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so thanks for being here my name is Jay and I'm excited about this so we're gonna get right into it today's conversation is gonna be on customer discovery who here has heard of customer discovery who's heard of customer development same number wonderful who here classifies as an entrepreneur who here works at a startup ok great ok got a good got a good feel for the room so I'm gonna try to convince you today that user research is the absolute key to your success and how you can do that in a very practical tactical way my name is jay i'm the founder of unreal collective I work with founders and freelancers to help grow their businesses our flagship product is a 12 week online accelerator I also am an author for LinkedIn learning LinkedIn bought Linda calm about three years ago and I'm an author in the product category what you're about to see here today is actually my LinkedIn course in about an hour and PowerPoint format to be honest and I launched the podcast last week called upside as a podcast about startups outside of Silicon Valley previously to that I was the CEO of a company called tik sirs Sixers was a digital ticketing marketplace we were a little bit like StubHub on the front end if you're buying tickets we had a little bit of a different value proposition for ticket holders season ticket holders this was my trial by fire learning about product it was a two-person team we had contract engineers I learned everything I knew about product through just having next to no money and contract engineers who needed a lot of very specific direction luckily for us that was acquired in 2015 we worked for one-up sports for a year and we moved on I went to cross-checks about two years ago and that was a lot more of a formal education into product at a modern software organization they had a lot more processes in place they had on staff engineers which is amazing they had incredible UX designers and they that was really where I formalized a lot of this knowledge that I've continued to really put form to and has taught me everything about customer development who here's been to a Startup Weekend a couple of you Startup Weekend is three days about a weekend 54 hours to conceptualize validate and start a startup company my first startup weekend was in 2012 this was kind of my formative basis of entrepreneurship before tik sirs this was me I had actually less hair then than I do now I don't know how that works but I'm pretty stoked about it we built an app called man card it was kind of like Instagram when Instagram was taken off I had a very similar feed but the whole point of man card was to share photos of your friends or yourself doing manly or unmanly things and that contributed to your man cards score which is right there it was a lot of fun I think we play second place in that event we got into TechCrunch which is really cool but the TLDR on that is we gave up but what that did allow me to do is start organizing Startup Weekend which I've been doing for about five or six years which is a lot of fun and through that I have seen five years hundreds and hundreds of ideas die in the graveyard no longer exists that's kind of what happens when you see dozens of events a year or sorry dozens of ideas a year just spring up and then go down so to me ideas are a dime a dozen it's not about ideas it's about execution it's about really solving a problem that people want solved and that's what I've learned I've learned to build something people actually won and people actually need a lot of times that's actually a important difference a lot of times you do want to really know your customers so well that you're creating something they need even before they know that they want it this is something that Y Combinator has made very famous this phrase make something people want is sort of their their mantra they were one of the first startup accelerators ever and it's really informed people like Airbnb and stripe and Dropbox that's taught them to build software products that people actually want because if you don't your business will die it will not exist you will not sell an thing you'll waste a ton of time you'll waste a lot of money even just an opportunity cost of you wasting your time this is a graph from CV insights of the top 20 reasons startups fail and the number one reason no market need that's bonkers to me that you're starting a company that has no market need and I'll almost at a 50% clip they're failing 42 percent of startups are not solving a need and outside of that you see a couple other categories here ran out of cash user unfriendly product ignoring customers here in the top I don't know how many up half you're like eight reasons and all those things can be avoided through customer development and so how do you build something people want you talk to your users and what you need to know is you are not your user you could be a user maybe maybe you are building something that's scratching your own itch but if you're trying to sell to more people you're gonna have to talk to more people than yourself if you're solving something for yourself and you only care about solving it for yourself fine you are your user and you can stay in an echo chamber but don't expect to sell anything so talk to your users and remember that you are not your only user will even say you need customer development customer development is something that was made famous through the Lean Startup and this is something that I have through LinkedIn created and this is going to be actually just a faster version of it so enjoy customer development is four steps customer discovery customer validation customer creation and company building customer discovery is going out and making sure that you have actually turned