Create a Self Employed Invoice Example for Product Management Effortlessly

Self employed invoice example for Product Management

[Music] so [Music] just to start off i wondered if you could just uh both in turn just tell me a little bit about um you and then how you kind of ended up getting here so start with you victoria yeah okay i've had um i'd say have a bit of a unconventional journey to getting here so i was a maths teacher for a few years and then was realized how difficult that was and then decided that um to go and work in an education startup for a bit and then um went into the consulting side so worked at a consulting firm did kind of customer experience and experience design for banks and insurance companies and stalin was my last client and i worked with starling to help win this 100 million grants that we won last year to kind of say that again sorry remedies funding yeah exactly the bcr um the rbs remedies fund so we won 100 million pounds there and when we won that i decided to make the leap over to stalin and actually do the things that we set out that we were going to do in that bid so now i've only got myself to blame when i'm like yeah did i say we were going to do that very good and you too sergey um so i was a credit trader once upon a time which quite nicely set me up for working in a fast-paced environment and problem solving and things like that and then about four years ago i accidentally landed in the world of startups i host these networking events called table crowds and it's for the the startup scene and ann bowdan was a speaker at one of the table crowds i was hosting so a couple of years later i emailed her with some ideas for the starling app and lo and behold here i am working at styling now um so yeah that's that's my journey to starling and one of i guess the end points of you both arriving here is you've been working on business products you mentioned they're the remedies funding a huge um i guess boost in the amount of money available for uh fintechs or to introduce competition to into the business banking space um and now as a perhaps as a as one of the initiatives that's come off the back of that we might say that there is a um a new series of tool uh tools that are available for for starting business users but could we talk more generally about the sort of escape the scope of starting business what it does what are the core problems that is trying to be solved yeah so i think the remedies fund just to go back to that was almost an acknowledgement of the fact that business banking was kind of fundamentally broken and uncompetitive especially for these small end of businesses so you had all the big banks who dominated the market for businesses really focusing on the corporate side of business banking because it makes them loads of money so you had this whole segment of customers that were kind of just neglected um the whole concept of sold trader accounts didn't even exist they've got you you've got people with huge banking fees and without really kind of tailored services to these small businesses so a lot of the incumbents they charge just to have a business bank account um so it doesn't really encourage entrepreneurs and sole traders to be getting these and as victoria said the concept of a soul trader account didn't exist and that's something that we do offer so that people can segment their money away from their personal account without having to pay the huge fees and all the transaction fees that come with banking and it also has meant that the the bigger banks have had to catch up and innovate to keep up with all the digital fintechs um which is only good for the customer right it just it gives the customer a much better experience both from a servicing perspective because we have 24 7 customer servicing um as well as what you see in app on the go all the time sure and um and i guess one of the provisos of like that um that that kind of improvement in the in the business banking sort of the servicing of sole traders and small small and medium-sized businesses respectively is that there have been this flurry of new fintechs emerging into the market um doing really interesting things uh from things like uh you know like an invoice financing perspective and like later on in this instance from a tooling perspective and um that seems to have uh rattled the the big boys into into thinking a bit more seriously about this so for example 11 fs was involved in building an sme sole trader bank for uh nat west as an example like it's giving them the imperative to think a little bit more about um those kind of different services um but do you think that they're that that you're competing with big banks in this in this sense or are you competing with some of the smaller players that the likes of the tides and the coconuts of this world or now with this new product maybe it's a whole other area of businesses i think um in terms of business banking as a whole we are competing with both the traditional players and with the kind of challenger bank space so from the from the traditional banks perspective as certainly said we've you know we're providing better servicing we are doing it cheaper and we're giving them a better user experience yeah but also from a challenger perspective we're also offering things that the other challenges aren't so we've got overdrafts we've got loans you can have a multi-director account for free you can have your accounting integrations for free so we are trying to do something slightly different to some of the other childhood banks in the i think some of them are doing transactional bundling for business banking as some of their kind of paid for services and so i think revolut's got multiple different tiers where they have different offerings around that we've kind of taken it in a slightly different direction where