Unlocking the Power of Digital Signature Legitimateness for Business Transaction Management in European Union

How to eSign a document: digital signature legitimateness for Business Transaction Management in European Union

[Music] foreign [Music] thank you [Music] [Applause] [Music] foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you why not foreign [Music] thank you [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you [Music] thank you okay okay good evening everyone sorry if the slight delay I'm our anxiety and welcome to your active hybrid conference part of the presidency debate series supported by Microsoft and the confederation of industry of the Czech Republic now today we're going to be discussing a digital Europe in a globalized world how to reconcile Europe's digital Ambitions with its transatlantic agenda so those are two very massive things so panels I hope you are caffeinated um a big welcome course to everyone who is joining us here in person and also to everyone who is joining online and as always if you have a question or a comment please do put it into our slider chat page and I'll be picking out some of those questions or comments later on in the program so to grow economies we need two very distinct things nowadays um we need Innovation and we need digitalization and it's something that perhaps we became more keenly aware of during the pandemic and we also realized that Europe had a lag and that it needed things fixing ASAP now if you look at stats on global digital competitiveness it puts obviously the US right to the top of the tree and China in fact sits just below the top 10 underneath the UK so the UK actually doing something right for a change and then Nordic countries um and the Netherlands are also top performers but in key Industries um between the US and EU companies there's close to 20 points difference now the EU of course has legislative levers to realize its digital Ambitions you have a digital markets act you have the Digital Services act you also have cyber security acts is also rebuilding trust across the prompt in trade in investment and of course digitalization by the TTC um the EU us trade and Technology Council and this of course this transatlantic relationship is so important because it accounts for about half of the world's GDP and about a third of World Trade flows so the EU is definitely making the right noises but it keeps also getting itself stuck between two competing aims between protectionism and innovation and we saw also the EU fallback on protectionism during the pandemic and then obviously because of the war in Ukraine which is understandable so how then can the EU strike the right balance between being a rule maker and being a superpower in a digital space to compete with China and the US well let's ask the experts but before we do and we now have a quick statement from Microsoft so please join me on the stage I'm Jeff willwinkle thank you very much for those remarks and it's my pleasure to be able to welcome people to this hybrid uh debate of the presidency uh in the context of uh presidency here uh of the European Council and it's our pleasure at Microsoft by the way to be able to host this event in close coordination we'll check Confederation of Industries as well it's been a very interesting series over the course of time now and I think this is a very timely conversation indeed for the reasons pointed out a moment ago the last year or so uh has been so challenging for so many different ways we have the ongoing pandemic and of course more recently uh a war raging in Ukraine and I think these things do emphasize a number of different things that are important to reflect on as we get started today in the conversation one is the fact that technology does touch our lives in so many ways both professionally and personally I think also the recognition that there is a need for new kinds of regulation of technology today to be very clear and you'd also for companies like Microsoft and others to be doing their part to help create trust in technology as well and to make sure we are addressing important considerations including around National sovereignty which today of course is talked about in the context of digital sovereignty as well but how best to do that well I think the war does illustrate that sovereignty debates have evolved in interesting kinds of ways I mean think about in fact the fact that the Ukraine government Embrace cloud services and achieves sovereignty by migrating its own data outside its borders to Data Centers across the whole of Europe and uh in that broader context we have also an emphasis on a new transatlantic collaboration like we haven't seen in many many years before so indeed it is a very good time for this conversation we have fantastic panelists here to share their thoughts uh with all of you with all of us I'm very happy to be here for Microsoft to say welcome and thank you for coming okay thank you so much Chef okay then well time to induce our panelists then um we have Malik Habra who's the deputy Minister for European Affairs at the government of the Czech Republic thank you so much for taking you on your phone we have TiVo Kleiner who's the director of policy strategy and Outreach at EG connect welcome um we have Michael pechichek who's the chief technology officer at Avast who joins us remotely so you can see him just behind us thank you for joining us as well we have Jose Ignacio Tori Blanca who's the head of ECF armadrid a senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations who also joins um remotely and last but never least we have Milena yapkova who's the vice president of the Confederation of Czech industry for digital economy and education so welcome to you all and it's a pleasure to have you all with us um and let me now let all of you introduce yourselves to the audience so America would like to go first thank you very much it's really great to be here thank you very much for organizing this event and and and making it exactly on these two topics uh transatlantic operation and digital both of these topics are very high on in terms of the priorities of the chair presidency so let me just make a few remarks on the beginning because as as is this format well I I think if you want to say ensure security and prosperity we need to take a fresh walk on the transatlantic relationships we need to create a common space where Innovation and investment will thrive by respecting our values this is very important and I think we will get to it in much more detail hopefully the Russian aggression against Ukraine profoundly confirmed the need for the cooperation among democracies through regarding developments in China China uses technology for surveillance and control of society which is just simply incompatible with our values at the same time China is heavily investing into all types of Technologies going from chips uh to artificial intelligence and at the same time China is intensively working on to influence the multilateral order basically to make sure that the definition of human rights stays with the country is not challenging the international in the global in the global setting at the recent itu International telecoms Union poly potentiary I think we've been very successful as democracies especially the cooperation between the US and the in the and the EU and we managed to get new leadership of the itu as well we managed to let the Russians out of the door basically in terms of the leadership and the China I think was very clear message when you look at the number of votes from from the global from the global constituency they got the message I think in order to make a Way Forward I think it's crucial that we strive to establish a completely new type of cooperation but not only between the two blocks if you wish but between the business and the governance of the two books and I think this is in in the core of the future we need to overcome the traditional approach to I don't want to say rent seeking but I would say trying to secure the comparative advantage which often leads to the race to the bottom and we just need Purity to overcome this we need