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which invited guests discuss current research with the institute's researchers the round table today carries the title asylum in Europe implications of the new pact on migration and Asylum and the European Parliament elections this new pact on migration and Asylum was first presented by the EU Commission in September 2020 as a means to overhaul the eu's common Asylum policy based on the duin convention from 1990 after many rounds of negotiations the European Parliament voted in favor of the pack in 2024 with the new pact it was hoped that Central controversial issues of the old regulations could be solved especially the lack of cooperation and responsibility sharing between the member states of which this image speaks for others the new pact was a way for the EU to regain control was a fun line for instance that Europeans will decide who comes to the EU and who can stay not people Smugglers at the same time academics and Human Rights group warned that the new pack was inhumane and created a cruel system today we will discuss the implications of the new pact on migration and Asylum and the European Parliament elections by looking at the political Arena on the one hand and on research about migration policies on the other let me now introduce our panelists Sabina H is professor at the UN Institute for cultural anthropology or european ethnology at the University of gingan she's also co-founder and director of the center for global migration studies the seic at the same University in addition she's co-founder of the network for critical migration and Border regime studies research crit net which was founded in 2008 thematically she has focused on migration regimes production of borders and borders as conflict zones with research in Border areas in different border areas in on the balcan or in Poland and furthermore she's interested in gender and Asylum policy T zjv in the middle is researcher at tilberg University at the department of criminal law and he's also a guest at our Institute here in gingan he has a very multi-disciplinary and international background with decrees in um political science comparative public policy and international human rights law with uh from Greece Denmark and the Netherlands she has he has previously worked on private sponsorship programs in Canada and now is working on a project on cre and Malta as border zones um of the changing EU migration and Asylum regime Marcus angler is a political scientist at dat Sim the German Center for integration immigration research in Berlin he has done research on German European and Global Refugee and migration policies for many years and has also acted as a political consultant he's a member of the board of directors of the netw for so the network Force MRA and research and also heads the for's blog the blog of the network my name is tabia Shaga I'm a postd doctor researcher here at the Institute and I will lead through today's Roundtable discussion so please join me in welcoming our panelist for [Applause] today a few notes on how we proceed we will at first have two rounds of questions on the podium first foregrounding political the political Arena and in the second round focusing more on research about migration policies after that we will open the discussion to the audience So within the room please use the microphone here in the middle for your question or contribution when you are part of the online audience you can also participate in the discussion either by directly commenting or asking questions in the YouTube chat or when you are not registered with YouTube you can also send an email to to chat at MMG mg. de as mentioned shortly in introduction the new pact on migration and Asylum is meant to address long-standing shortcomings and imbalances in terms of solidarity and responsibility sharing so to dive into the discussion Marcus what are the key differences between the new pack on migration and Asylum and the previous EU migration and Asylum policy framework and as as a related question what are the interests and roles of different European actors concerning The Pact okay that's quite a question to start with um but I mean I mean you mentioned already the Dublin convention right which has been uh I guess first adopted in 1990 right so that already shows uh something and I guess it came into Falls in 97 so we are actually talking about three decades of you know having some sets of of of rules um that try to yeah on the one hand organize Asylum but also I mean yeah control the movement of of people um and I mean you know policy makers like to say this is the new pack is kind of an historic achievement right um and of course I I disagree I mean on the one hand there have been all kinds of reforms before and there will be other reforms you know it's uh of course this is a larger reform um but first of all yeah it's it's not historic I'd say I mean they refer to you know a period after 2015 where there was already a reform process that that failed right but that's a very shortterm um perspective um Let Me Maybe say also that um you know many scholars in the beginning when this europeanization process started um assumed that you know the main Motivation by States was actually to lower any kind of you know protection standard and I'd say that's a bit too easy of an assessment for some some time we so I mean you know this uh those common European standards actually also had some positive impact I mean we'll probably you know spend most of time today criticizing this so that's that's why I wanted to say this uh you know protection rates um went up I mean this is not only you know European the European level that had an impact here but I mean if you compare in Germany but I'd like to hear also from other countries maybe the 9s with today right we have the feeling it's all about restriction restriction restriction but if you compare the levels of Rights people have yeah on a much higher level right and this also has to do with EU um uh EU policym um but I mean yeah this this is kind of a mixed um um you know assessment looking uh back to the past I mean on the one it organizes protections for I mean hundred thousands of people but also it it's extremely violent to to other people it even kills people right those rules I mean non-compliance with those rules so um but you asked about the new ele elements right and it's um it's a complicated system it's just checked you mean the legal the legal text is 500 pages right um and that's not everything um all together 1,000 yeah yeah it's uh and that's that's maybe already one element we talked about it also that this new system gets more and more complex uh which will make it very difficult to implement but also for transparency reasons you know also in public debates nobody will really understand what are the rules what is an implementation issue I mean there all kinds of news you know this is really a challenge um for for for democracies for us as re researchers as well so but maybe let me highlight kind of maybe the most important changes right um and if if I miss some of course you you you you can uh add I mean first of all there's this new uh idea of screening people at the border so people that would arrive at the external border will be screened and a screening procedure I mean they will be detained for a couple of days uh and and after this screening I mean it will be decided which Asylum procedure they will you know be um be channeled into I mean there different um procedures then that can that can take place so there are border procedures um you know at least on on paper the ideas that um some um Asylum Seekers protection Seekers will end up in those border procedures I guess you know I just name uh you know very briefly the main elements we have then time to discuss uh and there's also border return procedure um so the ideas people will maybe not I mean from policy makers point of view most people will not even enter the EU um because this also is uh you know taking place in in the scenario where they're legally not in the EU I mean despite the fact that there of course in the