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[Music] welcome to the note investor podcast we'll guide you through the ups and downs of note investing and teach you all about the nitty gritty details of the business that other people won't talk about your host dan deppen is a former aerospace engineer and product manager who transitioned away from cubicle life to full-time note investing in 2018. our website is www.fusionnotes.com where you can subscribe to this podcast comment and find links to other information on note investing [Music] hi everyone welcome to the note investor podcast i'm your host dan deppen and today i'm joined by kimberly banks fawcett kimberly how you doing i'm great how are you doing dan good good well thanks so much for joining us here from note investing academy and uh distressed mortgage expo which we can versified now ah i even yeah diversified mortgage like 10 seconds ago i thought i had it and then i it's been diversified i mean it's been i can't get it right either it's been distressed for years um and we took it over because we wanted to expand it a bit um certainly before the coronavirus came around um the mortgage market had changed there wasn't as much distressed product so people have to use more of their skills and why just focus on distressed mortgage skills we wanted to broaden it and make everybody smarter so cool so let me talk a little bit more about what that is and what you have scheduled like i don't know if you have dates planned out i know things are sort of it's kind of hard to schedule events right at the moment but we're shooting for uh the first week in october um and the we first weekend we would love to have it in nashville that's our goal um great city to have an event in and you know there are other note events out there and no one ever has it any place as fun as nashville um unless of course you decide to take it to an island and not that many people can show up then people would have a hard time getting there yeah and everybody goes oh the tax breaks you could just make it a vacation but no one actually ever does it so um we figure nashville we can get people there and i've done a ton of research on how great nashville is for people that don't like country music so i'll be using that in my advertising um what we want to do is we want to have new known investors and we want to have experienced new investors and we want to be able to bridge the gap and add value for both types of investors um to help out the newbies we're going to do a 101 class the night before the event kicks off where we'll make sure that everybody understands the general concepts um they certainly won't be dangerous enough to go out and start buying notes but they'll understand what's going on at the event it's you go to those events to learn but if you haven't covered all the basics you're gonna miss things so we want to make sure that even the newest people will understand what's going on and then we're going to kick it off with a state of the market address with so much going on who knows where the market is right now um and i think that'll help solidify everybody's understanding of the opportunity that's coming um whether it's going to be a huge tidal wave like some people are predicting and hoping or whether it's going to be you know there's some more lower value distressed product but everything else is pretty much business as usual it could run the gambit and it'll be great to have everybody on the same page and then we'll go from there with other topics that seem to make sense um at that time so yeah and i think that timing might be good because right now like my perception is there's a lot of uncertainty and that's you know i'm having a hard time trying to predict where things are gonna be in six months but by the october time frame we should at least have a better idea what direction things are gonna head and i think if it turns out to be true that sunlight uh kills some of it maybe if we do have a second wave it'll be after the summer so things won't have gotten really bad but again you know we can't we can't predict the economy we really can't predict what's happening in the vibe with the virus so yeah i guess worst case you could take it online right if you had to yeah because it'll still be valuable information i mean you know you don't get the same networking from an online event but right different little tricks you can try um zoom has this great feature i don't know if you've ever used it uh yourself or in some kind of meeting but you can have breakout rooms on zoom no i haven't i posted webinars on zoom but that's as fancy as i've gotten with it you can have little breakout groups and you can you know as the moderator you can jump from group to group and see how they're doing and so you can do all kinds of things online now um wouldn't be our first choice but it would still be a good event anyway so yeah that'd be good either way yeah hopefully we can all meet up face to face and that'll be nice too if you can kind of bridge the gap between the people who are brand new and then the people who are more experienced like because i've gone to some events that were kind of catered to newbies and that's fine but i end up not listening to any of the content and just talking to people and then i've been at other things like i am in which are like really great they're pretty high level but if you're brand new there's yeah wouldn't get much yeah i think we'll be polling people like you like what would you know you've been to all the new events you know what you're doing what would you like to see it at an event um because i think sometimes imn might be a little too high for some people um like i went there i think it was the first i am and i went to i was in dana point and the the guy that was up there talking about the economy was fascinating and he was from one of the federal reserve banks i'm not sure uh-huh but i did the thing that i have seen people do and made fun of them all my life i like chased him out of the room when he got off the stage yeah and i asked him i'm like okay who's my best data source because i agree with you i gotta look at