Digital Signature Legality for Property Inspection Report in Australia

How to eSign a document: digital signature legality for Property Inspection Report in Australia

hi everyone my name is PK and here I have Richie Muir from law lab he is a solicitor or lawyer and in this episode I actually have never had a lawyer or solicitor on my channel before so it's going to be like a new thing we're going to discuss we're going to go over basically all things or the most important things to do with the legal process of how to buy a property so like you know the best Clauses to put into a contract in that sort of special conditions box we're going to talk about different states have different processes like wa there's a I would say much more conservative process than other states so how not to be tripped up there are like some real horror stories about how people like just get the legal process wrong so Richie's gonna take us through like kind of his best advice on how to avoid that and just in general if you're new to property investing you know it's just going to help you I guess overcome those nerves so to speak and and just like be confident in that legal process I always say you know to build a team is really important you need a conveyance or lawyer you need a mortgage broker you need a building and pest inspector you need property managers Etc so obviously Richie as a lawyer as a key aspect of that team so thank you for making time Richie and good to have you here uh thanks very much PK a pleasure to be here well so maybe we'll just take you um take us on a bit of a a background of of like your I don't know your professional history I don't know if this is right but I was just talking you on LinkedIn before I saw you went to qut um if that's true then I won't hold you against it but um well well um well my background um I I was born in Australia but uh grew up in in Europe so Malta England and then Scotland so I went to University Glasgow University of Glasgow um and in my law degree there and then I came back to Australia and did a conversion course at uh qut right essentially topping up a a Scottish law degree with some Australian subjects so that was back in 2006 um so yeah I've been practicing law um in uh in in Queensland and Australia nationally um for the last 15 years or so um and I'm a legal director at law lab now we're a National Property Law Firm um which is quite uh unique in the sense of um there's very few um uh I guess you know uh property lawyers specializing in conveyancing on a national basis so we cover every state and territory in Australia but what do you think that is like this is just like a off the script question like you're kind of unique there's not there's you could probably count on one hand how many national conveyances there are that operate in all states and territories why do you think like well why did you go down that route and like why do many people don't many firms don't do that well it's kind of like dealing with eight different countries um particularly with property law every state and territory has uh you know their own set of property laws and and conveyancing practices so it's not just the laws but it's how each state and territory deal with the practice of conveyancing um and then it's also the delivery of conveyancing as well um you know in some states it's exclusively done by lawyers like Queensland yeah um uh but in other states uh you have both lawyers and conveyancers who Who deliver conveyancing Services um and in other states they call it even something else like in wa they call it settlement agents um and um and often that you know the scope of work um and what what each um Legal Professional can do differs between those States so yeah it's it's um it's difficult to set up uh a conveyancing business that deals with every jurisdiction but yeah it's we've been doing it now on a national basis for well over 10 years um and we've got a big team who specialize in each of those jurisdictions so well it's not easy it's been a it's been a fun journey to get there yeah and also sorry this is a bit of a cheeky question but it's like an honest it's well-meaning like how lawyers even accountants it's like a very on the face of it it's like a very quite unquote boring profession um I'm sure like once you get into the nitty-gritty like in anything you find a lot of Joy I would assume like yeah and what you do is that true or well I don't think anyone's ever said conveyancy and sexy yeah um so but you know it's it's um it's often an underrated part of the the buying process um you know we like to think of it kind of like what we think uh consumers should think of it like like Insurance you know um uh most of the time uh you know the um a transaction will go through smoothly but it's I guess like Insurance you want to have the best insurance but pay a reasonable price you want to be covered in the event of something going wrong so that's you know where we're involved is we we know what to look out for we know the risks we manage the risks for you and you know most of the time uh you know it'll be a straightforward transaction which is great but um you know uh buyers and sellers need to have someone there who can look out for those risks and protect and make sure that that uh you know um you know the buying what they what they mean to buy um and they're protected right right well I remember when I um when I bought my first property this was more than 10 years ago um the conveyancer like navigated me on the contract of sale it was in um New South Wales um to the special conditions box um and they sort of said look this is where you can put in basically anything you want as long as it's like worded appropriately and reasonably and like for me that was like oh like there's not just a standard contract everything can be negotiated from fixtures and fittings to like the you know how healthy that the houses and sort of its structural stability even like when settlement occurs or exceptions that there's like you know you can put I remember that first property I think I like I had like an addendum to that special conditions boxes everything couldn't even fit in there but ever