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Page 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA + + + + + GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION + + + + + FY11 CITY PAIR PROGRAM PRE-SOLICITATION CONFERENCE + + + + + TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 2010 + + + + + The conference convened at 12:30 P.M. in conference room L1303 of 2200 Crystal Drive, Arlington, Virginia, Jerome Bristow, Event Facilitator, presiding. GSA CPP STAFF PRESENT: JEROME BRISTOW, Event Facilitator, Program Manager JERRY ELLIS, Business Management Specialist KRISTEN JAREMBACK, Contracting Officer KWANITA BROWN, Contract Specialist FRANK ROBINSON, FAS Acting Division Director, Center for Travel Management Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 2 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 12:33 p.m. 3 FACILITATOR BRISTOW: On the 4 record. Good afternoon, everyone and welcome 5 to FY11 6 Conference. 7 you for joining us here not only in person but 8 also on the telephone. 9 conducting a roll call for attendance. the 10 City Pair Pre-Solicitation We'd like to welcome and thank Shortly here, we'll be I just wanted to advise everyone 11 that this pre-solicitation conference is being 12 recorded. 13 ensure that we cover all of the salient issues 14 as well as the open discussions that we'll 15 have 16 Again, welcome and we thank you for coming. for This is for all of our benefits to the pre-solicitation conference. 17 To start us off, I'd like to have 18 Frank Robinson actually give the introduction 19 -- 20 21 22 MR. ROBINSON: Can we do the roll call? FACILITATOR BRISTOW: Okay. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 We Page 3 1 can do the roll call first. 2 here with our esteemed people from the City 3 Pair Team, Jerry Ellis. 4 MR. ELLIS: 5 and gentlemen. 6 Team. 7 8 MS. JAREMBACK: MR. MR. Acting 15 Management. Sznajder, of the Frank Robinson, Center MR. JOHNSON: for Travel Jay Johnson, DoD, US TransCom. 18 MR. CASE: Don Case, TO [Transportation Officer] of the AMC. 20 22 Gary ROBINSON: Director 16 21 SZNAJDER: Continental Airlines. 14 19 Kristen Jaremback, Contracting Officer, City Pair Team. 13 17 Kwanita Brown, City Pair Team, Contract Specialist. 11 12 Good afternoon, ladies Jerry Ellis, GSA City Pair MS. BROWN: 9 10 We'll start over MS. SIZEMORE: MS. CARSON: Patti Sizemore, DoD, AMC. Good afternoon. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 4 1 Kathy Carson, Center for Travel Management. 2 3 JUNK: Josh MR. McMAHON: Junk, AirTran Airways. 4 5 MR. Kevin McMahon, AirTran Airways. 6 MS. GULICK: Barbara Gulick, NSF. 7 MS. BRYANT: Kimberly Bryant, NSF. 8 MR. COYLE: 9 Airlines. 10 11 MR. DERAWIN: Kevin MR. VAN HORN: Chris Van Horn, DoD DTMO. 14 MR. STAEFE: 15 MR. CLIFFORD: 16 MS. SISSON: Denny Clifford with Sara Sisson, Delta Airlines. 19 20 Klaus Staefe, NASA. Delta Airlines. 17 18 Derawin, Department of Justice. 12 13 George Coyle, American MR. BILLONE: Tom Billone, United Airlines. 21 MR. 22 Secret Service. TUTONI: Vincent Tutoni, Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 5 1 2 MR. FLYNN: Office of Government wide Travel Policy. 3 4 MR. MS. ROBINSON: MR. KESSI: (Several 15 16 Shawn McGriff, Navy. people introduced off microphone.) 12 14 Cynthia Robinson, Matthew Kessi, Alaska MR. McGRIFF: 10 13 Dellinger, Airlines. 9 11 Mark U.S. Marine Corps. 7 8 DELLINGER: Department of State. 5 6 Craig Flynn with GSA, FACILITATOR BRISTOW: Missed one up front. MR. FLYNN: David Flynn, Department of Health and Human Services. FACILITATOR BRISTOW: I'm Jerry 17 Bristow, your facilitator for GSA, and now 18 we'll go to the phone for roll call on the 19 phone please. 20 21 22 MS. SINGLETARY: Lisa Singletary, U.S. Department of Commerce. MS. PRESLEY-DOSS: Carolyn Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 6 1 Presley-Doss, GSA. 2 MR. MALLIK: 3 MS. ELS: 4 MR. MS. 12 Virgin America. 13 MR. MS. Rebecca Ullrich, Donna Cavos, Frontier GOODMANN: Tony Goodmann, VANSELOW: Debbie Vanselow, THORN: Umeki Thorn, Department of Energy. 17 MR. CONROZZA: Dan Conrozza, Treasury/Public Debt. 19 MR. GAMMAN: Chris Gamman, U.S. 21 MR. OCLECH: Josh Oclech, SSA. 22 MR. ROSENMEIER: 20 with EPA. 15 18 Haag Airlines. MR. 16 ULLRICH: MR. CAVOS: 11 14 Jeff Midwest Airlines. 9 10 HAAG: Southwest Airlines. 7 8 Cheryl Els, Department of Commerce. 5 6 Abe Mallik, HHS. Airways. Jon Rosenmeier, Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 7 1 VA. 2 3 MR. Whitney Clayton, Army G4. 4 5 CLAYTON: MR. LOSSIER: Scott Lossier with JetBlue Airways. 6 MR. GAINES: 7 MR. ELLIS: 8 anybody else on the phone please? 9 (No verbal response.) 10 Okay. Joy Gaines, NIH. Okay. Do we have Thank you very much. Again 11 people on the phone please put your phones on 12 mute unless you're asking a question or making 13 a statement. 14 Thank you. FACILITATOR BRISTOW: all 15 you 16 again, I just wanted to advise. 17 a 18 Groundhog Day I guess. 19 well, but we do this on a yearly basis and we 20 like to meet here to discuss the issues for 21 the new City Pair Awards, not only what's of 22 concern to our government travelers but also yearly for your basis. attendance Again thank So we're today. Once We do this on almost like Today is Groundhog as Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 8 1 what's a concern of the air carriers. And 2 then how this impacts our City Pair contracts. 3 So without further ado I'm going 4 to introduce Frank Robinson to welcome us on 5 board here. 6 MR. ROBINSON: 7 afternoon, everyone. 8 real 9 rule. quickly and Well, good One housekeeping thing I've already broken this I'm Frank Robinson with GSA. As you 10 make comments today or discussions, please 11 state your name and who you're with so that 12 the 13 Okay. court reporter 14 can pick all that up. But I want to start by welcoming 15 everybody here this afternoon. Especially 16 appreciate by 17 carriers 18 successful, but as well as our customers both 19 here and on the phone who really it's their 20 requirements 21 solicitation. 22 but we're really here representing the needs the who participation have that are made this the represented air program in this The GSA does the procurement, Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 9 1 of our customers in the Federal agencies and 2 in 3 everybody taking time today to come to the 4 solicitation conference. Department 5 of Defense. So appreciate This is the 30th solicitation for 6 the Contract City Pair Program. 7 1980 8 Okay. In FY10, we awarded a little over 5,000 9 markets. with 13 markets, It started in one-three markets. I think 5,003 to be precise is where 10 we settled at. 11 community getting together with the airlines 12 to ensure that we have a vibrant City Pair 13 Program for the Federal Government. 14 So 30 years of customer- There's a number of issues that 15 we're going to be continuing to work through 16 and 17 requirements, minor qualifications that will 18 be discussed today. 19 reduced capacity. 20 flown at all. 21 going to or have already impacted connecting 22 time for example that needs to be allowed for some of which are reflected in the The airline industry has Some routes are no longer And those capacity changes are Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 10 1 passengers and their luggage 2 connections both domestically and overseas. surcharges. to Those make 3 Fuel on the 4 phone I am knocking on wood. 5 somewhat here in the past year or so and we 6 hope that continues. 7 to that issue as well. Have abated But we're ever vigilant 8 Baggage fees and ancillary fees. 9 Increasingly a significant percentage of the 10 total cost 11 ancillary fees versus the airfare. 12 some of the baggage, first baggage, fees $7 to 13 $35 here recently. 