this vision into a series of hypotheses and tested them to see that you understand your target market customer validation moves into okay once we understand our market and we understand they have a need or a problem can we actually get them to give us real money for the solution customer creation is saying okay we know people will pay real money for the real solution how do we pour gasoline on that fire and start to pour more customers into the pipeline company building is when you've gotten those processes down you start to nish out different parts of your company so that sales and marketing may not be the same person sales and the CEO may become different people business development may be its own division it's when you really formalize a structure of your company and build out to capture on all the customers demand for this product that you validated so today we're going to talk about customer discovery predominantly customer discovery answers these questions of what is your hypothesis who are your target users what makes them unique what can you learn about them who is a top priority for users you may think I've got several different user groups well let's talk about who those user groups are and prioritize them and say which ones are the ones we really care about most I recommend writing problem hypotheses before you talk to these users and doing it in the form of a user story and that's important because a lot of this is going to come from the role of a product manager even if your title is not a product manager if you're an entrepreneur or you're building a project or business you're essentially a product manager and user stories become really important when you're working with a cross-functional team to help them understand what needs to be built so in these problem hypotheses there are three important parts that you fill in as a user type I want to some sort of behavior so that I can have some sort of outcome or benefit and the first thing you're doing is making assumptions here and you're especially making an assumption on the I want to at the early stage of customer discovery you don't really know what your product is going to look like you're really focused on finding the need and so you're trying first to figure out as a user type I want to what what is the thing that I need to do this is becoming you know this is a secondary hypothesis essentially but it's not bad to start with some assumptions so let me give you some example of these hypotheses the first one is nest the smart home thermostat that Googlebot and probably wasn't a great investment as a home owner I want to use a smart thermostat so that I can save time and money obviously smart thermostat became their products they figured out that was the what I want to do but what they found out first was that home want to save time and money that was the outcome that was the need they're trying to do how can we help homeowners save time and money we're gonna give them a smart thermostat here's another example this is an example I would assume would be like Salesforce the software as a service company that's massive and services mostly sales organizers say 'ls divisions within organizations as a Sales Professional I want to manage all my contacts and leads in one place so that can close more deals sales professionals want to close more deals how can they do that will give them a product that manages all their contacts and leads in one place as an office manager I want my patients to sign in electronically to save time and reduce errors this was something that we researched from of my time at cross-checks talking to independent practices we found office managers where a user for us they were trying to save time in the check-in process and reduce errors in the check-in process so we said how do we deliver a product that lets them sign patients in electronically so when you're going down the route of figuring out who are my users what is the outcome that they want I recommend starting with secondary research you're probably going to want to not spend money when you start figuring this stuff out right would you guys rather spend money or not spend money when you're starting starting a project or business I would like to not spend money and money resources time all this is interconnected and these are things that you want to cut down on secondary research comes from places like Ohio State places like the Pew Research Center places like Consumer Reports there are people that are out there probably already talking to your assumed users and doing a lot of research already in this space what can you learn from them before you start doing your primary research this is not at all a replacement for primary research but this can give you an early indication if you're onto something or not you may figure out oh I'm really thinking about this the wrong way or oh this is really flushed out as something that is a real problem and I'm seeing that from this research if you have either of those moments go right into primary research well first of all sorry if you have the moment of oh this is really something needs to be done go into primary research if you oh this is really not a problem this is not something that this real user feels then it saves you some time of spending money and effort going into all of that so these are different places to do secondary research Google has a lot of this Google Scholar specifically there's a ton of university research out there that a ton of time and resources go into and it gets published and it's available for you to look at I also love reaching out to experts directly people who are fascinated by the same problem that you are maybe at an academic level or at just an anecdotal level talk to them and say hey you've already talked to these users