since then I just kept refining that cat refining that and that were for me in part of the conveyancing process for me that special conditions box is like one of the most important things and we'll talk about like the process at a more macro or broader level but just to kind of Zoom right into that special conditions box so to speak or just Clauses in general you know when someone a new property investor or even an experienced property investor is porting in an offer they're giving that contract to the agent you know what are the Clauses or what are some Clauses apart from just the building and Pest and finance that they should be considering at least to to make sure that that deal is is in their favor yeah so you're right um so there's most jurisdictions have a standard form of contract um and that's just to enable you know um the transactions to happen relatively quickly so the real estate institutes or law societies will have a standard form a contract and that will enable a lot of the sales agents to complete that standard form but drafting special conditions requires a legal practitioner so a lawyer will conveyancer can only draft special conditions an agent can use a special conditions book that has been prepared by a lawyer for example and copy paste goes in to contracts um but yeah all contracts fundamentally are negotiable so as a property investor you know you can negotiate whatever terms you want to but there's still Market forces at play here you need to understand um that you know you can't expect that everything you asked for will be agreed um and you've got to consider well what competition are you up against are there other buyers who are interested um sell an agent more likely to accept a more vanilla offer you know from another buyer than a really complicated offer from from you know from one buyer so you need to bear that in mind but some of the fundamental uh special conditions you would use if you need to and there's no point in using special editions for the sake of it you use them when you need to but um so it may depend on the transaction type or property type if you're buying existing property um one of the big things I always say is well have there been any Works done to that property since it was originally built has it been an extension um has there been a carport constructed of a goal or a large shed something like that and if it has do you know if that's been approved and you know if they've had the final certificates and and a lot of the time you can only get that information from the council um so and that can take time and you may not have time to find that out before you go to contract so therefore a due diligence special condition is very useful in that regard and due diligence usually will give the buyer 14 or 21 days to undertake due diligence investigations about the property um and if they're not satisfied for any reason with the results of those investigations they can pull out of the contract and get their deposit back so um that that's that's a very good condition to use the property investor it gives you a it's kind of a jail free card yeah um and can extend to pretty much everything um but of course you know Sellers and agents will understand that that you know and they want the contract to go unconditional as soon as possible so if you do if a problem investor does get any pushback with the due diligence special condition they might want to refine that um and based on what concerns they might have so in that example before if they thought that there'd be an extension they weren't sure about the approval or whether it had been constructed in ance with the approval have the final inspection uh you know they might just have a special edition saying that this contract is is subject to um you know the buyer confirming that um you know that the approvals are in place or that the satisfactory Council records are overtones or things like that yeah um so that's probably the the biggest um uh special condition that we recommend is a due diligence or refined version of due diligence yeah right I mean the number of times that you you know you see people buy a property and it's not a bad thing um that has like an unapproved carport or anything like that and honestly it might not even matter you know no one might pick up on it forever but if in case you have one of those neighbors who does then that's like a whole hassle to go through that process or have to take it down and you just don't want to be caught in that Lurch yeah well I mean I think for something like stats say 30 to 40 of all properties in Australia have some kind of unapproved structure on them um either unapproved itself or they or it's been constructed not in ance with the approval that they did obtain and hasn't had the final inspection certificate um so that you know that's as you said may never be an issue um but uh it very well potentially could be because usually most insurance policies require you to disclose to the insurers whether there are any unapproved structures or or there's a positive obligation to say that this property you know has all the approvals yeah right and that'll be in the fine print somewhere but of course uh you know there's been uh there was a major incident in uh you know in in Brisbane a few years ago where you know there was a there was a party at an old Queensland and you know on a deck and the deck had been approved and you know collapse of people were injured so in that scenario now the insurers will will be asking questions about approvals um so yeah it um it is important to check that stuff out okay cool cool and and do you have like any stories or any anecdotes of like I suppose the biggest failings that your clients or people that you've heard of investors or property buyers have experienced because they haven't not just regarding the special conditions but just regarding the whole conveyancing process in general they haven't understood it they haven't done it right they've maybe worked with a dodgy kind of answer what what are things that could go wrong um generally speaking throughout the process yeah well yes there's there's been a lot of a lot of examples over the years