Create Your Coaching Bill Format for Production Effortlessly

Coaching bill format for Production

Speaker 1: So are you wondering what it takes to turn Speaker 1: your clients into raving fans who will work Speaker 1: with you again and again and refer you to Speaker 1: other new clients again and again? Speaker 1: Well, find out on this episode of the Speaker 1: Enough Ready Podcast. Speaker 1: And welcome to the Enough Ready Podcast. Speaker 1: This is the show for consultants and Speaker 1: coaches who want to forge their own paths Speaker 1: to success in their businesses, in their Speaker 1: careers, in their lives. Speaker 1: I'm your host, betsy Jordan. Speaker 1: I'm a business mentor and a brand messaging Speaker 1: strategist for remarkable consultants and Speaker 1: coaches and their unique strengths. Speaker 1: You can find out more about my VIP Speaker 1: mentoring, messaging and brand services at Speaker 1: my website at wwwbetsyjordancom. Speaker 1: So let's talk about what we're going to be Speaker 1: talking about today. Speaker 1: One thing we all want as consultants and Speaker 1: coaches is to make a powerful difference Speaker 1: with our clients. Speaker 1: This is why we left our nine to fives in Speaker 1: the first place. Speaker 1: But the other thing that we want as Speaker 1: business owners is for these clients to Speaker 1: become referral sources to new clients, and Speaker 1: it's not always clear on how to make that Speaker 1: happen. Speaker 1: So it's for this reason I'm super excited Speaker 1: to bring on the show my colleague and Speaker 1: friend, bill Lee. Speaker 1: He is the founder of the Center for Speaker 1: Customer Engagement, which is a consulting Speaker 1: firm dedicated to helping businesses grow Speaker 1: through customer focus and engagement. Speaker 1: He's the author of a bunch of books and Speaker 1: he's worked with world-class companies like Speaker 1: Apple and Subaru and so many more, and he's Speaker 1: a fan of Campbell's Heroes Journey, like I Speaker 1: Am, which we're going to talk all about Speaker 1: later. Speaker 1: So, without further ado, welcome to the Speaker 1: show, bill. Speaker 2: Thank you, betsy, it's great to be here. Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about your Speaker 1: background, because I know you are a lawyer Speaker 1: and you left law and you became a business Speaker 1: owner. Speaker 1: But I'm not 100% clear and I know my Speaker 1: audience would love to know a little bit Speaker 1: about how you went from being this type of Speaker 1: professional to having your own business. Speaker 2: Well, my background is all over the place. Speaker 2: You're right, I have a lot of great. Speaker 2: I also worked in business in a couple of Speaker 2: industry, in two or three industries, Speaker 2: including construction, manufacturing, and Speaker 2: the government Department of Defense has Speaker 2: worked in the Department of Defense during Speaker 2: one of the administrations. Speaker 2: So what got me into this? Speaker 2: You know, the focus of my business is Speaker 2: customers, as you pointed out, and what I Speaker 2: found was a couple of things. Speaker 2: Well, a few things. Speaker 2: Number one I work almost entirely with tech Speaker 2: firms and they're not great at customer Speaker 2: relationships. Speaker 2: They're all about the technology, about the Speaker 2: product. Speaker 2: It's all about the product, and they have Speaker 2: trouble wrapping their heads around them. Speaker 2: No, it's about the customer. Speaker 2: That's number one. Speaker 2: And secondly, I myself was a customer in Speaker 2: the industries that I just mentioned that Speaker 2: are often customers of technology firms Speaker 2: construction, government, manufacturing. Speaker 2: Those are all big verticals for tech firms. Speaker 2: And then, finally, what I found purely by Speaker 2: mistake, is that there are these huge tech Speaker 2: firms. Speaker 2: In the late 90s, early 2000s, they were Speaker 2: building these things called customer Speaker 2: reference organizations. Speaker 2: They had actually managers managing this, Speaker 2: and I remember this factoid at Hewlett Speaker 2: Packard that they had 7,000 customer Speaker 2: references globally and they had people Speaker 2: measuring this, because at that point in Speaker 2: time in tech. Speaker 2: They could no longer get away with talking Speaker 2: about how flashy and state of the art the Speaker 2: technology is and so forth, and so these Speaker 2: big million dollar deals. Speaker 2: That was clearly not working by the late Speaker 2: 90s. Speaker 2: So they had to get actual customers who Speaker 2: would vouch for the technology. Speaker 2: They weren't just going to take your word Speaker 2: for it, they wanted to hear from up here, Speaker 2: from another customer. Speaker 2: So I found this and I thought this is a Speaker 2: huge resource for to have and organize Speaker 2: these customers like this, form them into Speaker 2: communities and so forth. Speaker 2: It occurred to me this is an extremely Speaker 2: valuable resource they have and they're not Speaker 2: coming close to reaping its potential to Speaker 2: grow the business. Speaker 2: So that was kind of the genesis of my Speaker 2: business. Speaker 1: So for you it sounds like, then is just you Speaker 1: witnessed that there was a gap in the Speaker 1: market. Speaker 1: Other people were not focusing on this and, Speaker 1: because of your personal experience, being Speaker 1: on both sides being the customer and being Speaker 1: in the organization is like wow this is an Speaker 1: opportunity. Speaker 1: I want to build a business around this. Speaker 1: Is that? Speaker 2: right, that is correct. Speaker 1: So what is it about companies being focused Speaker 1: on customers that's so important to you, Speaker 1: Like what drives your passion for what you Speaker 1: do? Speaker 1: Not just the opportunity, but why do you Speaker 1: care about that particular gap? Speaker 2: Well, that's an excellent question and you Speaker 2: actually hit on it in your introduction. Speaker 2: You have advice and you work with clients Speaker 2: that want to make a difference, that want Speaker 2: to have a purpose. Speaker 2: That's beyond the money or whatever the Speaker 2: material rewards. Speaker 2: Those are great, they're necessary, but you Speaker 2: were talking about something more, and Speaker 2: that's purpose. Speaker 2: That's what drives me. Speaker 2: These are people, and when I find companies Speaker 2: like, especially like Apple or Salesforce Speaker 2: and others, they don't just create a Speaker 2: product to sell. Speaker 2: It meets all the features and the benefits Speaker 2: and so forth. Speaker 2: You got to have that stuff, but that stuff Speaker 2: is boring. Speaker 2: It's boring. Speaker 2: What excites people is not that side of the Speaker 2: brain, it's the right side, the creative Speaker 2: part. Speaker 2: That's where you have the sense of purpose Speaker 2: and that you're doing something that's not Speaker 2: selling to your profits. Speaker 2: What a pathetic way to motivate employees. Speaker 2: Yes, you got to have that, but that's not a Speaker 2: good motivator. Speaker 2: What we're doing is that we are improving Speaker 2: our business. Speaker 2: We're improving our customers' lives. Speaker 2: That's what we're here for. Speaker 2: If you're not making a product or a service Speaker 2: or whatever it is you're offering and you Speaker 2: can't articulate how this is improving, if Speaker 2: all you can talk about is the features, the Speaker 2: benefits and blah, blah, blah, then I Speaker 2: encourage you find someplace else to work Speaker 2: or find some other business to start where Speaker 2: you can say I can tell you exactly how this Speaker 2: is improving our customers' lives. Speaker 2: It's making their lives easier, it's making Speaker 2: their lives more convenient, it's making Speaker 2: their lives. Speaker 2: It's taking away a very unfun drudgery in Speaker 2: their lives, and you're taking away that Speaker 2: and making it simpler, easier so that they Speaker 2: can do the things that really enhance their Speaker 2: lives. Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that and I love the whole idea Speaker 1: of like even taking a company that's just Speaker 1: all about our product or service or a Speaker 1: product that seems like technical in nature, Speaker 1: and talking about the why, like. Speaker 1: One of my new favorite things is my Stanley Speaker 1: cup, and I'm not an endorser. Speaker 1: I specifically have Stanley, but I don't Speaker 1: really care about the tech of why. Speaker 1: What goes into my cup that makes it stay Speaker 1: cold all day. Speaker 1: What I really like is that this is Speaker 1: something that I could have a communion all Speaker 1: day long to help me stay healthy and feel Speaker 1: like my best self. Speaker 1: I like that it comes in pink because that Speaker 1: kind of matches it, but I like that it has Speaker 1: this little thing down here so I could take Speaker 1: it on the car. Speaker 1: I don't really care, oh, and I like that Speaker 1: they have certain things like this, like a Speaker 1: little cute little thing on top I could Speaker 1: personalize it, but I don't really care Speaker 1: about the technology behind it as a Speaker 1: consumer. Speaker 1: Why is it there's so many companies like Speaker 1: Stanley I think does a great job like Speaker 1: really talking about like how it's gonna Speaker 1: make your life better rather than talking Speaker 1: about the tech. Speaker 1: Why is there so many companies that just Speaker 1: have a really hard time just getting Speaker 1: outside of like what they do and get into Speaker 1: the hearts and minds of the people that Speaker 1: they serve and the impact that they wanna Speaker 1: make. Speaker 2: You know, it's because they're not used to Speaker 2: that. Speaker 2: There's a couple for tech, for my industry Speaker 2: it's they're not used to that. Speaker 2: Secondly, these are tech folks and I'm not Speaker 2: saying anything that everybody doesn't Speaker 2: realize, including the techs. Speaker 2: They don't get human dynamics real well. Speaker 2: That's not their thing. Speaker 2: Many of them are on the spectrum and so Speaker 2: forth, and it's just not something that Speaker 2: they resonate with. Speaker 2: That's, to be frank, that's a lot of it and Speaker 2: they've gotta learn that. Speaker 2: So then, for years, you know the value Speaker 2: proposition that I offer to these companies Speaker 2: is quite good for the company, but it's Speaker 2: taken a long time to educate folks. Speaker 2: And finally, what I realized was that the Speaker 2: only way they're gonna get this and start Speaker 2: moving more towards the purpose side of Speaker 2: your customer relationships is that they're Speaker 2: gonna have to, and right now we're in a Speaker 2: situation we're in an economy now where Speaker 2: that's becoming the case. Speaker 2: So we can talk about that if you want, but Speaker 2: it's hard for I think, probably for most Speaker 2: firms and most industries to orient Speaker 2: themselves around what's the customer and Speaker 2: how are we improving their lives. Speaker 2: It's hard for them to do it and they've got Speaker 2: this crazy quarterly financial returns to Speaker 2: look at the every quarter. Speaker 2: They're working about making the freaking Speaker 2: numbers and so forth. Speaker 2: I can be thinking about a long distance, a Speaker 2: long over time and ongoing relationship. Speaker 2: If you're always having to stop everything Speaker 2: and look at those numbers, so it's spot on. Speaker 2: It's best for everything to have that Speaker 2: orientation. Speaker 2: It's best for your customers, of course, Speaker 2: it's best for the company. Speaker 2: It's a great way to disrupt an industry Speaker 2: where they're not doing that. Speaker 2: There's some amazing examples of this in Speaker 2: industries where the whole industry is Speaker 2: doing this. Speaker 2: You know, lift brain. Speaker 2: It's about the numbers, it's about the Speaker 2: sales and so forth. Speaker 2: And then somebody comes in and disrupts all Speaker 2: that and says we're gonna be the opposite Speaker 2: and then over the course of the next eight Speaker 2: or 10 years, boom. Speaker 2: Their market share goes like all the others Speaker 2: are like just poking in the long or maybe Speaker 2: sideways, and then this new entrant comes Speaker 2: and it's cool. Speaker 2: Pretty soon they're the market leader. Speaker 2: Lots of these interests. Speaker 1: It's interesting that there's like this Speaker 1: really solid business case that you can Speaker 1: compete and not perform and behave the Speaker 1: competition If you get focused on the Speaker 1: customers, but it's like the short-term Speaker 1: mentality is really what I'm hearing. Speaker 1: It's not even like right or left brain, Speaker 1: it's like the short-term mentality. Speaker 1: Like, for example, I worked with an Speaker 1: organization it was a large hospitality Speaker 1: organization. Speaker 1: They had me come in and do lots of customer Speaker 1: qualitative research. Speaker 1: So I interviewed over a hundred customers Speaker 1: and every single one of them had a singular Speaker 1: thing that they had to say. Speaker 1: They said that they love the product but Speaker 1: they didn't like the sales process and if Speaker 1: they could change the sales process they Speaker 1: would buy more product. Speaker 1: And they were clear and a hundred percent Speaker 1: of all of the customers I talked to they Speaker 1: really hated the sales process. Speaker 1: But when I presented the information, I got Speaker 1: information to the leadership. Speaker 1: When I have all of this data behind? Speaker 1: it they just couldn't hear it. Speaker 1: And then they wound up, kept doing it the Speaker 1: way that they're doing it and I'm sure that Speaker 1: they're about to get like Netflix, from Speaker 1: like kind of like the old blockbuster time, Speaker 1: like if blockbuster is talking to customers, Speaker 1: they might've thought about Netflix. Speaker 1: And then even Netflix has got all this Speaker 1: competition. Speaker 1: Why is it that, even with the data, the Speaker 1: left brain people with the data to say, if Speaker 1: you could focus on your customers, you'll Speaker 1: get short-term and long-term gains. Speaker 2: Why would they still? Speaker 1: resist. Speaker 2: It's? Speaker 2: Well, it's. Speaker 2: I'll tell you what it's that. Speaker 2: Those are entrenched practices that go back Speaker 2: decades and