much more strategic type of cooperation between businesses and the post-governments if you wish but I would enlarge it to the governments of the democratic countries and this needs to of course stay into account both hardware and software when we talk about digital I think the the U.S National Security Council for AI could serve as kind of inspiration I'm not saying that we need to copy that but maybe we need to learn a little bit uh from the approaches which have been developed there over the recent Years thank you okay thank you so much um over to Michael please go ahead hello everybody so thank you thank you very much by the way can you hear me yes we can just show your figure okay very good so thanks the organizers uh for kind of doing that and I'm looking for a great debate and for questions uh let me just uh share with you kind of two thoughts on the topic of the cooperation and digital and kind of flow up to what Maring just started so I'm here as a member of the uh executive leadership team out of avast which is uh the biggest European cyber security firm by far the biggest and uh we became recently uh combined together with the northern LifeLock which is the sixth biggest uh cyber security firm worldwide and um we are jointly creating a business that is a truly transatlantic so Jewel headquarters business headquarter in the U.S technology headquarters in Prague kind of business experience and kind of corporate government from the United States technology backend and the security engines from Project Republic is going to be new new name right so company is going to be listed on NASDAQ but this is a truly uh trans transatlantic business with uh the reach to more than a half of billion of users worldwide until why why this is such an exciting uh opportunity it's because it is kind of centered around the whole concept of consumer uh safe centered digital safety this is a safety centered around around people and the reason why we are so passionate about people is the fact that we see that the classical cyber security is gonna losing its its charm because the software systems and the devices that used to be a target of the attackers are less attractive and currently it is the human cognition and human focus and attention and human decision making which is a vulnerability which is a part of the supply chain and it's it is a subject of the of the attack and uh that's this is this is why I I think that the human perspective and uh protection of digital freedom on the internet that this is something where the US and the EU and the European countries really share the foundational set of values until I found this kind of really really a a shared shirt objective and uh the good foundational reason why why do you gotta build a transatlantic company um it is not only for the ransomware and and uh scan protection and a fishing production but it's also about misinformation and about manipulation which are the next generation of the cognitive attacks that are really important for the how people live digitally it's very important for people digital uh digital safety and what we what we are focused on and uh what is one of our Prime concerns is to create a cyber safety more engaging for users so the time when people do not need to worry about cyber security is gone now we're gonna need collaboration of people second it's uh protection against all all different scams and and fish attacks but more importantly it is protection against misinformation which is a scam 2.0 and also production against algorithmic manipulation because what we see currently is that the internet is unsecure from the perspective of users not only from the legitimate illegitimate attackers but also from people who run legitimate business and this is because of the algorithmic manipulation that is driving people behavior on the internet so our our aim our goal is to be there for the users and try to provide a technological support for understanding the recommenders that are driving people's behavior online and for providing users with a true control over how recommender systems are influencing people's lives it has been disclosed recently by Mozilla that you're in their study with 25 000 users of YouTube that they feel that they don't have any control over the recommendation systems that are providing users consent from YouTube and we fully understand that in order to protect users online against algorithmic manipulation nobody can do this alone and this is an opportunity for a for an academic sector for the scientist it's an opportunity for the technological companies like Avast Northern LifeLock but also Regulators to cooperate to collaborate and to come up with a regulatory solution that would enable proper protection of users interests online okay thank you so much for highlighting and how you protect users and the vulnerability that there is online um over now to T book liner please go ahead yes thanks also for inviting me um uh as sometimes I have to explain what I'm doing you know I explained that working for the European commission is like working for the government of Europe and it's interesting because you know the European Union first and foremost used to be a market it's the biggest Market biggest singers Market in the world and EU used to be also first and foremost a trading partner is the largest trading block worldwide and I think through this market-based tools basically we've done pretty fine over the last 15 years I think our industrial capacities overall you know remained relatively uh strong compared to China and compared to the relative decline that took place in the US we didn't do as well maybe in the digital sector but still you know we we have been able to develop some some technology and capacities what happened however in the last five years is that this Paradigm has slowly changed and I think we've seen it very clearly with the kovid but already before there were signs that globalization as we knew it was not anymore going to stay as a matter for us to gain more growth and more Prosperity but that we needed to move from just being a market to being an economic power because the name of the game today is much more about geopolitics it's much more about you know safe State being sustainable yourself you know not totally autonomous but at least having some sovereignty in terms of your Technologies in terms of access to raw materials and the like and these new game means that somehow the EU and the US have to rebuild their ability to work together not as competitors but as allies because we have challenges not only in terms of geopolitics I mean just look at what was discussed in in China last week you know clear challenge to the West Was expressed but also look at what Russia is doing who would imagine that a war would be there or in Europe in 2022. and we have also to look at what is happening in the global South where actually the West is losing ground you know when you you speak to African countries to South America South Asia you see that our values are not taken for granted that our help is not necessarily seen as a gift that is really beneficial and therefore we need to rebuild a vision for the digital transformation and for the global influence of of the West that is based on a new partnership and that's where I think that the the TTC the trade and Technology Council is an interesting formula but we have also to make it work because if the the if it's only a one-way traffic where you know uh Europe and U.S get together more closely in terms of geopolitics but the trade angle is is not met because we have things like the inflation reduction act that is going to penalize very seriously European interest we have a problem it's not a partnership if it's only going one way so at the end I think the challenge for today is not only for the EU to be better in terms of its own digital sovereignty and we have there adopted and thanks again to the Czech presidency a big program for 2030 we call it the digital Decay the policy program where we said to ourselves ambitious Targets in terms of uh digital objectives in terms of inclusion you know Broadband for everyone skills but also in