but one one the first one that comes to mind is um uh and it sounds basic but actually inspecting the property um uh before settlement so um you know we had a client who despite us reminding them to do so um you know had gone unconditional um and then hadn't uh sent someone around to inspect property pre-settlement and this had been tenanted um and they were planning to move in his own occupiers but wasn't inspected and when they finally they settled and got there um and and saw the state of the place and it was um had been left an absolute mess um you know so there was you know bed bugs and there was cockroaches in the kitchen and it was just nobody had uh you know cleaned up um and usually the contracts require the property being the same state of settlement as it was at the contract date and a bit of fairware fair wear and tear accepted um but because they hadn't inspected before settlement they were left with this property in a really terrible condition there's been other examples where um yeah people just rip stuff out you know um and taking with them or just dumped in the garden they haven't haven't tied it up so um that's a really important thing to do and if you're an interstate investor then you know think about getting someone local around before settlement and checking it for you um whether that's your intended property manager or someone else like that it is really important to that before settlement because if you leave it till after and the seller's been paid their money it's very difficult to to get damages after that yeah in that example with our point we did manage to recover some money from them as compensation but you know there's a bit of a process and it can end up costing extra in legals to do that so that's it that was an important lesson for that client right right um yeah another I mean another another funny example well funny in some way it ended up alright in the end but um a client bought the wrong property so they had there was a a duplex um and it was a developer was selling and you know so you know it was like one and one a um and they'd gone to inspect it with the agent and they were thought they were buying the property on on the left um and the agent had assumed okay well that must be lot one you know uh so contract was signed um you know all the searches were done the plans were done provided the plan oh yeah that's you know that's lot one um etc etc um and uh and then ultimately uh after settlement when they got their keys and they went well this yeah this is this key doesn't work and then they realized it was that they bought the house the wrong house it was next door so fortunate situation we're able to unravel that um you know and and they end up getting the property there weren't too many complications but uh just everyone involved in transaction um you know missed that but really it was the importance of that is the client um you know checking those plans and letting you know and really um letting their their law of conveyance to know you know well which is which property is the one they're buying um because you know the the legal stuff was all fine uh the contract matched matched everything but um it's up to clients to really you know check those kind of things yeah I guess that's also kind of extrapolating that point a little bit further as well it's it's important not just to blindly trust I guess everything that the the real estate agent is saying there's some fantastic agents out there as well so credit where credit is due but you know they can make mistakes or they can kind of stretch the truth a little bit as well when it comes to easements or things like that so it's really important to get a conveyancer to actually you know if it forms within that falls within that realm to actually check all those things and the searches and I might just touch on on searches for a second um in the conveyancing process Richie as you know much better than I do there's various searches that happen to to basically form your due diligence of that property these searches involve talking to or getting records from Council things that you know I couldn't really do that easily myself but a conveyance or a lawyer as much is more appropriate to do this what are those searches like I know there's there's like lists of them there's dozens and dozens of dozens but what happens the major ones well it depends on what state for start what jurisdiction um there are there are some jurisdictions in Australia where there's a vendor disclosure regime um so for example in New South Wales uh and and even more so in Victoria uh in South Australia and act um the the seller must disclose a whole bunch of information about the property and this is this is prescribed in legislation so um they call them prescribed documents in New South Wales and um section 32 vendor statement in Victoria the form one vendor statement in South Australia and and the act as well act goes as far as requiring the seller to provide a billion pest report attached to the contract disclosure so those States um uh you know that there's a good amount of disclosure you need to make sure that's up to date um but there may be additional searches that the buyer wants to do um those Council building records for start or any outstanding notices about the property um and then then in the on the flip side and the other jurisdictions uh Queensland there's there's relatively limited disclosure um from a seller's point of view uh for units there's a bit of disclosure so you know about the levees and things like that um and off the plan there's a fair bit of disclosure but for existing properties quite limited um and that's the case as well very similar in wa NT and Tasmania um so for those for those jurisdictions you know we would recommend a bunch of searches um and um with our search so we obviously send out a search form for clients but we we explain when they might need searches so rather than just having a list of 20 searches you know and the buyer have been left to consider well which one of these should I get because of course they all have a cost to them yeah and if you would have ordered them all you could end up spending thousands