a lot am i off-base have you heard this what are you thinking and they'll really help you start to shortcut some of your learning alright now what you've done secondary research you've said okay this seems to be a problem all the indications that I'm seeing from secondary research and and consumer reports and talking experts it's saying I'm onto something so now what do you do this is when you move on to primary research primary research is talking directly to the user talking directly the person that you think you're solving a problem for and there are two main methods of doing this surveys and customer interviews both are pretty popular surveys are especially popular and I'll talk about them but I don't really want to because in the phase of starting something in customer discovery you need to be doing as much of an information grab as possible and surveys are a tool that are only as good as you make them and creating surveys is so often done poorly that the data you get back is garbage and not good basis for you to go out and then actually try to you know start a company I see this all the time with things like Startup Weekend you say hey would you pay $20 for this yes or no and you send it to your friends and you send it to your mom and they check yes and you're like hey seventy-five percent of people want to please me but until you're asking people to vote with their money and vote with their time that doesn't really mean anything you're asking a very leading biased question probably to somebody that's not even your market so I'll talk about surveys and how to do them properly but at the early stage you want to have conversations with all the individuals that you think could be your potential users surveys are good for tracking changes over time and that comes in when you usually have at least a minimally Viable Product or something you can show as wireframes because you don't have changes over time to track until you've kind of built something so again this is why I don't focus on surveys at the outset of customer discovery quantifying issues seen in user studies really good for surveys because surveys put a lot of numbers to your data that's a really good use case for surveys but again you won't really get that that data or those numbers until you can put an actual product in front of somebody and you shouldn't have a product to put in front of somebody until you've validated that this is a problem they're having and that's gonna come from interviews it's good for measuring attitudes intent and task success but you see where I'm going here interviews are really good for understanding underlying motivations and needs really good for getting a lot of data quickly from these individuals about how do you spend your day-to-day why are you thinking about things this way what do you wish was different about the way you're doing things what annoys you what are what are things that you just hate about your job they're good for discovering whether people are successful using a product it'd be hard to put a product in front of somebody and say okay now take the survey and tell me how well you did that's gonna depend on honesty and awareness on their part whereas if you watch them do it and then you talk to them about it you're gonna get a lot more valid information from them first it's also good for uncovering actual behavior when you can watch somebody and talk to somebody and latter into questions and not give them this kind of wall of a screen of a survey where they think and they're trying to fill in something that makes them seem smart or non biased interviews are really good at helping you uncover the truth a little bit more about surveys before I dig into deep interviews deeper good surveys are short they should be less than five minutes they should be multiple-choice if they are not short if they are not multiple-choice set that expectation ahead of time say hey by the way this is gonna take ten minutes it's gonna take fifteen minutes make sure you set aside time to do this really well but most survey should be very short because who here has looked at a survey that looked too long and you just said I'm not gonna do that anybody yeah a lot of people and if you do it you might fly through and not give like real good information start broad and then get more detailed before you ask somebody do you have a TNT for your cable you should ask do you have cable group related questions together instead of saying do you have cable do you have bananas in your kitchen do use AT&T for your cable keep those things together you know and before you send it out to a lot of people send it out to a couple people first just to get eyes on it and not people that you think are necessary your users but people you trust you go through this process too and can tell you is this a biased survey is this a leading survey is this skewed am I gonna get good data test it with people first and the last point on good surveys use rating scales if you use a textbox in a survey it's gonna lower your responses and it's not gonna give you good data the only text box that I advocate for on surveys is if you're sending a two-question NPS Net Promoter Score survey the first question is on a scale of zero to ten how likely are you to recommend this to a friend or colleague and the box says why did you rate that even that should be optional give people and out people don't want to put time and thought into that and if you're asking them for time and thought you should probably be doing user interviews instead bat surveys this is kind of fun what I mentioned earlier that would you buy this that's using you're using that to justify assumptions it's a leading question would you use this questions like do you like salt and pepper on your eggs that's a double-barreled question