Digital Signature Lawfulness for Animal Science in European Union

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will start shortly the proceeding will start shortly the proceeding will start shortly the proceeding will start shortly the proceeding will start shortly the proceeding will start shortly the proceed order order good afternoon ladies and gentlemen Carrie McCarthy to move the motion you servo J so genuine pleasure to see you in the chair because I know how committed you've been to the issues of animal welfare over many years in Parliament now and I'm sure that if you weren't in the chair you'd be speaking in favor of this petition if that's not slightly presumptuous of me and there is widespread support for bringing recognition of animal sentience as enshrined in article 13 of the lisbon treaty into UK law more than 100,000 people I think nearly a hundred and four thousand people signed the petition that's brought us here today and forty-three organizations are back in the better deal for animals campaign and what to say from the start I've only just joined the petitions committee this is the first petition I am speaking in favor of but it's a real privilege to be able to move this this petition because it is something we've been pushing for for such a long time and I have taken part in petitions committees debates before just as a as a backbencher when I've been slightly frustrated that perhaps the person moving the petition hasn't seemed to be fully on board with the sentiments behind it but I can assure the petitioners that I am very much in agreement with what is being asked for today I will come on later to why the sentiment behind the petition is so important for a moment I want to retrace the journey that has led us to be in here today it was back in November 2017 so well over two years ago that I added my name to an amendment to the European with union with rural bill by the Honourable member for Brighton Pavilion new Clause 32 that bill called for the EU protocol on animal sentience as set out in the lisbon treaty to be recognised in domestic law post brexit the government for some reason didn't want to accept that amendment there were various reasons given at the time but in the face of a mass email campaign from the public and those of us that were in the house back then will remember it really was a massive campaign and vocal support from the the charities and NGOs the government clearly had to do something and so it made a promise to like separately and the draught animal welfare sentencing and recognition of sentience bill all three clauses of it was published in December 2017 and put out for consultation and is fair to say that sentence provision which was only one clause was flawed as we heard when we took evidence about it on the f for a select committee the consultation closed at the end of January 2018 but it was not until August 2018 the Defra got round to publish in the outcome the only excuse I've heard for the delay was that the Department had been absolutely overwhelmed by the scale of the public response so that was August 2018 and then nothing when questioned about the lack of action one Minister told me that the department wanted to legislate on sentience and of course we heard all the usual things about lack of parliamentary time but again those of us that were in the last Parliament knows there was an awful lot of time where we were sitting around doing very little at all and it would have been pretty easy to get a very short bill through Parliament but the minister did say to me at one point that the department was looking for a suitable vehicle to bring it forward and so I provided one in April 2019 with help from animal welfare organisations I tabled a ten-minute rule bill hoping it would spur the government into action but it didn't well I have heard actually that a draft bill was in fact produced in july 2019 has circulated across government departments i've heard too that it's been shown to animal welfare campaign groups I've got some inkling of what might be in it but I haven't actually seen it myself still progress of some sort but since then since july 2019 when this mysterious bill was perhaps put into circulation we've had to Queen's speeches in October and in December and there was no mention of the bill in either of those and despite the government's assurances way back in November 2017 that they would legislate before grexit we have now left the EU with no legislation in place indeed the animal sentience provision is one of the only provisions that was not carried over and incorporated into UK legislation when we left the EU on 31st of January 2020 and this measure needs to be in place by 1st of January 2021 so clearly we are starting to run out of time if we do not legislate for this now there are a number of risks for example the imports of low welfare animal products could be permitted under new trade deals that's something that the minister and I and others have under the the Shadow Minister here have thrashed out in some detail in the agriculture bill and some of us actually for the second time during the agriculture bill but it's an important issue as far as animal sentience goes another issue would be that developers may not have to consider the impact of new roads housing or major infrastructure projects on wildlife in the area that the UK could through its overseas aid or trade programs invest in the kind of intensive farming systems that are not allowed in the UK because of animal welfare concerns and then it would be more difficult to take action against inhumane wildlife management practices from wildlife crime and I must say Sir Roger I find the government's reluctance to act utterly bewildering the government is very keen to talk about how we have the highest animal welfare standards in in the world this would just simply be a way of underpinning that there is widespread consensus around this issue not just in the house and it is fair to say that if new Clause 30 had been put to a vote back in late 2017 it would have passed most people agree with the then Secretary of State for Defra when he said in October 2018 that animals are a fellow sentient beings they show loyalty and devotion they know pleasure and pain and in a real display of irony before he took up his current post the present secretary of state even chastised the u.s. for their position on this issue saying they displayed a backward resistance to even acknowledging the existence of sentience and farm animals so turning to the bill itself to the extent that I can win but we don't actually have a bill in front of us the duty to pay all due regard to the welfare needs of animals of sentient beings when formulating and implementing their policies should be a positive Duty many of us feel not a negative one that is it shouldn't just be about making sure that no pain is called two animals will no suffering it should be about considering the five freedoms to ensuring they have happy healthy fulfilled lives it should make provision for animal welfare assessments to be perspective not retrospective that is any report Department which might possibly happen with the effort select committee play in a role should be done before policy is made not afterwards it should apply to all policy areas under all sentient animals I've heard reports at the ministry for housing communities and local government is seeking to be excluded from the bill's remit which could mean that the department wouldn't have to for example have Jew regard to matters of animal sentience when given the go-ahead for planning permission for mega farms and I think that's something we would all feel the government should be able to have a say on beyond the concerns about slurry and local environmental impact which you used at the moment to prevent things like the nacht and dairy farm one thing many of us would like to see in the bill is a recognition of sentience for decapod crustacean x' that's crabs and lobsters and kevlar pods that's cuttlefish