of dollars um so you really need to consider what what searches are relevant um if you're buying a house you know that's nearer a main road you might want to do a main road search to see if the council overstate are planning to resume or widen that road um because if they do then you could lose your property yes you'd be compensated for it but it's the last thing you want to happen so our main road search um you know or if there's a you know recent uh recent subdivision uh you know on maybe it's been on previous farmland or or near a petrol station the land might have been contaminated so you know a search of those records or if you're buying a in a really old house you know checking on their Heritage register um but the most popular searches we find our clients doing would be the council records to make sure that um you know the approvals are in place and the final inspection certificates are in place um and for anyone buying units or townhouses I bought a corporate inspection records that's the if you were to do nothing else when buying a unit you should be ordering one of those and it can cost four to five hundred dollars um but that involves Australian inspection agent actually um uh reviewing all the records so all that they get all the minutes of meeting from the agms and the committee meetings um and looking to see if there are any you know issues there might have been defects with the common property um you know the building roof might be you know leaking uh or there might be you know repairs that are needed to the swimming pool um so as a buyer you want to understand what they are because they can turn into big costs and and shared by every owner in the body corporate um and you'll usually be able to find out for any special levels of being struck as well and you often find a lot of people sell um you know some town houses before they have to pay these special levels so it's it's really important you know and it's not and because it's a decent cost it's not something we um that we say is compulsive highly recommended but it's up to the buyer to decide whether they want to invest in that um but as a as an investor myself I would want to spend that money on getting an inspection of 44 records yeah right I mean especially if there's a elevator or swimming pool like you said or tennis score or anything like that oftentimes as you know there'll be a from the body cop there'll be a projection of like future intended costs and if there's nothing left in the sinking fund um then you know that someone's gonna have to pay for it and it's probably going to be absolutely yes it's a really good call out and you did mention we did touch on the kind of nuances state to state I thought we'd just dive in deeper for for a second on you know how in wa to get out of a contract once you've gone conditional it's almost impossible to get out of that contract you know for example on the building and pest inspection Clause whereas in Queensland it's like it's very I wouldn't say very easy but much easier so long as you have the right Clauses in there especially in the special conditions boxes we were talking earlier um could you kind of further expand upon on sort of how the the regulation or the legal structure and wa is different and is it just wa or is it are there other states as well that are a bit like that yeah I mean ultimately it comes down to the contract terms um so in wa you'll find you'll find that um it's there's a very uh I guess it's industry standard um uh structural um defects um special condition and and uh the past uh special condition and so essentially yeah unlike uh Queensland where a building pass condition the buyer must act reasonably but really if there's any kind of defect um uh then they can terminate the contract um but you know as long if it's not satisfactory then acting reasonably and what is reasonable um it's very difficult to prove that someone's being unreasonable about something yeah um uh you know maybe if it was a a leaking tap okay and you turn on a contract maybe that's being unreasonable but um you know if yeah anything that could incur you know a significant cost it would be a reasonable to terminate building contract so a contract based on the building in pest condition in practice you'll often find that um you know there'll be some negotiations about that and ultimately the seller may agree to fix defects or or even reduce the price um to cover the cost of those defects whilst in some jurisdictions polica um Western Australia and Victoria um those billion pest conditions usually are limited to structural defects um and then of course you may need to get uh you know the building inspector you know you need to get a licensed building inspector to confirm whether or not their their structural defects and often there's often there's dispute about that as well um so it can be much harder to terminate contract in WM Victoria because of those spiritual conditions but don't assume that's always the case um you do need to check the actual terms of the contract the special conditions of the contract and that's where your you know lawyer are conveyancing or conveyance that should be should be advising on that yeah I mean there's plenty of people that I know that I bought in Perth um over the last number of years and they've actually put in special conditions and been able to negotiate on the back of building and pest inspections even if there hasn't been um structural you know major structural defects but by and large as you said and I just want to pick up that point because like how objective or subjective is there it is that so for example if there's a crack in the wall and I as the buyer say it's like a huge structural issue but the seller is saying actually it's not a crack in the wall it's just cosmetic it's around the paintwork it's just around the plaster how do you as a as a legal professional how do you figure out what the truth is like do you have to get an engineer in there and that they have to write a report like what's that process yeah you've hit the nail head it's a it's a common cause of disputes particularly in wa um and often you can go around in circles with this