terms of infrastructures with you know being better at Cloud Edge Cloud actually but also Quantum Computing chips and the like and also making sure that our businesses and our governments are fully digitalized so that's our Target for 2030 but I think that to be successful we will need indeed to reach out to Partners starting with the United States and therefore we I look forward to ttt3 as we call it beginning of December we will have a few concrete projects to announce and hopefully also where we can put balance in this traditional League relationship thank you so much I'll be asking about that meeting in December as well um next to Jose Ignacio please go ahead hello thank you for inviting me it's great to be here with you today you know I at acfr we're a foreign policy think tanks so as as people say where we worry most is about geopolitics and foreign policy this means that for us a strategic autonomy does not meet Independence it means capacity to act it means at the maximum you know to be free to decide on our own and who do we work who do we want to work with um how do we want to support like-minded countries uh also maybe at the minimum means uh not to be coerced by others in order to change our foreign policies as as others see fit for example concrete questions you know do I have to change my policy on Taiwan because I do not have semiconductors or because my 5G networks are in the hands of companies who answer to other governments not just to the markets is my democracy subject to destabilization attempts by the countries who exploit the vulnerabilities of social networks and and platforms or because they use cyber security attacks in order to weaken my critical infrastructures elections and manipulate my public opinion do I have to compromise on my citizens rights to privacy because I don't have the capacity to regulate companies and platforms who deal with data because I'm just too weak um to um to transmit uh our values to our policies this is a very concrete examples of what um the Strategic autonomy or text oriented means the paradox here is that for Europe we are trying to free ourselves from the dependencies associated to fossil fuels and the fossil fuel carbon economy implied a certain geopolitical order in which Europe was very vulnerable and we still are paying on this so it would be quite a paradox that in trying or in even successfully befriend us from the vulnerabilities and the dependencies associated to carbon economies we would end up being dependent in our digital and green transitions of the Technologies produced by others and are regulated by others so this is what we mean in terms and the Paradox that we should try to to avoid not to be not to end up being dependent on on others green technologies semiconductors cables whatever you want to call it I'm I'm positive and uh on on on the answer to these questions that you're posting today in this panel and I'm very much looking forward to the discussion I don't think Europe faces a problem with potential protective protectionism it may be probably uh more worrying for Europe uh the lack of Innovations and the heartless to Innovation but I don't really see European protectionism there is no on all these efforts uh in the commission is engaging on on technology there is not a single by Europe or by European Act uh been passed right so so this is not about Europe having ITS Technologies and excluding others uh for uh having those Technologies or having European Champions at the cost of others but it is about how to make sure that companies operating in Europe um but also multilaterally we can work together with the United States and other countries in doing this they have or they answer to European values and standards and I think Microsoft is a very good case in point when we speak about how you can be an European company in terms of the regulations and the values you stand for whereas not exactly an European Champion being produced by Europe's industrial policy so I think there are many ways out of this of these problems and I don't quite see the dangers of protectorationism as compared maybe to the risk associated to Innovation so thank you so much for this first opportunity to State my leaves thank you thank you so much then to our last speaker Melanie I'd like to make your statement and happy to be here thanks for invitation looking forward for the debate so let me say my few words uh the Russian invasion to Ukraine where digital business uh became a part of the battlefield gives us a unique opportunity to reassess the EU aspirations goals and objectives there are three basic lessons we've learned from this horrid War which may help us to adapt the EU policies to a new paradigm and these are there is no such thing as a free dinner or free lunch uh friend in need is the friend indeed and United We Stand and divide it we all we fall and let me explain uh there is no thing such as such a free lunch means that the EU cannot depend on cheap critical product and services from authoritarian regimes or LED them to own or manage our critical infrastructure the energy crisis induced by Russia's economic coercion causes our communities to suffer and his heart European European business the resilience is what we need not sovereignty but resilience second A friend in need is the friend indeed means that if someone is ready to help you when you are in crisis or in danger uh makes possibility that this is also a good partner for business and trade we can easily distinguish friends and foes from their stance to Ukraine and we can assess how fit they are for growing opportunities of partnership with the EU and us and the UK are leading the way and third the situation is serious and never the EU has been under such pressure and we need Partners to build our economy our society and our trade resilient and therefore we need to work with Democratic allies to build such societies United We Stand and divide it we fall thank you so much I think your point there on friendofo and Ukraine war was very poignant as well um now before we kick out kick off I should say our debate um on digital Europe who better of course to Muse over the path that Europe needs to tread then one of its elected officials please everyone give a warm Applause to our keynote speaker from a new renew Europe she's the vice president of the European Parliament thank you so much so good evening good afternoon and my apologies for being a little bit late I think the idea was that I would kick off the debate but since you already started so maybe I would build up on what has been already set and try to be a bridge between the panelists and also the audience and I'm really excited to hear the debate that that will follow the discussion I first of all let me thank nazrus you're active to Confederation of the industrial trade of the Czech Republic and the Microsoft putting us together I'm very pleased to see the high level experts panel I'm very pleased to see a lot of checks as you know the checks are now running to European Union I'm very pleased to see Milena I think she set up the scenes I I see some some of her words already in my paper so I will just not repeat it try to avoid not to repeat it but being check be coming from the same region I think we all understand that the war in Ukraine is not just the war about Ukraine it's the war about the future of Europe and it's the the war about the future of the next World System and it's not just about the security it's not about the defense and I am very pleased to see that the cooperation with the US and the security and defense field is working very well so I think that a war in Ukraine if something managed is to show the unity of our transatlantic agenda and to see concrete results of this cooperation of course now we can celebrate more than two years with the new U.S Prime Administration we see some concrete results that the mood has changed but we also do remember the the previous administration and what kind of impact it had on our cooperation between the European Union and the U.S uh one if you want to work with with your partner you need to build the trust if you lose the trust then