squid and the extremely intelligent octopus there's campaigns being led by the shellfish network and crustacean compassion on that and the ministers not in I'm sure she's aware of that on that point now I've heard that research on whether these creatures are sentient millions has been put out to tender the closing date for the tender is second of April the research will be carried out May to November and I'd ask the minister why is this tender process been held up for so long because we've been asking for this particular provision to go in the bill ever since it was first mooted and if the research does not conclude till November it means that it will be too late to get wherever the conclusion of that researches into a bill that has to be fir passed before 31st of December this year there also needs to be a power in the bill to create an animal welfare Advisory Commission I understand that the government sort of supports the idea but there is no chance of it being established as an on departmental body instead it would be within Defra and of course that raises concerns that it wouldn't really have the independence it it's also it would need to be avaible to advise all government departments so it's not really just a matter for Defra Scotland has very recently set up its equivalent animal welfare Commission with 12 independent commissioners appointed so why can't the UK government commit to doing likewise to conclude Sir Roger we pride ourselves in this country on our strong record on animal welfare as every member here will know there are few campaigns which fill your post bag we email INBOX like those focused on animal welfare but we cannot be complacent we cannot allow economic pressures to roll our standards back and there are some a minority but a vocal minority who question whether or not this legislation is needed some people want greater licence to ignore animal welfare concerns whether that be so they can cram animals into ever more intensive and industrialized farming systems or so that they can pursue so-called country sports consecutive Tory governments now have repeatedly promised to recognize animal sentience in law they've been given chance after chance to act and to bring forward legislation I believe sir Roger that the time for excuses has passed and the time for action is now considered a petition to 4tt 39 relating to the sentence and welfare of animals John thank you so much oh it's a it's a great pleasure at once again to serve under your under your chairmanship and it's also a great pleasure to follow the Honourable lady because I think that she has made a very valuable speech I believe that the animals are our sentient beings i I fully accept that I fully accept that they feel pain and suffering I also fully accept that they feel pleasure if I remember my own dog for example the the amount of pleasure that we showed to the dog and the dog show to us was it was an indication that they were genuinely sentient beings but I think we also need to see this in the context of the animal welfare standards that we have in the UK and I'm rightly proud of those standards and and what we have achieved in setting them up and I would certainly pay great attention to to to that and and asked the house to do so as well on the point that she raised on law I didn't believe that the inclusion of a of a new clause in the bill or in the in the withdrawal act was the right way of going about this it is always a convenient thing to add more and more to air to to bills and so they become nothing more than then Christmas trees and I think that that was the case here we could have added endless numbers of things or things to it and the reason I say that is because under existing UKaid or animals are already recognized as sentient I think it was the the well I will try and find the reference during their during the course of of the speech but but but I do think that we have already recognized in the law that animals are sentient creatures so I do think that that is something that we should we should really should hang on to as a as a firm belief in terms of the of the trade deals that the the Honorable lady mentions I I'm quite exasperated by by that I'm not sure how much more has to be said or how much more has to be written to say that that that we're not going for cheap trade deals that bring contaminated food into into the UK this came up in a debate in in this chamber last last week I think and the the minister made exactly the same point and indeed as I did that this has been ruled out and it has been ruled out thought for very good reasons so I so I would I would suggest that that we keep on to that but there are a couple of things in the government response that that I would I would also raise the the first is Finn's law and she will know that my right honourable friend has had introduced a a private member's bill that would call the animal welfare service animals bill and I do think that that is a very good indication more of the general thinking as well as of the specific thinking of course in the specific thinking it ensures that service animals such as police dogs and horses are offered greater protection and that of course is extremely value valuable and and it will remove a section of the current law of self-defense often that used by those who want to harm their service animals but I do think it's indicative of a wider appreciation of animals that we show on on this side and there seems to be agreement across the house that that we should show that and it is a very good indication for the future and lastly the the animal welfare sentencing bill which was which was published what was going to increase the the maximum sentences for animal cruelty offenses from six months to five years and I think that that is an appropriate sentence to be applied to those that that create problems fought for animals by sick by by animal cruelty offenses the only question I would raise with the minister though is why since since since some of these things were in were first raised with us in 2018 why enough has not been done in the short term to bring these forward why are we still having a debate like this why haven't why haven't we been presented with actual bills to be able to show our commitment and to make that they make that point plain in debate in the main chamber and I would be very grateful if the minister could respond to that point of course of course thank you and Thank You mr. chairman I should just like to say as the sponsor for the private member's bill that I think he mentioned that will be forthcoming to Parliament on Friday the 12th of June I should I should hope as many members as possible here and across problem will be able to support that well I think the 12th of June will be a real red letter day as a result of mine and will friends bill that that's been brought in and I would urge everyone to support it thank Stephanie people it's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship and it is a pleasure to follow the Honorable gentleman like many members it's unsurprising that I've been inundated with emails and letters from constituents regarding animal sentience we are a nation of animal lovers in the UK nearly half of households have a pet that's approximately 51 pets owned across the country like us animals are sentient beings with feelings and emotions but they can also experience pain and suffering I believe it's crucial the government recognized the sentience of animals placing their welfare at the heart of its policy agenda I am proud to belong to a party that prioritizes the welfare of animals from the hunting act that found fox hunting to the Animal Welfare Act that protected the treatment of domestic animals this month the barnsey brownies collected food and treats to donate to the RSPCA Animal Center their charity badges are well-earned symbols of their compassion and kindness programs such as the RSPCA s generation kindness project help teach these important values to schoolchildren influencing how they