EU um so then we have um you you you you mention it this kind of uh you know lack of solidarity or responsibility sharing uh we will now have some system of you know mandatory but flexible solidarity I guess uh Saina has and will in the next round develop a bit more I mean what it is it's some progress maybe but it remains a very weak uh solidarity system um so um and then I already mentioned you know increased complexity uh what we what we are seeing you know there are different procedures like you know border procedure regular asy procedure like faster procedures people will you know depending on how they entered and countries of origin will have access to different procedures we already have this to some extent today but it will be um you know more systematically and then we have something you know many people like to called kind of derogatory uh regimes yeah meaning that in some specific context uh different set of rules will apply we could also say maybe that you know what was kind of illegal up until now is legalized but um so we we can maybe distinguish kind of a scenario of instrumentalization right where um you know the belus case is the most kind of obvious case where you know other governments try to pressure the EU by facilitating or sending migrants refugees uh towards the EU so then states can react differently we also have two other scenarios crisis scenario and force measure force measure would be something like another pandemic uh probably and crisis is a scenario where a lot of people like maybe a 2015 scenario lots of people arrive and and then different rules will apply okay no no time to to go into details but this this is and and states will uh make use of this I mean they they actually Lobby it for it right I mean uh you know the instrumentalization scenario will probably be used by you know um countries like Finland Poland um and and um maybe Greece um and then um yeah Spain may be the crisis scenario on the canary I mean governments already said they will use those you know new kind of uh sub uh or subsets of of of of rules um what is also a bit new is kind of a very even more I mean already so-called secondary movement meaning you know a s SE moving from one country to others is already now I mean illegalized but the rules will be a lot uh tougher right for people I mean I don't think it will we can discuss later on what it will will do but um really policymakers try to make it even even harder than it's in the past uh maybe some more kind of positive elements in in the whole pack is kind of a resettlement framework uh EU resettlement framework which I think will not much have impact I mean it's you know it's not mandatary and um so States will still decide will I take in you know you know 10,000 people from resettlement or not or from this country and there also some labor migration elements in there but I think also they don't will won't have much impact so um I mean I will yeah to maybe to um um to come to an end for in this in this first round I I I still like to also talk about continuities right because you ask about the new things and and you know what is different but I also clearly uh would like to say what has not been uh you know uh changed and adopted first of all is there is no uh you know improve mement in when it comes to safe and legal access to the EU I mean you know it's maybe the the most important thing to to organize how can people even you know not risk their life and find protection in you there's really nothing that changed there um um and also when it comes to um we can discuss of course you know severe human rights violations we are seeing I don't see I mean there are some you know mechanisms here and there but I think they're not very powerful so this will also continue I guess um and um and also I mean this you know we have we have to looking a little bit on on the process also I mean who are the actors behind you you ask about the actors so it's mainly member states you know governments European Parliament and commission of course all you know NGS also um but in a different role and what what was the main you know from my point of view the main motivation of the states it was not improving Refugee protection in Europe not at all you know uh it was um I think on the one hand um sending a message to kind of you know voters that might vote for the far right I mean you hear this all the time you know we have to agree on something because otherwise people will vote for the far right we can discuss you know whether they achieved uh you know something here or not and the other goal was um reduce political conflict between member states right I mean and here I I'm not I mean I I maybe you know the conflict might be for some time you know at at the at the lower level than it was in in the past but I I don't think it has been really resolved um maybe that is something where really the next question also uh fits into because then uh I would like to ask you about the Border zones so we have heard about one of the that solidarity is one of the main discussion points of the new pact so what does solidarity mean for the countries on the external borders of the EU such as Greece or Malta Italy Poland or Croatia um so what are the interests also of these border countri so maybe we start with Sabina and then will follow yeah it's really uh difficult uh to really to Define what are the perspective of the Border countries on the issue of solidarity I would say nobody really wants to have the migrants so I mean one thing is that everybody wants to get them away I just just came back from a trip to Croatia Slovenia and Bosnia and it was just at the very day when the new pact was decided on when we were there at the BOS at the Slovenian Croatian border and met this you must really say poor border guards um having to protect this like kilometers of a fence construction with a lot of holds in inside so it was a totally um interesting scenario so the fence was there but also this very much this many holes were there and this one Border guard car patrolling and we just have seen that a group of migrants um crossed uh the river the small River and the fence construction and a couple of younger boys they were standing there with the police guys and showing them their hurted necks and then we approached this this group of people and um asked the police the Border guards what he thinks about the new pact and he just said it won't change anything thing so people go continue to go to cross and he pointed to the holes and you see how the border is purus and Croatia is not doing the job Bosnia is not doing the job Serbia is not doing the job so in in a way he pointed you know to all this countries Transit countries which are supposed to to be the buffer zones The Waiting rooms and they all they all I mean with the help of smuggling neck words and very a Wordly and very transparent somehow with the help also of you organization and NGS they're trying to make the transit possible so people colleagues in in the Balon speak about a shadow Corridor and this is somehow you know you still remember all this um news reports on on push backs incredible push back practice by Croatia and there's lots of violence uh Bosnia Serbia as well so the level of violence is really high the level of of of dehumanizing living conditions is really high but the crossing takes place and the Border card said what should we do we are just you know the two guys here and the border is long and the others don't do the job so on the one hand this is certainly n answer to the solidarity everybody tries to get rid of in in a way the PCT what is the PCT really doing it's hardening uh the Border as a main mechanism of control selection it's hardening uh deportation alongside so the Border procedure is highly connected the screening and the FastTrack border procedure is highly connected to kinds of deportation and detention what is a pack as well doing is kind of blurring a lot of legal standards so it's blurring somehow what is an open Camp what is a closed camp and where does detention and incarceration you know starts and and especially in this blurred