and would somebody be willing to spend on their higher education experience this is something we're going to talk about more today and I think it's something we cannot ignore in the equation of what financing looks like for the sectors anymore so I hope this conversation is going to be very non-prescriptive we know it will not be a application of sort of uniform thinking around how we should Finance higher education what does it look like for any one place it's going to be different from someplace else it does nonetheless require purposefulness which is why we again refer back to steering right steering is a purposeful activity that utilizes lots of inputs but directs activities and strategies and financing in a way that can lead to a goal that hopefully is one that has been defined in a shared manner or an outcome that all stakeholders agree is important so with this I will turn it back over to you and to my fellow panelists for what I hope is going to be an Engaged and long conversation especially with questions and answers coming from the audience as well excellent thanks so much Roberta for firing up uh indeed steering here it is uh steering tertiary education and what I really like about it is that we get a uh a definition of what steering means on page four and it is the verb to direct the course to pursue a course of action and there's my first question to uh all of us really is uh steering it means that there's an actor an agent so to speak if there is the verb to do so and there's an object so quite frankly the the basics of grammar uh and I question what who are the who is the uh the noun who is the subject in this equation so to speak uh in this grammar in this uh in the sentence um is it the governments is it the higher education institutions who are the stakeholders but uh that's just one of the things that I'm questioning um let me uh move over to Peter and uh ask Peter for some first remarks on the concept of steering thank you very much um Andreas and it's a great pleasure as Roberta already already was indicating to to have a chance to to contribute to this panel and to discuss and address these these key questions around financing around funding of higher education eloquently uh explored already they go much further than the funding per se the models the formulas so let me start in in reflecting on this this concept of steering on on what in my view is a basic question that is addressed in the transformation of higher education currently and that is the question what kind of University do we want for what kind of society it was the question of steering is of course related to objectives you want to know in which direction you want to steer um higher education and in order to get an agreement and an understanding of the nature of the transformation in the direction in which we want higher education to develop we have to agree upon the main objectives and Roberta introduced already a number of the key objectives around sustainability equity and uh equality um around um objectives that to a large extent are Global but of course in every society there are specific objectives which need to be addressed and in my view the notion of steering isn't so much about who holds uh the wheel um but how can we agree upon the direction in which we want to to move higher education and from that perspective in the the further elaboration and conceptualization operationalization of this notion of steering it is important also to identify what is the role of the university in the university community in it because it's not like a flag in the wind waiting for the environment for society to tell the higher education community in which direction it it wants to move it has a clear and very important role in society of development because of its key um mandate in developing and transferring and and creating knowledge so as a knowledge institution what is that direction what does steering mean and how can we create circumstances in which we can get a better understanding of and also a clear agreement of the the direction in which higher education should develop and that in a context where participation all around the world has increased uh Africa is is still at a relatively low level but if you look at the the growth patterns in Africa also their participation is increasing and the demographic developments uh as as discussed for example in Europe indicate that by 2035 2014 at least 40 percent of all students in the world would come from Africa so what does that mean as part of the the question on transformation and the final issue to to address is uh the way in which uh universities communicate because I think that is a feature that hasn't received the kind of attention that it should in the public and and academic debates about higher education but that's crucial how can we stimulate University leaders to become more effective in communicating and in contributing to the discussion the overall discussion about what kind of University or what kind of society but also contributing to a further uh understanding of an agreement on the the objectives the aims with respect to higher education and with that I give back to you um Andreas and also look forward to the further conversations around uh this this key topic that we will have this afternoon thank you thank you very much Peter so yes we'll come back to your three major points in the moment first let us go to Paul and uh First Reactions on the concept of steering that the Roberto kindly shared with us and and then we'll dig right in Peter you're absolutely right uh communication uh you know what kind of direction for a higher education more generally um these are the discussions we will be speaking about indeed but first two Paul thank you yeah good morning good afternoon good evening uh this is a wonderful Forum uh for us to share ideas about the current state and the future of higher education I I think this the framework helps us to uh Identify some of the key challenges as well as opportunities that we need to think about um in thinking about a higher education generally and and where we're going uh you know Andreas the two issues perhaps we might want to focus on uh what are the challenges that we're trying to address and who are the actors who need to be involved in addressing those challenges and generally in terms of the challenges uh you know issues of institutional Supply and access are critical that of course also has elements of affordability of accountability and so on and so forth and then secondly the the the question of is institutional inputs uh you know so it was made that you have been focusing uh you know too much perhaps on inputs and that we need also to focus a lot on the outcomes uh the impacts of courses still remain relevant uh in terms of for example The Faculty pipeline