14 for one bag on a $300 airfare. 15 pretty substantial percentage of the total 16 cost. So I think that's going to continue to 17 be a concern. 18 of travel Secure of the resides in these I think On a round trip that's $70 flight. That's a travel agencies I believe and the that 19 most ETS 20 vendors are able to handle the secure flight 21 data that the airlines need to pass on to TSA 22 and the secure flight program folks. So that Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 11 1 appears to be going well. 2 in particular has any comments on the TMC 3 communities and the ETS vendor communities 4 available to pass this data through we would 5 certainly welcome hearing about that. 6 But if the industry And then finally I think -- Well, 7 not finally. 8 meeting, 9 United brought up that the European Union was I Two more points. think it was In our last Tom Billone with 10 considering some sort of surcharge or carbon 11 emissions recovery fee that would be part of 12 the airfares. 13 point that we're going to keep our finger on 14 the pulse on and continue to observe with our 15 airline partners. 16 But We see that as a continuing greenhouse gas emissions in 17 general. The President signed an Executive 18 Order requiring the agencies to baseline their 19 greenhouse emissions for travel that occurred 20 in 2008. 21 capacity to do that for those agencies who we 22 receive their travel agency data. GSA Travel MIS Program has the But that Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 12 1 will continue to be a focus point and may 2 become a bigger consideration for CPP in the 3 future. 4 in the FY11 solicitation in that area. We don't foresee any changes really 5 So in closing I just want to say 6 that the Government certainly strives to be a 7 good customer to the airline industry. 8 72 percent of the traffic of the Government's 9 air travel was on either YCA or _CA fare. Over 10 Another 16 percent was on YDG fares. 11 got some 78 percent of the Government's travel 12 taking place on official Government fares. 13 88. 14 Did I say 78? I'm sorry. So we've Thanks, Jerry. Eighty-eight percent. 15 We'll continue to look forward to 16 getting the fares and the service that will 17 inspire 18 continue to use and value the program. 19 our customers and our agencies to With that, I'm going to turn it 20 back 21 questions from you while I'm up here? 22 So to Jerry Bristow. Are there (No verbal response.) Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 any Page 13 1 2 Good. Okay. Thank you all very much. 3 4 Well, I explained that one. FACILITATOR BRISTOW: Frank. Thank you, I appreciate that. 5 We're going to move right on to 6 the agenda here. 7 slow. 8 -- Well, we are a little bit There it is. 9 We're going to be doing a Slide two. FACILITATOR BRISTOW: 10 MR. ELLIS: We're on 11 slide two please. We're going to do a review 12 of the general requirements. Under Section 13 B.1, the 14 definitions. 15 the maximum connecting times. 16 we're going to do some review of the activity 17 reporting and then we'll show the FY11 market 18 selection. The City Pair Program website, the 19 City Program 20 general inquiries. 21 floor for any further discussions or comments 22 that you may have along the way. we're Pair going to show changes in Under Section B.9, changes in Points Section B.36, of contact and And then we'll open the Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 14 1 I believe the first to come up 2 will be Kwanita Brown and she's going to do 3 the review of the general requirements for 4 Attachment 1. 5 MS. BROWN: Good afternoon, 6 everybody. 7 I'm the Contract Specialist on the City Pair 8 Program. 9 Again, my name is Kwanita Brown. So on this first slide in regards 10 to the general requirements, within the RFP 11 there is a proposal checklist which you can 12 use to sort of guide you through the process 13 of 14 Basically, it will just itemize everything 15 that you need to submit in paper format. completing 16 your technical submissions. There have been no changes to the 17 proposal checklist, but you do want to note 18 that paper submissions are due by 3:00 p.m. on 19 March 20 couriered over and just note that they do have 21 to go through a screening process. 22 want to keep that in mind when you're sending 25th. Those should be mailed or So you Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 15 1 those submissions. 2 Another note is that and to 4 registrations. 5 you're up to date or if you need to renew make 6 sure ORCA 7 submission 8 proposals. You want to make sure that renew 9 CCR want take of your you 3 you of thing your your registration prior to technical FACILITATOR BRISTOW: and price Do those 10 come out yearly for renewal? 11 a request or do they actually have to go in? 12 MS. BROWN: Do they send out I believe you have to 13 go in and maintain that. 14 anything where they actually send out a notice 15 for renewal. 16 you go in as you're putting together your 17 packet and your proposal. 18 going into the system to make sure all that 19 information is current and up to date. 20 So you just want to make sure Okay. 21 COPS or 22 System. I haven't heard of the Make sure you're City The next slide talks about Pair Offer Preparation This is the online system that we use Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 16 1 for the submission of our technical and price 2 proposals. 3 user name and a password. 4 airline carriers towards the end of February 5 there will be an email that gets sent out 6 requesting to know who the users are that you 7 want 8 create a user name and a password for those 9 particular representatives. to It is a system that requires a have 10 And access then to So for all the what the will system. We'll happen is 11 there's a three phase to the online system. 12 We start out with a COPS test application. 13 This allows your users to go into the system 14 in a test format and just get familiar with 15 the system. 16 offers 17 everything. 18 and Get familiar with uploading your just get comfortable with We're going to open up COPS for 19 that test application on March 1st which is a 20 Monday and we're going to close it at the end 21 of the week on Friday, March 5th. 22 to then reopen COPS on March 8th and that's We're going Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 17 1 when it's going to be when we're going to go 2 into live production. 3 start submitting your proposals for the Group 4 1 and extended markets and that system and 5 live production for Group 1 upload will remain 6 open until Thursday, March 25th at which time 7 we 8 computating and generating those reports. 9 will then reopen up COPS for the Group 2 offer will close the At that time, you will system and we'll start We 10 upload on March 29th and again we will close 11 it again on April 13th. 12 One of the main things I do want 13 to stress for 14 typically we have a lot of airline carriers 15 wait until the very last minute close to the 16 deadline to actually submit their offers. 17 it's 18 earlier rather than waiting until the last 19 day, we may not have as much congestion with 20 the system. 21 you're submitting your offers. 22 year we did have some issues with that. possible the to COPS sort system of have is that If that done So just keep that in mind as I know last Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 So if Page 18 1 you're able to sort of get those offers in 2 quicker that would be great. 3 4 Any questions on this or should I move forward? 5 MR. ELLIS: That was slide four. 6 MS. BROWN: Okay. Now we're on 7 slide 5 which is the last part of the review 8 of general requirements. 