blurred circumstance and you certainly can talk more about the situation we already have in the islands where camps are at the same time somehow detention facilities where administrative detention is already being prolonged extended and in fact this will be now in in a lot of um of what NOS are are you know uh kind of pro pro for prophesying um but uh this will be even getting getting worse and so a lot of our colleagues in this border regions they already see that the camp have been built partly in Croatia and Bulgaria they are now still empty they are financed by already by the U uh but this all this camps they certainly can be turned into also closed camps and I mean we just visited this run camp in in Bosnia called leaper and there is also a Detention Facility inside so you already see how they are already you know somehow embedded in each other but coming back to the so-called solidarity me mechanism I mean this this is compared to what the the new pact is doing it's putting more load on the on the border countries it's putting more load on on on the border zone or on the borders they should do the job they should control they should so sort people out and Define who is getting into the fast track who is getting into a normal Asylum procedure and we already see the situation on the islands in the Greek Islands what a legal Mass it is there and how poorly monitoring systems have been implemented and certainly a camp somewhere in Bosnia somewhere in Bulgaria is certainly also a kind of of for problem concerning monitoring so the solidarity mechanism is in a kind um really a kind of a joke because uh it it's not anymore like the Dublin uh system has been saying the Dublin system was a kind of a more General mechanism which also included rights rights for refugees rights of refugees that they have the right that the issue is being heard that they have an asylum claim there were also plenty of Rights inside for family reunification so as there were still Dublin was always criticized also for the secondary movement but still it entailed some kind of Rights also for refugees this solidar this new solidarity mechanism talks about um uh a certain number I think for the first round there's some kind of 30,000 people should be it's a more or less a resettlement system scheme and um I mean and we know how resettlement scheme have been working there was also after 2015 one in place um this um this willing countries um and then as a flexible me mechanism um countries can they if they take off the 30,000 group of people if they take people if they pay money 20,000 pro pro person not being taken or if they send material troops technique and already I think four countries said that they won't join the uh the solidarity mechanism Tusk also announced just recently saying that even he doesn't want to pay money I mean Orban certainly also already indicated that he won't take people and he won't take uh pay money so more or less uh perhaps and um materials bads infrastructures are being sent around I think it's a mess and it's not a kind of a very transparent um thing and I would not call it solidarity mechanism at all it's a kind of a drop in the ocean and people will arrive and I mean Italy milone is very clever she knows what the new pact will will bring about and I mean her Albanian deal is already an indications that she I mean it's discussed certainly a lot of iism from a legal point of view MoneyWise it's incredible I think um um it's also like 30 I have to look it up if you want to to to have the numbers but what's in fact doing it's a kind of uh track change so she takes the people being incepted in the Mediterranean I mean this is for people being incepted on the Mediterranean and not people who arrived at the Italian Shores so she the the the the the idea is to take the people who are kept uh or yeah rescued in the Mediterranean then they are taken to Albania in Albania they get an Italian um procedure by Italian personnel and Italian judges and the people who get uh a negative answer then they are deported back to Italy via ships and then from Italy they are going deported and but I mean you know the camp has a kind of a um fixed um there fixed number of places I think it's around 300 3,000 three per month they the idea is that the camp take 3,000 per month a kind of yeah a kind of a you know a circle around but I think it's just for 300 or 500 places so what they believe in the Balkan is that the people are brought by the Italian ship to Albania s they leave and they're put in this Camp they leave this camp on the balcan route and this is a kind of very clever way to circumvent the pack and the water procedure but then it's it's still the question I mean if so much more pressure is actually put on the border countries why did they agree to it yeah this is a very Maybe instrumentalization it's a very interesting question indeed why they agreed on that uh first I wanted to start with Sabina started with the assumption that no one wants the migrants I want to give you a very short example from a Greek island actually where a couple of months ago the big International NGO organized a fair job fair and the hotels on the island were fighting who is going to go first in order to recruit from the camp now Greece changed the legislation uh recently ly and they now allow Asylum Seekers to start working after 2 months after they have sub um registered their Asylum application in the past this was 6 months and now if you go to 80% of the hotels on this island they they have employed uh refugees from the camps I just give it as an example that even in this situation at the moment there are someone some there are some people who see some kind of value that potentially can be extracted if even from the most desperate people that seemingly have nothing left now to return to the uh responsibility uh and solidarity Nexus um in Greece I have to say there was no debate about the new PCT the governing party presented it as success something that happened in many places they presented it as something that they put forward they supported while on the other hand the left parties in opposition opposed and the far right par is opposed so they were kind of the the the the the speakers for the the progress that this p is achieving in the European system Etc if we looked at what they voted on and what they agreed on the situation is much worse I would argue for the Border countries and I give you examples now we talk about first about the responsibility in terms of responsibility there are several things that change first of all the first country of Entry Criterion is maintained if you enter through Greece you need to stay there get your application examined there if you get recognized as Refugee then you need to continue living there right so it's even enforced it's we will see how much it's going to be enforced of course in terms of practical implementation but until now you you could get a cessation of of this first country of Entry Criterion if the person crosses and then after 12 months you're not responsible as Greece now this period is prolonged it's TW uh 20 months so it becomes longer if you arrive in Greece and then you have a family in Germany Greece can submit a take charge request to Germany because you have a family in Germany you should go there Germany should examine your application this in the past you had 3 months deadline to do it now it becomes two months the Greek um you know Administration is not well known for their uh even though in Asylum they're doing quite well now they're not super well known for for you know performing let's say on a on a really high level so they were missing even these deadlines for 3 months in many occasions now the two month probably they will be missing more and this means that Greece becomes responsible for this when you have take back request so I did my application in Greece disappeared appeared in Germany Germany instead of sending take back request to Greece now can just send notification you need to take this person Greece has only two weeks to reply if they don't reply and they don't present really good evidence that the