treat animals and each other and I'd encourage the government to recognize the importance of these values the National Curriculum should contain within it lessons on how to take care of animals especially wild ones that have been taken from their natural environment and need to be returned safely and unharmed no animal should be forced to ensure unnecessary suffering and those that purposely harm animals for their own enjoyment or simply because they believe the pain of animals is beneath their consideration should be punished appropriately on average the Auris PC a 24-hour cruelty line receives a phone call every 30 seconds and over a thousand reports were made in Barnsley alone in one year I've worked closely with the RSPCA in Barnsley and seen firsthand the work they do especially when I went spend an afternoon with an RSPCA inspector traveling around the local area it is not enough that those convicted of animal cruelty sentences merely receive a slap on the wrist we need tougher sentences now to prevent those who might do harm to innocent creatures all animals should be protected by the same five-year maximum sentence domestic or wild I'm calling on this government to enshrine animal welfare standards in in UK law so the public authorities pay attention to animal welfare needs as sentient beings when creatures were implementing public policy we need legislation that recognized the sentience of animals an acknowledgement of their capacity to feel any commitment to protect them as creatures deserving of respect I congratulate the Honourable member for Brist released on secure not just one debate this afternoon but two debates and it's so good to see so many parliamentarians interested in animal welfare issues because it certainly never used to be the case and I pay tribute to the Honourable member for Bristol East who organized a splendid dinner last week there are no political divides between she and I in terms of our interest in animal welfare measures although unlike her I'm not a vegan but I do think she has done a splendid job in leading these two debates this afternoon now I was very keen to leave the European Union for all sorts of reasons I think our animal welfare legislation is perhaps the best in the world and if I say to my honourable friend the Minister are not going to use my brief contribution as an opportunity to attack the farming community because I do know they have a number of difficult challenges but that isn't going to stop me speaking out in terms of matters regarding animal sentience I am a proud patron like you sir Raja of the conservative Animal Welfare Foundation and I've worked very closely with those pushing to recognize animals as the sentience things that they are animal welfare is undoubtedly increasingly of concern among the general public now we're in the middle of a crisis which is a nightmare it's like the worst sort of science fiction movie ever and if older people are going to be asked to spend more time in their homes I think animals in particular are going to be of enormous importance to them scientists have proven that animals are capable of feeling pain there should be no argument about that animals do suffer fear and as my honourable friend the member for Henry said they experience joy and comfort animals have evolved to give themselves the best possible chance of survival and sentence extends to being able to identify situations which cause harm for example mother hens teaching their chicks which foods are good to eat over the years I've been involved in most animal welfare issues particularly in the campaign to stop the live exports of animals and put an end to the millions of farm animals who are in forced to endure journeys of hundreds of thousands of Mars for slaughter or fattening and I was taken by the fact that my right honourable friend the prime minister in perhaps his first speech said let's promote the welfare of animals that has always been so close to the hearts of the British people and I'm sure his father and partner are a great influence in these matters so I think it's very good to know that the person in charge of our nation at the moment is telling us that he regards us as a very high priority in human practices show a complete disregard for the fact that animals experience the pain stress and suffering of cruel journeys and Roger can I first put on record my register of interest that I'm a trustee of world force well fair would my honourable friend agree that actually the very act of Transportation does cause enormous stress and although unlike him I did not advocate leaving the European Union actually that is one area this could be an advantage and that will enable us to prevent that sort of stress being placed upon animals transported to the continent far better than I could have so I totally agree with her on that issue it's unacceptable that animals are kept in important conditions ignoring the evidence that they suffer and both experience fear and pain it is a matter of urgency that industries such as farming recognized the sentence of animals and I know they that they are trying to recognize that and adjust their practices ingly but perhaps in the second debate I will be able to enlarge upon that now I someone I think it was honourable member for know the the the second honourable member opposite who said that we are nation of animal lovers well we are of that there is no doubt and I think that as colleagues certainly on my side of the house has found people power is talking and influencing our views on this and the general public feel very very strongly about it so although the Animal Welfare Act 2006 acknowledged the animals experience pain and suffering it does not explicitly recognize the term of animal sentience and now that we have left the European Union I think that it should be introduced into legislation although my honourable friend the Minister might possibly argue that it isn't necessary but at the moment I remain to be persuaded a like many parliamentarians we're all delighted to meet Finn the dog for Finn's law part 2 or the animal welfare sentencing bill which increases a maximum sentence for animal cruelty from six months to five years and it was Finn's law that came into force in June 2019 which put in place protections for service animals such as police dogs and horses from violent attacks and it is legislation such as this which give the United Kingdom its proud position of leading the way on animal welfare issues and this is why I do want to see us lead the way in terms of animals sentence being enshrined in law we do sir Roger have a very high standard in this country but if we do not take action to legislate but animal sentence now we are putting this proud record at jeopardy so I am glad that we have left the European Union but saying that I want the United Kingdom to influence the rest of the world in terms of our already existing high standards on animal sentience and the welfare of animals secured by a petition of over 100,000 signatures just as the debate on farm animals immediately after this debate and dead dead as well and I thank the Honourable lady from Bristol East for her comprehensive opening to this debate like probably every member in this room I received a huge number of emails from my constituents in North Ayrshire and Arran about this and I feel as important to give voice to their concerns since I was first elected in 2015 I cannot recall any animal welfare debate in which I did not participate from straightforward debates about animal welfare - puppy farming microchip in cats and bans on ivory sales the fur trade the list is endless but these matters are hugely concerning to those we represent and these debates matter to them and as we've helped today animal sentience is a self-evident truth and that's the case for all living creatures and of course they feel pain pleasure of distress fear and it's incumbent on anyone with an onus of compassion or empathy to recognize this and act on it but the self-evident truth of