maybe I like salt but I don't like pepper maybe I like pepper but I don't like salt but I do love 90s music don't ask double-barreled questions and asking why this is probably going to be an open text field question and you're not going to get a very insightful response here's an example of a survey that I think is structured well this is from an exit survey from unreal collective how proud of you are you of the progress you made on your projects it's a zero to ten scale not at all proud - extremely proud show more neutral is makes it easy for them to fly through this get it quickly and then you have a lot of quantitative data to actually go back and use all these questions are kind of done in the same fashion all right now out of the interview is the stuff the good stuff the stuff I really want to share with you guys before you interview somebody you should know if they are a good fit for your assumptions if your assumption is that you're creating software for a doctor you probably don't need to interview a lawyer and you can screen them out beforehand because it's not just nonuseful it's actually dangerous if you're talking to somebody who's not your target user and you base decisions on their responses then you're not making the right decisions with your products you're not making the decisions with the direction you're going because you're getting the wrong information from the wrong person so I recommend creating a screener before you pull someone in for an interview this is really simple you think about okay who are the people that I actually want to talk to who are the people that I'm assuming are my users that I want to talk to this is an example again with nest the smart home a thermostat people who've used thermostats or someone that I want to talk to I pad users this is kind of used as a indication of whether someone is minimally tech-savvy tech-savvy a range of Ages from eighteen to sixty we think that nest can fit people from a wide spectrum a mix of men and women this is important that we have a mix and mid range of educational backgrounds don't want to be too highly educated because they are going master market and so okay if I've decided that I want to talk to iPad users how can I determine what is the exact criteria that says someone is an iPad user they have used an iPad at least three times in the last week is our determinant so how do I turn that requirement into a question that can screen someone in or out in the past week which devices have you used at least three times and then add a bunch of different devices so they don't know that you're looking for iPad so it creates honesty it's also important in a screener to talk about who you specifically don't want to talk to I don't want to talk to people who are already a user of nests I don't want to talk to people who are under the age of I don't want to talk to people who are unusually technical I don't want to talk to people who work in real estate or property management and it's the same thing how do you make criteria to say this person fits that description or not and then how do you turn that into a question and you don't want these questions to be written in such a way that you feel like it's obvious what the answer that you're looking for is because response bias will have them try to answer correctly they want to pass this thing if you're a market research firm and you're sending Jay Klaus an email asking him to come do a study for you and he's trying to game the survey because he knows he's gonna get $300 for sitting there for an hour he's gonna try to get the right answers in your screener so make that non obvious sharing the screener okay you've got the screener how do I get this in front of people that I think are going to be the right people for me to interview put it together into the digital format you can post a Craigslist you can share it at Facebook on Facebook or at Facebook if you think people who work at Facebook are your target audience you can share it at Facebook you can go to conferences and events and kind of set up and say hey do you mind taking time for the survey depending on how many people you want it's really not hard to get in front of people really really not hard interview questions that are good this is the fun stuff conducting the interview before you conduct the interview get a plan together put a template together is what I like to call it a sheet that at the top says okay what are my objectives for this interview what am I trying to learn I'm trying to learn what this person's problems are I'm trying to learn what their top three issues in their day is I'm trying to learn what demographics my the person of this user types that we fall into let's say that the user again was office managers what are the demographics a lot of these people or the psychographic so what do they think about the world how do they see the world then have a little bit of an intro in that template to to say hi hello welcome to the interview we're happy that you're here I'm just gonna ask you a few short questions I want this to be a conversation I want this to be comfortable if at any time you need to stand up and use the restroom by all means if you need a water let me know we'll pause that's fine if you have to take a phone call just let me know create a safe space buildings rapport make it comfortable and then get into listing out the questions that you really want to hit on look at those learning objectives and say okay if I want to know their demographics if I want to know how long they hold this role what questions can I ask so you can ask thing it's like age who is your employer how long have you been there what is what is your title with that employer if you're trying to figure out does this person have the need that I'm hypothesizing