person cannot be returned the person is returned if the person abson Germany uh the person could wait 18 months and then could resubmit in in Germany get the application exam and here now this period is 30 months three years sorry 3 years 36 months so you see how all this responsibility measures are actually not in favor of Greece they're obviously in favor of other countries in Western Europe and then in order to correct for all this we agree on the solidarity mechanism that we hope is going to work we hope I mean the governments of of the Border countries now in terms of solidarity we have two levels so the countries are going to say okay I'm going to take this number and I'm going to pay for this each country has a fair share calculate with a formula and then let's say Germany says I'm going to to take 50% of what my fair share is in terms of relocations and I'm going to pay for the other 50% the minimum for one year is 30,000 as mentioned and then if we end up in a situation where the 30,000 qu is not met let's say there are 20,000 pledges the other 10,000 are going to be delivered as solidarity in terms of what they call responsibility offsets what this means is if we already have 10,000 Asylum Seekers who are in Germany in Netherlands Etc and should be returned to Greece because they were registered there then automatically the Western countries where these people are are not going to return them and this would be counted as solidarity this is something that is happening now so what the P does basically we take one dysfunctional system that we know very well that is completely dysfunctional and we present it as a new legislation so something that now became functional this is the way it's going to be this is the how legally we are going to operate now this the the commission even encourages the the member states to use this responsibility offsets but guess which countries are not going to be able to contribute in terms of responsibility offsets so how many people do you think cross from Greece and then go to live in Poland or Hungary or Lithuania Estonia ltia and then think also about a situation where now courts in some countries say no you cannot return people to Hungary or you cannot return people to Greece so how does exactly this solidarity mechanism would work for relocation to Hungary when the courts say that you cannot send people to Hungary in the general procedure I cannot imagine that so obviously there will be a lot of dysfunctionality in this new solidarity mechanism obviously the countries are not going to the Border countries are not going to benefit as much as they hope or they Envision to do and with all the responsibility shift on them we are going to continue having one dysfunctional system system which however now is going to be presented as and branded as a really beautiful new order of European solidarity and that's my humble assessment of course yeah thank you um we will talk about imple implementation now because I mean the idea is that the new pack is now implemented within the next two years and we have already heard what kind of factors are influencing this implementation and the complexity also of the new pact so from the point of research on which factors will the implementation Depend and what are the main challenges that one can expect Marcus yeah I mean um you know it's connected to what I what I wanted to um to add or um I mean for me um you know why because why why did Greece you know uh vote for the PCT and and the other countries as well um on the one hand even on paper it's not you know in their favor but of course they can still do what they've you know done I mean in the past it's just not register people they will leave so they can this I mean of course then Germany other countries will blame them but what can they do right um they can lower their standards so that courts will say it's not safe to send people back to Greece um so they have that's how I don't know if if you share this assessment but they still have all the you know cards in their hands and and actually not implementing it or implementing it you know very partially um uh and um the other I guess U common idea I mean you know we we we we discussed amongst us with this picture behind us is um a correct display of of things in a way it is you know because even if people are entered the European Union I mean this mechanism of who takes responsibility is not so clear but I mean the common I mean ideas actually to keep people out you know to prevent them that was that's actually the main motivation controlling the movement of people even more uh with Third Country agreements all with violence I mean you know both options are are being used um and you talked about you know push backs and uh I mean this is what uh the Greek government is doing um on an everyday basis and and they're lying about it and I mean I don't know if you some of you had the chance yesterday to see this leaked video of this Greek Border guard person who you know in front of the camera says yeah yeah I mean you know it's not we not doing anything illegal here and then you know just and then the camera is off and then he calls I don't know why but on the phone to some colleague apparently and and uh you know didn't know that the the sound was still recording and of course he he says all the things they're doing right um and so this is U I don't expect you know any any any change there because even the governments still have those cards on their table uh so we really need to move away from you know I I know you didn't mean your question you know implementation what the challenge and so on uh you didn't mean it like this but I mean the the European commission and so on they're portraying this as being something purely Technical and uh and we are all you know the the common interest is to improve standards and to have I mean if if you read those you know documents and communication from from from from the commission is is in a way ridiculous or you get crazy or it reminds me of you know non-democratic societies where there's some kind of Norm defined everybody knows it's not what's happening it's the reality is something completely else and even policy makers notice I mean I sometimes you know talk to them and blame them for you know being totally naive or um when they say now we have this super well functioning system and and reality is something else we we know we aware that you know reality looks quite different but we we we we choose to send you know those um messages of control and having this system to to our voters to the public who will I mean not be ever be in a position to understand those rules even we don't really fully understand even most policy makers don't understand them they're too complex um so um this brings us back you know you you ask about um implementation what are the motivations of the different actors right and and how how will the interactions actually take place because in the solidarity mechanism I mean there is a new thing on the table so the commission will have some assessment and then we say okay this country needs maybe solidarity you know they will make some calculations and then then we will also see you know whether countries will actually offer some relocation uh places or not um this an open question but even then uh and that's my my last maybe take on this um the whole system as it's designed now but also the reform um I mean completely ignores the agencies of Migrant refugees it's not there I mean you know this kind of uh statement yeah you people have right to protection but we decide where they get protection so could be Rwanda or I mean in the Greek hotspot um even you can criticize this but you can even say even if you would normatively accept the statement it's still miles away from what's Happening because even with all the violence we are seeing the mobility of people who have a lot to lose or much to gain cannot be stopped like by the two border guards you know just mentioned you can have a a super expensive fence there and and drones and everything but people who have nothing else to do than to save their lives or to find