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to discuss the veterans Readiness and Employment Program or VR but before I get started I would like to take a moment of uh just to thank you so much Kate for helping me get through these things as a rookie dude and she's still going to be with the Via committee obviously but she's going to be kind of more of a broad General counselor for everybody right so I I really want to applaud you um you're in consument professional and you are the reason that this subcommittee and this committee is I think the most functional Committee in the entire House of Representatives so thank you very [Applause] much okay now it's time to be mean that was a joke sorry the Mike thought it was funny um the purpose of this program is to assist veterans and service members who have service connected disabilities with on the job training and skills in need in order to obtain meaningful employment or achieve maximum Independent Living when this program is appropriately administered vr& is more than just a benefits program it's also a vital first step for disabled veterans to become more financially independent give back to their community and achieve their own American dream and to my knowledge I believe I'm the only member of Congress that has actually utilized this program and so I know it inside and out from Soup To Nuts um however there we are at a Crossroads and I believe right now that uh vr& program is going in the wrong dire Direction since 2015 Republicans on the subcommittee have been concerned about vr's previous IT failures that have cost the government millions of dollars other it failures in VA have cost taxpayers billions and we cannot let vr& be the latest IT project to become one of these failures I recognize that vr's latest IT project the Readiness employment system or R was launched as a pilot a few months ago and early reports showed that the program has been received received well this is encouraging news but the IG said in our last hearing that the VA has a track record of difficulty implementing major it systems they almost without fail take longer and they take replans I know the VA states that they are finally on the right path with this new case management system however I'm skeptical as this undertakes this undertaking will now span the term of four administrations just want to say that again this this project is is spanning four administrations and it's not done yet it's very frustrating and a disservice to our veterans and VA employees who have badly needed this it system for nearly a decade I expect to hear today about va's rest program excuse me progress and who will be held accountable if this it update fails yet again I'd also like to hear from the VA about Data Tracking performance and checks and balances in V the Pack Attack has led to an amazing increase in participations or participants of uh increase of nearly 30% and however now we're seeing increased weight times and an increased burden on counselors and higher case loads there has to be a better balance of priorities in the program to make sure a veteran gets what they need while also ensuring that the VA is responsible are responsible stewards of taxpayers and vment responsibility that I find VA has a profound and consistent inability to perform we've heard from one school that has been one school that a veteran has been attending classes for over a decade and at the cost of over $700,000 for a single veteran and it's a direct result of counselors getting waivers for the VR recipients well over 99% of the time so this person consistently just got waiver after waiver after waiver after waiver for a total of over $700,000 and to my knowledge uh they don't have a degree yet do they yeah the the cost for a medical school just to put this in context is about $355,000 to become a physician throwing that out there uh in fact the VA told us last month we had a meeting yesterday that since the fiscal year 2020 there's been 39,95 extensions that were approved and only 59 of the request for extensions were denied and that that is truly absurd it's statistically impossible that all of those uh EXT itions were appropriate I'm looking forward to hearing from the VA about the real life examples their constituents uh their that constitute granting a waiver on paper bureaucrats may just be completing a check in the boox exercise instead of completing a thoughtful review of each case additionally we've heard numerous concerns about long time wait long time wait time excuse me 65% of Regional Offices take over a month for a veteran to meet with the counselor for an initial evaluation and my friend and ranking member regional office in San Diego the average is 158 days for a veteran to meet a counselor for an initial evaluation and again that is just absurd a month is too long but making a veteran put their life on hold for nearly half a year before even being seen by a counselor is ridiculous it has a negative effect on their lives it has a negative effect on our society it has a negative effect on the VA and I know the VA is going to say that R will fix the backlog but it's time to stop putting the blame on failed it projects and start looking for answers rather than throwing more money at the problem if these problems exist VNA they're going to become a crisis again in the future VA because it is estimated that there will be a 61% increase in veterans receiving monetary benefits from 2023 to 2026 and finally I want to hear from the VA the steps that they're planning on taking to improve the vet success on campus or vsock program and how my bill HR 8648 modernizing the veteran on campus campus experience Act of 2024 would continue to make more improvements with that I now yield to the ranking member for his opening remarks thank the chairman I want to thank him for holding this hearing and want to thank him for the last two years of great partnership working together uh trying to serve our veterans as best we can and we've gotten a lot done and there's so much more uh to do and and I think you know today's hearing will will uncover just one of the programs that needs a lot of work and I share many of the Chairman's concerns uh about vr& I want to emphasize also its continued importance uh it's so critically important that we aim to prepare prepare veterans with service connected disabilities for Life After military service uh vr& provides essential services to service members and Veterans who are unable to find or maintain employment due to service connected disabilities it offers job training variety of employment related support to help them secure a job assist veterans in achieving maximum Independence in their daily lives when the severity of their disabilities prevents them from working and in fiscal year 2023 the program served over 131,000 service members and Veterans and paid out $1.6 billion in benefits the r& benefits are administer administered at Regional Offices across the country program has counselors located at colleges and universities to assist veterans during their transition to civilian life and counselors located at 70 military installations to assist transitioning service members so I'm very glad we're holding this hearing today so one of va's oldest and most impactful programs but my uh experience over the six years I've been in Congress is it never really has received the attention that it's deserved in fact since I joined the committee I've noticed several issues that have impacted the program one of the very first hearings that I held as chairman of the subcommittee in 2019 was to find out why participation in VRE was so low and things have really changed in six years we're now hearing underst Staffing is the problem and in my district as the chairman said we've heard that