emerging markets and see what's changing or whatever and he goes well i can't tell you that why well i'm a government official it would be like making a recommendation why are you here that's funny i can't all right then it's very strange so it it's not as much hands-on stuff i think it's very interesting and it's wonderful to get in the heads of the really senior people um you know the people with the two billion dollar portfolios it's great to listen to them but i don't come away with that much actionable stuff yeah yes but not actionable stuff for lack of a better word yeah i had kind of a similar thing for my men i mean i came away with a few tapes and a few good contacts but yeah some of the stuff it was fairly limited yeah what you could do but yeah hopefully you can host it live and everybody can meet up face to face because you probably don't know i think the first time we met at note expo a few years ago you know that's when i was kind of getting into notes and i was like well before i dive into this i kind of want to meet all these characters and see what's going on and actually like you i had a list of people beforehand actually you were one of the people on the list that i tracked down yeah yeah yeah they're not good to be on but that was a good one no that was definitely a good list so yes folks like you and you know david putz and some others yeah yeah some people we see in facebook talking about it you know yeah um so how long have you been doing notes i think you've been at it quite a while real estate investing uh three months out of college so and i'm not going to tell you what year that is but it was a while ago um but i think as a as a landlord eventually you get really tired of fixing things and listening to tenant complaints i had this one tenant one time in a duplex we had here outside dallas every single time we left town to go on vacation she had a problem i don't know how she like it's like she had a locator on the car to notice we've driven more than 30 minutes up gonna have to call you it just it gets old after a while so i was at a big ria event and you know you go to all the different meetings and see what people have to talk about and find new ways to do what you're doing better and all that and i went to my first notes presentation and the idea that i could get the same checks every month and never get any of those stupid phone calls i locked myself out again was a light bulb moment um and i never turned back so that was 2012-ish and i have loved it ever since so that was probably a pretty good time to get started right i mean oh yeah um yeah it was good but i don't think those of us getting started around the time realized how good it was um if i could go back and buy more sooner that would be great um yeah that's always how it is what is that expression the best thing that i no the best time to get started would have been yesterday but the next best is today well yeah that would have been a great yesterday so no my first notes that i bought i actually got it forty percent of um you know fair market value as of course i ever paid on a first and it was pretty and i'd love to go back and buy some more yeah that would always be nice but you never know at the time it's like with me in in sports and golf if i knew what i know now if i could go back like to the 90s and some of those other tournaments i could have done a lot more yeah now it's a lot tougher everybody's stepped things up it always gets harder as you go it seems like i agree in most things most good things at least yeah for sure so so now what have you been doing lately with you know ever since the coved craziness are you still buying things or are you well i have this problem um i always look at the tapes that i get i always want to see what's in there and i always want to check them out um but you know prices are still a little high now from the seller's perspective buyers realize there's changes coming those you know there are no guaranteed exits at this point this could be a fantastic performer and tomorrow they ask for a foreground plan and they're not going to pay for a year so there's a lot of discord between buyers and sellers trying to come up with a price so i'm really not buying much right now um you know storing up some cash getting ready hopefully for some new inventory um it's going to be interesting to watch i don't want to say fun because there are a lot of people suffering out there and right i don't take pleasure you know i don't bet against the economy um but as we all know some people are gonna make money from this and if that's true why not be me and why not put me in a position where i can actually help people that are suffering so that's one of the reasons why i like known investing so much i mean it's very rare that you can make money and help people out so yeah i mean i've had so many like good conversations with borrowers but like i bought more than one note where it had just been lost in the shuffle at a bigger fund and the borrower like had been wanting to work things out but couldn't talk to anybody and they were so thankful just to do it and so i've had those flipped from like non-performer to reperformer like overnight and the borrower is really happy oh yeah it doesn't happen every time but it's happened a lot and yeah it's kind of nice yeah definitely i had um one note it was a second so i didn't pay much money for it um but the gentleman it wasn't just that it got lost in the shuffle it kept getting sold over and over and over again um and by the time i got it he as soon as fci sent out the hello letter he was on the phone um so he was very excited to get help it was the last thing that he had to take care of in his divorce oh they did a short sale and paid me off and he was happy as a clam to be rid of her so i helped him out he was very happy not on a monthly basis but he was just ready to be done with it so yeah that's always nice yeah you never know what you're gonna get when you buy a loan and it comes over they're like easter eggs yep i that's one of the things why i think note investing is a little bit addictive like what'll this one be um and i think if you can