a way to to protect protection they will eventually make you know make it to to Europe so the whole question is is is not and that's why I expect the the patterns of movements as we seeing now which is you know it's not there's no equal distribution this will not change much I guess I might be wrong but it's my assessment uh the question is what rights will the people have you know and here as uh governments try to be you know very tough uh it might be you know lots of people in in limbo for many years um that's oh how I expect things to to happen zabina research has shown that borders not only have external but also internal effects So based on your own research what do you think could be effects of the new pact on the EU and EU societies and maybe related to that also when looking at the results for the European Parliament elections are there signs that impact pacify anti immigrant Waters as it was hoped for yeah thank you I mean um I I was just part of a research group in in beld um and the title of our research group was internalizing borders and in fact what we did was asking us if or why and you already said it so um I mean there are millions of of Euros bent on the fortification of different border infrastructures and we have seen since 2015 an enormous kind of violation of Rights border violence increasing and still the people are coming and Poland showcases this very well I mean this is a massive 5 m tall um incredible tough um fence construction and and but the people are still crossing and and and in enormous numbers and I mean the increase of people through in Germany says quite um you know it is quite a a good indic indication how many people still are crossing via the bellus Polish but this fence even s it really didn't do its job it should do in the in the official Narrative of the Polish government but what it does was massively racializing the Polish society and and it was and the Not only there the old um people government the old nationalist authoritarian government used this kind of of offense spectacle and Border spectacle to massively um um to massively somehow mobilize uh the the the people in a kind of a very authoritarian racial way um even Tusk now the conservative liberal government is is going on in not in such a nasty a word way it's not really mobilizing all institutions and and students writing letters to the soldiers saying thanks that they you know that they protect the country so the whole narrative was a kind of a narrative of a mass invasion of a hybrid threat of a um you know migration as a weapon um to really produce and certainly the the Russian invasion of the Ukraine and the war is is is is somehow also kind of uh helping somehow and it's a it's a producing a kind of a more migration Nexus and they making it possible not only that very factual that there's a incredible militarization of the Border Zone but the whole narrative is is one of nation threat to National Security and and and we see us as well I mean the Greek government um has turned the last conservative Greek government used the situation on the island massively also not only to criminalize um um noos and and solidarity but used it quite a lot in a kind of authoritarian nationalist mobilization and and for for an kind of for their own political um survival we see it in as well in Denmark and the Netherlands so I think um what we really can say is that the Border infrastructure and the hardening of the border is not doing the jobs but it producing a spectacle it makes it possible to produce to to to problematize migration as a kind of a threat to National SEC security and and what it did especially after the invasion of the Ukraine is certainly even more so producing Europe as a wide Christian projects and and if you read the testimonies of people getting push backed they they mostly tell that border guards uh you know re refer to them in a kind of you not serving you're not white you're not Christian so pretending or practicing a kind of a uh Crusaders uh gatekeeper they are protecting uh Europe and this has certainly been also to to see in a connection with the climate crisis discourse with the with the with the situation um the Russian threat so especially the Eastern European countries Lithuania is also incredible restrictive it's incredible violent against and you see a kind of yeah kind of a really I think a Waring um um entanglement between the this kind of new war and War conflict situation and and migration deir before uh opening up the discussion I have a last question for you you are involved in a Max plank research group the new guards rebordering the southeast Mediterranean in an age of migration which looks at the role of Cyprus gree and Malta in the common European Asylum system so can you please give us some ideas about your research so your M question methodology and also some first results yeah of course if you allow me for a minute just to address to to fit in the conversation in Greece indeed we have this shift in general viewing migration through security lens after the not performing so well at the last European elections for example the Prime Minister did some shifts so the minister of migration and Asylum we had was changed and now we have as minister of migration and Asylum a person who served before as a minister of defense you see what is the message there so where did the votes go from the governing party in Greece they went to further to the right actually the last elections and you see clearly at least in my view the message and then in terms of implementation something that we didn't mention which is very important and you tell me ing to you who would agree on that in the Dublin system we didn't have that but we are going to have the following thing now if you do not meet your responsibility um requirements that I described in the first part of the conversation then the countries that should support you in terms of solidarity participating in the solidarity mechanism they are not obliged to perform their you know solidarity entitlements so basically if Greece is not taking back the people that Germany or other countries request from them to take back then if this evolves into a significant shortcoming or they don't have the capacity or they don't have the reception centers Etc they don't do the examination on time then the other countries can say we don't participate in the solidarity pool when it comes to GRE this is in back right someone signed this thing anyway uh on the on the project that we are working on so we started about a year ago with Steven verto and mikalis Melos who is the project leader we have every year a meeting in different country we set up from the very beginning um uh Max Blan Partners group which includes 11 people from three different countries that you mentioned Greece Cyprus and Malta plus two experts at the European level we meet with them once a year the first meeting that we organized was in Berlin last year and there we basically uh put down the agenda for the subsequent meetings uh about a month ago month and a half we had our second meeting this time in Athens and um there we discussed an emerging I would say in the last year's phenomenon I will give you only one example of this to see what are our current findings um this is what we call nudging forward so since in the last 10 years let's say Greece has given protection to about 140 to 150,000 people who ask for Asylum there now I quote the Greek migration Minister the previous one since 1st of January 2021 we have given protection to 70,000 people and we have issued 110,000 Refugee passports to these people so he has mentioned it openly in Greek to the Greek audience on many occasions that the people just receive protection get their passports and come to Western Europe to reapply for Asylum the courts in Germany have Haled the returns of these people to Greece and said that Germany has to examine their applications here we have about 75,000 ing to our last last assessment we don't really have the numbers so we don't know how many of those people are in Germany how many are in the Netherlands Etc but you think about how many