veterans have to wait for approximately 15 to 18 months for an initial appointment that is simply unacceptable that is simply unacceptable 15 to 18 months we can't expect service members and Veterans to put their lives on hold for nearly a year and a half to wait for an appointment in addition VR still has not developed and implemented modernization efforts for digital case management Ag Systems despite two previously failed attempts so I look forward to an update on the status of the case management system and its development I know the program has been working to modernize v& uh reduce the administrative burden on counselors I would be remiss if I didn't raise concerns we're also hearing from Veterans School certifying officials or seos and our vsos some of whom I see in the back veterans and seos both Express concerns with consistent communication and regular contact with vr& counselors vsos have also raised concerns about unrealistic deadlines for veterans to select an employment goal which could lead to the closure of a veteran's case when a veteran is found entitled to vr& they start collaborating with their counselor to determine the essential Services needed for success in the program rushing through the initial process isn't going to produce a positive outcome last Congress I led legislation that was signed in a law that expanded access to self-employment opportunities through vr& this expansion was intended to support Veterans as they started their own small businesses so I'm eager to learn about the program's efforts in Recruitment and Retention as well as the expansion of hiring criteria to attract more counselors I also look forward to hearing from our Witnesses on the challenges in both hiring and retaining of staff for example we heard from a veteran who experienced three changes in counselors in one year three changes in counselors in one year we got to do better than that V is unique because it offers support that's tailored to each Veteran's unique needs however I have concerns about insufficient Staffing and the quality and consistency of the services being provided I'm sure the chairman would agree every veteran who faces long wait times to access v& might end up abandoning the program missing out on the benefits they've earned it only further deters veterans from considering the program so look the VR program I continue to believe is vital in honoring the sacrifices of veterans by providing them with the tools and the opportunities to lead fulfilling lives but we've got to do better than we're doing thank you and I'll yield back thank you reing member L I'll now introduce our witness panel our first witness is Mr Nick pamper and Executive Director of Veterans Readiness and employment at the veterans benefits Administration Mr pamper is accompanied by Mr kenth Smith assistant Deputy under secretary operations management team and the veterans benef at the veterans benefit Administration I'll ask the witnesses please to stand and raise your right hand do you swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you let the record reflected the witnesses have answered in the affirmative Mr pamper you're now recognized for five minutes to deliver your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs good morning chairman van Orton ranking member 11 and member of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to discuss the Department of Veterans Affairs veteran Readiness and employment program today I'm accompanied today by Mr Ken Smith assistant Deputy under secretary for operations the mission of vr& is to assist those who have a service connected disability and an employment barrier prepare for find and maintain suitable employment or live independently the vr& program is a vital benefit helping veterans and service members explore employment opportunities find new skills um um or address educational or training needs this can be at learning new skills through traditional schooling finding a new job returning to an old employer starting a business or getting educational counseling due to increased Outreach and the expansion of pack act benefits vne has seen tremendous growth in program applicants over 44% since the implementation of the pack act at the beginning of FY 24 vr& had approximately 134,000 active particip which grew to over 174,000 by the end of the fiscal year VR provided support to over 297,000 veterans and service members and paid out over 2.1 billion in benefits last fiscal year v& also assisted over 177,000 individuals successfully obtain employment or improve their independence and living while the VR program has experienced significant growth excuse me field staff continue to perform their at at high levels in fiscal year 24 17,120 positive outcomes were achieved exceeding the goals field staff additionally have demonstrated sound fiscal judgment with their use of taxpayer dollars achieving a 95.8% fiscal accuracy score in FY 24 additionally 99% of VR payments are made in less than 30 days due to the implementation of the invoice Payment Processing system to improve service to Veterans and efficiencies within the VR program VR set out on a path for f for the future by introducing the Sixpoint plan the Sixpoint plan was designed to promote continuous Improvement in Service delivery streamlined internal processing and leverag Technology as part of this plan vr& expanded the educational requirements for who can serve as a vocational rehabilitation counselor or a VRC to accept an additional five master's degrees this change has allowed vne to fill critical positions with qualified applicants with all all expanded degrees being recognized by the credentialing body for rehabilitative counseling the commission on rehabilitative counseling certification VR also added a new position to the field the vocational rehabilitation specialist or vrs whose duties include performing routine tasks and basic but critical case management duties the addition of this position has freed up counselors allowing them to spend additional time with veterans in FY 23 and 24 VR increased staff by 24% adding 483 field staff in the last two fiscal years years 372 FTE last year alone while this expansion and the addition of the increased staffing has helped VA respond to the dramatic program growth we continue to need additional resources to be compliant with the legislative 1 to 1225 requirement in terms of approving processes through technological modernization VR has completed its modernization of the electronic virtual assistant platform this three-phase effort deployed electronic signature capability for veterans and counselors reducing time takes to receive re signed documents from 10 days to just two and also eliminated over 40,000 hours of administrative burden of Staff by integrating with the veterans benefits management system efolder vne is working diligently to develop and deploy a new case management system the Readiness employment system or Rees through stti strict governance of the project in October 24 vne launched Rees at four pilot locations New York Little Rock Mogi and Reno the deployment of Rees in October has stayed on schedule and done so under budget through integration and automation as of October 19th 2024 over 1,000 hours of manual data entry previously computed by all field staff at all Regional Offices has been eliminated further reducing administrative burden vne is committed to improving the services we deliver to Veterans improving internal operations and promoting efficiency Mr chairman as VA continues to modernize and improve the vr& program we look forward to working with Congress to address veterans concerns and appreciate the support of the subcommittee this concludes my testimony my colleague and I welcome any questions you or other members of the subcommittee