keep that mentality then when things go badly you don't want to hurt anybody um if you can still see the fun in it when you're like ugh bankruptcy really again that's a good place to be with your note investing i've gotten almost numb to like good and bad news and i don't know if that's really great or not but i think of it as like you know it's like shoots or ladders but yeah i'll have sometimes where there's some bad some good surprise where some borrower makes a payment it's like oh there's a thousand dollars that came out of nowhere yay and then i have other ones where something else happens that's bad and you know some money disappears and i'm just kind of like ah all right so uh i think that's okay i think that's probably very same um i think you get into a problem where you have a difficult borrower and you just keep fighting them because you're not going to get the best of me kind of thing and you i mean you could spend a ton of money in legal fees on a property that's worth nothing just because you didn't let that borrower win i think that's when you get in trouble yeah that's a losing game sometimes on some of the facebook boards i see new note investors who maybe have their new note get like really frustrated over something that in reality like yeah that that shouldn't happen you know you're right you're right to be not happy but part of me thinks man you better let that roll off because otherwise you're gonna have there are 20 other bad things lurking yeah that's the tip of the iceberg i haven't figured out a way a good way of being supportive yes it's annoying but put it in perspective without sounding like i'm trying to rain on their parade yeah i haven't cracked that code either and and i end up just not commenting because i kind of want to tell them give them a heads up like hey this really isn't that bad there's more coming but i don't know how to do it yeah in a way that i'm not going to come off like a jerk yeah yeah so i end up just i do not say that when someone goes in and says what i wanted to say it's uh it just makes my day there was a i don't know if you saw it today there was a post in one of the facebook groups this gentleman was talking about he found a tape with 60 loans ish somewhere around there he was brand new never bought a note before planning on buying this tape they wanted 75 percent of value of the house for the whole pool okay some of the notes hadn't been paying for 10 years and he wondered a what would be a really good price to offer and b how does he find a jv partner who knows how to manage notes to work with him you can imagine the responses he got yeah and he just didn't seem to want to believe it he was like wow you guys are really raining on my parade no we're telling you the truth there's a reason why that note hasn't paid for 10 years and it's probably not going to be in your favor yeah yeah because usually on those forums or you know you go in bigger pockets people usually aren't raining on parades too much even if they see nate like if anything i would say people tend to be overly rosy yeah things because like you know when i started notes like i would run into some problems here and there and i'm like man i've never heard anybody talk about this before and then you get on the phone and people you know and they're like oh yeah i've seen that that's yeah yeah not unusual at all so well a couple of years ago i guess it was 2017 that's when we started node investing academy um did that for two reasons one um well three reasons actually one we didn't think many of the education options were thorough enough like they teach you how to get into a note but not what to do once you were there right second they were all ridiculously expensive like who needs to pay 25 000 to join a program i mean that's as much as you might spend on your first note so we didn't want to do that but thirdly there there weren't many people talking about the bad things that can happen um and not from a complaini g whining always my life terrible perspective but just to let you know what what note investing really is like um so the first round of videos that we put together for our program each one of us did two or three case studies uh one that was this was just fantastic one that was you know average every day no i mean everything was okay i made a little money it was good and then one that just went to hell uh because we wanted to show people that i mean it's not all rosy um it can be very profitable and i personally think it's a heck of a lot of fun and i like being able to help people but if i i couldn't with a straight face tell you that it's easy and that it's easy all the time it just is what it is so yeah it's definitely not so so yeah maybe talk a little bit more about how note investing academy works because one of the questions people ask me all the time is like how do i get started what do i do and you know they ask you about books and there's some good information in books but they only go so far they i haven't really come across a book that takes somebody all the way buying things and as you said a lot of the training programs are very expensive and so i've been kind of confused on where to send folks so we put together currently there are over 100 videos there um which some people actually find overwhelming so i'm sometimes a little hesitant to tell them how many there are and we start from a two-minute video on what a note is and go all the way to i think my the two i did a bankruptcy video and i had so much information i had to break it into two videos because no one would have sat through that so there's about two hours and 15 minutes on bankruptcy so i mean all different length videos um and we divided into modules for when you would need to know things like how to understand what's going on how to set up your business then how to find notes then um you know who needs to be on your team to help you work them out and then a big section on what can go wrong like what bankruptcy or a contested foreclosure or all the different things because like like i was saying earlier everybody's painting the rosy picture they're not giving you the how-to's when things