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all right let's get started so denver thank you for your time today super excited to have a conversation with you about programmatic digital out of home and the media's landscape um but first first off would you would you mind just uh introducing yourself and telling us a little bit more about frontier australia that would be fantastic yeah cool um firstly christian thank you for for having me um those that don't know me i'm denver um i'm the head of bidable at frontier australia i've been at frontier for about 18 months so i sort of started in the middle of the the covert pandemic uh towards the end of uh 2020 and and um you know fast forward two years later um frontier um a little bit about myself um i've been in predominantly digital roles from the start of my my marketing and media career um i started at optus with a digital marketing internship so optus is a huge telco in australia and so i started there and then i worked my way through understanding the basics and the fundamentals of digital advertising and digital marketing sort of various roles over the past uh eight to nine years understanding core performance digital expanding into programmatic uh advertising learning the fundamentals but then also sort of growing in that space and sort of expanding my knowledge in the digital marketing space so now my role at frontier is is quite broad in that i'm supporting the agency teams and delivering the best digital strategies that are integrated into the wider marketing mix so very much involved in the agency teams from to make sure that all the digital activity or majority of the digital activities planned and executed in line with our clients kpis and speaking of kpis that's a real fundamental focus of frontier when we look at working with our clients to achieve those kpis beyond traditional media metrics um i think that's one of the things that i see a real sort of differentiator versus other agencies in market there's a real focus on it and we have tools in place to make sure that anything that we plan and buy uh we can correlate to business outcomes whether it be leads whether it be actions on site or you know revenue based goals as well excellent thank you that this is a this is interesting it's a good segue to uh um the first topic i wanted to uh talk to you about today is uh the current media landscape everything has shifted a little bit during the the pandemic uh what would you say characterize the media industry right now in this post pandemic era um it's it's tricky to say um the media landscape is always changing we did see a massive change when you know there was that element of of panic and people really didn't know what was going on so a lot of advertisers and a lot of our clients um you know stopped stopped their advertising um and we did have a second lockdown in in australia predominantly affecting the eastern eastern states um here we kind of continued on because we knew there was an end in sight what what behaviors i think typically have stuck is people spending a lot more time online um that really accelerated during the pandemic and that behavior to a degree is normalizing but we're still seeing that behavior continue on i think streaming had a massive influx a lot more people at home of course so you know the source of entertainment was was the big screen so we saw a lot of people streaming uh and and consequently that behavior hasn't changed people like the flexibility that it gives them to watch the content when they want to watch it um and and the technology has also improved a lot in the last two to three years um which makes you know tv a lot more addressable um so that's the sort of the biggest thing that i've seen um what we're seeing now is sort of like a a bit of a normalizing of of that um that that is still there um but we are seeing other media channels now come back in as people are being more as people are going out and about so um out of home is is making a bit of a resurgence and so is um you know the the more offline channels such as cinema as well um interesting and what's your take on striking the balance between brand building and performance-based activities and a media plan because i think during a pandemic because we were unable to be more in front of customers there was a mounting pressure from organization to be performance focus uh have you seen this and do you see like a balance of of brand building now and perf and performance base yeah it's it's something that we're constantly having conversations with our clients um and again there are nuances in between between those those conversations um particularly around kpis and how to measure brand building versus core performance advertising i think a healthy blend would be our ideal um conversation with clients we don't we want our clients to grow um so you know historically we do see that if they only focus on poor short-term performance goals there's there's a there's a long-term growth that is sort of left on the table um so we're kind of always making sure that we we have those conversations um whether that continues into the media plan that's not always the case and i think the economic conditions at the moment around the world some of our clients are looking at making sure that in the short term they're continuing to bring those sales in but also having a view to what next year and the year after looks like as well which which is kind of where we want our clients to be interesting you're talking about conversations uh with clients is transparency still a hot topic in the media in programmatic media space right now it's it's not as hot as it was a few years ago i think it's it's still it's still one of my top three topics in in the overall space um i think privacy is probably taken is the biggest thing biggest topic at the moment in in the digital space and i guess there's branches and subsets off that so um transparency i guess sits within within that space and it comes down to education um you know there's a lot of things that that we as advertisers um or as agencies on behalf of our advertisers need to be transparent with them particularly on fees and how we're buying the media um that's i don't think fundamentally going to change um it just we need to make sure that we're constantly having that conversation with our clients and sort of being true business partners as opposed to um not being as transparent i think being transparent is is probably um the best thing that we can ensure for our client relationships yeah for sure for sure so if we if we dive in a little bit on the out of home and digital out of home um discussion like where does it fit where where do you see out of home fitting in a media plan for your clients is there