it's very difficult to restart uh I think we what we have seen in our transatlantic agenda that you cannot just push one button to to restart the agenda that you need to rebuild the trust and what we have seen in Europe um due to these four last years in the U.S politics as Europe looking more and more in words Europe speaking about digital sovereignty about autonomy and I am the one in the European Parliament always adding the adjective open Digital sovereignty and I think in the current context of the war in in Ukraine is even more important to outline the open Digital uh sovereignty and autonomy because I do understand the arguments of my colleagues that we want to um build digital sector in Europe to have strong tech companies in Europe but my question would be is this the most economic or even the most secure choice for the digital uh single Market I personally don't think so I think that a closed European space is not the solution to our greatest challenges for me the challenge of the digital future is making sure that Democratic Values under pennant that freedom of speech freedom of businesses are the basic rights of individuals are respected for this we need to ensure that is not China who is setting up the rules it's not China that is the source of new technology but I don't think that Europe alone or perhaps even United States alone will be able to meet the challenges I'm happy that we have a tool with the US to tackle these challenges together the trade and Technology Council where we started to talk we started to see what we can deliver together I just hope that we will have some concrete deliverables during the December uh during the December meeting of course um speaking here the key issue and I'm sure that it will be one of the issue of the discussion is the data flows I'm very happy to see that President Biden signed the executive order recently which allows us to have more optimism but we've been through it already before we already had the Privacy Shield Safe Harbor and all of them were challenged in the court so I'm sure that the new new Arrangement will be also uh challenged in the course uh I think here the our American colleagues should understand that the damage of blocking data flows to the economy far outweighed the potential value of the intelligence gathering on those flows this is not the only way to gain a National Intelligence the greatest source of intelligence would be a strong and increased daily exchange of information between American and European intelligence agencies but for this again what we need is the trust but I would say that no matter the result of the core challenges we should not or we must not give up we must not give up on finding a way to maintain data flows and to prevent de facto localization requirements on both sides of the Atlantic I've been in the digital agenda in Brussels for for over eight years now and I'm proud what we as the Europeans have managed so far and the digital agenda how we are are determined to create the digital single Market in Europe but every time every time we discuss new legislation on digital in the European Parliament what I have on my mind is that this is not the rules that will govern just the European companies just European citizens but it's something which will affect also the other side of the Atlantic and hopefully if we manage to sit down together and set up these standards together then we can have in mind the fact that we are setting up the rules for the rest of the world that we are setting up the global standards and truths so thank you very much for inviting me today for this timeline discussion and looking forward to do your your discussion and the outputs of of today's panel thank you very much thank you so much thank you um okay well let's kick off this debate then um so let's just quickly do a temperature check um going looking at all the keywords that all the panelists have used I pulled out a few policy Paradox geopolitics friend division sovereignty influence um the EU wants of course the EU plots but is it really shaping the right rules right now to get the digital future it wants how much time or how long could this possibly take America I'll come to you first yeah maybe I I I start with the word joint and and this will be the core of my of my uh of my of my talk now and I very much for what the the vice president of the EP just said um I think we really need something what I would call join strategic autonomy of democracies so going wider ah then then then transatlantic well let me maybe just remind you very briefly what are the priorities of the Czech presidents in in very quick shortcut is Ukraine energy European Defense resilience of democratic institutions in Europe and the resilience of the eu's economy it's the resilience of the EUC going this is the heading which we have adopted as as a priority so I'm really glad to hear some echoing of this even I would say not only from the Czech business side but as well from Jose because the the capability to act is to act in order to be resilient in in in my understanding and for all this uh we really need to go ahead with this joint approach TTC is a great starter but we really need to go much much deeper and what is crucial about that and this is why we already organized one of the events to support the TTC is to involve the businesses joint evaluation framework for artificial intelligence perfect but we need the businesses to be sitting around the table joint work on on standardization perfect but again business is crucial here if these standards are not taken on by the business if they're not co-created by the business they will not get very far this is exactly why we kind of been losing itu for last eight years because the businesses from this part of the work from the Democratic part of the world they don't see the value of Engagement so we emptied the space both the governments as well the businesses and we led the space for tencent Uma and the Chinese government so this is exactly what we need to tackle and this needs to be needs to be understood and the final is what I would like to to talk about is is joint space for r d because if we share with with Jose that there is a huge danger that as we start to to try to protect our values we will actually just do not manage to have to be in the part of the world which is able to innovate and there I would very much advocate for join space for r d really large scale not the US not the EU but joint and and basically the conditions which we have in Horizon where we have three member states as a rule of thumb we need to condition up the two member states the US and the EU I'm a little bit exaggerated the vice president talked about you know Ukraine the war how much has this war reminded the EU um or wanted or pushed it forward in terms of its digital Ambitions and security I think the boy Ukraine was not really anticipated which was probably a big mistake but at the same time see it is not only a wake-up call it is also something that obliges us to be better at cyber security I think was just mentioned and and I would just recall that there were attacks somehow not only in Ukraine but indirectly also on infrastructures in the EU and we managed to avoid big problems because somehow we had already started to prepare ourselves through you know not only just legislation but joining forces between EU member states in terms of having capabilities in terms of having also the means to build this resilience and I must say that I like the term resilience I think it's a good way to also show where we stand today but Ukraine is more than this it's also about our values and it's also about the vision of where our society should go in terms of also the digital transformation and also the the power have been very interesting we were working with Ukraine some years ago and we had interesting projects in terms of supporting e-government which led to this app they have you know on their smartphone and without this I mean the situation would have been much worse actually for Ukrainian citizens who left everything behind just you're fleeing to a neighboring countries because through