9 subcontracting plan renewal. This deals with the Back in November 10 of last year there was an email that went out 11 to about eight of the airlines carriers who 12 follow 13 subcontracting plan. a commercial 14 And pretty plan much for their what the 15 commercial plan is that this plan follows your 16 fiscal year. 17 days out. 18 plan will go into effect usually from January 19 1st to December 31st. And we do the renewal about 60 And once that happens then your 20 We also have an individual plan 21 which we have two carriers that follow that 22 plan. That plan follows our contract period Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 19 1 which is October 1st until September 30th and 2 also follows any option periods that we're in. 3 And just to note for this, there 4 are report 5 subcontracting plans. 6 reports that are to be submitted and basically 7 they're 8 electronic subcontracting reporting system or 9 eSRS. supposed We have requirements to for the There are two types of be submitted in our the Individual Subcontract 10 Report which is required for those carriers 11 who submit an individual plan. 12 At the bottom here for the 13 reporting periods, it will indicate to you 14 when you're supposed to submit them and for 15 what period of time. So if you are submitting 16 an which 17 contract period, you want to make sure that 18 you're submitting an individual subcontract 19 report for April 30th and then also by October 20 30th. 21 cover the period of October 1st through March 22 31st and the one for October 30th will cover individual plan again covers the And the one for April 30th is going to Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 20 1 April 1st through September 30th. 2 For those individuals who are 3 submitting this on a commercial plan as well 4 as those who are submitting an individual plan 5 it basically is for all offerors you have to 6 submit a Summary Subcontract Report and that 7 has to be submitted by October 30th and it 8 covers the entire government's fiscal year. 9 So basically when you're reporting 10 your 11 accomplishments. You're taking a look at your 12 goals also 13 actually spent on your subcontracting for that 14 fiscal year and you're reporting that in that 15 summary subcontract report. 16 numbers and you're then reporting looking at actual what you Now last year and also up until 17 January I sent out several emails to your 18 points of contact within your airlines who 19 work on the subcontracting plan. 20 should be familiar with reporting. 21 need any further clarification feel free to 22 give me a call, send me an email, and I'll be So they If you do Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 21 1 more than happy to explain this any further. 2 And just another reiterance. 3 the 4 system, you want to make sure that when you're 5 submitting 6 submitting a copy to Kristen Jaremback, the 7 Contracting Officer. 8 submit 9 notified when that happens so we can go in and 10 electronic a these report reports to reporting that you're And you want to also myself so that we're look at those reports and approve them. 11 12 subcontracting For Any questions that I can answer right now? 13 Tom. MR. BILLONE: All 14 Airlines. 15 passed to the people that we gave as point of 16 contacts. information has MS. BROWN: Yes. Do I need to wait for -- 19 (Off the record comments.) 20 Do I need to wait for it? 21 22 been So they're aware of this schedule. 17 18 this Tom Billone, United Can you hear me? That's correct. All of the points Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 22 1 of contact for the airline carriers who I work 2 with for the subcontracting plan renewal have 3 been notified. 4 airline 5 compliance. 6 subcontracting 7 additional carriers who will need to renew 8 their 9 solicitation because they follow a different As of right now, I have eight carriers who You've plans are already plans. for I this already in renewed only your have upcoming three FY11 10 time. One has a different commercial fiscal 11 year and the other two follow our contract 12 period. 13 all this information has been forwarded to 14 your points of contact. So everyone else is in compliance and 15 MR. BILLONE: 16 MS. BROWN: Okay. Now we're on slide six 17 which is section B talking about the changes 18 in our definition section. The first change 19 that we have was to include a definition for 20 churning 21 excessive changing, rebooking and canceling of 22 the same itinerary in the same Passenger Name and the definition reads "the Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 23 1 Record or PNR 2 reservation." in order to hold the 3 And basically this was a generic 4 definition that our PMO Office received from 5 the carriers to include into our RFP. 6 definition refers to commercial type fares 7 where there has been a change that was made to 8 avoid a penalty or a fee. 9 solicit from the The And we do want to airline carriers and the 10 industry in general if you do have any better 11 -- like any suggestions for a better way to 12 define this. 13 those 14 incorporate that into the RFP for the final 15 solicitation. We're more than happy to receive from 16 you in terms MR. ACQUILINO: of trying to Let me just say we 17 apologize for moving this back and forth like 18 a 19 there's only one microphone that can be used 20 in this room. relay. 21 22 Our facilities tell us So we apologize. MR. STAEFE: NASA. people I'm Klaus Staefe with Should churning really be part of CPP? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 24 1 Should it not be something that GSA should be 2 looking at the eTravel providers to police 3 that so that the churning part of it won't 4 happen? 5 FACILITATOR BRISTOW: Thank you 6 very much. There's been an ongoing discussion 7 that 8 agencies, the TMCs, the CTOs, the airlines, 9 participants, the ETS vendors, and then the we've been having with the travel 10 City Pair Program. 11 arisen out of this is that each of those areas 12 take responsibility for their area in this 13 process. 14 One of the areas that's ETS churning inside the record or 15 as they say problem with the system. TMCs 16 churning of the reservation within the same 17 record. 18 the 19 churning on a commercial basis as there are 20 people that are trying to avoid ticketing at 21 that time by churning that record, changing 22 the dates, to avoid that ticketing time limit. Airlines now have the technology and capability to be tracking churning, Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 25 1 We do not have ticketing time 2 limits within the City Pair Program. We have 3 no change fees, no cancellation penalties and 4 they're totally refundable. 5 try to enhance the City Pair Program by having 6 a definition in here for churning and avoid 7 these debit memo issues that are coming back 8 as an indirect charge back to the government 9 agencies. We're looking to That in itself is what is the 10 essence of this churning capability here. 11 I want to say. 12 MR. ACQUILINO: I think I want to 13 emphasize 14 government fares and not commercial ones. 15 that. All We're FACILITATOR 16 right. 17 government fares here. 18 We're only MR. talking about BRISTOW: talking That's about the Not commercial fares. CLIFFORD: Denny Clifford, 19 Delta. There's a lesson I say within my 20 comment here because we have Y fares for our 21 best 22 subject to receiving debit memos on churning. commercial customers which are Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 still Page 26 1 My question to it all is should why does the 2 Government 3 those rules when our best customers who are 4 under the last seat availability rules are 5 subject to this. 6 think you FACILITATOR be exempt from BRISTOW: Are 7 saying that no changes are allowed in the 8 record in the churning process? 