we're looking more at the bookkeeping that return side of things to help customers with their financial burden so it's more feature-led rather than kind of bundling together transactional services and so i think we bridge both um and we're not trying to do something exactly the same and replicate what others have got we're trying to kind of think about our actual customer and what's going to help them the accounting tools and the and the those kind of invoice generating that sort of tax tools that sort of thing um did you kind of we are you aware of those players in the space as well and have they now become a competitor or were there elements of what you were doing before which was always competitive in that regard are you are you referring to like the zeros and quickbooks yeah so we still provide um accounting integrations with them through our marketplace and um and we're not going to stop doing that i think it's really important that we cater to the full spectrum of businesses that we have so the toolkit that we've built is kind of more on the smaller end of the spectrum um for the startups if as you grow and you become more and more sophisticated you're going to need more complex um software tools so the toolkit's very new um some of these players have had over a decade to build out things that are going to help those sophisticated businesses so i think it's really important that we still provide the option yeah uh what's the setup currently in styling how do you guys think about product as a discipline and do you have any um kind of is there any mantras or kind of ways of working that are specific to you guys i think we have a really adaptable product approach so for example for business for the toolkit we have a dedicated team that we um follow like a traditional um product life cycle approach with um you know customer research to understanding our prioritization to working through like two-week sprints and that's kind of something that saj and i have created within because we have this dedicated team what i think is really great about starling's approach is that we kind of take the approach that is that works for what we're working on so when we did um bibbles as spouts so bounce back loans i don't actually know if industry-wide people call it bibbles i've never heard we call it that internally um it's much better than bounce back loans isn't it yeah bubbles um so when we did bounce back loans what was really awesome was that because our engineers are so empowered and are so great we we basically had 48 hours to create this journey and we kind of had to just chuck everyone at it and what it meant was that there were different engineers kind of and product people working on different aspects and eventually it came together and the first few customers would have had a kind of bit of a not ideal um you know journey but we got there in the end so i would say that that is unique to starling we have a we don't have one single product mantra but we have teams that are able to organize themselves into a system that works for them and their products it's best for that um i mean the toolkit is quite a complex product suite and so we've been able to train up a lot of our customer services agents and set up a whole escalation process and it's worked really well and there's a whole feedback loop because i think it's really important that we look at what it is that our customers want and try and build that based on what they say sure and um how long could you well maybe that's not the right question but from a from a building perspective and getting the toolkit through to its current incarnation how how was that from from kind of your perspective was it a lengthy process um did you take your time with it that kind of that kind of thing i would say it started in a quite unconventional way okay because of the nature of the um i keep going back to the 100 million but it really has changed the way that we have been able to focus our resources darling so we got that money in last april and um suddenly had to accelerate our growth and so basically on day one um i was given three separate engineering teams from three different um outs like three different external companies that we had previously worked with and um we kind of gave them three products to work on which was invoicing tax and vat but actually it was kind of just get going and it's started kind of at the beginning started went off in three different directions and then then we managed to pull it back together and kind of got into our rhythm of the product approach that i was just talking about yeah so it's probably from the start like it probably did take about like four months before we had customers using it and we normally would want that to be much much quicker yeah but because of the nature of working with external organizations and tech technical limitations it probably took a bit longer than we would usually have before we'd get active customers on it right it's also ramping up right so you don't have all the people that you need on day one and so that's why it's taken this route to where we've got to now which is quite a lot of people working on it yeah we had to write our um slack like we have used slack and when we when we did the big launch on monday um it's been with like 1500 customers for a while but when we launched it we had to do this um like blast of we finally launched it and to thank everyone and to try and list out all of the i don't know hundred of people across the organization who've worked on it uh it was quite a feat yeah we we have like um a toolkit tribe so across the rest of the business which is a really really good way of doing everything and so we have touch points with like marketing legal like any other normal tribe and so i'm just gonna say shout out to them because um pulling everything together