this um app on their phone they they that sometimes the means to identify themselves to access their social security to sometimes find money through the app so it became more than just technology it became a lifeline and I think that's also what we learned that digital Technologies can be designed not only with our values in mind they can be also designed in a way that is efficient and that makes a big difference on the grounds I think all these uh not only Lessons Learned I think they are an invitation to do more and to be faster to also transform Europe in this direction okay so an opportunity to do more to transfer transform Europe uh Jose coming to you then this idea of digital sovereignty is it in fact a sort of redundant concept because it can never be absolute Europe can never be fully independent is it better perhaps to look at strategic autonomy I mean the vice president for example she talked about open Digital sovereignty I think married you spoke about strategic cooperation what's your take yeah as I said you know there is um probably not such a thing as as a full 100 text sovereignty and even if you knew how to get there you wouldn't want it because the nature of the European project is a project which is open to the world and is multilateral in his DNA and this has made very clear from the beginning by President Von the lion in her attempt of course to combine the idea of geopolitical Europe with the idea that multilateralism is in our DNA so you know we are ready and open and we should be ready and open to work with whoever stands for values which are similar to those we don't want to create or to break the internet in order to have an European way to and and exclude others what I think it's very important is to highlight um despite sometimes um fears uh by by some that on this agenda despite his diversity and this is what I think it guarantees its success is that we are 27 countries but when you look at the sa and Dam the digital Service Act and the digital Market acts look at what happened at the European Parliament you know 539 vote in favor of DSA by only 54 against and on dma it was 588 and only 11 against you know this is incredible unprecedented and I think it shows also the way and shows what are we up to it is I would say very hard to argue that the high degree of bipartisan and multi-partisan consensus in Europe about these regulations uh is setting us on a wrong path uh to the future I would rather say that what we should be worried about is that in the U.S there is no bipartisan consensus on any of these issues and that we are facing an interlocutor at the other end in but in which it is adopting our legislation in some cities states and some uh agencies are the fact to adopting these regulations um and and the Democrats would want to um to adopt them but they cannot find their way so uh we I I think that of course as I said at the beginning that we may have a problem with a stiffened Innovation which we have to look very carefully at but I don't think um that um that we are divided on this topic which is um a good sign and uh and even with platforms and companies we've seen how on the core of this information how large platforms have been voluntarily working with the EU since 2018 and there are two rounds of uh this information um code of practice exercises that have worked very well uh without threatening the life and the capability and even you know the business model of this large platforms and companies so I think we are on the on the right track on on regulation rather than on a wrong track on on these issues the the issue uh was the with the sovereignty is that it's uh fluid and sometimes slippery concept because everyone sees in it what they need and if you look into the dictionary this this concept originated 16 16th century in France and it was used to bolster power of French King over feudal rebellious Lord and to facilitate transition from a feudalism to nationalism and I would like to avoid a situation when some stakeholders in the EU may use this to facilitate transition from internationalism to back to nationalism so this this scenario we should avoid TV is that something you'd like to comment on I saw you nodding quite a lot there no I like the historical references and I I was noting because I was myself in a at least two debates uh some some month ago in in Council so where member states were debating um this what what word to use with sovereignty open strategic autonomy strategic autonomy resilience I think the semantics only go that far it's important but it only goes that far and I think what we need to do is to basically realize that in today's world if you don't stand you know on your two feet basically you're not a credible partner and basically You're vulnerable and I think in a situation where you know you cannot access certain components you don't have access to certain raw materials you don't have access to talents you're in trouble so you can call it whatever you want the reality is that you need to fix this in a new new situation where globalization is not what it used to be where we would have you know smooth and easy transactions across borders and that's a little bit what also I was trying to say that you know we in the EU there is this this now this situation that people realize it's not enough to be a market you need to become more of a power that you know has somehow and also an industrial angle and and some form I would not call it patriotism because I agree with you it's it has bad connotations but at least EU business needs to stick together a bit more and not just be about you know I do business wherever I can get the the highest margins which has been a little bit of the The Narrative over the past years well a big part the EU does have um Tebow is its power to legislate or to regulate um but one thing I did want to and I think we spoke about it just before um we did start the debate it's this idea that the EU the European commission sort of hyper regulates that it's a digital gatekeeper that is perhaps holding Europe back from its true potential I mean obviously it is a really hard job um I think for the commission and also for policy makers in general especially given the times polarization cyber security Wars economic turmoil I mean but talk to us a little bit about the kind of role that the European commission has in all of this do you think that the European commission does hyper regulator over regulate is it to me yes to you yeah yeah I I think it's it's a typical question from the perspective of London if I may say and I think that if you look at you know the brexit I wasn't going down the road but now you want to mentioning it because it's a test case I mean if you look at the facts of what actually uh happens when you don't have EU regulation you have just another form of Regulation that may be actually even more costly so I I think that at the end of the day the the Merit of of the the single Market is that it's it's big and therefore with just one piece of Regulation you have access to almost 500 million consumers that are relatively wealthy and therefore it's a fantastic tool for doing business at the same time I agree with you somehow that you know we should not over regulate because there is at some point of tension you know when you have to fill in forms or to pay attention to multiplicity of rules that are too complex of course it has a cost but in the digital space I think the big problem of Europe is rather that we need our people to get into this digital transformation there's a lot of risk aversion in Europe much more than in other regions of the world there is much more hesitation to actually adopt new technologies and very often the way we have designed our legislation is to Define I would say the European Vision of a digital transformation of digital technologies that are essentially good for you because you will be protected you know your privacy is protected because everybody is included you know we try to you know include you know elderly people handicapped people people who don't have maybe a financial means and so on we try to make sure that there is security online