9 MR. CLIFFORD: you I'm saying where 10 there's a cancellation and then when there's a 11 canceled, booked, canceled, booked situation. 12 Our best customers also receive it. 13 14 PARTICIPANT: 17 you speak up please? 15 16 Can MR. ELLIS: Denny, you need to speak up. MR. CLIFFORD: I'm saying that 18 when there is a multiple of cancellations and 19 bookings whether it be the same record, in 20 Delta's policy is whether it would be the same 21 record or different PNRs that that passenger's 22 agency will get billed the debit memo from Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 27 1 churning. 2 FACILITATOR 3 times would 4 churning debit memo? don't it be have BRISTOW: before it How many triggers a That's what's at issue. 5 We 6 Some 7 Others 8 themselves 9 cancellation penalties, a totally refundable carriers a standardized time frame. do not understand would be charge for churning. that the no change fare rules fees, no 10 type ticket. 11 the people if they wanted to come home a day 12 earlier or needed to extend their time. 13 would be able to do so without an indirect 14 penalty. 15 It's allowed to be changed for MR. CLIFFORD: As far They as the 16 frequency, Jerry, that's proprietary. 17 me just tell that it happens and there are 18 parameters, 19 parameters under which churning is issued. 20 It's 21 There's a lot of different things that it gets 22 involved in. not very just specific one set But let parameters, of many circumstances. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 28 1 2 3 But the point is that the commercial business still follows these rules. Why shouldn't the Government? 4 MR. BILLONE: 5 Airlines. I'm 6 differently than 7 because 8 debit memos for churning. 9 this United Tom Billone, United looking Denny at at situation, is this it this a looking little at it time doesn't issue However, looking at appears you don't have 10 ticketing time limits. 11 have an approval time limit. 12 the systems if you don't have approval within 13 48 hours, the record is canceled. 14 requires your traveler to go in and rebook. 15 That's is And in some of what's So that generating approval the churning. 17 that's built into the systems. 18 hours and I don't get approval. 19 go in and rebook and I've got another 48 hours 20 and it drops and I rebook. Okay. 21 So got now the You 16 22 It But, yes, you do. you've time limit And so I go 48 It drops. some I issues there and when the airline robotics look at Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 29 1 this they don't 2 anything else. 3 booking and rebooking in the same PNR and that 4 I think is what's driving a lot of the debit 5 memo issues. 6 look at it as a YCA or It looks at it as you're That's my own opinion. MR. CLIFFORD: Denny Clifford, 7 Delta. I still didn't get a response to my 8 question. 9 does the Government think it's exempt from 10 something 11 friend? All I got was a question back. that 12 we apply Why to our commercial FACILITATOR BRISTOW: Strictly for 13 the benefits of the fare that we have not 14 changed over this entire time. 15 under the City Pair Program no change fee, no 16 cancellation 17 ticket. 18 that we have not made that change. penalty, The benefits totally refundable 19 The spirit of that contract is such What's happened here is that the 20 carriers now have the technology and 21 ability to be able to track a process like 22 churning. We've not changed our behavior. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 the Page 30 1 The carriers have changed their behavior in 2 being able to do this. 3 We want to make sure also in 4 regards to the approval process. 5 make sure we get the inventory back to the 6 carriers as swiftly as possible so that you're 7 able to resell that seat and not open it. 8 That was the initial intent of the approval 9 process. Now turns over here out created churning that another 11 indirectly we're getting a debit memo sent 12 back through the TMC when we don't believe 13 that we should be getting charged any fee for 14 changes whether or not direct or indirect back 15 to the TMCs through the carriers. MR. CLIFFORD: on we've 10 16 issue it We want to Denny Clifford. So 17 who is supposed to pick up your GDS fees then? 18 I mean every time that happens, Jerry, as you 19 know 20 Somebody's got to pay for that. 21 earlier that you're incorporating this into 22 the contract to enhance the program. the GDS fee is charged the airline. You mentioned Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 31 1 What makes the GSA think that this 2 is going to somehow stop the elements or the 3 instances of churning? 4 is going to exacerbate the entire problem. 5 nobody has a consequence, if nobody has a 6 penalty 7 violating the booking rules, what's to stop 8 them from running roughshod over the entire 9 system? or a down In our opinion, this side, to churning If and They'll run amok. 10 FACILITATOR BRISTOW: And that 11 point is taken. 12 fact that not everybody is doing this churning 13 however many times you think it is going to 14 trigger this debit memo. 15 whether or not it's going to be three times a 16 PNR a week or twice in one day that's going to 17 trigger this. 18 stop 19 inclination from the carriers as to what that 20 is. this But we're also looking at the You haven't told us We would not be able to even without having some kind 21 (Off the record comment.) 22 FACILITATOR BRISTOW: of What happens Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 32 1 if someone needs to make a change to further 2 meet their mission requirements. 3 4 MR. CLIFFORD: about making changes. 5 6 This isn't talking MR. ELLIS: Guys, please have the microphones. 7 FACILITATOR BRISTOW: 8 changes within the same PNR that's churning. 9 MR. BILLONE: Billone, United It's making You're trying to -- 10 Tom Airlines. 11 happening is the person is going in and making 12 a booking. 13 not approved. 14 rebook it. Within 48 hours that booking is It drops. They go in again and That's what churning is. 15 A change -- What would you change 16 in the same itinerary in the same PNR? 17 would you change? 18 What's That's not What You could change a flight. churning because you're not 19 rebooking the same inventory. Churning is 20 rebooking the same flight, the same time, the 21 same day and the same PNR. There should be no 22 reason for that on a Government fare. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 33 1 You could go in if you have a PNR 2 and you make a change. 3 flight tonight. 4 a free change that you get. 5 I mean you're ticketed. 6 There's no fee. 7 flight time. 8 9 10 I need to change my That's not churning. That's There's no fee. You make a change. You want to change your So churning is the same flight, the same day, the same time and the same PNR. That's what that is and there should not be 11 any of that. 12 you don't have ticketing time limits. 13 only time limit you have is the 48 hours for 14 approval and that's what's generating this. 15 There's no reason for it because The Now if you want to put a 48 hour 16 ticketing time limit we'll be willing to talk 17 to you about that. 18 MR. 19 Delta. All 20 underscore 21 willing 22 limits as well. CLIFFORD: to valid what talk you Denny points, just Tom, about the said. Clifford, and We'd we ticketing Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 be time Page 34 1 You know we see instances where 2 people are doing churning several times a day. 3 They may not even know about it, but they're 4 doing it. Which brings me to Klaus' point why 5 are not the DTS and ETS systems designed, a 6 software change, in order to mitigate this 7 problem. 