so um ultimately you know what is the structural difference and what isn't um needs a licensed professional a structural engineer um to to confirm and we've had to engage them in the past and that of course the cost associated with that um so these things need to be considered in the context of you know the extent the extent of the damage and cost direct provide but you know structural defects can be very costly to rectified so um you know it may be worth uh you know paying paying for that advice from a structural engineer on that one um but you know the better way to deal with this of course is not to you know as as a buyer um to get your contract reviewed before you sign anything um and and ideally we can negotiate uh you know a broader special condition um that doesn't isn't just limited to structural defects and potentially even the due diligence condition so that you don't have to do to dispute whether or not something is uh structural or not um ultimately if you're not satisfied with something then you can pull out the contract yeah I think that that's uh that's wise advice it's always a bit of constructive friction in terms of like in a really hot Market do we really have that luxury yeah of doing it I would love to do it I I there was a recent case of a um actually a client of mine who I don't know this either was a learning moment for me where the garage was not attached it was a detached garage and that actually had a small like a one centimeter crack it wasn't huge and it was detached and it wasn't a big deal but because it wasn't attached it didn't fall into that strict category of major structural defect and so she couldn't actually exit the contract or there was no repercussions on the seller and because it was detached she still negotiate negotiated and she's still got some money the offer to be able to fix it but that was just probably because she was a really good negotiator so there's there's all these nuances and kind of like sub caveats and things that it's just impossible for like me to know so it's really important to see a conveyance or a solicitor I guess for that um and yeah I mean I mean the other thing I mean if if the contract is still conditioned upon Finance there might be a question well would would the would the bank you know if they're aware of a structural defect would they would they approve would would they accept this this property as security for the loan so that that might need to be investigated as well at the time as a last resort right so that's in that vein or a line of thinking maybe in some instances I don't know if you'll disagree with this uh Richie maybe it's good to have the building and pest inspection done ASAP as soon as you exchange contracts and then have your Finance Clause a little bit further out so you've got like that stop Gap another sort of thing to fall back on um have you ever advised perspective yeah yeah that's correct most property investors you know would probably want to get some kind of pre-approved pre-approval at least of course they fully put offer offers in so that they'd have that comfort that they're not overextending themselves by assigning a contract um and then yeah I mean there's a cost to investing in buying property and um you know I think it's a it's a reasonable to to have that you know to pay something to get a licensed professional to check out the property and see if there's any issues with it um and even if you ultimately don't end up getting Finance for some reason um unless you haven't bought a lemon in the end so um it's it's a it's it's an investment in in the property yeah no for sure get your Finance um you know have a really good engagement with the mortgage broker before you put in any office in um that's that's obviously very important and and just before we we wrap up I thought I'd just ask you this more of a like a macro and overarching sort of thing I mean you've been doing this for a long time you've been running your business uh for a long time you've probably dealt with thousands of newbie investors thousands of experienced investors in the residential space No Doubt commercial as well what's like you know if someone let's say I don't know anything about property and I I ring you up Richie and be like uh um you know I need some help I don't know how to go about this or you know what should I be thinking about what questions should I even be asking you as my conveyancer what's like what's like advice you have what's sort of some points perhaps that you would give to to brand new investors just to kind of get them up to a level of knowledge where they're actually being able to manage their team I.E manage their conveyancer yeah well um you're obviously in a good team around you um and and it's the buyer's responsibility to to choose that team wisely but ideally I mean what what we do we use a um a platform online platform called Rundle which means that the the client doesn't necessarily need to manage their team as much because we invite their team in to Rundle so um you know um our clients will have their mortgage broker involved they might you know um might have a buyer's agent maybe not your clients but um you know the real estate agent might be involved as well um so there's transfer and they're all they're involved in the transaction so they've got the transparency of what's going on and that that saves the buyer um from having to manage and then and then contact everyone separately um so they all know what's going on and that makes the whole process a lot smoother of course there's still barriers in place for example um with the with the sales agent you know if we're communicating giving advice to our client and and their professionals you know there's some things that that aren't relevant to the sales agent so we can we have a bear is in place for that But ultimately um yeah we want to make sure that everyone knows where things are at um that things are done by by the due dates um and and that just makes the whole process a lot easier for for proper investors yeah and they've got the comfort that everyone everyone's in the same page and knows what's happening yeah I think that and diploma is really