you know that children are protected that you know when you go on online platforms there is freedom of speech so all these values are in a way translated into legislation and the goal is not to harm business on the contrary to create this big Market but also to design the technology in a way that fits the European Vision the European values and that hopefully creates incentives to do the right thing and not to abuse your consumer online or to create algorithm that will lead to young people committing suicide and so on and think you answered that um very very well Michael coming to you then um there was one thing I noticed the cyber security Cloud certification scheme and from what I understand um the approach is seen as restrictive some member states aren't happy um you know for example that if it was if that restricts competition and from non-european companies most um are we going to see that it can or cannot provide the same sort of level of cyber security in the EU what would you make of that where the EU is do you think essentially the EU is perhaps over extending itself here yeah you know just gonna uh briefly you know I wanted to kind of to to sense to uh what has been debating here because I think that that is like really critical topic and you I like uh what marag has said early on that for us as Europeans kind of being able to protect the results of European economy is very important and at the same time it's it's important to protect our values and our freedom and I actually think that you this is enabled by a technological sovereignty but trust and plotting not not European I think that the European technological sovereignty would go directly against the first objectives that Marek mentioned because getting a restricted access to best-in-class technology would be hampering European business and in the end would be a negative impact on European uh Freedom so actually that you uh technological 70 is a good good idea but only in the contents of other transatlantic or cross Democratic part of the world but not European I don't really think that it would be helpful in near 10 and long term for the European citizens and businesses where I think there is an opportunity is in creating a shared values with the partners outside of the European Union there is a number of opportunities I actually attended the regulation and partnership and regulation as an instance of a shared value but I am an academic by training and I think that kind of one of the most exciting idea is kind of fostering the r d collaboration and you European Union has got the biggest and most successful r d funding program on the planet The Horizon programs and I think that kind of building a horizon EU us or building a partnership in the context of the Horizon funding would kind of make the extra extra mile and kind of continue building a shared value between Europe European countries and the United States thank you Melanie you know I would like just to react on tibo and then uh to your question on cloud uh cyber security certification uh you are from directorate which is friendly to business uh not not many harmful uh regulation comes from your team so we like you very much concerning uh the regulation in digital space I have a slightly different uh opinion here because you know we are the business so we have the skin in the game uh you know we are the most impacted and I would say it's like they making the Shrew because you know this is a huge amount of Regulation and very complex with not enough uh thoroughly made impact assessment and this is something we have to change so uh because this can you know harm European businesses and Innovation much more than you know competing with some with some Giants if I ask you what is the Innovation like in your country then Innovation isn't being harmed by the regulation then I think that if if you if you don't get the regulation right yes definitely we can have an example uh with uh suddenly in AI act uh there appeared a general purpose AI system that they would be regulated as well and this would be so difficult so impossible to comply with we are talking with developers Engineers a small medium big Enterprises so this is something we should bear in mind talking about Innovation and back to your UCS I think that's uh it's it's true that uh inflation with the reduction Act is is is uh it's harmful to European business it's a shame that it was agreed in the in the in the in this in the shape it was agreed uh but UCS this is the similar shameful attempt protectionist attempt and uh and it was introduced you know in the clandestine way there was not enough debate about that there was no impact assessment because it will have some repercussion for trade and this is a just example of two files that could be debated at the TTC and this is how we can you know achieve uh concrete uh measurable outcomes we we all call for Merrick yeah I would like to what do it build on what table Mikhail and and Milano said um I would like a little bit challenge the notion that the European industry or the business needs to stick a bit more together I think this is fraught I think what we need really is that the industry from the Free World from democratic word sticks together so the U.S together is European or european together with the US and others Japan Korea Taiwan Australia New Zealand stick together and this is how we will build those strengths this is how we actually will grow individual as well in this partnership and I think for this we just need to do much much more one was the the r d large program based on Horizon so so I'm glad Michael likes it as well the other would be EU us Erasmus program just let's let's have a large new Fulbright which would go between the EU and the us we just need much bigger exchange this is crucial for us because this is how you build trust you live in the place and and you gain the trust you gain the understanding of of small differences the the fundamental values we share this is this is no discussion about that including privacy and digital by the way but uh but there are always small differences and and and by by being exposed to them you you understand them better and you build the trust so concrete very concrete cases of cooperation between businesses the U.S businesses is a good example we're sitting here in in Microsoft in Europe this is very good example exactly so it's exactly but we need to Foster we need to promote we need to support of course respecting the values are you sure and we might want to be strong on that in terms of you and I I fully share with me how I I did my password on the impacts of artificial intelligence I fully share the the uh the concerns about manipulation and the cognitive abuses by especially by AI in digital but it's not only the government's need to act it's really the business and this takes me back to the impact assessment I I worked on the impact assessment in the commission for a number of years and I still feel the cooperation with the business just needs to be overhauled especially under this pressure of the geopolitics we face today it cannot be the way which is still today that the business comes and basically lobbies to to maintain the state of school it cannot be this way it needs to be a new type of cooperation we need to get real data from the business we need to have a new type of agile regulation together to develop it because exactly this is what we need it moves much faster than we than we normally do this is why for example we're supporting in the AI act the implementing part so for the commission to act so to be more agile but we need the business from the other side to cooperate and provide the data so we understand the impacts much better and and we just need to develop a new type of cooperation and all the companies needs to be involved both from the US and and to your okay table how about we build on that um idea of um cooperation then um and how do you make sure that you know private sectors do collaborate um and that the EU doesn't get knocked off its path um to be really competitive in the digital sphere no collaboration with the business is essential I mean I would agree