ask questions like what are the top three problems you face in your day to day and before I draw drill into their work specifically I like to leave it vague and just say what are your top three problems that you face on a day to day because if they are going to something let's say you think you're solving a problem for their work life if they immediately go to something that is work-related and that's one of their top three problems you're really on to something if they don't touch on that and they touch on all things with home or their personal life fine you can ask a second question of let's talk about your role here what are your top three problems that you face on a daily basis and what I really like as a sort of shift to that question some people are kind of closed and slow to warm up and they try to think really practically if you could say let's say you have a magic wand if you could wave a magic wand and get rid of three things about your workflow or change three things about your role what would that be and asking them that magic wand kind of gives them this creative license to think outside of what they think is possible to think really deeply about what do I hate even though I think that there's no way to change that you're saying forget any aspect of realism that you have let's let's give you a way out of that when they tell you their problems ask what causes that you know okay so you you really hate when you add in the wrong last name from somebody's handwritten sheet what causes that well they were in a rush there's not a lot of time or I couldn't read their handwriting okay this is just data that you're trying to gather always ask them can I follow up after the interview there's a little bit out of order but after the interview you want to make sure that you ask can I follow up with you because you're going get a ton of data through this process but you may not get it all and there may be something you say I wish it would ask more about that and so asking explicit permission to follow up is going to engender you to them and also give you that permission to follow up they're gonna have a little bit of response bias to say oh I told this guy you could follow up if you have more questions he has another question let me respond to him I like asking specific parts of their day in terms of processes what do you wish you could do today that you can't now again you can throw the magic wand in here if you add a magic wand what do you wish you could do differently how do you know that you've had a successful day or a successful month or a successful year what are your measures of success when they say something you can always ask can you tell me a little bit more about that or can you say that again or can you give me an example you just want to ask as much you want to get as much information as you can you can because this is why you don't ask this in surveys people talk very freely and very comfortably and they'll tell you a lot more information quickly in a personal interaction and you'll hear so much that you weren't expecting I can't even begin to count the number of times I went into an interview thinking I was going to know what they would say is something totally different comes out you start going down that rabbit hole of saying okay this is interesting and once you've spotted the start of that pattern when you talk to other interview candidates they may mention something similar and so you can try to lead them down that path too and see are they having similar problems do they think about this similarly because what you're looking for in these interviews are patterns patterns that confirm your assumptions invalidate your assumptions or start changing your assumptions in some way when you're conducting interviews and this is just as important as the questions themselves is how you as a person exist within that space and actually conduct that interview with the person you actually kind of have to get into character to do this well you have to go into interview mode and that means checking your emotions and assumptions at the door you're there to learn you are not there to pitch you are not there to dispute the way they think about things everything they have to say is valid and really valuable to you so always ask for more information don't try to change the thinking because if you start trying to explain yourself or pitch them on something they're gonna close up they're gonna get the feeling that you want them to say something specific and they're gonna think oh I don't know if I have the right answer I'm gonna talk less and you want them to talk a lot you want them to talk more and so to do that smile be interested in them I like to call the order of conversation kind of like an arc like an emotional or intensity arc you know if you're if you're trying to solve a problem in their workplace and you're asking them to speak poorly about their workplace or in their mind they think they're trying they're going to speak poorly about the workplace don't start the conversation there start somewhere simpler start asking about their age and their title and what their days are like and maybe even how long they've lived in this city start kind of slow build up a relationship and get them speaking and then as you go down the path and saying okay so what are your top three problems on a day to day basis what causes that why do you think your boss thinks like that you know they'll be more comfortable and they'll just kind of share a lot more with you and then just like you ramped up to that you then ramp down you you start asking easier things the things like can I follow up with you do you have any plans this weekend not in like a weird way but like you know just to build rapport and again at any point if you're in doubt clarify