may have thank you Mr pamper the written statement of Mr panon will be entered into the hearing record we're now going to proceed to questionings and I ask the members uh to uh strictly adhere to the F minute rule I'm going to recognize ranking member 11 for five minutes thank you any questions he may have thank you Mr chairman uh Mr pamper and committee staff has received feedback from veterans veteran service organizations School certifying officials regarding the backlogs that veterans face when accessing Services approximately 15,000 service members transition at a Camp Pendleton in my district each year and I'm deeply concerned to be hearing about significant backlogs at the San Diego VR office as I mentioned in my opening statement in my district we've heard that veterans have to wait for approximately 15 to 18 months for an initial appointment my sta reached out to your office to get updated wait times for veterans at the San Diego VR office back in September and we haven't heard back do you have updated weight times you can share with us now and if not can you commit to sending that information to my staff as soon as possible uh thank you for the question um one I will certainly be looking into the RFI that you submitted in in September uh to understand find I will find out why a response hasn't been submitted will you provide answers to questions currently the by when Mr pampering I I can give you the San Diego weight time right now um the current San Diego average weight time is 155 days which is still well above the 60-day target do you think that's acceptable 155 day wait time I do not what are you going to do about it so we've undertaken a number of things uh at the national level and I will ask Mr Smith as well as from the local level one of the things that we've done is San Diego has uh a unique struggle of a large growing case load and a difficulty in recruiting staff these are very limited positions that we're able to hire so one of the things that we've done is we've uh We've deployed what we call partner stations and added additional staff to the Albuquerque regional office the Boise regional office offices relatively close to to the Southern California area where they have an ability to hire uh and keep staff and those individuals at those partnering stages are dedicated to support nothing but the San Diego and Southern California region um not all of those positions have been filled yet um but with the expansion of the degrees we've seen dramatic growth in the ability to recruit folks so if you take those steps does that lead to those weight times being brought down to the 60-day Target I think there's there there's more than just that there's also internal processes uh that can be streamlined to make things more efficient um but so I think it's a combination of people technology uh and process that will drive those weight times down so by when can you get people technology and process in order to hit your 60-day target it would be speculation at this point and I would have to get back to you well speculation is better than 155 day wait time I want to know what I should tell my veterans who are ready to give up on the program because of 15 18 month weights to get an initial appointment as far as getting it down to under 60 days honestly sir I I'm not sure I'd want to give you a a number uh and and either not hit it or give you a ridiculous number that's that's not acceptable can you I'd like to be able to take that one back and get back to you sir uh I suggest you do and I suggest that you share with anybody you have to that 155 days is unacceptable and is leading to veterans in San Diego who are giving up on vr& wouldn't you if you were a veteran you had to wait 15 to 18 months that's not serving our veterans as well as they've served us so what I'd like number one is the next time our staff reaches out or the chairman staff reaches out or any member staff reaches out don't just blow us off give us an answer so I don't have to do this in a public setting it's not my intent to embarrass you sir it's my intent to get answers for the veterans in my district and Community number two is I would like a road map not just I'll get back to you but I would like a specific road map about the people the technology the process whatever it is that needs to happen because when we pass the pact act a lot of this could and should have been anticipated by Folks at VA we knew there would be an uptick in these programs it's a success that there's an uptick in these programs but your inability to prepare for this outcome gives me great cause or great great concern and and and great uh uh caution uh that uh things are going to change so I I'm looking for a road map that I can share with our local community and our local V vsos who are very concerned as are our national vsos that Mr chairman I'll yield back thank you ranking member 11 I now recognize my very good friend Mr mvan from the great state of Indiana uh Staffing in the VRE program appears to be an ongoing issue in the program and one reasons we understand that you expanded the hiring requirements for counselors Mr pamperin uh when did you announce the change in hiring requirements for counselors uh we announced the change last fiscal year and implemented those five additional degrees so I guess one of the questions is you're faced with a great challenge of a delay of 155 days you have is it VCRs vrcs vrc's I'm sorry I just did the 1980s uh vrc's uh who have a master's program and then you have normal social workers and if I read correctly it is that the uh vrc's are the only ones and because of that shortage that they are uh the only ones to make the decisions for entitlements correct entitlement decisions correct sir a VRC has to make an entitlement decision um but a individual with a masters in in social work as you as you noted that is one of the degrees that we expanded to um that can qualify um the additional position of the vrs the voke rehab specialist that position cannot make entitlement decisions tell me why uh because they do not have the affirmative education requirement that is necessary can they be trained in order to do that because if you're having a difficult time filling those positions can those individuals that have the education to do that train the individuals with the Social Work degree because that's what other Industries are doing in shortages to be able to fulfill the obligation of getting people through quicker in the current construct vrs the voke rehab Specialists are not allowed to it does require to make a decision for entitlement for for the benefit to be at that Master's educated uh level required by whom the VA with their own guidelines I believe it's in regulation um can you find that out absolutely thank you chairman it's the first time I got cheered on by my chairman I didn't intend to do that okay my my intentions are to be able to find a solution um now going towards the the software analysis of the three attempts uh pasted two years ago was chairman of technology modernization for the subcommittee and uh had experience with the electronic medical records can you just can someone articulate why the challenges of the software is an ongoing issue and what are the solutions sure uh for the previous two efforts um there were a number of challenges uh that I would I would tend um lack of clear requirements um contract vehicles um I think what makes this effort different is we spent 10 months and I know that seems like a long time but to do our due diligence to really understand what went wrong uh in the initial uh we put together an entire project team between U the VR staff and so small time limit for me what did go wrong uh I think in both of those efforts I think the requirements would not have been able to