with what was said and at the end of the day you know you're only as strong as your private sector in terms of competitiveness so we need to nurture I would say European ecosystems and especially in the digital sector that's something we are trying to do for instance with the chips act so I will just use this as an example I think it's the first attempt to to really do industrial policy in a way because this proposal contains elements around research and development incentives about support for investment but also elements about how you manage these strategic issues in terms of access to you know chips for certain sectors and I wish we would be a bit faster to be honest you know I wish that uh Council and Parliament would already have agreed because on the other side of the Atlantic you know we have a chips act and I think having on both sides you know the means to act I think would reinforce very much you know our abilities and chips in the end you know is is the you know the bread and butter of of everything digital it's also where as you see it now so it was Ukraine and and China we we may still have a little bit of advantage that we need to nurture and where also there are big risks you know look at what is happening in Taiwan so at the end of the day we need to develop these ecosystems but also to make sure that we are not naive if I may say in terms of you know this this cooperation because business interests whether we like it or not are not Universal for the the public good I mean it is at the end of the day you know you need to make money it means you need to win competition and even if you cooperate I mean you need also to accept that you know there will be winners and losers in the in the business world so that's what we need also to to be aware that you know it needs to be fair play and again on the inflation reduction act this is not fair play when you know at the time where Europe is uh having an energy crisis you get if you move from Europe to the US even more you know subsidies and incentives it is creating a big risk for industry today and think we need to speak about this with our American friends because if they hurt us sorry we will have to react and that's not I think the best idea today when we are rebuilding this strong relationship I think we need to do it together and build you know a stronger transcendenting Market I like this idea of doing more on on Research I think that's actually part of the of the plan we have for for TTC in fact but we need also to do it in a situation where it's fair play and a Fair competition okay and I know all the panelists are raising their hands um Josie I'll come to you first yeah I wanted to follow up on what TiVo was saying because sometimes you know I see you know these emphasis or um stereotype that Europe is protectionist um and and others are are not and especially in the case of the transatlantic relations I think we have to be realistic and and understand what are the challenges that we're facing because if we don't get this right you know we will be making mistakes and the truth that is that when it comes to digital markets it is the EU the one that has been protecting the markets protecting the markets you know by making sure that large companies which are not facing do you or the right competition and regulation or Anti-Trust competition regulations in in the U.S for reasons that you know are here too long to to deal with but we know that American regulatory institutions have not been doing their their job and that therefore some of these companies have grown too large and these companies not European bureaucracy are the ones that have been preventing competition and entry into the market of other players by preemptively buying um potential Challengers into the market so I think to be fair it is Europe for a long time ago that has been guaranteeing that uh Mark that there is competition in the markets and that is fair play in the markets also on fields for example like we see now because of the size of these companies is so large that we have not only uh the opportunity but the right you know to think about what is the impact of this large platform concentration know some of the issues and I mentioned just one point if it's not two maybe two things which could be provocative enough for this is that one is Twitter um is freedom of expression in Europe going to be regulated unilaterally by Elon Musk is this the regulator of freedom of expression in Europe or do we have to come in and step in and buy agreement across our countries and political forces agree on that and second is Let's Be also realistic about the challenges that we Face from the fragmentation of politics in the in the United States and this is maybe a question also to our checks uh counterparts here you know can we imagine how the Ukraine war would have worked with Donald Trump in the White House doing this is a situation in which um Donald Trump would be Banning Europeans from using U.S military hardware um in order or just withdrawing NATO surveillance capabilities um and the capacity to see and hear you know what is going on on Ukraine can we in some hypothetical scenario have f-35s grounded in Europe because um a U.S president like Trump would not think that you know there should be use in these other circumstances to defend the European airspace you know these are very real questions they aren't these are not science fiction questions anymore and we have to be ready to deal with these questions thank you they're given those questions um I know that you both want to see bit TiVo coming to you then what do you expect from the next TTC in in December at that meeting what do you expect from the U.S side so I I expect I mean basically now it's time to announce concrete deliverables and I think we will have some uh it it should happen in the U.S the data thing is more or less announced four and five um December it should not be too far from Washington and I expect that there will be also nice moments for the the principles to get together and and and discuss basically the same issues we are discussing right now um I think there will be also discussions around the inflation reduction Act as well as maybe uh other regulatory efforts from from the EU but I also expect that we will try to get down to business in terms of you know taking stock of where we are announcing deadly programs but also projecting ourselves and uh already I think that uh what I I hope is that we will be talking about how technology can make a difference in developing countries but also for for the the common goods I mean you know this this tech for good is something that I would like to to see coming out of this TTC okay uh which one of you want to go first you want ladies first no no please modestly wait oh I I wanted to build on two lessons which we need to learn one is from the inflation reduction act the other is from the chips act okay so I start with the with the first one oh it is just clear that this should not happen it's not about the retaliation it's about what we do so it would not repeat and got aggravated in the future so we need to build a new communication channels probably we need to build a new type of cooperation between the two between the two governments because we just didn't manage on the both sides I would say but it's not only the governments which you need to learn it is the business in my view which needs to learn and and that's I'm back to you to my initial comments we just need to move from this classic rent-seeking influence of the government of the business on the government you just need to move from that because what that happens is that the business is being heard at the end it's not as the ecosystem I mean because there will be retaliation and at the end you get the business to being heard so so we need much more strategic approach from at least from those multinationals who understand the situation that we are under geostrategic huge existential pressure I understand that number of uh number of reps and Senators on the Capitol Hill just do not see that and they will Lobby for their constituencies to to to be able to build uh