which is a challenge in many African countries where you know institutions are growing much more rapidly than the availability of human capital in terms of faculty and high level staff and so on and so forth and then there are of course other inputs that one can talk about but thirdly is is the quality of institutional outputs and here uh you know I think this dfm which helps us to Think Through um and one is talking about the quality of graduates the quality of research you know the impact of of that research and so on and so forth and then our fourth is is the question of institutional uh connectivity or connections with Society with the labor market Market with civil society with you know producing Civic awareness and so on and so forth that is politically critical in sustaining Democratic uh societies um and and of course we are all emerging from the covid-19 pandemic uh what are the implications what lessons have we learned from the covid-19 pandemic and what are institutions trying to do in addressing those lessons uh some of course are in a hurry to to return to the Past in a restoration agenda uh you know pre-covered ways of doing things which of course in my view after a major crisis but that's probably a waste of time others are trying to you know graft some of the lessons into reforming how they do business so a reform agenda and others uh you know saying the the crisis are so deep and the impact so uh you know abroad that we need to think about a reform agenda I mean a transformation agenda uh really transforming how you investors uh uh you know do their business so the challenges uh I think uh you know identifying them is is quite critical but also identifying the actors and certainly the actors include uh the state the state will always be a major character whether we're talking about financing establishing the regulatory environment uh for the operation of the higher education institutions um and and then of course the students uh critical actors because after all the education is for them and increasingly they're the ones bearing the costs of of Education in terms of rises in tuition and these and so on and so forth and and another you know key player has to be the private sector uh you know and and hear their challenges as we would uh we'll discuss later the ways in which the private sector certainly in Africa plays a role in higher education apart from Simply you know acquiring the human capital that has been produced from the universities to what extent are they participating uh in in creating institutional uh you know capacities uh that will produce the kinds of graduates that they want in addition to that of course in the context of Africa is the role of international uh you know Partners International um um you know players and here one is talking about uh you know the World Bank the IMF the African Development Bank and and the whole range of other International Players what is the role that they are playing uh in this landscape uh and and of course Society itself uh you know broadly uh in terms of civil society and so on and so forth has demands that it puts on higher educational institutions and and finally perhaps one can talk about the role of uh you know the um philanthropic sector uh in in Africa which again is important both in terms of thinking about uh the diversification of revenue streams and the challenges there too and and another critical player is of course the African diaspora to what extent is the African diaspora playing a role in the transformation of African universities all Peter Roberta you've put a lot on the plate um let's uh try and work through this one by one um thank you very very much for this First Reactions indeed and setting the scene um what uh of course comes to mind is when it comes to money is uh the strategy investment so basically uh how convincing is the higher education sector globally at the moment in making their case in stating the relevance and value of higher education to society uh and I think we all agree that there's much to be done and it would be lovely to have your First Reactions maybe a little better you will you start yourself thank you yeah happy to and I think this plays on a point that Peter made very clearly in his statement as well which is something we all agree on I think the universities must do a better job it just in every possible way in communicating their value to society and including the the Beyond knowledge value to society as well it is now a highly politicized uh space in much of the world this higher education narrative what is the value is it worthwhile are there alternatives for students to skip University to skip higher education what is the value proposition University leaders have to be able to to offer that value proposition in a two-minute sound bite and a 30 second sound bite I mean because they know it they know what their proposition is and if they don't know it now is the time to sit down and really think about that and we talk a lot about in our space we recognize this fear of vocationalization of the knowledge agenda right I understand completely this fear or this it's not even a fear it's this deep reluctance to look at higher education as a vocational experience as a vocational provider and that's completely historically reasonable take except today students want to know what they're getting from their education right it isn't just enough they're going to become better people more interesting people which we know they are they want to know there's going to be a job on the other side and that it's going to be a worthwhile time that they have spent the university leaders and faculty can actually explain the skills that they develop through their curriculum that almost reverse Engineers this skills question what can they do when they finish University so many things they can write while they can think well they can ask important questions they can debate and work in teams well all of these things with employers Clearly say they want universities can provide but they do an awful awful job at explaining that and this is the time of year as the exams come through graduations come come out students start deciding where they're going to go to school there'll be articles and newspapers all over the world explaining why higher education is overrated and each University president each universe Mercy Vice Chancellor should have a very quick response to that that says actually here here's what we do this is these are the ways in which we make our students lives better and our communities stronger and our democracy is stronger I mean everything we know that they can do but they just don't do a very good job being on the front foot of this conversation it's responsive and reactive a little defensive and it would be nice I think and really important