in terms of all the marketing and the illegals and whatnot is no mean feat so um yeah that's also a really good way of working for any product people out there yeah but here we go on the invoicing side of things so um as we mentioned before this is going to be um a web-based experience where there is the some quite interesting names customers that you have there um but we can sort of see the ability to enter details uh email credentials and then customer address into this invoicing section and i guess this is gonna go towards starting to set up or render a rendering invoice format for us as we go through kind of you can already pick out places where we'd like to improve so for example postcode lookup so that you don't have to enter all of those things in yeah kind of little things that we want to do along the way but i'm not sure whether we would have actually found darth vader's real address so maybe he just lives on the death star um but then you have the description and then so we've created this customer and then now we have that information pre-filled and then uh able to then item uh itemize our invoice um with you know buying some some lightsabers and there's a twenty percent bax uh that attached to that there's also uh the quantity involved and then it's also calculating at the bottom um what's going on including the vat um so really interesting that you mentioned the fact that this is a continuously sort of like you you ship the feature and then you can also see areas that you can improve here is the invoice as we mentioned a draft version of it um and then we can click on the finalize button um which we can see also the linked accounts yeah so one of the things that we have got is um you can link through to gmail or google and microsoft 365 um your own email so it allows you to then send the invoices directly from the tool kit which saves people loads of times just quite convenient and they'll be able to see see it in their sent items and that's when it moves from finalized to a waiting payment so it's sent um and then um we have the ability to match invoices to transactions so um someone's made a payment in advance yeah i knew the voice was coming um yeah and so we we match at the moment um against the invoice number and the amount and so all kind of strong and weak matches because not all customers are going to have remembered to put in the the invoice number reference and things like that um and so we we highlight where there is something that's come in with the purple icon um where there is something to do an action to take so they can um recognizing that we don't do partial matching yet but it's on the on the road map but this is a good start towards that um and you kind of mentioned that there is the ability to um kind of link up the email the gmail and so offering kind of like that ecosystem or interplay i know that's a big part of what starling's done since day one with the marketplace and what have you um but it's a general sort of principle of making everything fit together and connect in a way which is really neat and compelling um did you have a specific kind of when you you're thinking about a user or a persona like you mentioned there like a is this is this the sole trader experience that we're looking at here directly someone who maybe has to do their own um stuff fairly regularly in an invoicing perspective um did you have a persona or anything like that in mind yeah so when we first started this looking at what our business banking portfolio looked like in terms of our customers um a huge proportion of them were freelancers it consultant types and so that's kind of where we started and since then our portfolio has grown massively and we've got a lot of different types of business and so we're trying to then iterate even what we have now to work for all of these multitudes of different yeah different types of businesses that was our starting point and that has its own complications doesn't it it's really neat and nice when you get like a very small section that you focus on and like this is my beach head these are my users i'm just gonna like drive straight towards that kind of um yeah trying to get across that it's really hard when you when you so you're totally right we say okay we want to make a great experience for these people and then we launched our beta version of the toolkit in january and had 1500 customers on it and you want to please everyone everybody's coming back with all of their use cases of how they want the invoicing tool to work and what we've really tried to do is okay so from these what are our what are our most common things what are going to get what's going to get the most impact so we have limited obviously everyone does we have limited resource how are we going to find exactly what is going to make the most impact for our customers yeah when we speak to customers i mean one of the things they said they feared the most was not getting paid and that's probably even more so true at the moment and so we want them to be able to track their own voices and highlight when something is overdue so they can go and chase the payment um and so it's just kind of yeah the next step would be notifying them through a phone notification that something is overdue and then kind of just automating all of that flow through but this is kind of the framework for it okay that's interesting because there's like a very emotional component to it there isn't there and it sort of feels like whenever you whenever you're building products it's really good to be able to capture something that actually resonates on an emotional perspective like am i gonna be able to um you know pay my bills for the next month is something which is inherently um you know something which people deeply care about and and a resonance with them um the other side product which is maybe