deliver a case management system so within the case management system was it the training process or was it the software itself uh in in the first instance sir it it was the software um in the second instance um I I think it was a it was a combination of the platform and and the individuals uh you know the requirement ments that were built or lack thereof was there resistance to the change from the current system we have not encountered any resistance at any of the four pilot sites we have launched a number of virtual Road shows where we've demonstrated it and gotten overwhelmingly positive support um you know this is a system as the chairman pointed out that was promised years ago and should have been delivered years ago um the field wants it and the field needs it okay so is it the providers I guess if you had to pinpoint the changing agent what would you pinpoint would be something that has to change in order to operate to its full function and what you're trying to accomplish uh training uh and acceptance to the change which is why we've created a dedicated staff for the Rees team to include a change agent but that was my original question was there resistance to the change and and as of right now at none of the pilot sites has there been resistance okay um I'm talking from a basic change management strategy sir the things that we know have to be done to make sure that folks are fully trained and capable of running it which is keeping them informed keeping them trained and up to date on the progress of the RS platform so a lot of vague references this is my last question when this software was implemented what what was the cause that you said this isn't operating correct correctly what was the red flag that popped up for you is it part of the obviously it's part of the reason for the 155 delay but what was the red flag that said we cannot continue on this path sir I I I wasn't in this position for either of the two iterations um for the second iteration uh again I wasn't here for that but there was there was a lack of confidence in the ability to make a payment and an accurate payment and obviously if you're not doing that the system is not working and we cannot not pay an accurate rate to a veteran and I believe that uh as well as delays uh were the two overriding factors that the organization made for discontinuing that previous effort we have not encountered those issues with Rees to date okay I thank you very much appreciate it yes sir the gentleman yields back I now recognize my friend from the great state of Kentucky Mr uh McGarvey thank you Mr chairman and with all of the questions asked by my colleagues up here I just want to start with a really simple question who's in charge of this program uh I am the executive director of the program sir I'm in charge of it then why don't you have answers for how to fix it sir I think we do and that's part of our six-point plan that is leading into our our strategic road map it's there's not just one answer um we could put more bodies in there but folks counselors in the field are still doing manual math manual data entry um we've got too many forms and complicated processes as we've been going through Rees development and even prior to that we've gone through the elimination of forms so it's it is it's not just one simple answer it's a combination of we need a whole lot of things to be fixed in the people process in technology space it's not one simple answer but it seems to be an ongoing problem and it's not a problem that developed last week uh and you've known about these problems right you heard Mr Levan talk about the fact that there are veterans in San Diego who are waiting 15 to 18 months to hear back uh which is completely unacceptable but this is in line we have a letter here from the student Veterans of America uh they did a survey in which they show that nearly half of the respondents 48% reported meeting with their their VRC their counselor their veteran resource counselor within 1 to 3 months of entering the program however almost 20% waited 4 to six months or longer 20% Which of course we can guess what that means um and then of course it said that 38% reported that their counselor was rarely or never available and only one in four 25% of the people using this program are saying that they can always get a hold of the people they need to to access these benefits I just remind you of who we're serving we are not just serving our veterans we are serving our veterans who have a service related disability these are our men and women who were willing to put on a uniform to sacrifice everything for us and in some cases sacrificed a great deal and this program which you know we have a letter here from the VFW they say I mean The Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Program is incredibly successful vr& uh has been described by veterans as a lifechanging opportunity that puts them on the path for success but then even the VFW immediate follows that sentence by saying however many informed the VFW they did not receive sufficient guidance to navigate this process they complain about the amount of time it takes for our veterans to get these benefits that they have earned and what at the holidays right now you mentioned that weight times in San Diego 155 days if I told you that you could go on Amazon right now to get a holiday present for somebody but the shipping time was 155 days would you do it no sir okay what happens when these veterans can't get these benefits in a timely manner when they are waiting four to six months or longer 155 days it makes them less likely and this is shown in the studies this is shown in the surveys we have in front of us it makes them less likely to access these benefits to get not what just what they want example I gave you was a want what they need and what they want is Meaningful employment after the service and so we want to help you guys out but it seems like we're always getting people up here who are saying we'll get back to you we'll look into that we'll take care of that there's a six-point plan but we have we have data that says veterans haven't been accessing their benefits for 15 to 18 months when is that going to get better sir even in the instance of of San Diego um with the addition of the partner stations we've seen those numbers already start to go down um again the weight times are are unacceptable um and I do actually I do believe uh which is the reason I I wanted to run this program that it is the gold standard it does change veterans lives um it has previously been underutilized and we are seeing the exact oppos opposite um since 2001 we've seen an 82.5% increase in our applications that just was never predicted while we predicted pack act growth you base it on historical Trends we've never seen growth like this we've never seen levels of our participation like this um we absolutely need to get better and I think the the Sixpoint plan that we've implemented uh and implemented half of it thus far and our strategic Road mapap are going to get us to where we need to be and and I see my time is running out we want to help you with that I mean I know that we do share the same goals and I appreciate you coming in front of the committee today we we do share those goals and we want to make sure that the councilors and veterans are not just relying slowly on some of the technology that we have more counselors uh that we have measures in place to ensure that veterans have that access to the essential one-on-one counseling that we get this right um so Mr chairman I'll yield back to you but obviously this is something we've we we definitely want to work with you guys on to make sure our veterans get that incredibly important timely access to these benefits that they've earned thank you thank you Mr