get hard so that's what we wanted to include every month everything all of that is online um and you can go in any order you want if you're brand new i would go one by one but um if you have some experience you might want to jump in right in the middle um and then every month we do a webinar on whatever it could be something that's going on in the market we could be interviewing someone um we have a book club so uh once a quarter we've all read a book together um it's usually not a note investing book it's more of a mindset uh business practices kind of book uh this quarter we're doing atomic habits um that's a good one yeah that might be my favorite business book i love that one um he also was one of the few authors that if you get on his mailing list what he sends you is pretty good and he's not trying to continue i i need to get on that then yeah because i haven't gotten on his mailing list yes he i i'm a big fan um so that adds to the content that we have on the site um and then we have a private facebook group where we sort of support each other if everybody has questions there's either you know either liz and i answer them or someone else in the in the course answers them um yeah so that's basically our program we we're really enjoying being able to help people out without like i said taking all the money that they would have used on their first note from them to do it yeah because that's a little harsh unless you have just an insane amount of capital to deploy and really once you get into it it's maybe not for everybody so they don't know going in you don't want to plunk down tens of thousands of dollars and then find out that it's not really my question i prefer to do something else so that's also inexpensive enough that if you wanted to invest in note funds and you wanted to have someone else managing your money um you'd know what was going on yeah it would be benefit beneficial to someone like that um so especially if you were doing jv relationships when you're you know you're much closer to each individual asset you would want to know how this guy is running your money right so you can ask the right questions and yeah yeah make sure they're doing things right so where do people find that i'll put it in the show notes but just on note investing noteinvestingacademy.com cool yeah yeah so this next question too is whether there's a title wave of notes coming or not so i know it's unclear at this point like nobody knows but i'm curious what what some of the likely scenarios are as we get like six months 12 months out well it's interesting because people are really trying to predict now and we don't have the information yet on how things have changed like it feels like we've been trapped in the house for the last year but we really haven't um so when people talk about you know uh there was only a three percent increase in people that didn't pay their mortgage in march well so what i mean we didn't shut down until the end of march so they had a whole they probably paid their mortgages at the beginning of the month that that's not an indicator um i don't even know that april will be an indicator because i i don't know that everybody's businesses you know the businesses that did shut down i don't know if they had shut it shut down yet so it's hard to predict um what i would recommend to everybody is as many webinars that you can fit in um about people's predictions on what's coming listen to them all i mean you'll hear things that that conflict and you'll hear things that just don't resonate right with you um and that's your indicator that they might know what they're talking about but everybody has um different takeaways and different things that that stick in their mind for example the thing that i'm really confused about is uh the federal reserve rate banks put in a threshold of the amount of money no i'm sorry the fed put it in uh like in the 1800s and what it was to do was you had to have enough cash on hand so there was no run on the bank if anybody's ever seen it's a wonderful life that's a run on the bank your bank doesn't even have to be in trouble but if they never keep as much cash as they have deposited they have it invested but they don't have it on location if everybody came in on an average day there would be a run on the bank and it would be a nightmare well that actually happened in manhattan a few weeks ago when they were they cleaned out the atms they had so many large cath withdrawals they ran out of hundreds now the bank itself was fine but as far as like the cash they had and like a downtown manhattan location so which is yeah rocky yeah that doesn't that doesn't bode well excuse me i gotta go raid the atm it's just weird um but so it started out to keep so we would avoid runs on the bank but then it became like a monetary control tool for them so when the economy was heating up that's when they would drop reserve rates so more people would banks would be able to loan more and more people could take out money and contribute to the expansion start businesses buy things whatever then if the economy was contracting and things were getting worse they would raise the rate both to make the banks safer the more you have on hands the stronger you are as an organization but also to slow people down a bit you know if inflation is really going crazy you want people to stop spending so much well right now they've lowered the reserve rate to zero which you're supposed to do in an expansion but we now have 30 million people unemployed it just doesn't it doesn't fit and there are a lot of little pockets of uh typical indicators or strategies that the government uses to help with the economy that just don't make sense yeah the whole traditional like macro economics keynesian stuff that i learned like all those little simple equations yeah don't seem to work any more like i know um you know the last financial crisis you know they lowered rates and they did a lot of stimulus think they increased the money supply dramatically which should have caused inflation and it didn't like not at all yeah you know now we're printing even more money and it seems like okay at some point inflation's