sorry victoria go ahead i was just going to say back you you asked earlier about kind of around competitive advantage and why you went for these products yeah but i think that's linked to what you and sasha were just saying there about um like what the customer's most inherent need was and when you speak to these smes we weren't kind of saying okay what are these other banks doing where is our niche advantage um maybe commercially we should do that but um it was more you know we've spoken to these customers what is that need that we can actually serve what is the pain that they're feeling and um that's kind of why we ended up going for it down this route yeah yeah sorry go ahead searching i was gonna say um financial admin is the thing that takes up so much of their time and it's quite stressful because accounting bookkeeping can be quite complicated um and so anything that allows them to just get on with running their business we figured was going to be a plus yeah for sure and um i guess also like as we were saying earlier about that sort of ecosystem section that that seems also a very in like a very important part of the the the viability of this product is the ability for you to connect to different services uh to one another you mentioned before like that part of the the business marketplace still includes your zeros and so on but the ability for that you know is there a reason why connecting gmail or you know one of these providers was such an important thing that you wanted to get out as the first version of the product any anyone in particular you look like yeah so i think again it's around the time saving convenience factor right so you have to once you've got your invoice you have to download it write a message in your inbox attach it it all just takes time and so we're trying to make a seamless experience and with open banking and all these integrations you can just do that now and we thought it would be kind of a really nice way um it's only google and and microsoft 365 at the moment you know there's like leaps and bounds to go we've had requests for apple mail and all sorts um but it's pop in the right direction and and yeah you know anything that really helps them connect everything together and so that they don't have to log in to seven different places just to get one thing done yeah yeah and when you were kind of thinking about this um the product as a whole but also the invoicing functions was there anything that you anyone that you looked to as like maybe a gold standard competitor or something and thought i really like the way that they're approaching like i don't know web-based uh invoice um that generation or something like that was there anything that you looked at that resonated in that way definitely you look at the competitors right you want to see what other people are doing take the best bits you don't want to start from scratch there's hundreds of invoicing tools yeah yeah what we were really keen to do for the invoicing tool but more for the toolkit specifically was i think when you look at xero and sage they're made by accountants who understand double entry bookkeeping and you know that they have a whole host of um understanding that frankly we don't um what we did was bring in the accounting expertise to make sure that it's like factually correct and we're not breaking any rules that actually take more of a um you know small business approach to think okay what does a customer understand with not too much accounting knowledge i'm without trying to be patronizing there obviously are some businesses who will have all of that but there are lots that don't so that was really important to us when creating all of our tools that it was kind of not just replicating a paper-based system kind of thinking about the user when we were doing that we've taken we've looked at some of the things that competitors are doing and we've taken the user research and user testing kind of tried to mash it all together to try and get the best possible journey um the other thing i was going to say which we haven't been able to do it's not in mobile yet so you can't do it on the go but for the wider toolkit we want people to be doing things on the go so if you're taking a picture of your receipt when the transaction happens and it all flows into your bookkeeping then you know you're spending three seconds every day doing that rather than two days before your self-assessment tax return is due you're sat there with a bottle of wine and a box of shoes you know box shoe box of receipts and trying to sift through them all and it's just trying to avoid all of that pain by doing things on the go and incrementally and so it's it's a behavioral change as well i'm gonna say that sounds like a behavioral shift there in the sense of um people often appreciate like i guess tax time with all of this like this is just something i need to get through it's gonna yeah but it's part of my yearly routine that i need to sit down at this time and um and do this and try not to excuse my french it up and um that seems to be the uh if you can get if you go about alleviating that then you're on the right track i guess uh shall we take a look at some tax bids now right cool so down to the tax section um an estimated kind of review um or amount due the profit for the business and on the right there are self-assessment um what do we kind of mean by that in the sense of a self-assessment so that is just um that's basically a pot that you're saving towards so on the profit and loss all of your transactions within your styling account feed into this tax calculation and you can also add in manual transactions which we'll probably see in a minute by changing your category here that actually feeds through into whether that is allowable or not for tax okay yeah so we try to automate as much as possible so