8 totally, but you could sure take a lot of it 9 off the table if the software is changed and You're not going to eliminate it 10 we have yet to understand or even to hear that 11 there have been any significant movements in 12 that regard. 13 Secondly, another point I want to 14 make is just education. 15 people 16 they're doing and the education has not been 17 out there. 18 issue for six months, Jerry, every month at 19 GSA 20 issue. 21 and nothing material with respect to education 22 or changing the systems technologically. and out there that You know there are have no clue what We've been talking about this all of industry meets about this There has been glacial movement on it Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 35 1 MR. ACQUILINO: Can your robotics 2 tell us how many times this is happening? 3 many 4 bigger than a breadbox? instances this is 5 MR. CLIFFORD: 6 MR. ACQUILINO: 7 happening? How Is Yes. Can you provide us that information? 8 MR. CLIFFORD: 9 MR. ACQUILINO: Yes. So we understand 10 what the magnitude is for Delta and everyone 11 else that has that same issue. 12 MR. CLIFFORD: 13 MR. What changes? ACQUILINO: Well, we would 14 just need to know how many times that happens 15 and what's your exposure. 16 costs you money in the GDS. 17 exposure to that unneeded expenditure. 18 19 MR. CLIFFORD: You're saying it What's your It's bigger than a breadbox. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MR. ACQUILINO: 22 it Can you tell us? Can you send us what that is? Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 36 1 MR. CLIFFORD: Yes. 2 MR. ACQUILINO: All right. So 3 you'll tell us how big that is and what kind 4 that is. 5 6 Thank you. MS. CARLOCK: Jerry, I do have a question. 7 FACILITATOR BRISTOW: Go ahead. 8 (Off the record comments.) 9 MS. CARLOCK: I'm Andrea Carlock 10 from Defense Travel Management Office. 11 question that I have is I'm not sure that you 12 two [Delta and United Airlines] are on the 13 same sheet of music as to what churning is. 14 And I think before we can move forward we need 15 to make sure that the airlines are going to 16 apply 17 Because I hear you saying one thing and I 18 think I'm hearing you say something a little 19 bit different. 20 21 22 churning similar across FACILITATOR BRISTOW: the No. The board. That's not the way it's intended. MS. CARLOCK: Okay. Am I the only Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 37 1 one that -- What I heard was that in your 2 instance the churning may not necessarily be 3 just because of the 48 hour ticket issuance 4 time and that it is -- that Delta-Northwest is 5 applying churning charges for things other 6 than just that and maybe I misunderstood. 7 I think that's important. 8 My 9 other thing is with But the definition I like what you said in regards to 10 the specifics. 11 more specific in our definition? 12 use 13 subjective. 14 then put a little bit more specifics in there 15 so there is no misunderstanding exactly what 16 we mean by that churning City Pair fares, what 17 they're referring to. the word Is there some way we can be 18 "excessive", And when we excessive is What does that really mean? And Correct? FACILITATOR BRISTOW: Correct. 19 Right. We're only talking about City Pair 20 fares 21 description that we were able to locate. 22 change here in now. the This was language a is generic up Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 The for Page 38 1 interpretation today. 2 make that change to be able to move that 3 forward. 4 MR. COYLE: George with American 5 Airlines. 6 question. 7 maybe it would be helpful to say "applicable 8 only to government fares." 9 apply to non government fares on a commercial 10 11 Actually We'll have two weeks to you just answered my Being specific in the definition So it would not basis. FACILITATOR BRISTOW: And 12 believe we're going to cover that in the debit 13 memos which is going to be the next slide here 14 in the definitions. 15 other question, one other area here when Denny 16 said we sort of move glacially. 17 some areas we've moved expeditiously. 18 a debit memo council that we've put together 19 here since last summer which has allowed us to 20 (1) clarify the Fly America Act and to ensure 21 that we're not auditing those inappropriately. 22 We believe that has minimized some I I just want to ask one I think in There's Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 39 1 of the debit memos 2 overcharges 3 carriers that are assisting them. 4 already from some of the carriers they say 5 their debit memo process has gone down which 6 is a good thing. 7 are 8 works 9 process and this is the extent we're trying to that expressing together or are the coming old notice back to of the We've seen TMCs, CTOs, travel agencies the it same will that as everybody help minimize this 10 do right now is to minimize the debit memos 11 for the carriers as well as the TMCs and avoid 12 that indirect fee coming back to government 13 agencies. 14 Next slide please. 15 MS. BROWN: Okay. Slide 7. This slide is 16 also talking about another definition that was 17 added into this year's solicitation. 18 refers to debit memos and the definition reads 19 as "an accounting tool used by all airlines to 20 collect amounts or make adjustments to agent 21 transactions 22 and/or use of traffic documents issued by or with respect to the This one issuance Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 40 1 at the request 2 contract carrier shall not issue debit memos 3 on YCA, _CA, or _CB fares to Commercial Travel 4 Offices 5 churning. or 6 of Travel a travel Management agency. The Centers for And then compare churning." I just want to make a note that 7 this definition was slightly modified from the 8 version that was sent out to all the carriers 9 and that was included 10 solicitation. 11 to some of the language. 12 PARTICIPANT: 13 in the So it's a slight modification Can I have the slide number please? 14 MS. BROWN: Slide seven. 15 MR. ELLIS: Slide seven. 16 You need to identify yourself. 17 18 draft MR. BILLONE: It's not in the packet. 19 MS. BROWN: 20 MR. STAEFE: Okay. Klaus Staefe 21 NASA again. That was my point to bring up. 22 These debit memos are going directly to the from Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 41 1 TMCs and when asked of a TMC they're upset 2 because 3 thousand dollars for the churning charge, but 4 yet they shouldn't come there. 5 talk to each provider and I talk to them and 6 they say, "Oh, that's business as usual." 7 they will not stand behind this. 8 "If they want to send it to the TMCs, we're 9 not going to get in the middle of it." they're getting bills that's what I'm trying to avoid. 11 FACILITATOR BRISTOW: the carriers And They'll say, And Debit memos 12 are 13 agency, not the ETS provider. 14 contact the carriers have for this is through 15 the TMCs or the CTOs. 16 from several And when we 10 sent of to the travel That's the only I guess the other question would 17 be if the NASA travelers are in there churning 18 the record, rebooking, rebooking, rebooking, 19 that ends up issuing a debit memo, is NASA 20 then going to pay for the churning of that 21 debit memo? 22 MR. STAEFE: I'm reading this as a Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 42 1 contract carrier shall not issue debit memos 2 to commercial travel offices or TMCs or in our 3 case it's CI Travel. 4 FACILITATOR BRISTOW: 5 MR. STAEFE: Okay. Correct. So the debit 6 memos are going directly to CI Travel which 7 they shouldn't. 8 9 Is that correct? FACILITATOR BRISTOW: Debit memos have to go to the travel agency, in your case, 10 CI Travel. That's the only communications 11 that the carriers have. 12 shows on the reservation as to where it's 13 coming, 14 provider is an online booking engine not the - 15 - not the ETS Their IATA number provider. 