animal sentence means that as elected representatives we act on that self-evident truth through legislation to ensure that the welfare of animals is protected to the fullest extent possible and the Scottish Government has been recognized for doing this has recognized that the importance of this and has acted ingly there is some concern and we've have that touched on today there is some concern about a reduction in animal welfare standards below EU common standards in the wake of brexit and I know that the Minister for Hanley was quite irritated that that issue came up again but it doesn't matter if it's inconvenient or edit ating the fact is that that fear persists amongst your constituents and we do well to recognize their fears and address them as best we can and do not spin it I asked the minister I'm hoping the minister will tell us how these concerns are completely unfounded and and try to put to babe the ghost of Claudine wash checking that is very much in the public imagination and it doesn't matter if that fear is real or imagined what matters is that clearly if it persists it needs to be addressed further and I'm hoping the minister will be able to assuage these concerns suitably perhaps she can say it out in a response what commitments her government will specifically make in this area to reassure those who are concerned the animal welfare standards may be sacrificed to whatever extent during trade negotiations of course animal welfare has devolved to the Scottish Parliament and the SNP Scottish government has an excellent record in this area which in a variety of debate some of which I've listed and I have harmed members across this house and across party political lines recognising the SNP work in this area the SNP programme for government a few months ago set out a whole range of commitments to animal welfare new commitments not list commitments to maintain EU animal rate standards as a minimum and that there should be there must be no compromise or diminution on these standards as tea talks proceed with the u.s. that is a genuine concern and I know the m35 benches and ministers me you know raise their eyes to heaven with impatience but these martyrs are extremely important I'm particularly pleased that the SNP Scottish Government is set to increase the maximum penalties for the most serious animal welfare offenses to five years imprisonment and/or unlimited fames as well as making changes to the maximum penalties for various wildlife offenses I will indeed Thank You mr. chairman could I put it the Honourable lady that maybe the SNP government is maybe following my example of leading the way and saying that we actually need to ensure that those who have committed the greatest crimes against animals should be punished to five years and I'm sure you'll correct me if I am wrong and I may well be wrong but I am understanding that this is a new member to the house I very welcome and but I'm sure to his his friends and colleagues but this has been in the pipeline for the Scottish government even before the Honorable gentleman and started his selection process I am sure but I paid tribute having said that I pay tribute to the Honorable gentleman for bringing the important matter forward and for the UK government because of course the SNP measures sadly don't apply across the UK so I'm sure that he will embrace and persuade his party of government to do the right thing in this matter and for that he must be applauded I will indeed and I think the the new member can perhaps be excused because he is very new but we did spend quite a lot of time in the last Parliament debating increase in animal sentences and I want to pay particular tribute to my former colleague the member from red car Anna Turley who it was under the guise of babies law but it was about a bulldog in her constituency had been a poorly treated and videoed while he was being abused so a lot of the work has been done by Anna I'm afraid that the new member may get most of the glory but I don't want Anna to be forgotten I thank the Honorable Lydia for that for that machine there was points and I would just say tune it to the Honorable moment I wouldn't call him a new member because you know we've said that enough but I will say to him that and it I have been calling for maximum penalties for five years I'm sorry yeah maximum peels for five years since I was foster late in 2015 so I've even a wee bit of I hate to start on him and of course we support each other and these efforts because quite simply it is the right thing to do and in the new measures other new measures taken forward by the Scottish government its program for government is there is the issue of slaughterhouses no 80 percent of slaughterhouses in Scotland have CCTV fitted but and despite that and this will become a new measures brought forward in the animal health and welfare Scotland bill this will no be a requirement for all slaughterhouses indeed the first independent animal welfare Commission to be set up will specifically look at how the welfare needs of santan animals are being met and what legislative and non legislative measures can be implemented to improve this we're required and for the issue of animal welfare to proceed on an evidential basis so I don't think there's any dispute mr. chair the animals are sentient beings no one would deny this no one seeks to deny it therefore there is a responsibility on government all governments to recognize this comprehensively in both policy and practice through legislation it is as simple as that and I hope the Minister will seek to match the good work being undertaken by the Scottish Government in this area especially as we negotiate trade deals post breaks it breaks it which is the kind of assumes that she knows her constituents are looking for too late Allan burns I thank you sir Raja I am plenty to be able to speak and to represent the views of more than 150 micro stages of a character Dominic who contacted me to offer their support in this debate anyone who has been in the presence of a cow being separated from his calf as she hurries herself repeatedly at the bio door to try get her where her a baby those feel well that animals are sentient beings from a thousands of videos on Facebook and YouTube Anna was being released from the poetry's for the first time into a space where they can see the sky and feel with the grass under their feet who know the animals will experience joy or who watching an octopus drag ocean ditches to cover itself and hate in full view from a shark hunting her it not to feel or at its intelligence or recognize her desire to live and to protect her young on the 27th of November 2017 the Scottish government recognized that paintings and stated that the Scottish government fully accepts the principle of animal sentience I will take all appropriate action to safeguard animal welfare standards animal sentience has been recognised in Scottish legislation for over a century in keeping with this statement on the 29th of February this year the Scottish Government also created the first independent animal welfare welfare Commission consisting of twelve commission members who will provide ethical and scientific advice to the Scottish government chaired by Professor Kathy Dwyer an eminent professor of animal behavior and welfare the Commission will consider how the welfare needs of sentient animals are being met by devolved policy forceful legislative and not legislative roots to further protect the welfare centre animals and the research required for an evidence base for future policy development the Commission one also specifically said how current policies take account of animal sentience the way the welfare needs of animals and what improvements could be made yet in Westminster the government has yet to incorporate the lisbon treaty article 13 acknowledgement of an animal sentence into law it's quite ironic when the original framework was initiated by United Kingdom when in the role of president we had European Union 1997 the government