actually as the policy debates rage around Investments and further Investments expanded Investments private personal Investments is it worth it they need to be able to say how it is because we know it is and the research supports it that they should be able to articulate it better in my opinion thank you thank you very much Peter right over to you yes I fully agree and and um I would argue that it's extremely important that University leaders learn to become more proactive and not wait for for questions about public and private investments in their institutions we all know and as Roberta was indicating research shows it uh what the the public and private in investments in higher education what they bring in return what the advantages and the the benefits of higher education are for society as the key knowledge institution in any society that doesn't mean that there isn't a need for the transformation that we addressed at the beginning absolutely but um in order to also make sure that the support for higher education the financial and and the broader political socioeconomic support uh remains and and continues to to uh to make um the um the benefits of higher education for society possible we have to make sure that the universities realize that they're no longer an isolated isolation institution relatively in the margins of society but then at the core they're more important than ever before but part of society is seeing them as Elite as being part of the problem where previously they were part of the solution to any problem now they're part of the problem and contribute to inequality as um also a scientific academic studies argue so what is it that universities have to do again what Roberta introduced is is absolutely a key issue communicate proactively have 30 seconds uh two minute but also response is ready but also think through the way in which communication has developed over the last 20 years it has professionalized but it's become more PR than communication rethink communication and make sure that the university does Justice to the trust of still a large part of society in higher education by making a convincing case of the importance of higher education for society so this is a key role for institutional leaders where really a lot of progress has to be made Peter you just mentioned institutional leaders and we indeed have an Institutional leader right before us Paul so it is a bit mean of me to actually uh throw the questions that Peter and Roberta have just posed you know what and so I'll just pass it right along what is the relevance and value of higher education and you as a university leader what is your two-minute response uh that uh the two others were asking for all right thank you so much yeah I agree with everything that has been said that we have to be proactive and communicate very clearly so um you know I I I usually tell people that uh universities uh University education provides uh what I call the four eyes uh intrinsic intellectual instrumental and idealistic values uh the the intrinsic values of which higher education are in the sheer job of learning for its own sake asking the big questions making discoveries uh cultivating a lifelong quest for learning and developing passionate individuals and passionate Learners the intellectual value is is embodied in the very you know sort of capaciousness and versatility the content richness and the treasures of knowledge in the various disciplines interdisciplines uh that uh you know are available in universities and then of course the instrumental value of education is the cultivation of invaluable skills and competencies for the world of work including critical thinking or around communication skills problem solving creative sensibilities and of course very specific skills that can be uh you know provided and then of course the idealistic value of higher education is the vital contribution to the development of character and citizenship [Laughter] so thank you Paul no absolutely excellent um but with these four eyes I mean uh Paul just get back to you again uh having been uh up till very very recently the president of a university in Kenya indeed uh uh that does four eyes I mean how would you go about then communicating that also vis-a-vis the question that we're posing ourselves today funding money yeah so I think I think a you need to make sure that uh you as the university leader communicate very clearly to the state you know because the state remains very powerful for us and and a lot of government officials uh when you talk to them are not fully convinced particularly certain you know disciplines uh in in the you know uh the humanities social sciences they think they're really a waste of time uh you know well stem uh seems to be given a bit more uh consideration and and you you need to emphasize that all these fields of study are critical for different reasons and that you you know universities we are trying to develop interdisciplinary transdisciplinary ways of knowing of understanding of studying of learning and so on uh secondly you have to be able to to talk to and convince the corporate sector uh so the corporate sector has to be involved not simply in acquiring Talent from higher education institutions but also being part and parcel of producing that uh Talent uh through which means when we are developing curricula we need to be able to talk to the corporate sector find out exactly what are these skill sets they're looking for it doesn't mean that you're completely you know driven by that but you have to understand that in order to develop the kind of curricula that is going to be relevant uh while of course imparting the enduring values of higher education it has to have relevance in terms of employability and um you know you can also through that of course generate the kinds of resources that may be necessary to undertake those kinds of things and then I think sadly you have to be able uh to also communicate with the public a lot of University leaders are very shy of uh sort of speaking to the public because one runs statement and your goose is cooked you know a generation ago two generations ago invested leaders used to be public you know they would carry the public conscience and speak about you know uh National issues international issues uh now of course the cost of doing that is reason because of polarization and and so on but you have to be able to comment and and on key developments in the world about about politics about the environment about development about where we are going uh because you know silence will not remove uh you know those problems uh it will in fact you are abdicating the role of universities as the engines of Enlightenment sorry to use that word of enlightening Society so you have to be able to to develop communication skills in terms