16 MR. CLIFFORD: 17 FACILITATOR The ETS Ticket fulfillment. BRISTOW: -- ticket 18 fulfillment center. 19 fulfillment center is being documented from 20 the carriers to the travel agency, not your 21 ETS provider. 22 And it's where the ticket What we have done with ETS is to Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 43 1 help ensure 2 bookings. 3 4 that MR. you don't have duplicate STAEFE: That's happened. 5 FACILITATOR about BRISTOW: talking 7 different issue on duplicate bookings. 8 MR. here. STAEFE: There Churning. is a The churning part of it. 10 11 churning We're 6 9 what's FACILITATOR BRISTOW: That's correct. 12 MR. STAEFE: They're going into 13 the system. 14 they're going into the system and churning. 15 It's 16 Airlines. 17 like What the travelers are doing is identified by Denny and United And that creates the debit memos. Now TMC, the travel office, 18 sitting there and they're getting these debit 19 memos. 20 service provider to avoid letting those go 21 through and that's -- I think isn't that part 22 of GSA to police? is Why are we not policing the travel Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 44 1 FACILITATOR BRISTOW: They might 2 have to put a restriction on the ETS system as 3 to 4 could access the system. how many 5 times our government agencies Right? MR. ROBINSON: Yes. Hi. This is 6 Frank Robinson and I'm the COTR on the ETS 7 services or eGov Travel. 8 we've had this discussion a lot with our TMC 9 forum that we have in conjunction with SGTP. One of the things, 10 But we have a separate TMC forum and at the 11 last 12 representative. A 13 escapes there. 14 identified is the travelers really haven't 15 changed their behavior significantly. TMC forum, me, 16 was in fact, young it was lady, a NASA And her what name was There has always been people who 17 have changed 18 usually 19 organization the more likely their schedules 20 are going to change. 21 agreed that travelers haven't changed what 22 they do. the their further reservations up you get a lot and in an But, in general, she Their schedules change. They need Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 45 1 to go in and book. 2 they're 3 didn't do five years ago or ten years ago. 4 The nature of their business requires them to 5 change their reservations. not 6 They need to rebook. doing What anything has now changed is And that how they the 7 airlines measure those changes and decide to 8 impose fees on those changes. 9 has transpired. Okay. That is what So I think I heard you 10 correctly in saying where you have travelers 11 who are actually abusing the service it's the 12 responsibility 13 actually police their employees because if 14 your employee is using a tool to actually 15 abuse it. 16 of the federal agencies to But if the employee is using the 17 tool, online booking tool, in a manner that 18 they -- You know we're talking about sometimes 19 as few as two or three changes and wham you're 20 booked 21 Debit memo. 22 -- you're whacked within churning. We're not talking about 20 or 30 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 46 1 changes. We're talking about less than a 2 handful in a lot of cases which result in 3 these 4 That's not unusual behavior for people who 5 travel for the Federal Government especially 6 in certain capacities. 7 is the airlines are now charging for that 8 behavior when they didn't before. debit 9 memos to the travel agencies. All right. What it is One last thing, too, this is for 10 City Pair fares. 11 have says you can cancel, change, amend as 12 often as you need to in order to accomplish 13 the government's mission. 14 going to apply and it already applies to the 15 City Pair fares. 16 this. 17 already 18 requirement. 19 20 21 22 The City Pair fares that we So you know it's We've already had reached This is a clarification to what is currently a CPP master I hope that helped. comments from the airlines. MR. BILLONE: contract I have two Jerry. Tom Billone, United Airlines again. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 47 1 We keep hearing this thing, this 2 excuse, that the traveler hasn't changed their 3 behavior, that the airlines have changed their 4 process, 5 government's side. 6 gone to online booking and almost every one of 7 these issues is related to online booking. that 8 9 nothing has Well, excuse me. overcharge? the You've You keep shaking your head no. You've got to understand. 11 change also. 12 to make a change. 14 on Do you want to get into notices of 10 13 changed You need to make a Your travelers are going to need It's not only the airlines. The world has changed. All right. And people need to change their behavior. 15 And if you keep saying "Well, it's 16 the airlines' fault, they've changed, they 17 learned how to charge for this" and you don't 18 do anything on the other end to stop it, we're 19 going to have some real problems with this 20 program. 21 30 years that's really good. 22 acting like it's 30 years ago. And I'm telling you as a fact that But it's still You also need Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 48 1 to change on the government's side. 2 MR. CLIFFORD: 3 Delta. 4 mouth, Tom. 5 to say. Denny Clifford at You took the words right out of my 6 This is exactly what I was going And, Frank, you made the statement 7 that traffic patterns have not changed as if 8 that is a good thing. 9 It is not a good thing. The reason the airlines built the technology 10 to keep track of this stuff is we needed to 11 change passenger behavior. 12 where a half a dozen evolutions of data to 13 book, cancel, book, cancel that is not normal. 14 That's precisely the kind of thing that we're 15 16 trying to prevent here. A half a dozen times. That's $100 to us when you consider all the 17 GDS fees. 18 airlines do. 19 And to your point Who is going to pick that up? And without the The opportunity 20 book or at least bill debit memos we have to 21 eat that charge. to 22 And people have no recourse. The traveler has no penalties. The travel Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 49 1 agency who a lot of times frankly does not 2 have control over this has no other option 3 other than to pay the debit memo and it wasn't 4 even their fault. 5 But when somebody does not have 6 some downside, some skin in the game, then 7 you're going to see this just take off like a 8 rocket. 9 two dozen. Those half a dozen are going to be 10 I just don't counterintuitive. understand 11 It's 12 understand the logic of trying to impose this 13 within 14 somehow magically maybe the debit memos may go 15 away because you've forced it down our throats 16 to make it go away with language changes. the 17 contract and I that. figure just out that But it's counterintuitive to think 18 that the behavior is going to change. 19 not. 20 before. It's It's going to be worse than it was 21 22 don't MR. ROBINSON: for that. Thank you very much First, I will stand by what we said Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 50 1 before. There's not an industry standard on 2 what 3 charges a debit memo after two reservation 4 changes. 5 a debit memo after six reservation changes. 6 Some put it on you and say, "What's this guy 7 doing? 8 traveler 9 changes?" constitutes churning. One airline Another is more tolerant and charges Can somebody -- Can you reign in this because now they've made eight Okay. 10 The change, you're trying 12 they're 13 transparency on this practice by the airlines. trying that behavior 11 14 to customer to the airlines claim change, there's no They know what you're charging for baggage. 15 They know what you're charging for meals. 