by changing that category to entertainment there that actually um talking about the actual form that we're sending to hmrc okay this here you can edit how much each transaction is allowable for tax because maybe part of it was a personal transaction for example i was gonna say we've mapped um all the transactions to categories so whether it be pratt or amazon or wherever and then all of those categories are then mapped to whether or not they're allowable for tax or disallowable but as we're saying you have the option of changing that because people work from home so not all of their expenses are going to be purely business or personal um and that's how it all feeds through so that's kind of the automated bit of it but with the option of an override cool and a breakdown here as well which kind of shows you um a real simple table format of allowable disallowable and total um this one's particularly useful for soul trait well this is all for sole traders but this is particularly useful because these categories on the left here are actually hmrc's categories okay yeah so they're really quite long and we didn't want that on all of our transactions so we actually mapped our styling categories to the hmrc categories okay yeah so that you can have your own categories but it also helps you fill in an actual form you have to send to hmrc yeah so that's for the um self-employed part of a full self-assessment form so the essay 103 form which f sorry at the end yeah very important um yeah and so those line items that you just saw they map across to that particular form that you have to fill out and so if you categorize everything correctly and adjust your tax depending on whether it was allowable or just allowable it should all flow through and help you with your estimate for it and then the idea really is that you start saving from day one for your tax liability rather than getting to tax payment time and uh running out of money yeah and it seems like an interesting exercise as well if only from a from a product perspective of mapping up those different like categories that starling's defined with the tax elements we've done something very similar within our own product at 11 fs and found it to be a little bit of a nightmare you know the hierarchy aspect of information is is something that was quite new to us as a concept so um i'm sure he probably knows like the mastercard categories like off by heart now after having to map like how many like ten thousand categories on the map mcc codes to categories um but it all then it flows through right so it was worth the pain now you know everything is to know about tax i guess which is probably the other benefit of this we do know quite a lot about taxes well it's constantly changing so you know the the scottish tax rates change in april with covert there's bat rate changes and so it's not as though right here it is here's a tax tool we're constantly having to keep up with all of the changes with from hmrce and update and be on top of things so that things are there for when the deadlines to to me for the the the rate changes come in yeah for sure um cool so a few questions on this um we'll probably go through them quite quickly but if if you kind of um if you think about sort of the um the kind of like the allowable and and non-allowable from a tax perspective um how does that work where do you get the kind of instructions for those and how do you think about mapping them out and you know yeah categorizing them okay yeah so from hmrc um it is quite a gray area so there are lots of nuances around it um and so for each category we've provided a description um as to what is considered to be allowable or disallowable um and then areas where it's probably worth asking your accountant um and and so we it's the main one really is um business entertainment um that is not allowable it is just disallowable everything else um is either it's kind of more black and white and then some of them will have some some little rules around it and so we tried to provide guidance for customers um around that and so it's giving them the flexibility and putting the power in their hands because there's no way that we could really know whether or not this particular amazon shop was for um you know big um and was a stationary shop or whether it was like a bottle of champagne to send to your client like it's it's not possible to know and so it's just providing the customer with the flexibility and some of the knowledge um and it has to come from hmrc right because that's the source of truth we yeah yeah that's it that's exactly right um and so uh i guess we'll race onto the vat part now um just um just to touch on this before um we actually watched the video the kind of the ability to kind of calculate your v80 um uses this hmrc tool making tax digital which is as you were mentioning i think uh previously um sort of this initiative which directly links um the from your product to hmrc um how did you kind of um was this the main initiative that you're thinking about when you were building it was did you have how did you discover that this was something you could use and um and in what way uh do you how how pivotal is do you think this to your product when we started doing the vat tool we kind of thought it was going to be much much simpler than it has ended up being um huh famous last words i know so we i we started off by saying let's you know let's just create some kind of estimation where just 20 goes in and 20 comes out and we come up with a number and it's just like an estimation but when we started speaking to customers looking at actually what hmsc does allow us to do meant that everything from a vat perspective is just based on your transactional data so what we have managed to do is enable customers to choose okay what was that transaction and give them the options to