specific um verticals right now or specific brands that are requesting more and more out of them to be really part of your of their plan or you you you see this as a continuum from the past no changes um i think it's certainly changed um there is um a a resurgence with out of home clients are asking you know what's what are the options that are available to us now because obviously the market has changed um in terms of the role of out of home i still see it as brand building and a contextual play um that's kind of in in its simplest form i think that that works um a lot of our fashion clients are really lending to be out of home uh particularly when when they're launching a new a new season um so we're we're talking to our fashion clients at the moment about out of home um to to launch as a springboard for for their launch into the new season heading into summer here in australia so that's a really exciting conversation um i guess then um you know with with programmatic out of home it gives us the additional flexibility to be more tactical but also complement the wider media mix i think that's where we probably need to do a better job of distinguishing the role of traditional i guess out of home versus programmatic out of home um and that's probably a journey that we need to take our clients on interesting and and you're referring to a fashion brand um our brands in general or let's say use this example your fashion brand you work with uh to launch their new season um collections do you do do they normally ask for audience the specific audience to be reached like or they they prefer to buy traditionally like with vent specific venue type or environments that are they they prefer or is there a specific mix of both like audience based versus when you when you type um typically it's it's after the format it's a format yeah usually the the larger format providers um we kind of go after that i think we we do look at the audience particularly when it comes to region frequency and and that's certainly a consideration i guess where we can get nuanced is is using triggers particularly if it's raining um or if it's hot or cold um or if if certain news is prevalent um but also i think particular locations if we want to sort of really laser focus on one or two locations within a particular market we can do that as well um interesting and and do you uh see your client requesting also programmatically programmatic purchase of digital of out of home of digital out of home or they don't really touch that uh part of the equation in your district it's a bit of a chicken in the next scenario um obviously we want to take the the solutions to our clients and we always want to take them proactively i think programmatic out of home is is a proactive solution they typically lean would lean on us for the for that information um from time to time they might ask um and the brief might dictate that that we go down that route but generally speaking we would sort of take the opportunity to our clients and have a discussion around how we plan and buy it um particularly how we plan and buy it because it is different to traditional um out of home uh there are a few nuances and and we just need to sort of educate our client around the pros and cons of each way of buying yeah i see what you mean and in terms of kpis that are best to that you commonly use to showcase the the performance of the the digital album or programmatic digital album what are the main ones that are uh put forth in in in your plan and that your your client are requesting as well um at the moment um it's it's a very baseline kpi um we want to make sure that we're delivering in terms of budget but also um from a reach perspective um the impression multiplier goal and the costs um at the moment is is sort of what we what we look at um yes as as the reporting becomes more granular we can start to look at those spikes particularly when those impressions are served um on a on a week by week basis or a particular day basis you know for retail for example saturday would be um is typically sort of where people are out and about in retail centers also they're out and about at sporting venues so those impressions would naturally spike um it's it's kind of like we we look at the overall picture but also look at micro trends to see if we can uncover anything as well i see in with regards to broadsign ads formerly campsite was it your first ex hands-on experience planning and executing digital autobahn programmatically with uh broadsign ads or you had the experience before no um this uh we ran activity with broadside probably a few months ago um that was my first experience with broadside and did you find it easy for you to kind of um adapt to the workflow was it very similar to additional pure digital workflow uh was there similarities that you found interesting that you would like to talk about of course um firstly i found it extremely easy um a lot of a lot of digital platforms sometimes tend to over complicate things um broadsign kept it keep it very simple um it's logical um it's it's stepped so um i think the the design and the user interface allows for someone that is at all level of experience so whether you're you're an assistant or your coordinator you're working your way up to an account director or a team lead anyone can really anyone across that spectrum can jump in and plan an out of home campaign because it's that the user interface allows you to do so the the great thing as well is i think you can take that proposal and share it with the client immediately as opposed to there are a number of steps with other digital platforms that can take a bit of time so i think from a from a ease of use perspective it takes that box for transparency clients can see exactly what they're going to be buying and where particularly particularly with the location grid that's available and if there are particular exclusions or inclusions we can do that as well so it addresses um yeah addresses those two two things really really well so did you do thank you for that did you buy this a lot of home through the traditional way before have you done purchases of out of home traditionally that you would be able to compare the process programmatic process versus the traditional way of doing it yeah um with broadsign it was very very straightforward um traditionally we would have to manually ask each each provider what inventory they've got what specs they've got whereas with broadsign it was a lot more standardized um so we didn't have to get talked to four or five providers which will does take time because you have to you have to look at a veils you have to negotiate rates um you have to make sure that there are nuances particularly with different types of clients um the