of the media media sadness traditional media as well as of course new social media um and and certainly you have to be able to begin to talk with the rich people now I know that in the African context a lot of a lot of us as academics uh you know come from a radical radical Traditions particularly in the social sciences and Humanities and we're very suspicious of rich people uh you know in some cases for right reasons because we know the source of their wealth is not uh quite clean but but you have to learn to talk to the African bourgeoisie uh what makes them tick you have to understand them and and you also have to engage them uh for for opportunities in terms of generating the kinds of resources that you know will be useful in the United States for example uh you find that uh much of the uh you know sort of fundraising 70 typically comes from you know your alumni and among those alumni typically those very very rich people who you have produced that are giving you a lot of money so you have to cultivate the ability to engage and communicate uh with the high net worth individuals whose numbers are exploding across Africa so in other words you have to learn to be somebody who you know moves from talking from one constituency both the internal constituencies as well as the external constituencies and get your message uh you know that is calibrated for different constituencies as clear as possible with the intention of always promoting the fundamental Mission and values of higher education as an institution in society that is undergoing rapid change complex changes and that is increasingly polarized Peter can I just ask you following up on what Paul just uh has shared with us uh one of course is a the communication itself the value proposition that needs to be defined by higher education leaders but how do you come to that value proposition I'm thinking about the inner workings of the universities themselves uh what what are the communication structures within higher education institutions in order uh to facilitate exactly these kinds of I guess messages that then will then uh lead into the the two minutes or the four minutes or the 17 minutes that we were speaking about in terms of a value proposition that is one question uh so the inner workings of communication within a higher education uh institution and then of course the general discourse of the value proposition between the universities themselves second question is Paul has just spoken about um the private sector very eloquently in Africa in terms of untapped potential for higher education funding um of course we know that the biggest funders of higher education institutions is in the public sector of course but there we need to have a debate about the funding responsibility so Public Funding responsibilities maybe you can Enlighten us a little bit more about that as well thank you yes thank you um to um important relevant but also challenging questions uh the first one let's say the in when it comes to the internal communication the channels the the way that communication is um is taking place Etc if I would put it very mildly I would say there's room for improvement um and um in the the various um evaluation assessment um strategic development activities of universities or or networks of universities that I've been involved in over the last years one complaint of staff and student is always communication internal communication in the institution in communication about change communication about strategic development and of course it's not an easy task as any University leader will will acknowledge but there's definitely room for improvement and one um issue that I would like to to include here is that we've paid a lot of attention um uh or in in the the pandemic and before to the use of digital Technologies and education to stomach then research we hardly discussed the use of digital Technologies and governance in uh in University governance internally so how can we use in a much more effective way digital Technologies to stimulate the kind of communication that we enter now in in our panel have uh especially addressed from an external perspective so I think that is that is a key area um in order also to make sure that this is not an um an activity the internal communication which has become kind of an activity with as an aim in itself but that it really leads to outcomes um there are areas uh also there we've done research with with uh within our Network in Europe and and worldwide when it comes to um academic freedom uh basic values there's a hardly an understanding uh um among most academics and students within higher education on the the concept of academic freedom the importance of it the meaning of it the relevance of it so so that all um has to be addressed in the internal communication that that you are referring to but it's of course coming back to your original question crucial if we want to develop and um a common understanding of the way in which the university is identifying its main objectives its contributions to Social Development Economic Development political development Etc that relates also to the second question because in my view in addition to the engagement or to the communication that we address engagement is a key concept uh universities shouldn't only communicate in words they should also communicate in actions and there for for many universities around the world the notion of social engagement and even of knowledge transfer is still seen as an add-on not as an um a core part of the way in which the university as an institutions should operate in society the recognition of Engagement activities of students and staff the Strategic development of uh key Partnerships with the private sector in society Paul addressed it but also with the Civil Society um strategic Partnerships around environmental issues renewable energy sustainability inequality Health Care there's a in any society whether it's an an advanced economy a very rich country like Norway or countries that that still are in a low-income group there are key challenges in society where the university could play much more active role so we need to develop the communicative or stimulate the communicative skills of University leaders involve the university the higher education institution as all in it um said there's a enormous room for improvement there also through the use of digital technology and create an action plan and let the knowledge transfer and the knowledge activities of University not only be internal but also link the Public Funding that you get to public actions and public activities through engagement and knowledge transfer not only for commercial purposes but for uh social and Civil Society development purposes also Peter has led the way uh in what ways can we Define Public Funding