say actually this was from the eu actually this was a capital good all of these niche things that we'd never i never knew about until doing this and that has meant that we can do all the calculations in the background to actually produce a fully fledged calculated accurately that return that you can send to hmrc so it went from we only support two two of the vat schemes right there are like yeah quite a lot of different bat schemes um we support flat rate cash and the cash scheme um because that is based on your actual transactional data that come on the day that you receive the money or you spend it yeah yeah yeah so we thought it was going to be much you know just an estimation and then realize there was a massive opportunity no banks do this um that we know of caveat if there is a bank out there sorry i did nothing um it's gone a long journey um and let's see in action um products available from hmrc which you can access via this tool um i guess we start off by connecting in the top right hand side there there is the ability to um select what i would say oh sorry just to add to what you said about a product i wouldn't say making tax digital is a product from hmrc what they provide is kind of the apis to for other products to kind of be able to do all of the fun calculation of all of that and what hmrc do is yeah once you grant the authority to connect is the the actual ability to send that data and retrieve like what they call obligations which is what these are these date periods that's an obligation so hmrc is saying i'm expecting about return a number for the for this period cool we can also pull back previous things that you have sent to hmrc as well which is really great and they're done over they work in small batches of time um it looks like here is that what's going on so you can have monthly quarterly or annual fat returns um and say whatever it is that you've set will pull through from hmrc um based on whatever it is that you've selected and then we use all of that data i think we spoke about before um where you can select your different back treatments and it all pulls through into these nine boxes which is what you would fill out in your bat return if you weren't using our toolkit um that's kind of the standard format for them okay so all hmrc care about are these nine numbers and what we're certifying is that kind of those nine numbers have been calculated correctly based on what the user inputs so we've now submitted that and what we can actually also do is go ahead and make a payment so this november one we can see that there's a payment required because we've already submitted it we can actually go through and make that payment through to hmrc and is that done via an api or is that a more manual process that is um all set up automated as well so hmrc's details are in there automatically and you just have to click through to make the payment sure very cool um well there's an awful lot going on here which is it's really compelling um do you uh just to start off with then you mentioned like this idea of boxes which is the first the first thing to note i guess is that they they come labeled as boxes now for me you mentioned also there the fact that they care about those nine numbers it wouldn't necessarily uh i wonder why they were presented as boxes if you yeah i think that's a fair question and probably not one i've thought about before and it will be because when this was when the vat return was created it would have been a piece of paper that you send to hmrc and those boxes would have been physical boxes on a sheet of paper that you're filling in to say so those things are just like how much revenue have you made during this period how much um vats have you got in this period what about from the european union so those boxes would have literally just been boxes on a page and i guess now that it's digital it does kind of feel a bit weird saying that but it's just simply those numbers okay um so it's like a you're carrying over the terminology in the language and maybe a previous process and i guess it kind of works there as well because maybe a user might be familiar with those as the the industry yeah we're totally using hmrc's terminology and replicating exactly what they would be um expecting and that all the language if you if you look online it's all around these boxes so do you uh we've also touched on that in that video in the fact that this is hmrc have not in fact built a product here but a series of apis which you can integrate with um and i guess the next question was what was the experience like of working with those apis um were they um were they easy to use and um and so on do you want to take this actually yeah so hmrc were yeah really helpful uh the whole way through um in terms of providing us with what we needed and um they had a sandbox but you couldn't do an end-to-end journey and test it through so our engineers had to build a sound box and the simulator so we could test that and then uh we could sell it to hmrc so that you know we've made this really awesome sandbox that you can use with the other people um but we didn't they didn't have a great one to start with you should definitely sell that to hmrc i'm sure they would they would have so much trouble building that that thing themselves presumably that it would just be great for them to have it out of the box like this uh yeah i'll i'll let victoria pitch it to them but um um yeah the moment of truth really was when we had a real customer go through the journey and to end uh to see it working because it was difficult to do in the sandbox um but yeah i know we've had quite a few submissions now so uh it's all good and did you have you had that customer coming in to the office in order to do that would you do it yeah sort of tried i've been of having that person come in-house to do it