good actually um I've had a lot of good feed it I think it's a lot of conveyancers are going that way but I think perhaps you were one of the first or it's a definitely comprehensive so it's um yeah it's a good Innovation yeah I mean and you know investors need to realize that um I mean all the exciting stuff is done right once you've once you've signed a contract but there is this legal process to go through which is often parallel to the financing process and there's you know um there is stuff that needs to be done so they need to engage uh even if even if it's just signing documents or confirming instructions um uh and and a lot of stuff is time critical so you know if you if you haven't uh given instructions to your lawyer uh about waiving a due diligence clause or a finance Clause uh uh you know um if you haven't done that before the due date uh you may lose your right to terminate the country under due diligence or the contract might be in some jurisdictions deemed to be set the finance condition might be deemed to be satisfied which means that if you end up don't getting financed it's too late you can't pull out the contract so yeah when when your lawyer asks for instructions um it's really important to to provide those as soon as possible um and if whatever reason you can't or you need more time to make a decision that's fine you know we as long as we know in advance then we can ask for extensions to those due dates yeah right and I I don't think for anyone who's watching or listening I don't think this needs to be like a stressful process like I know what rich is talking about a lot of different concepts and maybe some of them are going over our heads but honestly it's not from a process perspective it's not that difficult and in fact all good lawyers or conveyancers will actually probably send you like a sheet or at least have somewhere where all the key dates on it so as long as you calendarize them and you don't just like space out you know what's coming up like just before you put an offer in for the property on on contract send it off to the conveyancer get them to check it out like we've been discussing once you get it under contract let the convey answer no don't just assume that the agent is let them know let them know absolutely yourself as well and then let them know when you're getting your Finance done so it's just a case of like connecting your broker with your conveyancer or you could just be the middleman it's it's not that hard and then same with the building and pass you're calling up building and pest uh person getting that report done as soon as you receive that Rapport and had a chat with the building and past person to make sure you understand the report once again just email your your conventor and said I'm all good with the building and past mortgage broker confirms Finance is done email your conveyancer yep Finance is done the conveyance will then email the seller's conveyancer you go unconditional so it's like you know there's no need to be daunted by the whole process it's pretty simple but it's so essential to have a really good solicitor or conveyancer in case things go wrong and then of course they're kind of holding your hand through the process because they're the experts so it was that a fair summary of course yeah and I mean something that you mentioned paper emails and you know we we even remove that yeah use your random system and and we have um we have little you know 60 second video is it key stages in in the process and the journey um because we know people don't like to read long-winded lawyers letters um and and usually don't so um yeah we just we just sort of summarize it in a easy to understand video at Key Stage so they know what's happening next so and rather than saying okay you need to do this is all the stuff you need to do for the whole transaction and the transaction can take you know anywhere from 30 days to 90 days depending on jurisdiction um and longer if the buying off the plan so uh we we let them know when they need to know about what they need to do but most stuff can be done digitally whether it's signing stuff by even verification identity which is there are really strict requirements um that have come in the last few years um and and there are a few Alternatives but you know we've got a system where they can do it using their mobile that essentially take a selfie and then and then take a photo of your passport and driver's license then nominate someone you know to do the same and that's that comes back to us and that that satisfies the highest threshold the verification identity so rather than having to go to your lawyer's office or having to go this really post office you can just do it after work at home yeah so there's little things like that that can make the process a lot easier yeah no totally it's 2023 and I think yeah maybe emails are archaic I don't know um but yeah you certainly don't need paperwork and all that sort of thing so I will leave link below to law Labs link and you can kind of check out their Rundle system and what they're all about but just before we wrap up Richie was there anything else that you wanted to to mention any last words of advice for any investors out there uh not not particularly no but yeah thanks for having me um and you know your listeners can gear can feel free to reach out to me or the law lamp team we're always happy to help um I guess the final Yeah final piece of advice is it's always better to do a to get a contract reviewed um before you sign anything um and you know most lawyers can turn that around pretty quickly so get that done before you do sign the dotted line okay great advice um thank you so much Richie for for making time it's it's really cool of you and thank you for watching or listening if you have once again I'll leave a link below to law Labs website and you can go go through that and check out what they're all about of course there's lots of great lawyers and conveyancers and solicitors out there um but Richie's obviously right at up at the at the top end of that so um go check them out and thank you so much I'll see you next week see you later guys thanks PK cheers thanks Richie