responsibility and how must Public Funding entities move to invest in higher education I mean this is the bread and butter what the World Bank discusses with our partner countries when we go in to build projects that support tertiary education it is entirely around public borrowing right this is countries taking out massive loans incurring debt to support higher education treasury education Investments and how do the technical teams on the ground in those countries defend that that debt burden that comes with higher education Investments I think uh both Peter and Paul have articulated really well that the sort of broad environmental values of higher education to Society on the ground though when you're sitting with the Minister of Finance they want to know what's coming out of the institutions that shows a real return of this Public Funding because they're on the hook for that debt and they're on the hook to the newspapers that will report on it that the stakeholders that will care and so there's some key interventions that the institutions can be doing better individually and around across the system one is graduate Tracer studies and really paying attention to what's happening to their graduates when they exit the institution um graduate Tracer studies of course are you know require sustained activity on the part of the institution year on year there's a lot of um Tracer study one-off one-off research that says our graduates all got jobs but you know one could look at the coveted years as a time that really showed you really have to know year on year what's happening either there's a recession there's a pandemic something happens that it forces A disruption it doesn't mean that your institution is no good right so you don't want the outcomes of these types of evaluations to be uh sort of stuck around one single experience so I think graduate Tracer studies are really important there's also institutions could really do a lot more institutional research this is something that the U.S institutions do very well they have entire offices right that are just constantly collecting data who's going who's graduating what research is being done what are the faculty members doing how many patents are being done like all sorts of contextual data that is explicit to the exercise of running and leading an institution right of any form whether that's a community college or a world-class research University it doesn't matter know where the money is going know how it's being spent know what kind of indicators matter when you're telling the story about if you if your institution is running well if it's fit for purpose is it achieving its Mission all of that requires really good localized data collection what has happened in much of the world is household surveys or external actors who are trying to apply research methods to really sort of loose Data Systems right they're trying to collect data that doesn't exist at the institutional level so they fabricate you know realistically maybe or with at least some uh some Integrity behind the attempt but still bad data is bad data and bad data tells bad stories and so good daily Institute additional importance all of this comes together to tell a story of the value of the institution and the system to society and that's where policy makers get the the Notions that they need to then go to Parliament or to have the negotiation with the Minister of Finance and say this is a worthwhile investment we're under investing you can see in comparative data into something Peter does a lot of maybe Paul you do as well this comparative data who's investing how much what are the outcomes from some systems and outcomes from other systems what can we learn from this comparative environment this is why people are participating in this Workshop today is the same kind of questions that policy makers want to be able to have access to answers when they sit down and say okay well if China had this momentous transformational economic development at the same time that they're investing in University expansion is there something for us to learn about that that's really important right in the universities on the ground should be able to provide data that shows at least some commitment to understanding the outcomes of what they're doing the the last point I had lots of points but I think there's a big challenge at the institutional level to to explain what things costs what costs what it costs to deliver in much of the world uh the the budgets for higher education are determined by faculty salaries the faculty salaries are not necessarily an operational cost per se right they are a cost but is it necessary to spend that much money what did the overhead cost what is the real cost to delivery not the tuition that gets charged or you know the ultimate price that's applied what's the cost of delivery because in much of the world higher education costs a lot more to deliver than they're getting in terms of funding right and so you see that in the U.S especially where the costs of all sorts of things have grown now in this time of inflation the cost of delivering these programs are very high technology Investments are incredibly expensive but that is an argument for more funding right but they need to know what these things cost so that they can come back and say we are providing this immense amount of service to Society at Bare Bones financing because things cost more than you know and most institutions have a hard time actually really going line item line I'm saying this is what it actually costs to deliver what we do we do it really efficiently in most places I'll stop there just Roberto just as a follow-up question uh you sit down with the Minister of Finance in a country and they want to know what uh they get out of it what the cost of the physical course whatever happened to the intrinsic value of Education of a higher education value whatever happened to knowledge for knowledge sake whatever happened to the formation of the individual what's the price tag on that yeah I mean that's exactly what university should be able to provide I don't know that know that I think I'm thinking of education has any space to ask terms of what they do and the service they provide for their societies Ministers of Finance are on the hook for efficient spending of scarce State resources right and strategic and strategic spending based on political impacts and so the whoever is in charge of the government at the time the political platform of the of the Party In Charge wherever this is true everywhere in the world so for a minister of finance it really is can we defend the budget that we're bringing out to use public finances it may be in a place like Norway where a minister of finance would say of course this is an investment in Social Development as much as an