yeah so pre-covered i'm gonna say that so that's why they came into the office uh so yes try to find um anyone from within the organization who happened to need to do their vat return within the next couple of weeks because we couldn't do like a test payment like all the way through um but we just had to find a friendly customer who um so we and i'm very thankful to that customer for coming in and being our test case well this is the interesting thing because um i i remember speaking uh recently to someone from a product manager from credit kudos who came on and talked about their own experience of building products for that particular market you know for that particular audience of people of um who tend to be um i do a very nice job of underwriting credit decisions and saying like how do you do testing on users when like the people you need to test on are that niche and they're that hard to get hold of and they probably don't need the money that comes from user testing or anything like that they're just sort of like um so there's so many problems affiliated with it did you have any kind of um did you encounter any issues about actually tracking down the right people to speak to about this feature and how to um make it usable from their perspective we did quite a lot of um testing like upfront that wasn't specifically about this submission so we had like i don't know 50 people that we met face to face regularly engaged with so and then through our beta we um had an inbox that they could message so it was actually we found that people really wanted to be involved which was nice but i appreciate it yeah when we got people to sign up for the beta um we also noted whether or not they were that registered so when we needed to test specific bits of the toolkit we knew who to reach out to to test those bits and so that really helped and collecting that information up front yeah yeah so it's a you know i guess the more users you get on the product the easier it is to test on it it's a probably that chicken and egg situation whereby the first customer is really important in that regard um that first person comes into the office in those halcyon days before lockdown um cool and and then we touched on this a little bit in the uh in the actual recording there uh over the video but there is a payment element to this as well where you wanted to um where there was a provision of information from hmrc which you then created a payment to uh then presumably you're not able to initiate payments for when the product yeah like i wouldn't imagine that initiation services are part of the deal but maybe um is it is there anything that goes on there with technical or a product perspective to generate that payment um so we are using so when earlier when we saw it someone might have put aside the money into a savings space um what we do is actually if they have that money in that savings space we then say do you want to make a payment we initiate the payment using our payment service that we normally have so when you initiate a payment from your online bank you go into your app and you approve the payment so we're using existing styling functionality but specifically for this use case and it takes it from the saving space that you have set up for that and closes that down and marks it as paid so i think and maybe i misunderstood what you were saying about not having the payment thing within the product but do you know what it's about like payment verification authentication i guess um i guess my question there was just a sneaky one to try and see if you were doing a certain um payment functionality from open banking so i guess uh we'll see um cool so uh any anything else to add to that sergeant uh no i think it victorious pretty much covered it we take the reference from hmrc it all ties up together and then they send us back on their end once they've processed the payment um and then it adds it gets added to another tab payment received hit because it's not paid hmrc doesn't um take the payment you like in terms of what hmrc is doing so we the user has to decide to make that payment um cool um and finally just before we wrap up uh any uh big plans obviously this has been a quite a long process for you uh and the rest of this wide-ranging team over the past few months uh ever since that remedy is funding but do you have anything else you'd like to achieve in the rest of the year from this product's perspective and maybe more widely within the business as well uh we only launched last week um so we've got some um wrinkles to iron out and then we have loads of feedback from customers things that they would like to see in the toolkit including things like different payment methods for invoices accountant access things like that so we'll be working through those uh and seeing what what will have the biggest impact basically and the greatest reach uh and working through those great anything else victoria nothing nothing more specifically to add for the toolkit i just know that the more users we start to get than the wider use cases we're going to see so the challenge for us is going to be to not try and scatter gun do everything and really think carefully about okay what's going to have the biggest impact on the largest group of our customers and but we're certainly we're certainly not stopping here great well thank you both very much for coming on and um we look forward to see what happens in the coming months with the product great thanks a lot thank you if you want to hear a little bit more about pulse the platform that underlies this show then head over to pulse.11fs.com that's essentially a repository of all the different digital banking experiences we've been gathering over the years uh it'll show you how stuff's being built what all the cool things are out there and what your competitors are doing [Music]