going to kick in but where is that threshold and i have no no clearly last time i thought we would have hit it we didn't this is hard so this is one of the things i i don't even have a prediction on this on what's going to happen i'm just kind of curious to see how it i agree because it's not playing by the rules that i learned in college so some people are comparing it to the great depression which i think is a bad comparison because in the great depression all industry stopped the only thing that really saved us was when they did government work programs and put everybody back to work that way well currently everybody went online how much of business stopped working versus just stopped being in person so how's that going to buffer the economy sure there was a huge chunk of businesses that that folded that won't be able to open again and people are unemployed but there's so many people still functioning almost as if it's normal and then there's grocery stores and uh clorox manufacturers and shippers who are stressed out beyond belief doing so much more business than usual yeah overall does that affect the the economy yeah there's really no precedent for this i don't think you can look back at another recession or depression to draw comparisons because this is so unique um something that i heard yesterday when i was listening to um a mortgage summit i can't remember what the name of it was but they pointed out that the 2008 crash um we can't even compare to that because that was caused by the financial markets screwing up whereas this is hitting the financial markets but they had nothing to do with it healthcare so their reactions and their ability to help and where problems are it's different i mean they can actually help at this point rather than just be like oh sorry we screwed up uh so i mean i don't know what you compare it to but i was listening to a webinar today that adam data was doing um some really good stuff and i like the way that they pointed it out what they do data data what they did is they just picked three indicators and let's see how this you know these have always been important indicators in the in the um housing market let's see what's going on so they focused on affordability and current rate of foreclosures and uh job job loss um and then they compared all the different counties and they came up with 50 counties that are in trouble that they're worried about and pretty much well the west did best which is remarkable to me because nothing is affordable in the west i mean try to buy a house california yeah but they for some reason in that pocket in the country they have more equity in their house so they will not say california is okay this time because i know they got hit hard last time yeah but they will be okay now because in general they have more equity in their houses so they're not going to become underwater very quickly okay however the northeast is terrible and i do think that has something to do with um how many cases you have as well i mean so many people are sick in the new york new jersey area right quite as rampant in california but in the northeast um of the 50 counties they said 18 of them were from the northeast and in new jersey specifically they said the enti almost the entire state hit their um at risk list because there's already a high flow of um foreclosures it's not affordable that is an incredibly expensive place to live and currently 25 of the population in new jersey is already under underwater on their mortgages they all get sick they're all not working that new jersey's really gonna be hit hard so i think we're gonna have pockets like here's okay here is dreadful here well we'll see how that one's going so i mean in 2008 it was the whole market that was a problem now it's going to be different places did they talk about how what how they expect florida to be this time around they did not mention florida um not specifically but they did say the south which they were including florida in um doesn't look particularly in a particularly bad situation and they also had i think it was 20 markets that they were talking about um they had the least risk and the south had eight counties on that list so i mean that's a pretty good showing yeah so they they made their biggest contrast between the northeast and california that's what they focused on most um because the midwest and the south sort of came in together in the middle exactly and that's interesting as a note investor because if a lot of things go haywire in new york and new jersey those are hard states to operate in i've never worked there so it seems kind of maybe some opportunities but more for specialists who are specialists yes if you can handle the uh length of your time and the seemingly archaic court systems and all of that you could clean up in new york and new jersey it's just the pain that you're comfortable with um i have found you know i've had a couple in new york i've had a couple in new jersey and i had a couple in chicago and i figured okay you know i'm smart i figure things out i you know i can take a lot more stress than most people can i'll be fine oh my god those three questions new york and new jersey not so much they were frustrating but chicago made me want to shoot someone like no it is cook county is as bad as everyone has always said cook county is yeah i've always stayed away from it because i heard so many warnings i never did my toe i mean i believe them i have a tendency to be like oh come on if it's hard i'm sure i can do it i'll prove you wrong oh that that was a time when that did not work for me yeah i i had a hard time in muncie indiana so i should probably stay out of chicago and yeah probably um but you know another thing that they talked about in that webinar which i thought was cool was talking about the leading and the lagging indicators to help people that are paying attention to the data figure out what they need to care about so foreclosure rates they were talking about that's a lagging indicator and it's currently um all of the data is skewed because recording counties have closed so they're not recording anything so there could be hundreds of