restrictions and say for example alcohol um but that time is saved when when you jump into a programmatic into a platform because a lot of those conversations um you don't really need to have um unless it's it's a lot more complex than than it needs to be and at the same time i think the the ease of which you can do it it saves you a lot of time effectively then you can spend a lot more time optimizing the campaign and also measuring the effectiveness totally makes sense that especially in a world where this alm doesn't represent the majority of your budget uh you you need to to optimize your time elsewhere as well um is there a specific feature that you like of broadsign ads that you experience often or um the the biggest feature i think was the the location grid um how dynamic it was and the screenshots of the actual formats within those those locations and so for example one of our clients didn't want to be on any gas stations so you know i'm saying here all the gas stations in the locale that you've that we've we've agreed on we've removed and you can see that we've removed hit these locations marked in in x uh i think that's the the it makes the conversation with the client much more productive um because you can understand that we're both in the same level of understanding you know look this is exactly what we can do and and you're showing them that in real time or as close to as possible and they want to change it i'm going to go let's let's remove retail or make sure that we have retail we can we can demonstrate that as well so i think the flexibility is is the best thing within within campsite uh broadside and sorry that's fine um so to this point um i'm just uh wanting to um is is this just as a follow-up question to an earlier question at the same time you you mentioned earlier that this a lot of walmart out of home is considered more of a brand building would you then say that it's the client requesting at time to see the roi on their digital out of home in terms of traffic store traffic because it's there's a it's something i i i encounter as well another conversation where we're considering out of alma as brand building but we're measuring it with lower funnel kind of matrix and i i'm we're trying to connect the dots and obviously sometimes the core goal of the campaign and the creative are direct response and but in many cases there are not direct response there are more brand building and more reminders of of uh of of the brand and key message uh do you do you think there's a place for both like a time be more brand building matrix so bren live uh and in some other cases more looking at uh how much have we driven store traffic or how much have we driven uh web traffic uh or app download or things like that yeah there's a place for both um i think it it's being upfront with the client on the campaign and the role of the channel um being really sort of clear on how we are going to measure it and i think there's always going to be those blurred lines um i think we need to make sure that we're we're educating our client on the role and when we can implement some of those strategies within programmatic out of home i think it's really important to make sure that we're having those conversations upstream interesting um so in in the future do you uh you said there is more and more um demand for digital autobahn from your client or out of home from your client um so i'm assuming it will be incorporated uh rather on a more frequent basis in the in the future but do you think it it's becoming even more relevant in the world without third party cookies and where context is really king [Music] of course um it's it's the nature of the channel is going to evolve it's going to become easier to to plan and buy um and you know as such advertisers are going to be leaned into that experience i mean context is definitely playing playing a huge role here and we're with with cookies being you know going uh when when google say they're going to be going in that sort of late 2023 so clients need to have um you know multiple strategies and need to diversify and and one of those things is making sure that they're placing their ads um or their their brand messaging um in the right contextual environments as well absolutely so it's a it it fits very well in the overall plan uh in that perspective um what would you say are uh the key roadblocks for the adoption the wide adoption of programmatic digital out of um or digital a lot of them in general uh from your perspective from what you've seen from your client or heard from your client um specifically on on our clients i think it's our clients within frontier i think it's an education piece to just to understand the role uh and and when we should start to consider it um broadly speaking i think it's the evolution of the technology um i think there still are nuances um depending on who you talk to within within the space um so there's definitely there's definitely room to grow it's it's it's it's quite immature in terms compared to other channels and environments so this is a steep learning curve that's probably what i'd say is is is the biggest opportunity but at the same time that that that maturity compared to other channels is also a bit of a roadblock where you've got traditional marketers that are a little that are that can be hesitant to jump into a new environment particularly when at times it hasn't hasn't completely been proved just yet interesting uh thank you for that uh would you mind telling in like 30 seconds or less what what what's your opinion about broadsign ads and what did you what do you find the most uh the the bigger benefits of the platform in your opinion um i really like the ease of use of the platform that the user interface is extremely um user-friendly um the the planning tools and the flexibility to to chop and change proposals uh within within a matter of seconds really uh is is a huge benefit to particularly agencies where um you know historically they have been time poor um again it's not too dissimilar to to traditional digital platforms so you think yeah other other digital platforms the workflow is largely similar so it's it's quite easy to learn um and i think what i've seen is the ability to layer in multiple multiple targeting strategies um location triggers um data triggers and the ability to to layer more in um has been really uh is a strength um i guess what i'd probably wear to see is where that will evolve is advanced reporting capabilities um as we start to layer in those targeting strategies um i think clients will naturally demand that um again coming down is is having a conversation around what are the core kpis and how we're going to make sure that we're measuring the right metrics very good thank you