stated that the gentleness of animals will continue be recognized and protection strengthened when we leave the European Union we have heard on many occasions updated this government's view but no animal saintliness legislation has been forthcoming we welcome the government's commitment to this but yet we wait we are told on the 14th of March 2019 a written response that officials continue to engage with stakeholders the father refine the government's proposals know that we have left the European Union's is even more critical that the government has a very minimum of animal sentence as a keystone value within future policy all existing Imoh welfare laws which have been instigated and passed and House of Commons are in place because we wish to stop animals being subjected to pain therefore we do already recognize animal sentence as you bring that recognition into law it is yes I'm a friend for Bristol East for securing this very important debate during these very trying times as an animal lover and owner myself the contributions from members across the house in this debate are very touching and I would think thank the Honourable member if he would join me in commending the work of a charity and my pattern on the current our friends the animals whales and in particular Eileen Jones for their fantastic work that they're doing in trying to work with the Welsh government against the barbaric puppy farming trade they're also pushing for Lucy's law to be implemented and to protect all dogs from this awful awful treatment and I would just like to pay tribute to them for the fantastic work were they doing the views of the distressed furniture it is my view that we need therefore to refrain the protection of animals in law with regard to the discussion today and anyone who's had a pet and loved them and that relationship that builds up over the years knows that that that creature is sentient and it's very frustrating for me and I hope my own friend would agree that sentence has been described as some unnecessary additional Clause to be added to legislation and ascribed as an ornament on a Christmas tree so does the Honorable gentleman agree with the emanuel friend but that surely sentiment sentience is not an additional ornament it's a central tenant and a fundamental tenant of any legislation and this analogy that it is an ornament is so inaccurate that actually sentience is the tree it's the absolute central component of Scotti of animal welfare and because there's my honourable friend agree that in line with the Scottish animal welfare Commission this should be a central part of policymaking in Westminster as well there are a number of new members present so let me make the point for the benefit of new and old interventions are supposed to be interventions or speeches we've welcomed speeches if anybody wishes to take part in the debate please simply do so by rising in the usual manner but an intervention should be brief alan dodds thank you sir Roger Ida thank general gentleman for his intervention and to keep it very brief I totally agree with his sentiments expressed thank you very much sir Roger the reason why I am here sir Roger is I wanted to talk about my experience of the criminal justice system and how that reflected on society's attitude to animals and how the sentence saying that I experienced was I think an indictment of how we treat animals within the emotional environment I I cannot think of the amount of cases where I have acted where I've sat in interviews with RSPCA who prosecute them in the lower courts and have sat through some of the most harrowing details of animal abuse it is possible to hear I cannot think of the top of my head sir Roger of one occasion where a perpetrator was sent to prison in respect of that these cases very rarely went to the Crown Court because of the sentencing powers that we are talking about and I therefore pay tribute to my right honorable friend I pay tribute to any government who are legislated to support animal welfare but we must increase the punishment that is a within our court system as a reflection that animals are sentient beings that we value them as sentient beings and we must find a way to ensure that sentencing within the criminal justice system acts as a deterrent to people acting in the most appalling manner rather than simply just being eighth I think where most people who are involved in the justice system are able to walk out with it first a community panel say I could stand here sir Roger and I could say how much I love animals I love animals but you don't want to hear that and I know that this government is committed to the highest possible standards of welfare for animals this government will bring forward the measures it thinks are reasonable and propria to achieve those aims I know this is not the minister's portfolio but perhaps if the minister could just comment slightly about any discussion she may have with her colleagues and the Justice Department regarding how we can ensure in terms of guidance to both the courts the prosecution and even the RSPCA who amount those prosecutions to ensure that we have a rigorous attitude to animal prosecutions and that the courts sentence in the most fair but harshest line thank you it's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship and I'm pleased to have the opportunity to somewhat from my party in this important debate I don't think that there can be any MP anywhere who doesn't receive a very large quantity of Correspondence on this subject and rain-free sure is no different and it's interesting that there are large numbers of us here in Westminster Hall considering who Christ is in Westminster today and I think that reflects the fact that people all over the United Kingdom are really focused on this issue I've been very interested in the excellent speeches that we've heard today a man in particular the one from my honourable friend the member for North Ayrshire and Arran who is a tireless advocate for animal welfare him as as the Honourable member for Bristol East who moved the debate in such an excellent and powerful way today taking us all the way through how we got to where we are now and evidently there is a degree of reluctance it's hard to get away from that they despite assurances from the UK government aim on this that we have an issue the animal sentience aim is not being dealt with in the way that so many of us think it should be and that's disappointing there are real risks as we move forward in as we have left the EU animals including wildlife farm animals and and how cream is dealt with - and the Honourable member rate they pointed out who order is that the UK government does speak so positively about animal welfare but yet here we are for me on a personal level it's really important that the SNP have got a strong stance on this issue hey I'm a vegetarian I've been a vegetarian for several decades I'm not a vegan and like the Honourable member who moved the debate but you never know we might get there and it's been increasingly important to me and become more su as with many other people to know the animals are offered appropriate and proper treatment and acknowledgement that they are of course sentient beings and ought to be treated ingly so sir Roger the SNP are absolutely committed to improving animal welfare standards it's really important it's welcomed that this is the case and we're taking action in Scotland this year it has repaired to make sure that this is a continuing to be reflected in legislation it's very positive that the SNP Scottish Government's recently introduced an animal welfare bill it does send a clear message and is an important one the animal Wales animal cruelty and wildlife claim won't be tolerated in Scotland and that animal cruelty and welfare bill does deliver on our promise that the Scottish government meat and it delivers on that commitment to create new legislation to further protect animals and well they can it'd be interesting to hear whether the Minister has an intention