economic development and then you can dig down right into that conversation about the whole social envelope that that is uh part of higher education's contribution in many of our countries though where the resources are so scarce what they really have to say is there is going to be a return on this investment we can promise you this and we the economists at the World Bank the higher education special at the bank we try to craft models that can show return on that investment we do know in the lowest income countries in the world social education has the highest private Returns on investment that's a very powerful argument with the Minister of Finance and I have to say in a very um utilitarian way I think that's enough that's enough for me if it means that I can get all the other externalities from higher education provided to society by saying it has an economic return great that's a very it's very practical and it may be a little reductive but it actually can work and so you have to know I mean Paul said this as well you have to know who your audience is and what you need to get from them or what you're trying to convince them of because this value proposition is on multiple levels if it's a finance person and they just need to know the returns are worth the investment then give them that argument because the data as we've been saying through this whole session the research is there the information is there you can provide a pure economic returns argument and and make the case strongly for Minister of Finance you would make different Arguments for the parents of potential students perhaps you'd make different Arguments for an investor in a research center or something like that right but for Minister of Finance it has to be about efficient and effective spending of public resources Paul Peter any comments on that um yeah I I agree with that you have to use different language different Arguments for different uh you know stakeholders that you're talking to um and and one does not uh mean uh you know that you are not aware of the other you know sort of uh arguments that can be made I I I just wanted to to to you know sort of comment on what Peter said earlier also in terms of our communication and and part of it is you know there are formal practices that are dictated by the governor's structures of of the institution uh processes of decision making uh within the institution uh and then they are the more informal ways uh of of communicating uh which involve for example you know the president and and other leaders Dean's chairs and so on participating in in academic co-curricular activities and of course also participating in the as I noted earlier but I think one point that Peter's uh you know mentioned which is extremely important uh is is the whole issue of knowledge uh transfer and knowledge translation um and and for African universities I think one of the the key things is that a the kind of research that is being done or should be done should be addressing the profound challenges or problems of that society as well as of course you know of the region of the continent of the world and so on and a lot of the problems are really transnational problems environmental problems have particular articulations in you know ins you know if you are a a you know a landlocked country or you are you know an arid uh you know country or whatever they have particular articulations uh but you know you need to be able to address that and unfortunately in in a lot of the research uh the signals come from the global north in which if you want to be quote-unquote promoted respected and I require that you know academic reputational Capital uh you have to you know make sure that your research is addressing problems identified elsewhere because you are sending your articles there to be published uh the the levels of external external epistemic relationship for Africa is extremely high uh you know more African Scholars publish we you know with collaborators from other parts of the world than any other regions uh region in the world which is almost a replica of the economic dependencies that we have in which you have raw materials send them abroad they are you know sort of processed into manufactured goods and they import them that that epistemic extravision that uh you know as hunting the benignoir philosopher calls it is something that we have to tackle uh in Africa to make sure that the research is relevant and you know to to go to uh you know to the argument that Roberto I was making it also then helps you to talk to the Minister of Finance to say you know we are solving these critical environmental issues these critical gender issues this critical uh human capital development issues this critical technological issues as they affect our society and they can see that you're doing that and therefore they may be more open to you to um to support what you're doing and and and and also uh the translation of research I think you know has to do with the relationship between academic institutions and think tax the range of think tanks across Africa is relatively small uh compared to the rest of the world uh and and they typically do not have very robust relationships with universities except that some people of course flow from universities to work in the think tank for a while or undertake consultancy projects and so on but there needs to be a much stronger set of relationships in the entire ecosystem of knowledge production knowledge dissemination knowledge consumption uh and and and through that the universities will be able I think to demonstrate their importance their relevance to their own communities their own countries and to the continent in ways that you might get the interests of different Ministries including the Ministry of Finance hmm yes if I if I may follow up that with with three um three Reflections first um Roberta referred to to Norway in Norway as many uh countries in the global North as as Paul indicated are in a special position our current minister of higher education in science um has over the last uh um year and a half two years uh at various occasions at relatively bluntly nowhere will run out of people before it will run out of money and um as a consequence we got to make sure that the people we have have the right competencies and skills and other universities providing uh and helping these the the people to get these competencies and skills and there are a number of serious questions about that and in that Arena and it's not just in Norway but we see it in Finland and in other European countries in South Korea also there is the question of the balance between higher education the traditional universities and and colleges and the vocational uh post-secondary education institutions and the kind of inclination of our minister of higher education