of the 140 50,000 that received protection in gree since 2013 are actually still there and we have a lot of complications out of it right because if you received protection in Greece and then you are allowed to reapply for asylum in Germany and Germany will examine your application what happens if they deny it in the Netherlands we had a case where a German where the German Asylum uh service the indd said well we looked at the evidence that this person presented to us he was granted protection in Greece but we have no idea on what basis this happened so we want to reject this person what should we do and these questions are now at the European court of justice in order to assess what should happen in this situation so this is part of what we are working on we have noticed that similar things not exactly the same happen in different countries we have nudging people around in Cyprus from one jurisdiction to another Cyprus is a very complex in terms of um legal and practical jurisdiction who governs what part of the island and we have similar but uh similar situation let's say in Italy where Italy doesn't accept anymore Asylum Seekers back from other countries because they claim that they're in a crisis situation and don't have capacity to do so so this type of Mobility is what we focused on for our meeting in Athens and then we will continue of course looking at other topics in our next meetings in Malta and in Cyprus thank you I would now like to open the discussion to the audience are there already questions from the audience um as as long as you make up your mind I can I would also like I have another question I would like to ask the the um and yeah maybe you just stand there if you have a question so that I see that um there is a question from the audience um so again from the point of research how do you think migrants will react to the new pact on migration and Asylum you hinted at that already a little bit but maybe um can go into more detail and um the others might might then also add to that yeah I mean I mean this is also more General point right and I'd like to make also um the connection to the current um migration Asylum debate in Germany more more generally and of course this probably also applies to other countries right so we're having all kinds of reforms um you know internal border controls um payment cards other things that they're all based on the assumption that okay if we you know introduce a few more restrictions make life harder for people people they will no longer come um then often you have this comparison also can maybe standards here in Germany you know especially welfare uh entitlements are higher than other countries if you could reduce them a bit you know less people would come I mean uh opposition from uh you know um conservative party even go so far that they would like to change the Constitution right I mean I don't know the standards are already lower than normal uh standards but all of this you know uh is um is very stands in very um yeah evident conscious to to research findings I mean where where you can see that those policies they have only uh very limited I'm not saying they have no impact but they have limited impact you know the the factors that really uh have the the strongest impact on the movement of people I mean first of all of course we need to speak about countries of origin right why are they fleeing why are they leaving their countries uh if you you know play around with the welfare benefits here you know people who flee a war I mean it's not their concern right um but um but then also if they move on of course I'm aware of the whole system not being perfect and there all kind of all kinds of selectivity mechanisms you know I mean that's that's what policies do I mean they increase selectivity they they increase risks they make you know the the fleeing to to Europe more expensive I mean and then of course it's it's always a very dynamic system also adjustments making Smugglers have new you know strategies people I mean it it never you know stands still but I mean bottom line is the factors that really have the most impact is uh communities family members being present in in the country I mean so many studies show this um but then also I mean you know the overall assessment of a country as being politically stable you know offering kind of really safety but also life opportunities you know um those factors you know cannot be changed by policy makers I mean they cannot you know uh kind of make let's say let's take Germany make Germany you know undemocratic destroy the welfare system I mean uh destroy the labor market I mean those factors and and because they need to do something they always play around with the same things I mean it's sometimes this is even ridiculous you know if you look at maybe 10 20 30 years they always come up with similar ideas you know just to do something uh to to um to demonstrate the public um that they that they're that they're doing something so I expect um yeah I mean not not so much impact on the numbers um of course we we we also see um you know very radical ideas being discussed on I mean getting rid of Asylum as an individual right you know in in Germany or Europe at all I mean you know that's and this is coming from a mainstream conservative party in Germany right I mean they portray this as um okay we want to save lives you know to to I mean change incentives people no longer taking dangerous Roots what we just you know stop Asylum as a right and we introduce kind of um yeah um you know um resettlement programs um but we we decide but I mean this is I don't think it will ever be implemented um but yeah I mean you know that's why I don't know how far they will actually go I mean I made you know I talked about the '90s and saying that the level of Rights we are still seeing in many places in Europe and also in Germany is a lot higher but of course it's we are going to a lot to another very heavy restrictive turn and I'm personally not sure how far it will go right um yeah but um yeah just to you know to um to say it one last time I mean all those policies they have very limited impact on and it's a problem for policy makers if you talk to them they say you tell me you know whatever we do it doesn't change anything and but we need to you know show that we are controlling the whole thing it's I understand for them it's I mean if I'm in their you know position they cannot tell the public you know we just stop it it's just free choice um people decide I mean this is for them maybe in a different world right I mean then we talk about the bigger picture and narratives that might change and I mean the story you shared about the hotels you know I didn't hear this before first time I hear this about hotel owners on the Greek Islands kind of competing for kind of the labor workforce of people in in the refugee camp this is one of the I mean it's not maybe the perfect solution but this is gives me a little bit of Hope and uh and of course there are also problems but I mean this is where the where we are heading I mean demography demographic aging um taking place at a speed and and level which people haven't understood it will be really really heavy and this might be the future um yeah thank you I've seen there is a one question from the audience and um yeah maybe uh if you want join join your discussion Kar shun here from the max plank Institute in gutan um I was wondering I mean on on the one hand I'm I'm still puzzled why anyone wants this system yeah because basically you say it's in no country's interest but somehow they participate and many countries seem to believe or at least Le they say we need a European system I'm I'm always wondering whether one should actually say well let's do without a European system I mean why do we all assume that is needed but I I would like to get you to answer from a perspective what of Asylum rights Defenders yeah Marcos you started off with saying that the level of protection has actually gone up in the past couple of years yeah so how is that linked yeah with having a European system weak as it is and would are there Asylum rights