to reflect something similar here so just to be clear de Santi an animal is one that can experience feelings such as pain or pleasure we've all seen that in reality we all know what it means we can summon images to our minds when we think about this from loving and beloved family dogs and the Honourable member for him they spoke really impulsively about that horses kicking their heels for joy and the Honourable member for air carry can come next book about a cows and calves and I think that we all know what he's talking about there really can't be any doubt about the principle of the thing surely the Honourable member for him they said he felt that sentence was covered by case law but really you know let's be sure let's have proper clear in dispute regulation rather than relying upon that and the Honourable member for Bristol he spoke about the the repeated promises in this area that the UK government had made but there were still unfulfilled in terms of legislation him and I wonder if the Honourable member for Hindley who was politely dis myself I think about their the issue of welfare standards and trade talks could reflect further on that his assurances are welcome absolutely but again some reassurances needed not just a reputation that we don't need to worry about this as the Honourable member for northeastern Aden explained there is significant concern amongst our constituents and many others aim people who are fearful about the issue of chlorinated washed chicken amongst other things and we need to be able to give people reassurance on these matters as well as on well fear if we look further at the the work of the SNP government and how that ties into this foremost among the the commitments that have been made by the SNP government in Scotland was a commitment to maintaining animal race standards as a minimum and not to compromising on these standards driving trade talks we've heard that again in there to be that these animal welfare standards must not be and we must be clear that they can't be treated away by the UK as the the trade talks begin the Honourable member for I can't read my own writing Sir Roger Southend waste a spoke about the the cross party interest in animal welfare and I think that's right it's important that we acknowledge that and we should be able then surely to find ways to move forward we've heard that the animal health and welfare bill increases the maximum penalties in Scotland which are able to be applied to the most serious offences we've heard that five years imprisonment is a possibility or an unlimited fame and I think that there's an appetite across the room for some other measures here also in terms of the slaughter of livestock we would support that being undertaken as close as possible to the point of production and with fuel regard for animal welfare standards and that that brings me to the this issue of slaughterhouses in Scotland where we've heard that more than eight and ten slaughterhouses in Scotland have already installed CCT coverage CCTV coverage in their premises voluntary basis but we will legislate in Scotland to ensure that that's a requirement for all slaughterhouses my own will Flay and the member for ear Kerry can come next look about the first independent animal welfare Commission which is being brought into police and Scotland and there's going to be cheered by professor Kathleen dryer that commission will specifically the Howey the will fair needs of st. Ian animals are being made possible legislative and legislative routes to further protect the welfare of sentient animals and the research requirements to provide an evidence base for future policy development so these are sensible and structured measures and the member for lewisham pointed out that Scotland had recently done this and quite reasonably asked by the UK government it hasn't done the same and I think that's a reasonable question so I don't think that there can be any doubt about the clear and uncompromising message the animal cruelty and welfare will not be tolerated in Scotland and grateful to the work of the Scottish Rural Affairs Minister Mary gooze on him who has done significant work on this and the Honourable member for buddy North spoke very powerfully about the Nitra consequences for people who do mystery animals and the need for penalties that really de terre people i think that the provisions and the animal and wildlife penalties protections and power scotland bill which was introduced in September 2019 it will be the kind of measures that he is talking about and that includes a and people here are always very positive to hear about this increased penalties for attacks on service animals otherwise known as Finn's law this is something that we hear a great deal about here and quite rightly the Honourable member for barns least sin in the peripheral speech at the beginning brought us I think right down to where we need to be know that this government really needs to pick up on all of these issues and to demonstrate that they are listening they are intending to put measures into place so that we are confident in and able to rely upon these measures and to point them out to our constituents who have such a concern about the welfare of animals Sir Roger I was pleased to hear Christine Campbell who's the chief executive of the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals see that the exciting changes that the Scottish government has made have their potential to be transformational for all animals across the country and I think that that's important because how we deal with our animals says much of it us it's really heartening to hear the level of concern that people have to make sure that we don't let these things slip by that there's proper account taken of the need to ensure proper welfare provisions for animals and I was really struck as I conclude by what the Honourable member for Southend waste said about the the real challenges that we're facing just know and the importance that pets are going to have to so many people as we go forward and reflect upon our a fantastic charity which started in my area a number of years ago called give a dog a bone and an animal a home which ties up elderly and lonely people with pets who also need a home that's the the kind of work that we are going to need a great deal more of now and I hope that people feel able to support organizations like that as we go forward so all of the people who say in the petition that's brought us to the debate today I hope feel that they've had an earring in terms of the issues that they are concerned about and I do hope that the minister will be able to give us some assurances that there are changes of foots and that we will see some kind of regulation going forward thank you Luke okay it's a gives me great pleasure to respond to this very good debate on behalf of the Official Opposition I think there's a real support from cross-party basis for enshrining animal sentience in law and I want to give Labour's full hearted support for that effort it is not only through the powerful speeches that we've heard the advocacy of all those community groups that each of us have in our own constituencies who are campaigning for a 21st century animal welfare laws but also because we know that this will make a difference to those animals both domestic and and and and those using that culture in other sources if put in place correctly and I'd like to thank the man for one more friend for Bristol East who for her unrelenting campaigning in this area she has got a good position on the petitions committee that gives her a new platform for saying this and she will continue to use it with force ferocity and cross-party support for as long as ministers failed to listen to the arguments that she makes and I know that she has made a very good one today I've also like to congratulate the Minister this the first time that I've had the opportunity of being opposite her in her new role I'm a big fan of cross-party working and for most of animal welfare