M the gentleman yields back um I now recognize myself for five minutes I think my colleagues did a very good job of pointing out the unacceptable nature of the weight times right um you're doing four pilot programs right now what's the average weight time at those four pilot programs give me one second I can give you the answer is 34.5 days and Mr paner I'm just going to say this okay Mr McGarvey app to point out you know you're in charge right if you're coming up here tting this program which is allegedly training in the correct uh direction that should have been on the tip of your tongue okay so we're here because of the abject failure the consistent abject failure of the Veterans Affairs Administration to be able to uh put together it projects and run them it's historically accurate statement so I'm there's all these other things we can talk about money and stuff but I want to talk about some philosophical things here because Mr Mr McGarvey came over to my office this morning we talked for about a half an hour or so and it was about you know what's the difference the problem at the Veterans Affairs Administration I've been chairing the subcommittee for two years now and we made a joke the other day in the office that that I could I could change the title of my binder and I could change the date and I'd hardly have to change any of the content because you guys are coming up here consistently saying the same stuff I'll get back to you I don't know things are working we need more more money we need more people my bad and nothing is going to change at the Veterans Affairs Administration until we change the people at the Veterans Affairs Administration so are you guys political appoes no sir we not are you schedule F employees no sir no are you aware of any any negative feedback mechanism at the Veterans Affairs administ rtion for instance this program goes on and on and on and on and on and the people that were responsible for writing the contracts and the people that are responsible for approving those contracts have they been fired sir I I you don't know we don't know who they are do we were they censored we don't know did they get a harshly worded email or potentially a disparaging remark cast at them in passing in a hallway we're talking about billions and billions of dollars that is being fraudulently and I'm going to use the word again corruption there's corruption in the VA and until that goes away none of this is going to change none of it so I told you yesterday and I want to say it publicly I'm putting everybody at the Veterans Affairs Administration on notice I can't tell you I'm going to fire you all that stuff you know it's it's an executive branch thing I can't do that that's not what I'm saying this is what I'm saying there's a new sheriff in town and you guys are going to start being held directly personally accountable if anybody that's going to occupy with this new Administration the White House if anybody if they actually care about what they're doing and I I know for certain that they do I suggest that there's a lot of people at the VA that better start reviewing their resume and that gives me no pleasure to say that at all but I am so sick and damn tired of asking the same questions to the same people and getting the same answers because every single dollar that you guys throw into a fireplace is a dollar that cannot be applied to giving our veterans the benefits that they earned and I don't even have a question for you guys I'm just honest to goodness across the board I am disgusted I don't know what to say I really don't uh ranking member 11 had to step out to a another committee for a commitment and so in his stad Mr mirvan I would like to recognize you for any closing statements you may have it's good on a closing statement I don't I don't have a closing statement then I'll ultimately uh the message here is we have to change things there were some simple things that I was able to identify that I just want to use this time to make sure you acknowledge also the simple fact that there's no prompt on the on the 1 1800 number for the VA to be able to get to your office something that's concerning um you would think that we could change that and that would be immediately um ultimately as I mentioned hiring individuals that could fulfill the obligation of the goals of making sure people rece the our veterans receive the entitlements is something that is a priority getting the software in place uh in closing just want to make sure that you understand the severity of where we are and the action that is needed to be taken with urgency in order to get to where we need to do to cut to be to cut down those weight times with that uh action must be taken and I thank you very much the general yields back I'm going to make one suggestion before uh I dismiss this panel you're doing four Pilots I recommend that you you start a fifth one and it's in San Diego I mean when you recognize the greatest the spot with the the most egregious example of this ineptitude like I was in Navy Seal for a while I'd go straight to the biggest problem and solve that one so that's just a recommendation obviously you guys can do what you want because you've been doing what you want regardless of what we've been saying to you for at least the two years I've been in Congress you people are dismissed I'd like to have the second panel up here please e e on our second panel we're going to hear from from the following Witnesses Miss Julie Howell associate legislative director for government relations that paralyze Veterans of America and Mr Keith glendan president of National Association of veterans program administrators um would you please stand and raise your right hand hands uh do you solemly swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you and let the record reflect you may be seated thank you let the record could reflect that all Witnesses have answered in the affirmative now I'm just going to say something these these committee hearings can be pretty intimidating and I understand that and you can be nervous and stuff but I do want you to know and you know Morgan said it earlier we really want um everybody here we want the VA to succeed we want you to succeed so if that helps put your mind to these please please know that you this is a friendly audience ma'am so I'd like to now recognize Miss how for 5 minutes to deliver her testimony chairman van oron ranking member 11 ran forgive me uh and members of the subcommittee Paralyzed Veterans of America appreciates this opportunity to discuss the effectiveness of the veteran Readiness and Employment Program or vr& vr& assists disabled veterans in finding meaningful and Lasting employment despite incurring disabilities as a result of their military service the services and supports available to Veterans with catastrophic Ric disabilities are critical in ensuring successful employment outcomes prior to the passage of the Americans with Disability Act in 1990 widespread protections and federal law prohibiting disability-based employment discrimination did not exist this means that just over a generation ago disabled veterans lacked Federal protections and guarantees that are available today despite these protections barriers to employment still exists for disabled veterans this is one of the many reasons why vr& is such an important program historically the common perception was that vr& should be the crown jewel of employment programs however it was underutilized I'm pleased to say that word is gotten out as eviden by the rec as evidenced by the record number of applications vr& has seen in the past few years with enrollment number sitting around 170,000 it's clear that disabled veterans are aware of the vr& program and are eager to engage with those dedicated staff