protagonists who uh favor having a European system or are they all rather for National systems and where what benefits and risks do they see h want to yeah I would also argue that the European Union said there was a phase a period in time when the europeanization of the border and migration policies was actually a kind of a edification and brought about a couple of of of standards and norms and I mean still they are somehow connected to the European convention on human rights and and which has been taken but you know it better as a legal scholar which has been taken into also the European um European convention on European of European rights no European Convention of Human Rights yeah exactly so I mean the European Union globally um I mean still is is is has a quite High um regularization has a quite uh High uh rights standard with because it's coupled or it's connected with the European um human rights system and you have still this two courts the European court for human rights as well which I mean okay also there we have seen a couple of of uh backlashes and it's certainly also not isolated from the general debate but I mean in 1993 um with a big Coalition the the chairman right to Asylum was more or less um you know um how can I cancelled banded banded but I mean Then There came this European Union process with with a um common um European Asylum system and there um the the qualitation um a with a different directive so they brought about a right standard and procedural rights and and rights concerning also reception politics and the qualification directive so I think it there was something and and you also under the mstom commission there was also a different vision of the border so the Border I would say before 2015 there was a vision of having a kind of really a kind of a highly selective soft border which is which already with a enormous externalization but still the belief what that the Border could be invisibilized due to biometric somehow and could be highly selective and pick out Soul which shouldn't enter but still there was a a a narrative that um I mean it's still somehow in place this humanitarian narrative we are we are controlling roots to save lives which certainly but still I mean there was this this belief we have mixed migration flows and there are people in need of protection and those should get their protection and already at that time people died in the Mediterranean but it was not not an a word L to die policy it was not an a word policy of really what ghof Hanson called non departure non arrival policy so I think I think really 2015 was a kind of a paradigm shift and from that time onwards you have seen Paradigm Shift okay the duin system never really worked and you have always seen that countries try to evade it have a kind of a very flexible understanding but still since 2015 you we have seen a kind of an exit from this common European Asylum system and the common European standards people um political scientists called it re or rationalization de europeanization exit from Europe and I mean a couple of days ago a Polish colleague legal scholar as well said said now the new pact is bringing on the U level all worth things which have been practice over the last years on the level of the nation states and in this way the new paack is somehow now hardening what has been practiced and all the kind of soft law Arrangements which has been more or less you know also practiced over the last years now it's lifted up on the European scale and get now somehow put into hardl still it needs to be stipulated again to the to the National legal systems but I would say you can see a kind of different Dynamics and and the European Union or the commission and certainly also the parliament tried a couple of years and did quite well and enlarging rights and certainly also with the it's a different Parliament yeah different Parliament marus that yeah I maybe also um I think you know you ask why why why do people want to have this at all right I mean there are different answers I mean one is obviously they uh policy makers I mean in the commission Council also Parliament they didn't want to fail again you know like they did in the period 2015 2018 where they couldn't agree so I mean you know to show the voter hey we can at least you know come up with the compromise the institutions can do that I mean their job I mean that was definitely part of the motivation uh and then of course also showing our voters right uh we have a system that is maybe not perfect but it's institutions are working and we are controlling things so maybe don't vote for the far right I mean this is what you hear this is like the you know the motivation by the the motivation by the yeah people in in the Parliament and Council and and commission what you hear all the time even going so far that they say you know we know all of this is not going to work but here democracy is at stake far right uh you know uh forces are attacking democracy everywhere so we are ready to do almost everything to kind of um you know because they they received the criticism even you know people from social Democrats or greens and so voted for this right uh and it's the same same argumentation saying hey we we need to do something in order to save democracy they would go so far right they would say this um and um of course we can we can criticize this and um I mean you know we didn't have time to talk about the maybe German case but what I find I mean then what I find maybe also important to say there are other arguments why europeanization make make sense I mean on the one hand we we you know historically we said I mean um there was a system I mean of course first it was you know in a smaller European union and then um more countries joined the EU and of course they didn't have the legacy of you know um granting Asylum and this also created all kinds of migration also different types of migration create all kinds of political conflicts but um I mean for some time it it worked not perfectly uh you also have to see the important role of European courts I mean Sabina mentioned them right I mean we had a lot of kind of very important rulings that said you know in line with the European Convention of Human Rights I mean like simple push backs like we had an on the the bosoni Gaddafi agreement you know just sending people back is not an option something like you know other other countries in the world Australia they can do this because they don't have this European Convention of human human rights um so there there there there are some safeguards they also um NOS kind of you know Lobby players they really professionalized um I mean on the one hand being present in in Brussels and and and lobbying for human rights and and you know with some success also engaging in strategic litigation um what they do a lot you know find severe human rights violations documenting them uh trying to hold States accountable I mean this they're still doing it uh at the moment I have the feeling you know you you have documentation of of like the the worst human rights violations in the Greek case and others no impact I mean it's just continues right but I mean theoretically there's you know one argument we we can maybe explore I mean if the whole thing you know would be completely renationalized the whole European system then of course we are in uh you know in in a dynamic where it's complete race to the bottom right no more standards you know everybody makes tries to make his or her country as unattractive as possible uh no access to uh I mean you know Asylum to protection to to rights just violence keep people away so the idea is if there is some kind of cooperation a higher level of Rights could be in theory achieved um and uh there could be a common you know a common good like Asylum offered and but it the idea is in a fa I think it's still valid but it's in practice is working you know not very good and um again we come to this point where you ask you know why why do states do it I mean I already said they they don't trust each other right States they they maybe they sign an agreement but they have no trust also it's