decades sales process and so Speaker 2: forth. Speaker 2: You've got people who've devoted their Speaker 2: careers to this and so forth, and some of Speaker 2: them simply can't imagine anything, that Speaker 2: they don't care about the data, it doesn't Speaker 2: matter. Speaker 2: They're thinking back here. Speaker 2: This is my career. Speaker 2: I've been doing forever. Speaker 2: That's not for me, whatever. Speaker 2: The only thing, what I'm, what we're Speaker 2: finding now, however, in the tech industry, Speaker 2: is that the economy has changed. Speaker 2: They can no longer with the usual marketing Speaker 2: marketing's the same way. Speaker 2: How many people consume marketing? Speaker 2: How many people go to websites to see what Speaker 2: companies do you know? Speaker 2: You wanna ask your friends? Speaker 2: Anyway, they. Speaker 2: So you got sales marketing support. Speaker 2: Those are generally conceived as the growth Speaker 2: drivers, the big three, and they're no Speaker 2: longer creating profits. Speaker 2: It's they're doing. Speaker 2: It's what that translate, that work. Speaker 2: You did the research you did. Speaker 2: What that means to the board is this is too Speaker 2: inefficient. Speaker 2: We can't make profits like our investors Speaker 2: expect. Speaker 2: It's becoming too expensive. Speaker 2: That's what'll move their back sides, and Speaker 2: that's what's doing it now. Speaker 2: And so maybe you've spent your career on Speaker 2: this and maybe that's the only way you see Speaker 2: how to do it. Speaker 2: Well, what that means in this world is Speaker 2: you're out. Speaker 2: We need to do it. Speaker 2: We need. Speaker 2: That's the game. Speaker 2: That's hard, you know. Speaker 2: Corporations are conservative by nature, so Speaker 2: it's hard. Speaker 2: But when the board is grumbling and they're Speaker 2: not getting their return and the investors Speaker 2: are not getting their returns, that's what Speaker 2: moves these companies and that's right Speaker 2: right now, when I'm working with some Speaker 2: people, to start taking this and we're no Speaker 2: longer and this maybe relevant to your Speaker 2: audience you can't make these kinds of Speaker 2: changes at the mid-level. Speaker 2: You've got to do it at the board level. Speaker 2: That's what we're working on is reaching Speaker 2: them. Speaker 2: I find when I find lower-level people you Speaker 2: know VP, you know VP's, maybe SVP's even Speaker 2: they are sometimes receptive to this. Speaker 2: But when I get to the, I have the easiest. Speaker 2: The easiest conversations I have are with Speaker 2: CEOs. Speaker 2: They're the ones that go. Speaker 2: This is interesting because of the things Speaker 2: we've just been talking about. Speaker 2: So don't sell yourself short and think well, Speaker 2: you can only go to those lower levels. Speaker 2: What would you say to a CEO? Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you something today. Speaker 2: There's a time you can say to them. Speaker 2: I've got a clip from when we were beta Speaker 2: testing this. Speaker 2: It's about a year old. Speaker 2: It's about a five minute clip showing the Speaker 2: reactions of a couple of CEOs hearing this Speaker 2: for the first time. Speaker 2: It's extraordinary. Speaker 1: It's interesting in this scenario that I'm Speaker 1: mentioning, it's like the CEO was totally Speaker 1: on board but he was part of a holding Speaker 1: company and the holding company was not on Speaker 1: board, and I think that it's to the things Speaker 1: that you were mentioning. Speaker 1: It seems like there's obviously the Speaker 1: business case for being a customer-centric, Speaker 1: customer-engaging organization. Speaker 1: It's like I'm from Disney. Speaker 1: There's no one else who does that one Speaker 1: better from really being focused on the Speaker 1: customer. Speaker 1: But what would hold people in the way, Speaker 1: especially in tech companies might be is Speaker 1: like they don't necessarily see the human Speaker 1: element at the same time. Speaker 1: Some of it might be the short-term pressure, Speaker 1: some of it is my identity is connected to Speaker 1: what I might have done in the past, so Speaker 1: that's kind of risky. Speaker 1: Some might be the fear of the unknown and Speaker 1: some might just be that short-term pressure Speaker 1: from those who might not see it. Speaker 1: But the best way is to. Speaker 1: It seems like the best way to convince a Speaker 1: leader and perhaps this is where your Speaker 1: interest in the hero's journey comes into Speaker 1: play is like providing kind of like an Speaker 1: integrated bit on business case the right Speaker 1: and left brain the one side is here's the Speaker 1: rational side, but then here's the Speaker 1: emotional purpose side and bringing those Speaker 1: things together to overcome whatever that Speaker 1: might be. Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm hearing this right or Speaker 1: I'm just putting words in your mouth, so Speaker 1: correct me. Speaker 2: Well, all of that stuff is important. Speaker 2: But I've got to the point. Speaker 2: I've got a partner that I'm doing this with. Speaker 2: I think we're both at this point. Speaker 2: If the person the prospective client or Speaker 2: buyer doesn't feel pain, they'll find the Speaker 2: pain point that cliche. Speaker 2: It's totally right. Speaker 2: They've got to have some kind of in general, Speaker 2: some kind of pain. Speaker 2: So if you're talking like, you're talking Speaker 2: about the holding company and the CEO and Speaker 2: so forth, so what's you know like for the Speaker 2: holding company? Speaker 2: I haven't worked with many holding Speaker 2: companies but I would say that it's Speaker 2: probably the financials for their customers. Speaker 2: And the CEO is also probably it's certainly Speaker 2: going to have, at least for her company Speaker 2: start there. Speaker 2: And then you have to be able to show that Speaker 2: what you're providing with all the great Speaker 2: things and the you know Joseph Campbell Speaker 2: inspiring stuff and all the tons of it. Speaker 2: It's very inspiring stuff. Speaker 2: But that gets nowhere until you make that Speaker 2: connection with that thing that they're Speaker 2: afraid of, and it's usually the financials. Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Speaker 1: So you can find the angle of like what Speaker 1: their pain is and still speak to that pain Speaker 1: as the starting point. Speaker 2: That makes sense. Speaker 2: Leave it again, yes. Speaker 1: So you've been in a business, you've been a Speaker 1: business owner for a while and you have Speaker 1: worked with a lot of, or you're surrounded Speaker 1: by, a lot of, consultants and coaches. Speaker 1: I know you and I met as a part of a Speaker 1: professional network of a bunch of Speaker 1: consultants. Speaker 1: What would you say to consultants and Speaker 1: coaches that are listening, who are wanting Speaker 1: to work with organizations and share your Speaker 1: passion for having those organizations Speaker 1: really have the client as the center of Speaker 1: their business and having that purpose at Speaker 1: the center of the business? Speaker 1: What would you say to them, regardless of Speaker 1: their specific area of expertise like yours Speaker 1: is obviously, in helping them create that Speaker 1: customer engagement? Speaker 1: But what if they have all kinds of other Speaker 1: expertise? Speaker 1: What if they're HR consultants, leadership Speaker 1: consultants, leadership coaches or, you Speaker 1: know, operational consultants, productivity, Speaker 1: sales? Speaker 1: What would you say to them about Speaker 1: integrating some type of customer-centric Speaker 1: approach to how they are advising the Speaker 1: leaders that they're working with? Speaker 2: Start by mentioning none of that. Speaker 2: Don't start with that. Speaker 2: People are so proud of what they do and so Speaker 2: proud of the results that they can get and Speaker 2: so forth. Speaker 2: They come in and they can't wait to tell Speaker 2: the prospect. Speaker 2: Look at all these amazing things that we've Speaker 2: done. Speaker 2: Don't start there. Speaker 2: Start with what's top of their mind. Speaker 2: You've got to find out what is top of their Speaker 2: mind, and that's where you start. Speaker 2: And then you just you talk about that. Speaker 2: Tell me about it. Speaker 2: Tell me more. Speaker 2: Listen Lots of listening. Speaker 2: Don't sit there and wait for the Speaker 2: opportunity. Speaker 2: Oh, here's an opening for me to talk about Speaker 2: my shiny, bright thing. Speaker 2: Don't do that. Speaker 2: Talk about it until you start getting a Speaker 2: real understanding of what's on her head. Speaker 1: So it's almost like practicing what you Speaker 1: would ultimately be preaching. Speaker 1: First is, go in and be customer-centric. Speaker 1: Go in and be client-centric, Find out more Speaker 1: where they're at their pain and then maybe Speaker 1: align what you talk about to what they care Speaker 1: about. Speaker 2: That's right. Speaker 2: That's what a good. Speaker 2: Whether it's a salesperson, whether it's a Speaker 2: services person, and so forth, you want to. Speaker 2: That's where you want to start. Speaker 1: So a lot of the consultants and coaches Speaker 1: that I work with struggle with the same Speaker 1: thing as your tech companies do. Speaker 1: They have a really hard time for a variety Speaker 1: of different reasons which we could explore Speaker 1: a little bit more of, like why is it so Speaker 1: hard for consultants and coaches similar to Speaker 1: your companies? Speaker 1: Why is it so hard for them to really Speaker 1: identify and see who the customer is that Speaker 1: they ultimately want to serve and organize Speaker 1: their business, or they're consulting or Speaker 1: coaching practice around that? Speaker 2: Well, I think what you want to do is well, Speaker 2: that's a big question. Speaker 2: The scenario could be all right. Speaker 2: This is somebody I know, this is in an Speaker 2: industry with an offering that I'm Speaker 2: experienced at, or maybe it's something Speaker 2: that you're moving into a new area and add, Speaker 2: like you were saying earlier, to your Speaker 2: repertoire. Speaker 2: So there's, you know those, but I think Speaker 2: there's a fundamental commonality to them Speaker 2: and that is get to know them. Speaker 2: Get to know them as people get to know them Speaker 2: and, of course, that includes the work that Speaker 2: they do or the areas of responsibility, Speaker 2: responsibility that they have and make sure Speaker 2: you understand that. Speaker 2: You know that's relevant to what you can do Speaker 2: for them and get to know them. Speaker 1: But what if somebody's listening and say I Speaker 1: don't know who my ideal client is? Speaker 1: That's great for you. Speaker 1: Bill, like you knew, you wanted to work at Speaker 1: tech companies who are struggling. Speaker 1: You know, in a certain way, what about me? Speaker 1: What would you tell to that person to help Speaker 1: them identify who might be? Speaker 1: You know their unique niche and who they Speaker 1: should be serving? Speaker 2: You know that's tough. Speaker 2: I've not thought about that much. Speaker 2: I mean, I found mine by serendipity, I Speaker 2: think a lot of times those connections or Speaker 2: when that clicks, I can help these people. Speaker 2: Blah, blah, blah, blah. Speaker 2: That you know that's, but it's a hard one, Speaker 2: it's definitely. Speaker 2: And the thing to do is probably to start Speaker 2: with what you're good at, not with your. Speaker 2: I'm not a believer in pursuing your passion Speaker 2: yeah, I'm not a big fan of that. Speaker 2: I think what we need, I think our task on Speaker 2: this planet, is to find what we're good at. Speaker 2: And sometimes people think, well, what if I Speaker 2: don't like what I'm good at? Speaker 2: And it's kind of like, well, it's. Speaker 2: For me it's sort of a cosmic reality that Speaker 2: it wasn't our. Speaker 2: It wasn't our, you know, it wasn't our Speaker 2: decision of what we're good at. Speaker 2: That wasn't necessarily our decision. Speaker 2: But to me it's sort of like, whatever you Speaker 2: want to call it, the universe or God or my Speaker 2: higher power, this is the gifts I've been Speaker 2: given and that's. Speaker 2: And then, and then find ways to do it. Speaker 2: And that makes your life, once you grab Speaker 2: your, your, your own, your arms around that, Speaker 2: your hands around that, life becomes Speaker 2: actually a lot easier, because if you have, Speaker 2: if you really have a strength, you're Speaker 2: better. Speaker 2: You're first of all, you're going to be Speaker 2: better than the competition. Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. Speaker 2: A lot of people do this. Speaker 2: Oh, there's an opportunity, there's a hot Speaker 2: market, there's a blah, blah, blah and and. Speaker 2: But this is something you're doing that Speaker 2: you're really good. Speaker 2: This kind of gets a little bit into Joseph Speaker 2: Campbell, I think. Speaker 2: And so that's your gift, that's your gift Speaker 2: to give to the world, and that's that's a Speaker 2: place. Speaker 2: That's a place to start. Speaker 2: You know, there's a, there's a great Speaker 2: question. Speaker 2: I'm a, I'm a, I'm a. Speaker 2: I'm also a fan of that cartoli, if you're Speaker 2: familiar, and he has a great perspective. Speaker 2: He says don't, how does this go? Speaker 2: Don't ask yourself what I want out of life. Speaker 2: Ask what does life want from me? Speaker 1: Yes, no-transcript. Speaker 1: That's probably how I would define passion. Speaker 1: I think I'm with you on the whole idea of Speaker 1: like I just love this, I love this, Like Speaker 1: don't follow, like that kind of like Speaker 1: squishy kind of passion. Speaker 1: But I think you started your business with Speaker 1: passion, as passion isn't what you love, Speaker 1: it's what you hate, and it's like where you Speaker 1: see things that are broken that you want to Speaker 1: fix it. Speaker 1: So you saw a gap in the marketplace and now Speaker 1: I'm motivated. Speaker 1: Companies should be focusing on the Speaker 1: customers. Speaker 1: It's wrong when it's not. Speaker 1: You know, like that's the passion, you know, Speaker 1: and the gifting is the the how. Speaker 1: How you're supposed to help is based on Speaker 1: your unique strengths. Speaker 1: You know that you and I might have the same Speaker 1: exact passion, Like