to um to um promote within the government investments in the vocational sector uh to some extent that the cost of of higher education and there's a debate going on around that where uh important arguments uh have to be made by by University leaders so that's one second is a very interesting situation in the European Union where there are fundamental differences between EU member states when it comes to investments in higher education as percentage of GDP and investments in r d and there the European commission is using the the covet pandemic fund the the multi-billion Euro fund to stimulate if not um convince or even Force some of the countries that traditionally within the EU have had that very low level of public investment in higher education and science um countries in Central and Eastern Europe especially to use a large part of the multi-billion Investments that are going to be made from this covet fund into higher education and r d and in order to get the money from this covet fund the universities have to come with the governments have to come with convincing plans now that kind of intra-european solidarity at least within the European Union is now also an important dimension in the new relationship between the new agreement between the European Union and the African Union where um the the both the president of the African Union and the European Union have emphasized we got to move away from bilateral scientific relations and move to to multilateral Scientific relations and that means that um in um the the way in which Within These larger InterContinental agreements science higher education Innovation research are supported is shifting from development Aid to uh different kinds of perspectives and and uh um and Foundations and it also means that the the time perspective is changing from short-term project oriented to long-term program oriented and a key component in the agreement is how can we reduce inequality inequality and infrastructure inequality and career opportunities how to do that and there the financial the funding question comes back because you need a huge investment uh in the negotiation between the European Union African Union the Marshall Plan has been mentioned we need a Marshall Plan for um addressing the inequalities the science inequalities that still dominate Global Science relations so what kind of Investments are needed and how can we convince yes the Minister of Finance governments but also the general public that these Investments are long overdue and absolutely crucial to make sure that um we are able with all the talents that we need um to address the key questions around sustainability uh renewable energy inequality Etc so I think we are um both at the national context like in Norway with questions around uh competencies and skills where Roberta's point about the the way in which we communicate with the Minister of Finance but also with the minister of higher education with uh the The Vocational sector with um the the economic system Etc is crucial the European context where a shift is is identifiable to larger intra-european solidarity which now is also being used in the relationship the science relationship through the Innovation agenda between the African Union and the European Union there are many barriers there are many complications there are many issues at stake but I think the tendency is going in that direction and the tendency of of identifying and interpreting the the importance of science to address Global challenges and this is something that also from the sector from the higher education sector needs to be supported if the shift from bilateral North uh the global North dominated agendas to a multilateral equal partnership agenda is to be realized Peter if we just Linger on that thought for a moment and also go back maybe to my initial remarks on the future of higher education institutions and basically what has come out of uh many many Global discussions and consultances uh consultations uh when it comes to the yeah the difficulties within the higher education institutions being part of the problem at times and less so sometimes at times uh lesser part of the solutions um the big buzzword is transformation transformative education and uh you challenged me yesterday in a discussion beforehand uh there's the the the the the question what is the relevance of humanities does not pose itself as much as that in the future universities will be interdisciplinary and uh interdisciplinary and and thus we must cater to exactly these new kind of models of universities um I I said again uh silos tear them down lifelong learning approaches hierarchically weekly connected institutions you mentioned that to yourself with scientific collaboration we need to reform uh the very much the ways in which we carry out research especially from a geopolitical point of view etc etc holistic student learning experiences so transformative education I'm here looking at Roberta um yes I a I think we need to have a discussion about these things we need to Define what the future University must look like and B how do we convince the donors the money agencies uh the public sector in order to buy into such a project we know that universities have a thousand year long tradition that have been working on a relatively stable model for quite some time are we in for some revolutionary models and if so will there be buying uh yes and yes I think the um you know the first letter in our acronym for this deer report is about strategically Diversified systems and I think the thinking needs to be moving away from universities as the only valid provider of post-secondary Education that is useful to students in society because and to get back to what is a well-funded system as well expanded access is going to require a multitude of institutional types and they cannot all be the most expensive type which is a research driven University with the campus and all that is wonderful about universities we know in much of the world many forms of post-secondary Education provide a lot of important services to society and community at much lower cost than universities and so I think what is going to be transformative is a greater acceptance of these institution types investments in more teacher-driven skills oriented not necessarily vocational in that they are directly connected to a professional outcome because that is right a anyway it's hard to understand entirely what one does to become the commercial director of an ad agency you can do that through the humanities without any problem right there's a lot of professions that uh emerge from just a really good solid Learning Foundation but that doesn't have to be research intensive or research driven and I think for efficiency in a well-funded system institutions that are fit for purpose that are