the same with you know uh third countries where they do agreements and there's no trust so I mean even if they sign things doesn't mean that they really uh you know believe in this they maybe we do this for other reasons but we still have all the as I said all the cards in my hand I can still use violence I can still not Implement I can be very selective so um this EU thing is maybe more uh a politic politic game for there also resources I mean you know there can be quite a lot of money being redistributed um so it's it's a complicated game uh policy makers will continue playing I guess so we have three questions from the audience so Steve you go first Steve verac also from the MOX Punk Institute here first thanks for really informative conversation um it's been mentioned how Italy is rolling out this new plan or or setup for um uh processing people outside of Italy um and you know it's been pointed out how it seems functionally kind of inefficient but I think for domestic politics it's probably very effective um what does the panel think is the the future of uh Third Country processing are we going to see a lot more of these rolling out despite dysfunctionalities but for the purposes of these uh what are their implications and impacts going to be do you think do you want to start sorry do you want to start I think Marcus is quite competent uh in answering this question actually if you say so yeah I mean for the in the German case there was an interesting political process right I mean it CES from it came from also opposition uh and they said we want to do this and the German government should find ways in in in organizing Third Country processing uh in line with uh you know the legal framework Geneva Convention European Convention of Human Rights so they they they they invited I mean they set up a series of hearings I don't know how many people have been invited also my Institute but many others um and the vast majority of all the experts legal experts NGS um you know other Scholars said is not a good idea um so legally I mean you know you can of course follow the the root of the UK you know just having a law saying hey run that safe because in my law I say it's safe um which I mean of course you know this this shows us what this is I mentioned it before kind of a post-factual policy Trend I mean just ignore the facts or just try to you know circumvent the law uh by doing incredible things I mean only alone the thing that people are on European territory and you say they in the you know the fiction of non-arrival I mean is so crazy in itself I mean Australia stated started this many years ago also starting with a part of its border saying this is no longer Australia you know then at the end it was the whole shore of Australia no longer being part of Australia and I mean things like this are being normalized right um and um so the the fantasy of of of uh you know I mean there also some you know Advocates I mean you know uh what a fetish I mean and some Scholars but also um some some experts like you know trying to come up with new ideas so I think in the German context yesterday was being being said that the you know BME so the you know Ministry for domestic affairs said okay majority of experts said it's not a good idea so probably we will probably not do it you know for the moment but the next government I'm sure they will they will continue I mean and then the question is is this only again political spin you know like the Border spectacle thing like talking about again again again just to to to stress the government and to to create an illusion that this could work I think this will at least happen then Rwanda probably will not happen because you know the election and the labor not doing it but the the Italy Albania case uh it will probably start we will see I I don't understand what the logic is other than showing something to the to the uh domestic people uh to to the voters that you are doing it because in terms of how it's designed it doesn't really affect much the the the flows of migration I I think but I'm I'm I'm sure overall this idea of externalization doing deals all kinds of deals agreements at the national at the European level this will this will continue whether we will ever have a workable system of Third Country Asylum Pro U um Pro proceeding I'm not sure and of course I'm not totally against it you know to say this I mean depends how you design it of course we don't want people to cross the sea and risk their lives it would be perfect if you could apply for Asylum let's say in Tunisia but then how is it organized you know is there an automatic transfer and is it as the German conservatives would like it to be you know is this at the expense of the the territorial asylum in in in Germany in Europe I mean I would say open up things like this but I mean keep the terral um Asylum system as as we have it for good reasons and you know just one last sentence because if you if you just get away with this legally binding system then states can do what they want and we've seen in in the past you know that they they like to ignore I mean you know um The Suffering of of people and be super selective so we need this legally binding Asylum system um as as a reaction to to the second world Second World War I would agree on most of the points that Marcos made and also I would add look how it played out for the conservative party in the UK and after the European before the European elections even I think the European center right before the ink on the new pact is you know dri they already announced that this is the direction we want to to go towards I'm very skeptical how this can play out in practice and also politically uh I think that it will be very costly for anyone that tries to implement it I don't think it's going to play out well and I think the European elections actually showed we should not forget it's not that people vote for let's say far right extremist or populist parties only because of migration it is part but it's not only I have this weird masochistic you know Habit to watch uh things like CAC in in Hungary in Budapest and I see the agenda there it's not just migration right we we can start about all migrants are criminals but then we will go to w we will go to abortion we will go to islamization and then uh climate change climate change and then uh depopulation and then all the conspiracy theories you can imagine so it's not just migration it's it's part of it so we had a question from the virtual audience hi my name is hania SOI I'm from here from The Institute as well and I I want to transmit just one question thanks first for organizing the round table and the question is primarily to Dr uh tiir um but also to others of course and the question is about the role that private sponsorship could uh play in EU in uh in the EU to create additional legal Pathways whether you think EU States might be willing to extend the mechanism for civil society to host newcomers so that's from the audience I have been working for few years on private sponsorship I know the model very very well I would say how it operates in Canada and I think that this model in terms of the current political climate in Europe and um the willingness of national governments or better to say the non- willingness of national governments to start implementing such uh such schemes I think that it doesn't really have this opportunity that one could imagine for it what what is striking is that when we talk about migration and when we frame it as crisis we refer immediately to 2015 and we never speak about Ukraine because what happened when ukrainians entered into Europe they didn't go magically in countries you know some of them of course didn't have relatives many of them had already relatives they had relatives in Poland in Germany in UK in Italy they had people who had settled there who worked there how private sponsorship Works in Canada by 90 plus% in the cases it's by the so-called naming you choose the person that you want to resettle to Canada that's why it works that's why it has these numbers that's why it performs in this way in terms of people f