thousands of foreclosures that no one knows about yeah i've got some that are waiting exactly for the courts that are waiting yes so it doesn't show up in the data it doesn't show up anywhere in the data um and then on the flip side uh some people obviously pay attention how are real estate agents doing are they selling a lot of things are they not selling a lot of things well they pay for their annual dues in january so if every real estate agent in the country stopped working you would have no idea because they're still all registered so you pay attention to the systems that they use in their business and see if those businesses are doing okay so the he pointed out the companies that support the real estate agents just do a huge volume really cheap price you know those we'll list you for one percent kind of things check out this is big because they're going to be the first ones that tank and then he also pointed to um the businesses that support the really high producing real estate agents they get all those extra benefits and the meat bonuses and all that and if those companies are doing really well then the market is shifting so that the people who really really produce are taking over a bigger section of the market so right i just thought that that was a really interesting way of uh figuring out what's going on until we have the actual numbers you know until everything's 20 20. you know oh yeah or two i meant clear yeah because to your earlier point right we're not that far into this you know it's maybe two months this is going to take a long time yeah like i don't even think honestly uh payment data for april is going to matter much i mean march but how is that as bad as we're going to get is that not true i have no id a i've been watching my portfolio closely at the end of every month it was like march no impact but it was just starting yep and then april was surprisingly good as well but i have to believe with the unemployment rate and everything shut down because a lot of my borrowers are you know borrowers that tend to do you know hourly jobs and a lot of those are going to be closed that impact has to show up so i don't know if it's going to be may or june i'm just kind of waiting for that to happen but i surprisingly haven't seen it this is uh may 7th we're recording this we'll come out in a couple weeks later but yeah i've been really surprised i haven't seen more impact today but i assume it's coming and they were one of the other points that they made was there are a ton of people that went and asked for a forbearance plan because they think they're going to have a problem so it's not even the people that are actually having a problem yeah my favorite i i got an email from a borrower's attorney this week so this thing was way delinquent and i started foreclosure and then his attorney said hey is there something we can work out and so i made a proposal and then you know it took him like a month to get back because the attorney couldn't get a hold of his borrower and he goes well you know it's there's everything going on with covet it must be coveted i'm like no this dude has been a mess way before a covid like i don't yeah i i don't think so in that case unless there's something they could show specifically like i did have one borrower um asked to defer two payments to the rear alone but she sent in a letter from her manager at the restaurant where she works that said hey we're shut down and so i actually texted her back right away and said yeah no problem you know that makes sense yeah um but some of these other ones yeah i'm sure there would be a lot of people that in some cases something like 30 of people that requested a forbearance plan still made their march and no either march and april mortgage payments yeah so a lot of people that are just trying to protect themselves and then you have i have this one borrower that he's just you know some of you just have to hold their hand and you have to listen to them complain and whatever he said that he needed a forbearance plan because of the virus because his son turned 18 and now his wife doesn't get social security for him anymore i think the fact that your son turned 18 this year was caused by something that happened a lot longer huh yeah so well and actually what's interesting is my servicer said well you don't have to give him a forbearance plan because it's not covert related well first of all yes the federally backed loans have to give forbearance plans but you try to explain to a borrower that watches the news why their mortgage doesn't qualify as personal people and why would you want to create that drama this guy's a whiner so all i need is to tell him no and he has an attorney and then he like it just snowballs when it just doesn't need to what he wanted to do was for the next three months he wants to pay make half payments and still wants to pay me i just thought it was so ridiculous when my servicer was like hey you tell him no sure good plan yeah one of my favorite is when barbers get angry at the um delinquent taxes that they owe i had one of those recently it was like well the tax bill shouldn't have been that high and it was like no i stroked a check for 3 700 to keep it from going to tax sale you're unhappy i wrote a check for thirty seven hundred bucks don't get mad and roll it into the balance you know yeah yeah it's like you set the tax rates and and you do all the bookkeeping for the county so it couldn't you know you would know if it was wrong it's just ridiculous exactly well well that's probably a pretty good stopping point but uh now thanks so much kimberly for coming on really appreciate it and then i'll put links to the note investing academy and then the diversified mortgage expo notes great and everything and any other ways people can get a hold of you or that you wanna i'm always on facebook um yeah and i use all three names kimberly banks faucet so okay you fine so well thank you very much for having me on this was fun it's always fun to talk to you and uh i hope you and the whole audience stay safe and healthy and all that stuff yeah you as well well thanks a lot we'll see you next time take care