and counselors available to them for the sake of my time I'll Focus my comments on vrn program Improvement areas that Congress and VA should prioritize the first suggestion PVA has is to remove the 12-year delimitating date for VR eligibility doing so would eliminate the subjectivity in determining whether a veteran has an employment handicap or a serious employment handicap reducing the number of veterans who might be denied access due to an arbitrary date research shows that service connected disabilities exacerbate over time and the eliminating date is an unnecessary barrier for disabled veterans who are Str struggling to find suitable employment due to their service connected disabilities our next recommendation is to reduce the minimum education requirements for veteran success on campus or vso counselors currently a vso counselor has the same education requirements and job description as a traditional Vocational Rehabilitation counselor or a VRC which requires a master's degree in Vocational Rehabilitation Counseling or similar degrees PVA recommends that Congress pass HR 8646 the modern ing veteran oncampus experience Act of 2024 which reduces this education requirement PV the change May encourage vso counselors to return to the traditional role of a VRC should they decide to um filling possible vacancies with already trained vrc's conversely such a change could also be an employment pipeline for newly hired vsocks who wish to become vrc's in the future it could also create a new federal employment opportunity for student veterans who have recently graduated to serve as vsx many veterans who use vr& see intrinsic value in helping veterans achieve their goals we should lean in on this opportunity to increase the number of veterans helping veterans however if the education requirements are reduced pbaa suggests removal of the language in the amended Bill authorizing vsx to carry a case load of 25 individuals complex cases should remain with trained vrc's the next area of improvement pvacs that Congress should imp should improve is the subsistance rate for disabled veterans by tying the vr& rates to those offered by the post 911 GI bill this disparity creates significant administrative burdens for vrc's who are forced to calculate payments on their own and tying vr& to the same rate as GI Bill recipients would remove a financial barrier and improve program outcomes for veterans and staff alike Mr chairman the last point I'd like to make is that at every vrn hearing vsos members of Congress and the vrn program at self have stressed the need for increased resources for additional counselors to maintain the 1 to 1225 ratio the decentralization of hiring priorities makes this almost impossible at a local level VBA should ensure that vr& staffing needs are prioritized in the field to ensure that veterans are able to have reliable engagement with their counselors by all accounts I am a vr& success story I wouldn't be here today without the GI bill and the vr& programs while I battled my while I battled with my counselors and experienced many of the same issues we're highlighting today VR changed the trajectory of my life and I'm dedicated to the sustainability of this program for future disabled veterans this concludes my testimony PVA again thanks you for the opportunity to share our views on the VR program and I look forward to answering any questions you may have General lady yields uh the chair now recognizes Mr glenan you're now for five minutes to deliver your testimony sir chairman van Orton ranking member mvin and members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting me to speak at today's hearing on examining the effectiveness of the veterans ear and employment V program my name is Keith glenan president of the National Association of veterans program administrators our membership is comprised of school certifying officials and school administrators from over 400 colleges and universities Across the Nation representing over a half a million student veterans recently in preparation for this hearing Napa conducted a short survey of our members ship and their experiences with vr& we found issues with tungsten and vr& approvals schools still experiencing barriers in returning VA funding VRC counselors who feel overworked in heavy case loads and the communication for schools and student veterans with the vrc's at an all-time low Napa member schools and their and the students that we represent feel the same pressure by a lack of VRE communication shortage of vrc's in a system that is not grown when the population using it has the recent passage of the pack act has allowed many veterans suffering from the toxic exposures uh of War to receive a VA disability rating and in turn qualify for chapter 31 benefits under the VR program while Napa applauds the passage of this long overdue legislation we also wanted to report what's being observed and experienced in the field ihls are seeing that the chapter 31 program that was already stretched thin pulled even further VC's have shared that some Nava member schools that they are overburdened have extremely high and difficult to manage case loads and that they feel overburdened and burned out chapter 31 Disabled Student veterans are reporting a lack of communications with their VRC delays in their approvals delayed payments and increased stress both mentally and financially scoes are reporting that they have difficulty contacting vrc's and obtaining timely authorizations for their students during the Napa survey over 78% of our sco responded to the issues commun communicating with their vrc's not only did schools have this communication barrier but chapter 31 students themselves do when there is a turnover of vrc's Nationwide there is rarely notification to the student or to the school that the VRC has changed or left student veterans have shared that their emails or phone calls go unanswered and schools have had to contact VRC supervisors if they're even able to be known to help them receive their benefit during the Napa survey over 89% of participants reported that their students had difficulty in contacting their VRC which led to a delay in their educational benefits VC Communications have shown a trend in providing less contact information emails and purchase order author um authorizations excuse me uh have been omitting phone numbers on the communications that directly go to the VES I'm sorry uh po authorizations well an email address to a VRC or instead of GIC generic email inbox would be placed on there uh this information is vital so that a school can or a student can call and discuss the specific students academic needs payment issues or to get a new PO number um issued to the student when a new term is getting ready to start Napa recommends that updated field directory of all vrc's and supervisors be published on the va.gov website and maintained regarding VRE there is no standardized training provided to the scour it seems the VRC Nava members have reported that the VRC will give student veterans incorrect information and not truly understand how chapter 31 works this includes conflicting information from one uh VRC to another Napa recommends there needs to be standardized National Training for both the VRC and scoes who administer the benefit VD um VR and updates should be updated in their handbook and standardize procedures and support information made available tungsten information is not user friendly for the SC and we have difficulty finding student information in the system because of limited identifying information po authorization sent to schools only have a PO authorization number and no student information it barely just in the email on the subject it has a number you have to go into the tungsten system do a search based off of the the