we both care very much Speaker 1: about companies being customer centric, but Speaker 1: you have different gifts than I do, so we Speaker 1: use them differently to create a different Speaker 1: kind of transformation based on that. Speaker 1: But I do agree with you and what you're Speaker 1: saying. Speaker 1: We're, with Eckhart Tolle, saying what Speaker 1: needs me, that's the passion. Speaker 1: Then the gifting is how, how do I show up? Speaker 1: Like, what would you say is your really Speaker 1: unique gifts that you're so good at that? Speaker 1: When people tell you like oh my gosh, Bill, Speaker 1: you're so amazing at this and you're like Speaker 1: ah, it's nothing Like what's yours. Speaker 2: Yeah, you know something, I I did some Speaker 2: assessments a couple of decades ago with Speaker 2: some people I knew and we agree, there was Speaker 2: a couple of people in that class myself and Speaker 2: another person and our in our conclusion Speaker 2: was, we had the same problem. Speaker 2: We were pretty good at a lot of things. Speaker 2: We went. Speaker 2: There wasn't one thing where we were whoa Speaker 2: off the charts. Speaker 2: My father was like that. Speaker 2: He was a builder, he was, that was his Speaker 2: thing From the time he was. Speaker 2: He was a young man, then in the Navy and so Speaker 2: forth. Speaker 2: He was a builder, no question. Speaker 2: And he was always asking me well, what do Speaker 2: you want to, what do you want to do? Speaker 2: I was trying all these things and I said Speaker 2: how am I supposed to even know that? Speaker 2: He knew it instinctually because that's Speaker 2: that was, that was his talent. Speaker 2: So I'm in the probably in a similar boat to Speaker 2: a lot of your clients who you know, kind of Speaker 2: like that that you know you're, you're not, Speaker 2: you're not sure, you're not sure what Speaker 2: you're really really good at. Speaker 2: I would say at this point in life, if I Speaker 2: don't have a pretty good idea at this point, Speaker 2: it's probably not going to. Speaker 2: It's probably not going to, it's not going Speaker 2: to happen. Speaker 2: But probably my, my, one of my biggest Speaker 2: strengths is and this I heard from other Speaker 2: people, I didn't realize it A lot of times Speaker 2: you don't know because you think, you think Speaker 2: everybody can what that can anybody do, Speaker 2: that this is easy. Speaker 2: Why would anybody? Speaker 2: Well, actually it is not easy for most Speaker 2: people. Speaker 2: For me, it's connecting people, putting Speaker 2: people together. Speaker 2: I seem to have a gift for putting the right Speaker 2: people together. Speaker 2: I mean, I've got, I've had, I've had, for Speaker 2: example, I've got a, a god daughter whose Speaker 2: parents I've introduced. Speaker 2: I introduced the parents and they have cute Speaker 2: four kids, a successful marriage and so Speaker 2: forth. Speaker 2: And then I helped connect my god daughter Speaker 2: to some people in Salesforce when she, when Speaker 2: she was finishing college, she had one of Speaker 2: these dreamy kinds of majors and when she Speaker 2: graduated it's like where am I going to get Speaker 2: a job with this? Speaker 2: You know it wasn't exactly the hot thing, Speaker 2: but she was extraordinary, she was a leader, Speaker 2: she was, she has excellent, outstanding Speaker 2: character, trades and so forth. Speaker 2: So I was able to help her connections in Speaker 2: Salesforce, one of the best techno and most Speaker 2: stable and most successful tech companies Speaker 2: ever, and I managed to get her to the right Speaker 2: people in Salesforce and she has a great. Speaker 2: She has a great career. Speaker 2: It's about 10 years ago and she found her Speaker 2: husband there. Speaker 2: So yeah, that was quite a quite a three or Speaker 2: four for there. Speaker 2: I got with with those two people way back Speaker 2: when. Speaker 1: So I love that because, like this networker, Speaker 1: connector, person is sounds like that Speaker 1: that's what you do in your consulting Speaker 1: business, is you connect these companies Speaker 1: with the customers and you bring them the Speaker 1: right company with the right customers and Speaker 1: bring them together and so like that is a Speaker 1: good example of your superpower, because it Speaker 1: would be something that shows up everywhere. Speaker 1: And I think it kind of goes to the theme of Speaker 1: what we were talking about on our show, Speaker 1: which is about how do you help, like a Speaker 1: consultant or coach, really create more Speaker 1: engaged customers or client relationships Speaker 1: and people who have referrals, and some of Speaker 1: it is it's like, just be in your zone of Speaker 1: genius because people will start talking Speaker 1: about that to other people would be a key Speaker 1: way. Speaker 1: I would, I think, based on what you're Speaker 1: talking about, because I could see this now, Speaker 1: like oh, now you told me this talent. Speaker 1: I'm like oh well, if I need to, I you're Speaker 1: the person I'm going to call, like, do you Speaker 1: know anyone who knows how to do this? Speaker 1: and chances are you probably can be like Speaker 1: yeah, absolutely Right now. Speaker 1: I know want to call you. Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. Speaker 2: And beware that you're not brushing off. Speaker 2: When I first heard this, I just brushed it Speaker 2: off. Speaker 2: What you know. Speaker 2: How is that going to be valuable to Speaker 2: somebody? Speaker 2: Why would they play an important part in my Speaker 2: career or in my consulting or whatever? Speaker 2: And I saw I resisted it. Speaker 2: I was a little, you know, I was a little, I Speaker 2: don't know, insulted, not insulted, but a Speaker 2: little bit like hey, don't you know I can Speaker 2: do other things. Speaker 2: I'm going to write her. Speaker 2: I'm a this, I'm a that. Speaker 2: You know. Speaker 2: You're connecting people Really, that's all Speaker 2: and over. Speaker 2: So don't discount those things, Don't Speaker 2: belittle those things, you know, be aware Speaker 2: of that and start looking for ways to use Speaker 2: that not to get rich, not to make a lot of Speaker 2: money, but to help other people out, and Speaker 2: then all the rewards will come. Speaker 2: Yeah, but don't, don't discount, don't Speaker 2: discount that. Speaker 1: Was it just in one time I interviewed one Speaker 1: of my former clients who I used to work Speaker 1: with. Speaker 1: He's a CEO and I worked with him for years Speaker 1: and years and years and I was asking him Speaker 1: about like well, why would CEOs hire Speaker 1: consultants and coaches? Speaker 1: And he was. Speaker 1: He was starting to mirror back. Speaker 1: Like well, you know, here's what you did Speaker 1: for me. Speaker 1: You helped me sort and organize all the Speaker 1: ideas in my head and help bring clarity Speaker 1: into my messages and what I was doing. Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, but what about my? Speaker 1: What am I my master's in organization Speaker 1: development? Speaker 1: He's like, oh, I don't care about that. Speaker 1: I'm like, well, what about? Speaker 1: Like I could do strategy? Speaker 1: I could do this. Speaker 1: He's like, no, I don't care about that, Speaker 1: it's this. Speaker 1: And, ironically, like that is what I get Speaker 1: paid to do now with my clients. Speaker 1: I help them sort and organize all their Speaker 1: ideas and put words to it. Speaker 1: It's the same skill set and it can go in a Speaker 1: lot of different ways. Speaker 1: And really what transformed me and my Speaker 1: business was really getting clear. Speaker 1: On like getting clear, getting curious when Speaker 1: people would call me up and ask for help, Speaker 1: like, well, what is it that you're looking Speaker 1: for for me which goes back to what you said Speaker 1: earlier about being a customer-centered Speaker 1: client center organization is ask, get Speaker 1: curious, and then you'll be surprised how Speaker 1: many times that you're they just Speaker 1: energetically can sense like this is what Speaker 1: you're gifting is and I need to tap into Speaker 1: that. Speaker 1: Not to be too woo, but that's kind of how I Speaker 1: see it. Speaker 2: Well there's. Speaker 2: You know the universe is full of woo. Speaker 2: You know it's full of all kinds of things Speaker 2: that are speaking to us. Speaker 2: I truly believe that. Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about your interest Speaker 1: in the hero's journey. Speaker 1: I just want to touch on that for just a Speaker 1: second, since that's a share of passion. Speaker 1: How'd you discover Campbell and how do you Speaker 1: see the relevance of Campbell to Speaker 1: consultants, coaches, business owners, Speaker 1: companies, you know? Speaker 1: How do you see the connection? Speaker 2: Well, I saw there was a television series Speaker 2: on PBS where we're, we're, we're. Speaker 1: Joseph Bill Moyers one. Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Speaker 1: The Bill Moyers interviews. Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Speaker 1: So good, so good, the power of myth. Speaker 2: And I and I just I don't know why I got Speaker 2: interested in that, but when I started Speaker 2: watching it I was just drawn to it and it's Speaker 2: like I thought it was amazing. Speaker 2: I'm this, this guy. Speaker 2: I mean, he was you know, he was, he was Speaker 2: into mythology and all these. Speaker 2: You know, he was an academic. Speaker 2: I thought, you know that sounds kind of Speaker 2: boring to me, but this guy was also very Speaker 2: you know, he was the Olympic champion, I Speaker 2: believe, on the Olympics and he had all Speaker 2: these interesting experiences. Speaker 2: So anyway, I tuned into it and it's like Speaker 2: kind of like. Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if you can condense Speaker 2: this into a, into a, into a short sentence, Speaker 2: but I think it's about what our lives are, Speaker 2: what our lives are, I think is is, and what Speaker 2: our lives are, is, is, is a story or a Speaker 2: succession of stories, and what fuels us Speaker 2: and and motivates us and so forth really Speaker 2: take the form of a story. Speaker 2: Stories are a very powerful way to Speaker 2: understand ourselves, to understand other Speaker 2: people and to build it, and it's a great Speaker 2: template around to build your company. Speaker 2: What story do you want your customers to Speaker 2: tell? Speaker 2: It's a great question to ask yourself about, Speaker 2: about your, about your business. Speaker 2: It's like, put away the freaking Speaker 2: spreadsheets or whatever. Speaker 2: You know the, the what, what, what you know. Speaker 2: Or you know the financials, the numbers or Speaker 2: the aligning, blah, blah, blah. Speaker 2: You know, get one person. Speaker 2: Steve Jobs only had one, one person in his, Speaker 2: in his company that that tracked all that Speaker 2: stuff. Speaker 2: He did not want his customer facing or his Speaker 2: customer impacting customers. Speaker 2: He did not want them worried about that. Speaker 2: He wanted them to think about the Speaker 2: experience and the story. Speaker 2: I mean he would, he would he realized, for Speaker 2: example, that when you buy, you can, you Speaker 2: can contrast everything that Mac did with, Speaker 2: like Microsoft. Speaker 2: You know Microsoft was ugly, was you know, Speaker 2: in the, in the in, like in the PCs and so Speaker 2: forth, they were ugly, they were, you know, Speaker 2: they were a pain to use and so forth. Speaker 2: From the moment you get a Mac and even a Speaker 2: box is is beautiful and it's, you open this Speaker 2: and it's like you're starting a movie or Speaker 2: something. Speaker 2: You're starting a story and then you start, Speaker 2: you pick and you pull it out. Speaker 2: It's very simple you plug in and guess what Speaker 2: happens when you plug it in and turn it on, Speaker 2: it works. Speaker 2: You don't have to look at the manual. Speaker 2: And this is going way back. Speaker 2: But this is back when Apple started being, Speaker 2: you know, made them so distinctive. Speaker 2: So it's an experience, it's a story you're Speaker 2: having with this device. Speaker 2: It's going to be part of your life and so Speaker 2: forth, and here are the ways that it will Speaker 2: help you with your life and enjoy it and so Speaker 2: forth. Speaker 2: It's all a journey and today, when people, Speaker 2: when companies promote their traditionally, Speaker 2: when they promote their stuff, again, it's Speaker 2: boring, like they, you know, it's hard for Speaker 2: them to make this really interesting. Speaker 2: And the way to make it really interesting Speaker 2: is to tell your customers stories. Speaker 2: You know, I think you know, in the best of Speaker 2: all worlds, websites would get rid of all Speaker 2: the word salads and all the you know, the Speaker 2: best of breed and global, blah, blah, blah, Speaker 2: blah. Speaker 2: And so take all that out and put your Speaker 2: customer's stories up there. Speaker 1: Yes, that's the way I look at. Speaker 1: Like every, every website page in the Speaker 1: website, in the whole you know, tells that Speaker 1: you know, here's the customer in their Speaker 1: current world. Speaker 1: Now they meet you, you're the mentor, Speaker 1: you're the guide, You're this and you Speaker 1: create some sort of transformation. Speaker 1: And so, like every, every website page Speaker 1: should begin with like you are struggling Speaker 1: with this, let me identify with you Now. Speaker 1: I'll introduce myself as your guide, your Speaker 1: helper, your solution. Speaker 2: That's one. Speaker 1: And now let's talk about the transformation. Speaker 1: And I think the transformation. Speaker 1: There is some of the resolution of pain Speaker 1: points, for sure, but then there's this Speaker 1: larger transformation. Speaker 1: So let's say, I get my Mac computer. Speaker 1: You know, like what's the transformation? Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it'll, it'll work for me, Speaker 1: it'll, you know, stay on as long as my day Speaker 1: is long, you know. Speaker 1: But then the transformation is like I have Speaker 1: the business tool to launch my business. Speaker 1: I have the business tool to do whatever it Speaker 1: is I want to do. Speaker 1: That's the, that's the heart stuff, that's Speaker 1: the cool stuff. Speaker 1: And I think especially from for the Speaker 1: listeners who are listening and now your Speaker 1: consultants and coaches. Speaker 1: You have a huge transformation story. Speaker 1: You can't always talk on the website at the Speaker 1: end of the story Like work with me and I'm Speaker 1: going to help you be your authentic self, Speaker 1: like that doesn't resonate, but show how Speaker 1: you're going to guide someone along the way. Speaker 1: Yes so you've got a. Speaker 1: You've got some books, you've got a lot Speaker 1: going on in your, in your world. Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit more specifically Speaker 1: about your business and how people can tap Speaker 1: in, tell us a little bit about how, where Speaker 1: they could buy your books and kind of what Speaker 1: your books are about? Speaker 2: Yes, I am, I'm semi-retired, I had started Speaker 2: to retire, and then I this a partner of Speaker 2: mine, jeff Lawrence. Speaker 2: He has a platform called slap fine, and Speaker 2: we're in the same. Speaker 2: He was, in fact, a sponsor at the Speaker 2: conference that I used to do every year. Speaker 2: And and what? Speaker 2: What we are seeing is the potential, this Speaker 2: untapped potential, of your customers to Speaker 2: grow your business. Speaker 2: And so we, you know, we commiserated over Speaker 2: this and so forth. Speaker 2: We weren't getting traction and getting the Speaker 2: traction that it deserved. Speaker 2: So we are now, since the pandemic, we are Speaker 2: realizing that what I was saying earlier, Speaker 2: we're only going to be talking to senior Speaker 2: level people, because, because mid-level Speaker 2: people can't wrap their heads around this. Speaker 2: They have, they have demands. Speaker 2: So far they don't have the power, they Speaker 2: don't have the budgets that they need, and Speaker 2: so forth. Speaker 2: So we're, you know, we're working at that Speaker 2: level. Speaker 2: So the the books I've read over two books, Speaker 2: one is the hidden wealth of customers. Speaker 1: It's probably hidden love or hidden wealth. Speaker 2: The hidden wealth of customers. Speaker 1: Great, I love that. Speaker 2: And it's about, and of course that's what Speaker 2: gets people reading it. Speaker 2: And then they find out that a lot of what Speaker 2: you got to do to to extract that wealth is Speaker 2: you got to do it. Speaker 2: That's not a way to put it. Speaker 2: They're human beings. Speaker 2: You care about them sincerely, and if Speaker 2: you're familiar with net, promoters score. Speaker 2: Yes, fred Rykel, I know Fred he's. Speaker 2: He's key noted at my, at my events, we've Speaker 2: had him on a couple of one so far webinar. Speaker 2: He's got a new book out and he and he has. Speaker 2: He has not a religious guy, he's not a Speaker 2: pretty particularly a woo woo guy at all, Speaker 2: he's a very. Speaker 2: He's a pain, a bang consultant and founder Speaker 2: and all this stuff. Speaker 2: But he has come to the conclusion that the Speaker 2: way to win in business is to love L O V E. Speaker 2: Coming from this consultant, he's not Speaker 2: religious, as I said, not religious, but Speaker 2: that's what he's come to. Speaker 2: You love him, that's how you win. Speaker 2: And then he's got cases that are amazed on Speaker 2: this, wow, and not to. Speaker 2: It's not just about one or two companies or Speaker 2: a handful of customers that do this and Speaker 2: that and they really do love their Speaker 2: customers. Speaker 2: Like Nike does this, apple has done this Speaker 2: historically, tesla, before Elon Musk Sort Speaker 2: of went crazy and in the early days he, he, Speaker 2: he had mastered this. Speaker 2: That's how, anyway, he's an interesting Speaker 2: story. Speaker 2: But T mobile and so forth and so on. Speaker 2: He's taken these industries where they do Speaker 2: net promoter score correctly, which is Speaker 2: equivalent to you love your customers and Speaker 2: you and you hire people that love your Speaker 2: customers. Speaker 2: And he's taking these industries telecom, Speaker 2: computers, you know, autos, automobiles, so Speaker 2: forth. Speaker 2: He's taking all these industries and Speaker 2: compared their growth over the last. Speaker 2: He's got data going back long enough to do Speaker 2: this, but going back 10 years and look at Speaker 2: their stock appreciation. Speaker 2: That's what the boards, that's what the Speaker 2: investors are looking at, right. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: And the in the growth of these customer, of Speaker 2: these industries, I'm sorry, of these of Speaker 2: these companies within their industries, is Speaker 2: extraordinary. Speaker 2: Much more than than the SMP, which is kind Speaker 2: of the standard for the stock market. Speaker 2: It's like I think it's five X something Speaker 2: dramatically higher. Speaker 2: And then if you, if you know Jim Collins, Speaker 2: who has all these great books, good to Speaker 2: grade and so forth, when they look at his Speaker 2: customers and good to great, I believe was Speaker 2: and look at their 10 year, you know the top Speaker 2: 10 of the top 13 or whatever that number Speaker 2: was, the growth of those companies in the Speaker 2: following 10 years, white, the ones that Speaker 2: have become great, flatlining, very poor. Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know Collins is a smart Speaker 2: guy but he based the definition of what Speaker 2: made them great based on their previous Speaker 2: financial success, not how the customer, Speaker 2: the customer, the attachment and the Speaker 2: loyalty of their customers, like Fred does. Speaker 2: So pretty powerful, pretty powerful. Speaker 1: So you're working with him on that, or like Speaker 1: what are you guys all? Speaker 1: What are you working on with this net Speaker 1: promoter? Speaker 2: Well, we had something we we run across all Speaker 2: the time. Speaker 2: We found them. Speaker 2: For example, one of the first things I did Speaker 2: with the client was I had a client and they Speaker 2: were having trouble finding references. Speaker 2: This is this is probably 20, 20 years ago. Speaker 2: They didn't. Speaker 2: They, you know, they didn't have a, they Speaker 2: weren't getting references and the Speaker 2: salespeople were complaining it's like the Speaker 2: references are wasted time, don't even send Speaker 2: me. Speaker 2: So they got a new, a new VP Colleen Kaiser Speaker 2: was her name, super smart person and so she Speaker 2: came in and took it over and she, she, so Speaker 2: she looked at the net promoter scores and Speaker 2: the the promoters were not being invited to Speaker 2: reference. Speaker 2: Of course, the. Speaker 2: The question that you asked, the one Speaker 2: question survey, is how likely would you be Speaker 2: to to, to refer or to recommend this, this Speaker 2: product, this product or this company? Speaker 2: That's the question, one question on a Speaker 2: scale of zero to 10. Speaker 2: And they weren't so. Speaker 2: So there were a lot of. Speaker 2: They can't find references, but they have a Speaker 2: substantial number of customers that said Speaker 2: they would be likely to be a promoter to Speaker 2: refer you. Speaker 2: So here's the genius thing she did she just Speaker 2: took those ones that answered nine and 10 Speaker 2: that they'd be highly