16 They know what you're charging 17 assignments. 18 for seat But they don't know and there's no 19 transparency there's nothing on your website 20 that 21 reservation more than four times we're going 22 to charge you $100." says, "If you cancel and rebook So that's part of the Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 an Page 51 1 problem. You're trying to change traveler 2 behavior and you haven't told them what that 3 behavior could or should be and when you're 4 going to impose the fees. 5 transparency on it at all. 6 MS. And there's no SINGLETARY: from the U.S. This is Department Lisa 7 Singletary 8 Commerce. 9 find out from the airlines' perspective how do I've got a question. of I'd like to 10 you -- I mean hypothetically travelers are 11 doing this or the TMCs are doing this because 12 I've had this problem with my TMC as well. 13 But 14 they're trying to preserve the reservation. 15 mean 16 reservation for maybe two or three weeks in 17 advance and they need to first define what the 18 airfare 19 reservation. 20 48 hours, I mean what are they supposed to do? 21 22 they're you doing have is a it and but traveler they need that's who's to because I booking book the a If the reservation cancels after MR. CLIFFORD: Clifford with Delta. This is Denny First of all, I think we Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 52 1 need to explain and I can only speak for Delta 2 Airlines. 3 airlines. 4 that, let's say, seat is unavailable. 5 system is automatic. 6 the duplicate booking side of the house. 7 we don't want to cross over issues here. I don't know about the other Delta is not charging for the fact Our And this gets more in So 8 But we're not -- We're trying to 9 change the behavior of violating the booking 10 process, not for that seat. 11 that there's a fee there for the GDS fee that 12 needs to be covered. 13 the 14 dollars on building to keep track of all this 15 stuff. 16 reimbursing the airlines for essentially, not 17 for that seat. 18 up. automation That There's a fee there for that is Now I will admit what we the spent debit memos of are So I just wanted to clear that 19 MS. SINGLETARY: 20 MR. ELLIS: 21 MS. SINGLETARY: 22 millions Hello. Yes, go ahead. I mean I still don't think my question has been answered. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 53 1 MR. ELLIS: 2 has the mic. 3 for you. 4 Okay. Another airline They'll try to answer it better MR. BILLONE: This is Tom Billone, 5 United Airlines. 6 when you mentioned the 48 hours. 7 is the issue right there. 8 not approved within 48 hours? 9 You hit the nail on the head I mean that Why is the booking MS. SINGLETARY: Well, I mean you 10 have processes with an agency. 11 processes in which a traveler has to make the 12 reservation. 13 orders. 14 takes time. 15 They have to You've got obtain travel They have to obtain signatures. MR. BILLONE: It Well, then maybe you 16 ought to change the 48 hours to whatever it's 17 going to take. 18 there's an arbitrary 48 hours in there if you 19 can't meet the 48 hours. 20 almost impossible to meet due to the process 21 you have to go through. 22 maybe somebody ought to talk about changing I mean I don't understand why You're saying it's Well, then I think Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 54 1 that 48 hour 2 another 24 hours to it if that is going to 3 help or whatever it's going to take to help 4 it. 5 time limit to maybe adding That will eliminate all of these 6 debit memos for churning because that to me is 7 the key issue is the amount of time that is 8 required 9 apparently is not enough. 10 11 12 to process it and MS. SINGLETARY: the Okay. 48 hours Who is responsible for mandating that it's 48 hours? Is that something from GSA? 13 MR. ELLIS: 14 FACILITATOR No. BRISTOW: No, 15 believe that's going to be internal to each 16 agency but not the 48 hours through the ETS 17 vendors. 18 MS. SINGLETARY: So if that date I 19 was enlarged that would not be an impact? 20 What would be the impact of -- someone says 48 21 hours -- 72 hours? 22 What is the impact? MR. ELLIS: Jerry Ellis with GSA. Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 55 1 I think we need to -- If we have some of the 2 ETS/DTS vendors here, we need to find out why 3 they put that 48 hour auto-cancel and what was 4 the thought process of that and can that be 5 changed and should it be changed? 6 7 MS. CARLOCK: Ours is not 48 hours. I can speak to this. Ours is 24 hours from 8 the time, as the traveler, I have to sign it. 9 And the reason why we put that in is because 10 the airlines complained that we were holding 11 their inventory. 12 be signed within a certain period of time 13 we're able to give you back your inventory. 14 And so by having it have to When we didn't have it signed what 15 was happening is when we would go in and book 16 it it would hold the inventory and we got 17 complaints about that. 18 the 24 hours for the traveler and then the AO 19 has longer to sign it. 20 that in. 21 22 So that's why we put So that's why we put In order to have it changed we would need to agree then that you want us to Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 56 1 hold your inventory or do you want us to not 2 sign 3 then have the opportunity for us to rebook. it and give you back your inventory and 4 5 6 MR. BILLONE: this. I want to respond to This is Tom Billone at United Airlines. Every time we come into an issue where it 7 said the airlines said this, the airlines said 8 that. 9 we are in consultation with the airlines. When you developed the systems you said 10 Now I can tell you not one airline 11 in this room has ever been consulted about 12 that. 13 in some of these meetings, but no airline has 14 been 15 systems, what needs to go into the system, the 16 rules and regulations that are needed to carry 17 through on the systems. 18 to that. Now there may have been comments made consulted 19 about how to develop these So I take exception Number two, you have -- The main 20 issue that we talk about with holding 21 inventory is time of departure, when people 22 are booking and not ticketing and we're not Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 57 1 able to get that space back. 2 spoiled inventory. 3 We're going to Okay. So that's We are tracking that now. track exactly how many 4 bookings are made and if that booking is not 5 ticketed at the time of 24 hours prior to 6 departure, we're going to track that and let 7 you know what that issue is because you should 8 be ticketing that. 9 10 There are many people that aren't. That was our big issue. If it's holding it 11 another 24 hours or 36 hours, I don't see that 12 it's a problem as long as it's ticketed. 13 it goes back into the inventory that's good. 14 If But what the issue right now is 15 that the travel agencies and TMCs are getting 16 debit memos for something that is generated 17 because in your system generally speaking, 18 ETS, DTS, whatever, the system limitation. 19 And if you could figure out how long does it 20 really take to process that booking and to get 21 an approval and give it a few extra hours then 22 I think you'll be fine. We'll be out. This Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 58 1 issue would be a moot point. 2 But we can't sit here and just 3 argue back and forth it's your fault. 4 the key is how long is it taking to process 5 the 6 because 7 hearing that then somebody has to look at how 8 to change it and fix it so we're not getting 9 every meeting having this come up. booking and obviously 10 if 24 it hours isn't That's isn't because FACILITATOR BRISTOW: enough we're Let me get 11 this straight. 