ID number that was sent the authorization number and then you have to look at the date range it was sent and then you can find out what student it's for they're also with many of these being sent to incorrect emails are not received At All by not being able to search tungsten for pi it stops benefits uh in their tracks until a sco can locate the appropriate one to be able to search to get the authorization we recommend that the VA work with tungsten to develop better criteria for po authorization and lastly Napa recommends we increase the number of VRC employees to better serve the increased VR student population I thank you for your time and I look forward to your questions thank you Mr glendan the written statement of Mr glendan will be entered into the record as well miss hows we'll now proceed to questioning I recognize Ru member 11 for 5 minutes thank you Mr chairman um Miss uh good to see you thanks for joining us the independent budget for fiscal years 25 to 26 recommended that the vne program should create and hire 300 administrative support staff positions to help reduce the administrative burden on vr& counselors why do you feel these positions assuming you do feel these positions would be helpful in the VR program thank you thank you for that question sir um the ballpark number we got for 300 was an estimated one assistant to every three counselors so we sort of did ballpark figures on that we were hoping that uh the hiring of these support staff would help eliminate some of that administrative burden not every V vr& participant has a super complex case if someone's doing well in school they only need a monthly check-in that could be a support staff that takes care of that um as far as I'm aware several vrss have been hired in the field that has increased fiscal accuracy for the program because counselors now have the ability to put their head down and do some of the work um we would love to see that more support staff get hired across the system we don't know exactly where these folks are but I think as we wait for the roll out of the modernization efforts these are folks that can sort of get us to that point and again not only have they increased fiscal accuracy but counselors are are freed up to do a little bit more of that more complex case work um thank you thank you for that what recommendations would you like to see put in place uh to vne where V particularly for instance where veterans and school certifying officials can't reach their counselors or where veterans need more time with their counselors I hate to say it yet again but we need more counselors um we have seen exponential growth in this program for years we've said oh people should use this well they're using using it and we can't expect the work to get done with the same Workforce it doesn't that's that Math's never going to shake out if we hire additional counselors particularly in high veteran concentrated areas that frees up so much more availability for counselors to dedicate their time to those complex cases for veterans who really struggle to find appropriate employment that meets their physical needs based on their service connected disabilities this also gets much more complex when you think about workplace accommodations what is the level of expectation for employers like a vrn counselor is not just ticking boxes for people and finding them a school right there's so much more to that and I think when we look at Staffing ratios or needs we need to consider the fact that all of these 125 people on this desk they're all Dynamic and they all have very different needs and for a PVA member that has the highest level of need that might take a little bit more time and I think if we staff it appropriately if we ever actually maintained the one to one 25 ratio particularly locally not nationally then counselors have the bandwidth to engage in those more complex cases thank you for for sharing that Mr glender let me uh turn to you in your uh written testimony you indicated that many of your members have issues with the invoice Payment Processing system that vne uses to authorize services and process invoices what recommendations would you like to see vne Implement to assist School certifying officials in certifying and processing payments for student veterans you know I think the first thing sir is that we need to have more standardized training school certifying officials and the burer offices that normally handle the processing of payments don't necessarily come into the position with training already established so I think if the VA were to develop standardized training that was taught at their level and then schools could have additional package training that could be taught uh at their level it would be more comprehensive for processing the benefit in a timely manner the other portion with that is making sure that the the authorizations are flowing in a timely manner as well what we're seeing is the stop Gap in the system when a PO authorization doesn't come in for an existing student today we've talked a lot about the student trying to become into the system but we have many students who aren't able to continue in the system because their fundings put on On Hold by not having that new authorization thank you now I appreciate U the continued input we're trying to get this right and uh I thank our friends at VA for staying to listen uh to uh to our vso's concerns uh I want to take just a second uh and also thank Allison bernheimer who is our fellow and this is going to be her last uh hearing with us uh but she is going now to fix the VR program is my understanding so this is very timely this is perfect and we're very grateful to you for uh spending this time with us Alison thank you thank you and I'll yield back Mr chairman gentleman yields the chair now recognizes Mr mvan for five minutes sir Miss how you had mentioned that you were a byproduct or benefited from this program can you do just a minute or two a little bit of deeper dive in that process and how it has benefited you thank you for the question sir um when I got out of the military I became a chef it just so happens that every service connected disability I had was exacerbated by 12 years in a kitchen um because of that I found out about the vr& program um upon completion of my undergrad degree uh all of the issues that we have highlighted today I ran into I had a rather combative counselor who the last time I had the honor of testifying in a vrn oversight hearing I kind of ripped him apart um I was very blunt about my encounters uh I had to do a lot of the leg work for myself to prove that the path that I thought might be suitable for myself would adhere to my service connected disabilities he had other opinions on that um it was a battle uh I was once I was finally in the program I was part of one of the pilots for the last um it upgrade or modernization effort um I have sort of seen seen this program from being rejected and trying again and trying again through the processes that exist that are intended to sort of weed F not necessarily weed folks out but they want people to be successful in this program and you have to do a certain element of work to even cross that Gap and once you're in that's a whole another separate world of conflicts and battles that you have to overcome um like I said in my opening statement I'm very grateful for the VR program it is wildly ironic to me that I now testify on behalf uh but I think as long as veterans are cleare eyed about what is expected of them to be successful in this program that's that's their side but vrn has and VA has an obligation to make sure that if a veteran overcomes all of those barriers they have an obligation to be in touch with them they are the other side of that coin and when veterans are not heard from