legislation there's actually lots of cross-party support the only thing that holds us back I think is sometimes the ambition to achieve the potential there that cross-party support could deliver and I think in relation to animal sentience in particular there's an opportunity here happy give me way party work in will he please push the minister and nuclear government to please end the barbaric practice of puppy smuggling across the UK which hurts so many domestic pets and families please do that don't fret for ponta prete this raises a really important issue and in fact actually if the minister hasn't yet ready Labour's animal welfare manifesto in the election is very good reading poppy smuggling's point 10 actually in the manifesto it's well worth having a read because poppy smuggling is horrendously cruel on an epic scale and when we think about those tiny little dogs in particular and the cruelty that especially organized crime gangs perpetuate on those animals it is something that there is huge public support for I think so much of this debate here it's also shown why these online petitions are good because the hundred and four thousand people that signed it the forty three organizations that bakit have shown that there is a real public support for animal sentience being enshrined in law as well I want to thank everyone who has clicked on that link gone to their emails try to work out which email they put it on click the confirmation link to make sure that their name can be added to that and I thank them for not only the their petition work in this parliament but the ones in the last Parliament as well because the arguments haven't changed if the faces around the table may have adjusted slightly but actually the scent the importance of animal sentience is is there and we know that this the petition says that we know that EU law recognizes animals as sentient beings aware of their feelings and emotions we know that it was enshrined in the Lisbon Treaty we know that the government chose not to move that piece of EU legislation over when they enacted their brexit legislation we know that there is an outcry at the time and we know that ministers have been dragging their heels ever since then trying to make the case it's not really necessary obviously it's very important but not really necessary well I say to the Minister very clearly that it is necessary it is important and it is something that enjoys cross-party support in terms of doing that and to be fair to the government but when I say the government I regard this is one continuous Conservative government although I know they like to think of themselves as fresh since December the government at the time in 2017 did bring forward a bill they withdrew it in 2018 and yet we still see any signs of this crucial legislation since then but in the intervening years siracha a very prominent and successful conservative backbencher wrote in The Guardian there is currently a cross-party consensus that we should enshrine the recognition of animal sentience in statute and underpin all our existing policies and inform new ones that was of course so much of the brand-new sector estates for the environment writing in his a brief sabbatical from the roles of ministers and it is sort of one of the reasons why I've got a lot of time for the Environment Secretary is that when he was initially freed from the clutches of ministerial office he was able to make a bold and clear case not only for changes in agriculture fishing and animals animal welfare and I hope that now he's found himself thrust back into ministerial office you know in the cabinet no less that that same independent thought that he demonstrated in in the back benches will also come to play in his new role here because in the same article in The Guardian he went on to say one option might be to suggest that the u.s. introduced a similar piece of legislation at federal level to drive the modernization of its own laws we could even send British advisers to Washington to help them do it as part of our trade negotiations now I'm not certain that the u.s. president would take nice take kindly to British trade advisers advising on animal welfare standards but there is something important here and that is that the people we wish to do trade deals with must not undercut our animal welfare standards not in terms of agriculture not in terms of domestic pets not in terms of any elements of the high levels of animal welfare that we enjoyed my happy giving way to the same Guardian article that I meant should the agriculture bill I think it's hard to believe that the current Secretary of State would have ridden for the Guardian twice during his brief period of freedom but does he not go on to say that we should protect animal welfare standards and other standards in future trade deals we should enshrine that in law for example in the agriculture bill I'm grateful for my friend from bris Lisa as she is she's dead right in terms of this actually there is an amazing amount of good political meets in the publications that the Environment Secretary published while he was on the back benches that indeed feels like the opposition doesn't need to remind him of it because actually the officials I'm sure have churned through all that plentiful publications and the amendments that the environment secretary himself tabled to that then agriculture bill that sadly his new batch of ministers voted against very recently but there are things in there that actually take a lot of support and actually in this thing here there is cross-party support from it now I don't think having British diplomats in Washington instructing President Trump to raise his domestic animal welfare standards to get a traitor with the UK would work in that respect but it is important that we maintain those high levels of protections in law so when any negotiations are taking place that those negotiations are taking place on a point where the people we are negotiating with know the strength of feeling not only of the British people but of Parliament itself that we won't accept any lowering of standards nor any undercutting of those standards in any trade deals as well and that is why we need to have this animal sentience legislation implemented and done so before the ends of the implementation period we cannot allow our animal welfare standards to fall behind the --use especially after the plentiful promises from conservative ministers the animal sentience legislation which I hope their Minister will announce when she gets to her feet needs to also apply to all policy areas of sentient animals if an animal is sentient they are sentient no matter how they are being used by humans or where they are living it needs to confer an active duty to respect the sentient on all aspects of governments simply having a function with endeavour is insufficient in to advise the rest of government because as Marmont phone from bristol ii said in her remarks there are other departments for whom actually the importance of animals needs to be reflected in their day-to-day work where they may not as a standard take that on board and that's why having an independent monitor of those is such a good idea furthermore this legislation needs to require the government to publish an annual report detailing how this Duty has been acted upon including policy options considered and what animal welfare impact assessments have been undertaken it also needs to recognize that cephalopods and decker pods crabs and lobsters octopi and squid are sentient animals as well in Labour's animal welfare manifesto again a very good read fill available on the website we make the case that lobsters experience anxiety crabs use tools not to pie have been known to predict the results of football matches that's not quite in the manifesto but the sense the sense of it is that's why in our manifesto we talked about not allowing those precious creatures to be bald alive for instance because we know that if you put a lobster in a boiling pot of a