12 could 13 definition if we made changes on the ETS/DTS 14 side if that's what's causing this. 15 correct? continue 16 17 22 move forward with this Is that If the time limit in the system -PARTICIPANT: Can you speak up please? 20 21 to MR. BILLONE: 18 19 What you just said that we MR. ELLIS: microphone. We're getting him the Thank you. MR. BILLONE: Give me the Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 one Page 59 1 microphone they got from the stimulus package. 2 Go to Target again and get a Mr. Microphone. 3 Anyway, what I'm saying is let's 4 look at how long it's taking to process a 5 booking. 6 outside parameters are on that. 7 it like for us? 8 Twenty-four hours to get something done I mean 9 I could Okay. tell Somebody has to know what the You know is We thought it was 48 hours. you from talking to family 10 members who work for the government that's 11 almost an impossibility. 12 MS. CARLOCK: 13 14 15 16 17 18 there. You have two pieces Twenty-four for me to sign it. MR. ELLIS: Wait a minute. If you don't have the microphone you don't talk. MR. BILLONE: get approval. Okay. So I need to So I'm doing a booking. Okay. And I have to sign it saying it's approved or 19 do you have to send it somebody to get it 20 approved and what's that 24 hours? 21 me to finish my booking or for you to say 22 "Yeah, you can go"? Is it for Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 60 1 MS. CARLOCK: DTS has two time 2 limits. I, as the traveler, once I make my 3 authorization, 4 period of time for me to sign it. 5 not signed within that 24 hour period, I will 6 get something that tells me "If you don't sign 7 it this reservation will be canceled." I have 24 hours from that If it is 8 There is another time limit for 9 the AO, the approving official, to sign it. 10 If that AO does not sign it, then there is an 11 action that takes place. 12 separate 13 based on our policy. 14 actions from So there are two a system standpoint However, that's not to say we're 15 not open for discussion to make adjustments to 16 that. But that's what's in place right now. 17 MR. BILLONE: Well, I think the 18 times need to be adjusted. That's my own 19 opinion. 20 if it's going to alleviate this contentious 21 issue of debit memos and churning. 22 look at maybe stretching the time on that. I think everybody else would agree We need to Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 61 1 You know 24 hours for government 2 travel a lot of people are quite busy. 3 don't get a chance to get back in there. 4 knows? 5 interim and they can't get to it. 6 let's look at changing and adjusting the times 7 and I think that will go a long way to solving 8 this issue. 9 They Who They may even be traveling in the MR. CLIFFORD: So I mean Denny 10 Delta. 11 two issues here. 12 seats to be out there hanging. 13 some sense a separate situation, a separate 14 issue, that we need to guard against. 15 I would agree with that. Clifford, There are One is we don't want our But that's in But I'm not so sure that expanding 16 the time frames to, let's say, 72 hours or 17 whatever it may be through the system would 18 cause a major problem. 19 are probably going to hold those seats open 20 anyway for awhile. I I mean those people 21 So guess 22 expanding the time frame. I would look at At least get rid of Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 62 1 the booking problem part of this thing at the 2 onset. 3 inside that's causing a lot of problems. 4 You know, the 24 hours is pretty much FACILITATOR BRISTOW: That being 5 said can we continue to move forward with 6 these definitions? 7 8 (Continuing conference call issues.) 9 MR. COYLE: It's George Coyle, 10 American Airlines. 11 a closer study of the time limits. 12 that would benefit all the carriers to stop 13 any potential churning and with an adjustment 14 there if we can. 15 I would weigh in favor of MR. BRISTOW: We can move on with 16 the definitions. 17 study on adjusting the time limits. 18 I think MR. And move along with a closer COYLE: Correct. And one 19 other statement. 20 I'm really not thrilled about putting language 21 in the agreement that relates to debit memos. 22 But as long As a general observation, as it is targeted just Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 to Page 63 1 churning, I think we're okay. 2 3 4 MR. BRISTOW: To target just government the That was the intent. churning just on rates. 5 MR. BILLONE: Tom Billone, United 6 Airlines. I would go along with this as long 7 as we get a commitment from GSA and ETS and 8 DTS that progress would be made in changing 9 the time limits, which will eliminate this 10 whole issue. 11 the booking systems that need to be fixed 12 also, which relate to the people in the back 13 tier office. 14 And we have other issues with So we'd like to see a whole rework 15 of ETS and DTS because they are the crux of 16 all 17 percent of them, and the debit memos that are 18 being 19 online, 20 causing problems. 21 22 of the notices issued not of because knowing And my overcharge, people what wife are 90 booking they're brought or doing, home travel manual on how to do -- she's with Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 her Page 64 1 Geological Survey -- and I think it was like 2 197 pages long. 3 going to -- a new employee is not going to 4 read a 197-page thing. 5 this big. I mean so somebody is not And the print is about 6 You can't see them. So you've got issues. But I mean 7 some of the things are directly related to the 8 self booking tools that we need to, as an 9 industry, sit down and say how do we fix this? 10 These are the issues that we see, okay, and 11 everything 12 notices of overcharge, which we send out as 13 debit memos to the TMC, is related to how 14 somebody booked something, okay? 15 that And I'm not it's not TMC's 17 traveler and the way the system presents the 18 options to them. 19 would like to carry forward. 21 Delta. 22 expansion It's the So that's another thing we CLIFFORD: We'll of fault. fault. It's MR. airlines' the out about of 16 20 the pointing agree the time to Denny looking frame but Clifford, at on Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 the two Page 65 1 conditions, and this is not just the airlines 2 rolling 3 It's got to be -- call it quid pro quo, call 4 it cooperation, call it whatever. 5 got to be both ways. 6 over and just offering things up. But it's We need a commitment by ETS and 7 DTS to mitigate the current problems. This is 8 irrespective of the timing issues that we're 9 talking about. We want a commitment by ETS 10 and DTS to make some fundamental changes to 11 the software to help resolve the issue. 12 have not heard anything today, and I haven't 13 heard anything in the last six months, that is 14 suggesting that they are going to do that. 15 We Secondly, we want a commitment by 16 the GSA and a concrete plan and proposal by 17 the GSA to get education out there to train 18 people, not fluff, not just saying oh, we're 19 going to train people. We want some concrete 20 evidence going 21 there. 22 that that's to happen out That's the only way we're going to Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. 202-234-4433 Page 66 1 fundamentally resolve this problem through all 2 those mechanisms. 3 one, expanding the time frames. 4 agreement with that if we don't have input 5 from the GSA about the education and DTS/ETS 6 about making software changes. 7 8 9 But you can't just have MR. BRISTOW: We're not in Thank you very much. I believe we can get the particular people together to continue that discussion along the 10 way in all of those areas, whether or not it 11 is training, ETS, or the City Pair Program, 12 our TSS contracts, or travel agency contracts, 13 we're open to that. 14 Our doors have been open. We've b