say things like can you tell me that again can you say that in another way and as they're speaking you know you want to be making eye contact you want to be on your phone if it's possible to record audio or video for this interview so you're not just scribbling notes looking down at your paper and you can maintain eye contact you know you want to be sort of on the edge of your chair and just like nodding and saying mmhmm mm-hmm that like really encourages people to continue down that path and to keep speaking and that's really good and again do not pitch your idea at this phase of customer discovery you shouldn't even really feel like you know what your product is going to be you need to really understand their problems and there's no place for pitching there you want to shut up and listen and you want to watch everything about them the way that they're smiling or interacting if they're closed if they're like crossing their arms they're not comfortable and you should scale back the intensity arch if they're angled away from you they're not comfortable if they're avoiding eye contact they're not comfortable bring it back start building this personal connection again so you can start getting good information again and you just yeah you just you listen you listen through the whole process so now you've interviewed 20 people 20 people that you think are your target users you have all this anecdotal evidence that you've kind of taken into notes you've got notebooks full or you've got audio files and video files and transcriptions you're saying how the heck do I analyze this this is not quantitative and again you're looking for patterns if there's something that you kept hearing over and over again and ideally it's validating your assumptions if you think that people if you think that homeowners in the nest example wanted to save time and money and your accident about their problems and all other things tie back to I just don't have enough time where I'm over spending my budget is too low I want I wish there was more money I could save somehow you're validating those assumptions and if you keep hearing that across people that's really good news because when you're when you're starting on the path of selling a product it's kind of this staged process of how good the opportunity is because for you to sell to somebody they need to first be aware that this is a problem for them even if you're solving a problem or creating value for them if they're not aware that's something they need doesn't mean they won't buy it but it does mean it could be drastically more expensive to get them to buy something because you have to first create awareness and you have to first educate them on this opportunity so in these interviews if they are identifying self identifying the problem that you think you're solving really good thing and then they go down the line of okay have you let's say they identified the problem they said I want to save time and money you ask what have you been doing to solve that problem and if they say nothing then that's another stage they haven't quite cost yet but if they're saying here are the three things I've checked into three things I'm trying to do this that means that again they feel that problem much more painfully and it's going to much easier sell it's gonna be much cheaper to acquire that customer so the more that they are aware of and already looking for alternatives or looking for solutions that's a really good sign if they have tried solutions and they're unhappy with them that's the third stage also really good sign you just know that you have to create a solution that they're happy with that's better than those existing solutions they are already feeling the problem they're aware of the problem they're looking for solutions they want to solve it so badly they're trying products and they're not happy big in in the fourth stage is if they have a budget already set aside and this is usually more in the b2b space but if they have a budget set aside to solve this problem when the right solution comes around like good times a lot of times you have people 42 percent of the time you're solving something that there's no consumer need they aren't even at stage one you got to get past stage one you're gonna be spending like crazy to acquire these customers so you're looking for patterns after the interview summarize what you found summarize those patterns summarize okay I had these assumptions what did I learn was I on base is I off base did they say something that starts a new assumption what did I learn about my hypothesis does that change my hypothesis does it further help me define who my user is maybe I know now instead of just saying I think my user is twenty four to thirty two year old women it's not twenty four to thirty two year old women it's anybody who feels this way about this problem and that's moving from demographics to psychographic so that's looking at how do you see the world how do you consider your place in the world and and the things you put value in in the way that you manifest in this planet and there are three outcomes to this you either one say that really validated my assumptions I was right that's amazing woohoo you celebrate and you move on to stage two of customer development which is customer validation you say okay I figured out that there's a real need this person feels they are really looking for a solutions to it now I'm going to create an MVP and I'm gonna try to get them to pay me money for that solution that's stage two actually asking for money for an actual solution the other outcome is you can think well I'm close you're not totally sold on the fact that the problem they're talking about is the problem you're assuming you're not totally sure that the idea you were thinking about