possible that they experience pain as part of that it may be lessened by the experience of it being slowly heated but it's still pain nonetheless and there's ways of doing this in a better way the petition also called for a new body to support the government in their duties for animals which I refer to just briefly ensuring decisions are underpinned by scientific and ethics expertise this has been proposed under a few names indeed the experience of Scotland that was mentioned by the SNP spokesperson and the member for ayer keroh can come knock also spoke about how Scotland has already got there they call it an animal welfare commission either animal welfare Advisory Council in our manifesto we talked about an animal welfare commissioner nonetheless regardless of the names or the precise font their format of it the function is the same to be able to support and critically analyze and advise ministers and government to make the right decisions to make sure the effects are truly understood now my party vey prides itself on being their party for animal welfare at the last election we're the only party to publish a manifesto exclusively on animal rights and in this we set out how we would appoint an independent animal welfare Commission to operate in England and in collaboration with the devolved administration's as well now that the UK is no longer member of the European Food Safety Authority we need to establish a body that is able to advise Defra and all of government independently and to represent the wealth of scientific ethics and animal welfare expertise available in the UK we know that at the moment there's no specific body that's currently under statutory duty to enforce the welfare requirements of Labour's landmark Animal Welfare Act from 2006 that more and more phone from barns that Edith mentioned in her remarks this needs to be placed on a statutory footing and an animal welfare commission that would help achieve this I'd recommend the the Minister cuts and paste that from our manifesto into her work plan as a department because I think if she did it would enjoy the cross-party support that we've seen from the member for Southend and the member for Ponte freethought United in the same effort here they would also be responsible for gathering the latest scientific evidence on animal sentience and animal welfare to ensure the most up-to-date evidence-based understanding across Whitehall and to ensure our nation maintains its top ranking in the animal protection index and working alongside government will assist in the promotion of best practice in animal welfare internationally because although we pride ourselves in legislative framework Britain's care about animal welfare at home and abroad as well you need to see that in the changes that the tourism industry has made to remove animals from summing the products sold to British tourists because it's not something that Brits support now ministers are often found saying how the legislation that has been proposed is world-leading now that we've left the EU but time and time again the evidence doesn't support that highfalutin sound bites the bills that we have that have come out of def or recently on agriculture and the environment have I'm afraid been far too disappointing and that's at a time when many of us including many of the Greenies from across the parties under divided here had high hopes that they really would deliver against that promise that was made for them we can't be animal at world-leading without an animal welfare commissioner we're not even world leading in the UK because Scotland already has an animal welfare Commissioner so England's already lagging behind in relation to that and that matters as well because my little sister's a sheep farmer in Cornwall the animals that she keeps in Cornwall if she were to move north of the border would have a different legislative framework and a different protections and that doesn't quite seem right for the same sheep and I think there is an option to look at that again indeed I would not advocating taking sheep out of the sector estates own County along the way for fear of offending and but actually the importance of those standards across our islands is really important when it comes to animal welfare just before I conclude sahajiya I just want to mention briefly the on them for Henley in his remarks at the start of this speech that he was exasperated by the language around claw rated chicken and indeed I think there many people who are in this place the answer is very simple put it in the bill because that would avoid the ability for ever to be undercut and if the if the Honourable member believes the words of Ministers because they are said so very often and indeed they are then there is no reason for it not to be put in a bill because those words are already on record the thing is I don't believe the ministers when they say that and I think there is an element of building trust in some of these which i think is really important just ask a very simple question what shred of evidence do you did the honorable men that have to back up what he just said well I thank them for very Northport for that I think the difficulty when you sit on opposite benches and your job is to scrutinize rather than to support is that you look for evidence of the words and actually there's a real genuine risk here that standards could be undercut now it's important to make a distinction here because this is frequently lost on interventions and I hope this won't be the case they'll remember that it's not that we think that the government will somehow immediately lower our own standards it is that by allowing trade deals that undercut our standards that permit food-growing to lower animal welfare standards or indifference involved but have a negative environmental impacts then what you're doing is allowing produce in de undercuts our own farmers undercuts our high animal welfare creates an incentive to lower regulatory pressures in the UK or protections as we'd like to see him on this side and that's not something that supported not supported by labor not supported by the SNP not supported indeed by many on his own side nor the nfe and other groups as well so I think there is cross-party elements across party support foot keeping standards high keeping it in law and this is one of those areas where we can I think come together on a cross-party basis to say animal sentience should be in law if it does a simple bill with good scrutiny and indeed the minister knows there's many experts in this house that would happily advise her for free along the way in terms of this because actually we need to get it done and that's important because at the moment far from getting it done it's just getting delayed and I hope the Minister when she comes to her feet will give a boost to all the petitioners or 104,000 of them in nearly every single parliamentary constituency of the country and give them reassurance that this is not only something that's going to enjoy warm words from governments but it's going to have a government action before the end of the implementation period at the end of this year thank you thank you sir roger it really is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship in this important area if there is glory to be shared and I'm I'm not sure that we've reached a point with animal welfare that we're sharing glory yet you should certainly have a part in it as indeed should many of the members who've spoken in today's debate I do reckon know that many of the members here have been involved in this area for a long time and will continue to be involved in this area for a long time and that is to be welcomed I'd like to thank in particularly the petitions committee and its representative in this room for giving us the opportunity to discuss this important subject and indeed the hundred and four thousand people who signed a petition to say that it was important that the house had the debate this afternoon I do want to start by saying that we shou