when they feel like they are not listened to when they can't get a hold of their counselor this is a you know this is a symbiotic relationship that we need to find the balance on okay then in your testimony uh the written testimony you had mentioned uh basically for the VRC positions training and a new process in order for them to be more um accessible and to be able to uh the new VRC should be fully trained in approximately three years that was one of the recommendations when vrc's are overwhelmed with their case load it directly impacts the ability to on board and train new VCR vrc's um can you kind of do a little deeper dive in that paragraph and what you mean yes sir thank you um I think expecting someone to come out of a standardized training for a new job J and be Aces right out of the gate is naive I don't know anybody that's able to do that all employment requires on the job training it requires some peer advice it requires feedback from your manager and I think that as VR Works to standardize that onboarding process as was highlighted by my counterpart as they sort of work out the wrinkles in that as they become more efficient in their onboarding and their training for that standardization of understanding among their CAD of employees um that's going to help the long-term onboarding for folks and I think lost my train of that um we can't expect these folks to just know what they're doing it takes an element of time it takes an understanding and going through some of these more complex cases one by one to understand you know to see patterns and to see what works and to see what fails and I think we need to rely on them and their expertise and their experiences to know what's going to be beneficial what's going to work what should they avoid and that just takes time and it takes engagement and once we have that onboarding and training standardized I think that will alleviate quite a bit of the burden that our counselors are experiencing and by eliminating that our veterans have a better outcome and better relationship with their counselor thank you very much thank you for your testimony today does the gentleman yield I do yield back the gentleman yields back the chair now recognizes Mr McGarvey for five minutes thank you so much Mr chairman and you know from the previous panel too you know I think you heard all of us want to get this right and one of the things that that I'm seeing in this is a lack of consistency right a lack of consistent access to counselors lack of consistent and reliable access to these benefits to to this program which which actually does have an incredible track record Miss how you said you know when this program gets it right it really does an amazing job for our veterans and so what I think we need to do is is not just build consistency because it is what our veterans deserve we need to build this consistency because that's what's going to build trust in the VA and we want our veterans to know that we are honoring the promise we made to take care of them and we are honoring that that promise through these service Services they're able to access from the VA your testimony describes a lack of consistency and within the program there's a lack of consistency related to counselors to counselor availability to communication to even the way that benefits are calculated could you discuss then some of the recommendations on how the program can better ensure consistency in both of these areas of concern sort of starting with that communication with the counsel availability thank you for the question sir um I think when it comes to standardization of communications we're never going to get that exactly right I think the best we can hope for is somewhere above 70% um not all vrn counselors are created equal I think the chairman can attest to that um sometimes you get rock stars and sometimes you get rocks um I think that again if we standardize that training if we standardize some training if we make sure that that our counselors understand how to engage with veterans with complex cases that leaves them better off to engage with the folks that don't have as such a complex case many veterans that are in vr& need a monthly check-in and they go about finishing their education requirements they need substantially less handholding than some other folks but I think again particularly for PVA members that communication is so critical when you might be running into barriers you might have online platforms that are not accessible to you you know you have to think about a varying level of disabilities for these for these veterans and I think while we can improve the communication efforts I'm putting a lot of faith and stock into the roll out of this most recent modernization effort I think that will free up a lot of capacity to make those relationships more robust again we're talking 45,000 additional veterans on the books with no additional staff something's going to fall out of that yeah that's that's a great point I appreciate you bringing up the fact that not every counselor is the same not every Veteran's case is the same uh you know we're not producing A Nails on an assembly line here that that we are actually and but recognizing that's the case and and putting some systems in place to improve it should have been done yesterday um and you know one thing I think we want to help and I think we all have to give some Grace here let's not let's not be afraid to get caught trying uh and trying to get this better for our veterans so what about the consist consistency in the way that benefits are calculated could you talk a little bit that you talked about the lack of knowledge and understanding regarding the VR program among veterans themselves and family members even one the VFW in their letter to us told us word of mouth is how people are finding about some are finding about their their classes and that sort of thing um and the information online doesn't fully explain the process what what are some some steps you would take there to make it better thank you for the question sir um as I highlighted in my written testimony I think a way to solve this problem would be to tie vrn subsistence rate to the post 911 GI Bill I'm under the assumption that this has been a cost savings measure however if you are a disabled veteran who served before 911 and you engage with VR you're making about7 to $800 a month in subsistence allowance if are a veteran with a 20 30 10 20 30% disability rating that's you trying to be successful in education finding employment while living below the poverty line almost nationally if we eliminate that Financial restriction for participating veterans that's going to improve outcomes when you're not worried about how you're going to pay your rent your bills how are you going to buy food and this gets exponentially more complicated if somebody has a dependent child which only accounts for potentially $880 additional a month for that vrn rate thank you so much that is very instructive we'll take it back and Mr chairman I yield back the gentem yields uh I now recogniz this myself for five minutes uh Miss H and your testimony you're doing good you feeling all right it's a lot better now isn't it just got you just got to get into it I'm telling you right um I appreciate you supporting my bill hr8 646 the Moniz veterans on campus experience Act of 2024 and I want you to know that this committee listens to you guys because we amended the language of that bill uh to remove the limit on how many veterans Visa counselors could see and I think that's going to be helpful um the one thing that I want to ask you about is uh both of you have mentioned standardized training right and the fact you need to have a master's for this and all that stuff um how long do you guys and we'll start wit