mission driven and that can offer students the outcome that they're seeking the the educational experience and the direction that gets them where they wish to be going is going to be much more important we mentioned the students earlier students for some reason are often left out of this conversation about what do they want from their educational experience a lot of them do want theoretical knowledge theoretical experiences that's what most of us probably had in our educations that led us into PhD studies and this wonderful world of asking big questions and trying to solve big problems this is you know it's a gift that we have because of our education some other people lots of people want to build a skill that takes them through the career track that makes them a little bit more money that gives them a little bit more stability economic and social that allows them to live the lives they want to live not necessarily through the full University experience and so that is going to be a big difference we're talking more about micro credentialing right we're talking about short courses that are directly tied to the workplace I think that's all relevant and I think uh Peter brought up a really important point about demographic shifts demographic shifts we talked a little before about the explosion of population the youth population in Africa in South Asia as well and how is higher education going to be able to provide the skills and experiences and knowledge to support that expanded Community with the challenges of financing that are in place new institutional models might be able to do that but we also see in as we say in ecca and in East Asia an aging population with a lot of people who may not have access to higher education in the traditional time frame needing to be reskilled in a quick way to be able to contribute to the economic stability of their countries and that's what lifelong learning can do but again it doesn't need to be a full University experience it can be sort of an enrichment experience that allows them to prepare for the world of work today maybe that was the one they left either to have children years ago or because they're just moving from profession to profession so agility in the sector is going to be really important it does allow for financing in a way that can be more adaptive to the outcome goals of that particular delivery device which can differ based on on the institution itself mm-hmm yeah um go ahead Andreas we can't hear you sorry I'm speaking do you know what actually I was wondering did you in fact maybe for the last 10 minutes or so to go completely against online etiquette and actually keep your microphones on so that you can rudely interrupt each other uh at any given point right um Paul um just wanted to follow up yes exactly on Roberta's Point uh where do you see the future of the higher education model or the university model and its financial implications yeah I I agree with um you know Roberta that you you have to have diversification within the sort of the tertiary system as a whole where you have different types of Institutions that do different things although they are connected and you have to make sure that the there is articulation between them but they are separate and they're different because of different Market niches uh different skill sets that they want to address and so on um so differentiation is critical diversification is critical and and articulation and this is uh probably one of the big challenges uh in many African countries uh creating a regulatory environment that accepts this diversification and differentiation not every University should be offering phds you know some be research intensive some maybe teaching intensive some may be occupational you know occupational um sort of oriented and so on and so forth and you you are already finding in some countries that I know in Kenya for example uh you're getting students who are selected to go to university uh some of them preferring to go to the tibits the technical education you know because the translation from education to a job is much more immediate and therefore the ability to earn employability in other words uh is is better uh articulated so you know the differentiation and and diversification of models is extremely critical the challenge is always the regulatory environment how far is it accepting uh you know that that development um and and I wanted to agree again with Peter's point that uh relationships between universities say in African Europe in Africa and the United States and so on I have to move away from bilateral Arrangements increasingly into multilateral Arrangements when I was vice Chancellor in Nairobi one of the things which used to be frankly tiring is getting calls from all these universities trying to be partners with us first of all we didn't have the bandwidth to have hundreds of Partnerships uh it was a waste of our time frankly uh it would it's better to have the Au or the AAU in on the association of African universities and the various Regional Association in East Africa the uh and the um you know the uh the Consortium of investors for the East African region uh you know of course there is one in sarua in in southern Africa and so on and so forth for them to be Brokers of these relationships and therefore you encourage two things one you encourage inter-institutional collaboration on the African side because this need for more of that and you also encourage inter-institutional collaboration between the Africans and whatever you know region of the world uh they are you know relating and and in that you can leverage uh you know an upscale uh those relationships to become truly productive and robust and not fly by night relationships that uh you know they last forever basically you sign the mou it gathers dust on the wall because really you know nothing happens so I think consocial arrangements are absolutely fundamental as we move in the 21st century and the other point here if I can just conclude with that is that relationships between African institutions and institutions in the global North historically have been very paternalistic very unequal uh who drives the agenda uh it typically happens to be the institution in the global box um and and again that has to change uh because you know Africans are very good at smiling at you uh looking like they're agreeing with you the moment you leave they're actually cursing you and say forget that um now if we want productive relationships it has to be based on the principles of co-creation co-creation of the problems co-creation of the sharing of assets you know institutions of different assets we we tend to have a deficit mindset when it comes to Africa they have assets what are those assets that you know complement the assets that you may bring and typical