that could solve that problem will solve the problem they're talking about in which case I would recommend shifting your hypothesis a little bit and doing a new wave of interviews and making sure that you really really understand them before you spend any more time and money going down this path of creating something and the third is your it is wrong and you were way off and so you got to start all over or drop something completely and a lot of people look at this as a problem and they say I'm wrong and they have like their identity wrapped into this and they're saying man I can't give this up because I've talked too much about it and I I can't just drop this but you should look at this failure as like a real success because this is saving you a lot of pain this is saving you a lot of pain and a lot of loss early on and if you can save that pain and loss before you actually spend more time and more money and build a real thing that's amazing that's like super good for you so then like I said if you move on from customer discovery you go to customer validation where you test whether people will pay you and if there's a real business model behind that real-life example here I mentioned cross checks earlier when we were talking to office managers this is my first five weeks on the job at cross checks they said hey we've got ideas they were assumption so they basically had problem hypotheses and they said we don't know which one of these we should actually pursue we want you to figure that out and this was in June of 2016 I got in a full suit in my car and the heat of Ohio summer and I was traveling to 20 offices a day I was going on the yellow pages of scraping them I was bringing in addresses I was putting them in some free tool that was super gnarly but would optimize the route for me and I was going around and visiting 20 offices a day literally knocking on the door going in knowing I wanted to talk to an office manager but I first had to get through the front desk person and then if the office manager said yes and I actually got to talk to her she usually had to get sign-off from the doctor who might have been even like her husband or his wife or you know a lot of times these small offices were really connected this is like really what you have to do in this stage you have to go talk to people we're knocking on doors because these guys are so inundated with requests for the time and they're so crazy busy at their offices they don't answer the phones they don't answer emails especially not cold emails from someone that may be trying to sell them something we had to go and we had to build rapport and we had to talk to our users and say hey I'm not here to sell you something I'm really here to learn and then they would invite us in but we would go then I built a Google Form that had these problem hypotheses on it with a one to five scale of whether or not that conversation indicated that our assumptions were correct and after every conversation we would just rate all those problem hypotheses and it would go into a Google spreadsheet and then I'd pull down the data and say which one of these are we finding is a real problem from these literally hundreds of conversations we're having is that a three or four person team at one point and that was how we decided to go with this product for office managers and this electric check-in process for independent position offices one more real-life example that I really really like that just speaks to the power of interviewing your customers Spotify which I'm sure we've all aware of I'm going to save you the the work of raising your hand to say you're aware of Spotify they have discover weekly this awesome thing that came out a couple years ago that people were really excited about the original vision of discover weekly was that it was giving you a curated list of songs that you had never heard any of them before it was saying we know your music profiles so well that we're going to give you a complete list of new songs completely new to you so that you can discover new artists and they released it and it had a bunch of positive feedback people loved it you're like oh man this is great and they realize that Spotify there was a bug in the code and they realized that they were giving people songs that they had already listened to on Spotify and they're saying oh that's wrong we want to give them all new songs so they took that out they fixed that and they patched it an engagement went way down and they said why did that happen and so they went and they talked to a bunch of their users and what they found out was those users were identifying that because their discover Weekly was giving them music that they had already listened to and they knew they liked they read that as Spotify really knows me and so they put that back together so your Discover Weekly brings you mute like some songs that you've already listened to on Spotify just to like build credibility and build some some brand affinity or some trust so okay you've outed that's how you find users there's really no magic pill or silver bullet for this it's just hard work you have to figure out who your users are really understand where they are or who they are and then meet them where they already hang out go to places like okay if my target users are office managers I can go their office I can go to conventions where office managers get together I can create an event where office managers are coming it's finding out where those people are already hanging out and going there to get in front of them because that environment users usually somewhere they're more comfortable and they feel safer and they're more willing to engage with you and so that's that's the best way to do it all right that's all I got happy to ask and answer some questions you