likely, and she Speaker 2: starts putting them all for into the Speaker 2: reference program, which I'm sure yeah, I'm Speaker 2: happy to do that, no resistance, and within Speaker 2: a few couple of months the salespeople Speaker 2: rated that you know this, this, this, this Speaker 2: reference program went from like this, you Speaker 2: know, to like this, like essential or Speaker 2: important to the sales and to their sales Speaker 2: process. Speaker 1: So that's fascinating. Speaker 2: Yeah, so where was I going with that? Speaker 2: Anyway, that's, that's well, I was hoping Speaker 2: that I was going to, I'm trying to, I'm Speaker 2: trying to promote you. Speaker 1: So, speaking of not a promoter. Speaker 1: I want to promote you, so what's your Speaker 1: website address and how do we get your Speaker 1: books? Speaker 2: Okay, my website is the easy way to find it. Speaker 2: It's a Center for Customer Engagement. Speaker 2: But you don't have to type all that out, Speaker 2: you can just. Speaker 2: You can just look up C, letter C, the Speaker 2: number four, c, ecom. Speaker 2: And then my books the hidden wealth of Speaker 2: customers, I believe, is still on Amazon. Speaker 2: It was published in 2012. Speaker 2: And the interesting thing about that book Speaker 2: is is ahead of its time. Speaker 2: Most people's, most companies, aren't doing Speaker 2: this still, but more and more are starting Speaker 2: to do so, so it's kind of getting a little Speaker 2: bit of a second life or something. Speaker 2: And then another company, another Harvard Speaker 2: Business Review. Speaker 2: There's also several articles. Speaker 2: If you don't want to buy it into a whole Speaker 2: book, I've got several HBR articles on on Speaker 2: customers and so forth. Speaker 2: And then the other one is the fabrics in Speaker 2: the workplace. Speaker 2: It was about employees and the themes there, Speaker 2: and this was a a. Speaker 2: A university press published it. Speaker 2: That sounds a little intimidating. Speaker 2: It's like 200 pages and it's an easy read, Speaker 2: but it's about employees they need. Speaker 2: If you want to, if you want a great company, Speaker 2: you've got to have customers that love you Speaker 2: and will refer you, and to have those, Speaker 2: you've got to have employees that find Speaker 2: meaning in their work, and that's kind of Speaker 2: what that's about. Speaker 1: That's awesome. Speaker 1: So you look at it from a couple different Speaker 1: angles. Speaker 1: I love that and I love all the other Speaker 1: references, and even bringing back to the Speaker 1: nut promoter, which is going back to the Speaker 1: theme of this particular episode, just want Speaker 1: to, I just want to summarize some of the Speaker 1: stuff that you said for my specific Speaker 1: audience. Speaker 1: You know who do want to grow their Speaker 1: consulting and coaching businesses and they Speaker 1: want to get more clients and get more Speaker 1: referrals. Speaker 1: It sounds like, based on if I were going to Speaker 1: apply your advice, you know, one based on Speaker 1: your journey and your own personal example Speaker 1: is really let that desire to see that unmet Speaker 1: need in the marketplace be the person to go Speaker 1: fill it, lead with that and see that Speaker 1: opportunity Seems like. Speaker 1: The second thing would also be, when you Speaker 1: are working with your clients, like, really Speaker 1: start with them. Speaker 1: You know what's their pain points, what's Speaker 1: their needs. Speaker 1: Don't push on what you want to communicate Speaker 1: to them. Speaker 1: Listen to them Sounds like even from a Speaker 1: marketing standpoint, you know. Speaker 1: Make sure that you feature the journey, the Speaker 1: heroic transformation journey that your Speaker 1: clients are experiencing, rather than get Speaker 1: caught up in all the mundane of the. Speaker 1: You know, this is this. Speaker 1: This is what I do, this is my methodology Speaker 1: and all of that kind of stuff, really talk Speaker 1: about it in that bigger picture. Speaker 1: And then it seems like when you're doing Speaker 1: client work, be very paid, be very Speaker 1: cognizant over making sure that you're Speaker 1: doing what you need to do so that at the Speaker 1: end of your consulting or coaching Speaker 1: engagement your clients are going to rate Speaker 1: you from a net promoter standpoint is will Speaker 1: you repeat and recommend, even just ask Speaker 1: them that question at the end of your Speaker 1: engagement? Speaker 1: And those who rated an eight or nine, you Speaker 1: know, ask them directly. Speaker 1: Can you give me a testimonial? Speaker 1: Can you give me a case study? Speaker 1: And then it sounds also like using using Speaker 1: their transformation story to almost Speaker 1: inspire your future clients into what's Speaker 1: possible for them. Speaker 2: That seems like the application to my it Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 2: That's what inspires them to make your Speaker 2: story. Speaker 2: It's it's other customers. Speaker 2: That's absolutely. Speaker 2: That's very good. Speaker 2: Is there anything else? Speaker 1: that you'd want to tell my audience of Speaker 1: consultants and coaches about what they can Speaker 1: do to create a client centric practice and Speaker 1: how they can ignite client centric or Speaker 1: customer centric organizations, and I'm Speaker 1: just not asking you the right question. Speaker 2: I just want to say that I would, that I Speaker 2: would reiterate. Speaker 2: Reiterate is get in touch with your Speaker 2: superpower. Speaker 1: That's right. Speaker 2: Get in touch with it. Speaker 2: It all starts with your superpower, I think, Speaker 2: and then and then everything, everything Speaker 2: you said there Great, that's a great, Speaker 2: that's a great summary of what I'm talking Speaker 2: about here, and that's fun for me, because Speaker 2: that is what I love to do is my superpowers, Speaker 2: helping people figure out their superpowers. Speaker 1: So if you want to, work on developing, Speaker 1: figuring out your superpowers and packaging Speaker 1: it. Speaker 1: Definitely check out my website. Speaker 1: I cannot thank you enough, bill, for being Speaker 1: on the show. Speaker 1: This has been an amazing conversation and, Speaker 1: for those of you're listening, I've got Speaker 1: lots more people who are as amazing as bill Speaker 1: scheduled to be on the show, so be sure to Speaker 1: hit subscribe wherever you're listening and Speaker 1: until next time, just you know. Speaker 1: Thank you again for listening and remember Speaker 1: to be you and all you do, because you are Speaker 1: enough already, so we'll see you next time. Speaker 2: Well put. Speaker 2: Thanks, betsy. Speaker 1: Thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in. Speaker 1: If today's episode lit a fire on you, Speaker 1: please rate and review. Speaker 1: Enough already on Apple podcasts or Speaker 1: subscribe wherever you listen, and if Speaker 1: you're looking for your next step, visit me Speaker 1: on my website at Betsy Jordancom and it's Speaker 1: Betsy Jordan with aY, and you'll learn all Speaker 1: about our end to end services that are Speaker 1: custom designed to accelerate your success. Speaker 1: Don't wait Start today.