solar panels and and to to build batteries and Etc I fully understand it I I I've been there 30 years ago I worked on Capital that's clear that that happens the same does happen here but but we need to learn from this sending it to to and from the chips Acts I think this is a dreadful experience for myself I I I've been following very closely the the drafting of the um the work in the council and from the very onset then the commission started I've been very closely following the U.S chips Act and what we're creating is here is the race to the bottom this is exactly what we don't want and it just gets me back to this rancid King culture in the business we just need the business to to learn again from this experience we don't want to be around sorry racing to the bottom in the Democratic world this will make us weaker this is the same as as talking about that the business in one side just needs to grow no it will not happen it's it's big even even the the biggest Market in the world is actually weak as we experience this is the EU not the US so so I think both the businesses and and the governments like need to learn these lessons I think we should use the upcoming TTC for in-depth discussions how we prevent these two happening over and over because this will be the disintegration of the relationship and if I just may and quick follow-up to what you're saying um how can the Czech presidency given the few months that you have left till the end of the year how can you help to imagine what you're saying well as as I mentioned you know transatlantic relationship has been very high on our agenda and could hire it's Ukraine obviously and unfortunately we're already expecting that this might happen because the time that we are preparing in the first half of the year it was clear that the the the pressure from Putin is is mounting so I initiated not only this discussion with on TTC with the support of business and many things to do commission and to the American representation to to send high-ranking officials for the discussion as well I initiated number of discussions between the Czech presidency team draft code drafting now registration and the American administration number of agencies on the chip sect one on data act on the AI Act just to at least to understand each other to exchange much more in detail much more in depth in Korean origi understanding what is the what are the thoughts on on both sides this is what we we can do we have done it we are supporting number of events in the first week of November and I'm very much looking looking forward especially uh to the event on the second and as well you know if if we are invited as you know TTC is the lateral the EU the US so the member States including the presidency have rather limited powers in there I'm more than happy to and we are more than happy to of course support as much as we can okay thank you thank you so much Melanie I will I will answer Jose Ignacio question to the checks uh what would happen if Trump would be in the White House yes it would have been disasters I think that the you know our societies the European U.S the UK are are under hybrid war attack and some of results I'm not politician I can be blunt are results of this hybrid Wars but my question Jose to you is what would happen now if you are the United States wouldn't be helping Ukraine Russia would already you know one and have another expansion you know uh objective so um and there is um and to TTC uh maybe you know guys you could include some very proactive things you uh like you know agreement uh about joint investment to groundbreaking Technologies like a Quantum and you know others so something you know tangible proactive and I hope that you will solve the issues uh difficult issues regulatory issues like you know uh the uh anti-inflation act and some atoms as we mentioned UCS depends what is in the proposal of the of the Anisa and other attempts you know industrial partnership where you cannot participate based not on your quality but nationality okay thank you very much um Jose I understand that you we've seem to have lost Michael um I understand that you also need to leave it's a time constraint so if you'd like to give maybe your final thoughts quickly no I mean I think I've I've made all my points and until you're to your question I think we know the answer and we know we don't like the answer to that question and this is what we should work uh in a as I said in a non-competitive in a Cooperative way with the us but also bearing in mind that at some point we may face situations in which we would have to act autonomously not because it was our choice but because it was some other choices I think we basically in agreement there and I really I want to thank you all for for giving me the opportunity to to be here with you it was a great debate thank you so much thank you so much um I'll just take one quick question um because I know obviously people have been asking questions it's not fair not to ask their questions too um tea but maybe I'll ask it a view um it's from Martin he says what is the Smart Target of digitalization in Europe EG for 2030 how much is this going to cost the European taxpayer to achieve this target why does digitalization need Central management at an EU level well not free market deliver the same or better results so the beginning I did understand which what is the the smart Target of digitalization for Europe and I mean it's there are many targets we need to reach I think it's there's not just one uh Dimension that is enough um I will pick maybe a different one that uh you you I would have said originally which would have been maybe connectivity as a as a start because that's what you need for everything but I would put actually the target we set for 2030 in terms of every European having a digital identity so it's a proposal we've made you know the idea of a digital wallet that is also your identity online because I think this is really the key to include everybody uh into this digital transformation and also the key to unleash a lot of potential for new Services I mean the idea that you you can also pick from your own wallet what kind of information you share with an online platform or with a with individuals and companies is very interesting you know you can say if you were 18 or less or more you can say if you're a man or woman but you don't need to provide all the information that today we are we are sharing and that as we know very often actually happen not to be safe because they are you know access to this this private information so I would pick this one as a game changer having all our identity uh our digital identity and this is not that taxpayers money as such you know it is more like an investment and therefore what you gain out of it is much more than when you pay for initially okay thank you very much um I won't take any more of the questions because I know that we are getting a little bit um over time now um similarly I'll ask you first to wrap up your sort of final thoughts or key takeaways from the discussion first um I'm I'm pleasantly surprised that we agreed on main point that we learned the lessons from the war and from the geopolitical shift and then we have to work you know in partnership with strategic Democratic allies and this is the change business land as well a hard way thank you so much and happy to work uh was that it was as a business not Trend seeking but constructive as uh with our governments and the the commission of course this very important relationship and for businesses um T by your final thoughts I think we didn't say much about media but I think that uh debate like today I think is very important and I think that online Media or you know traditional media are extremely important so I think we should also thank your active and support your active for what you are doing also because we saw what this information can do and I think that it's only now that we realize how important the Russian disinformation has been in our societies and how much actually it is successful still today you know it was you know talking about vaccines it was talking about other things today