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[Music] [Music] namaskar in this episode of D say we're going to talk about the aftermath of the results of the Lo saaba elections well the people of India decided that it's not going to be Char soar the people of India decided that it was time to bring some sanity into the political system and ensure that the government is run at least during the next 5 years through a process of consensus where debate will be Central to the passing of legislation where the opposition voices will be heard and that legislation that will be passed will be done through a process which has been conventionally accepted namely that issues of importance go through uh standing committees or select committees and then a legislation is passed after a debate in the house but how this how did this result come about is a question that we're going to discuss today in this this episode of D say and we have you know as a coincidence four lawyers with us including myself uh who are going to be part of this discussion lawyers who are um I think the future of uh India in a sense that they are they have Minds which have the capacity to choreograph a great future of this country so let me introduce my uh very very important guest today on the right side is Manish tiwari well who doesn't know Manish tiwari for many reasons he has been at the center of a lot of uh debate U uh a lot of public discourse and this is his third term of Parliament that he has won this time and 2024 from chandigar he originally won his seat from Ludhiana then from um uh an and now of course from chandigar though he W by a narrow margin but you know chandigar is the most literate constituency uh in this country uh so winning from chandigar means something Manish tiwari has been at the heart of Congress politics right from his younger days he was of the nsui I think from 199 in 1986 to 93 and then from 2 in 1998 to 2000 he was head of the youth congress and um and he has been uh he is part of a culture of what we call the inclusive India that we constantly talk about Manish Tamar's father was a master of Punjabi language he was teaching in Punjab University and a tragedy in 1984 uh when he was a victim to a terrorist attack his mother was part of the postgraduate Institute in chandigar uh she was um a dentist and she headed the the oral science department of The Institute uh so uh Manish uh is a voice in Parliament I have seen him several times in the Lok saaba talking about significant issues and he is a great writer on numerous subjects but especially in defense so thank you very much man for being here yeah and then of course my good friend colleague in the Supreme Court a colleague for many years VI tanka he's also now this is his second term second second term in the rajas saaba and if you go to madha Pradesh High Court indor you will find that um uh VI tanka is is is a g G man who is omnipresent he is he is he is a leader of the bar his father was a judge yes in the high court and he is known for his public causes he he is an active member of rotary and during the pandemic I remember the kind of Outreach uh that you were capable of doing was actually something that resounded in India in every newspaper wonderful work that you did for us and thank you thank you VI for being here of course in Parliament when I of course I'm a colleague of the parliament and when he speaks on issues the the amount of clarity that he brings to issues uh in the house when he speaks is something that is to be admired on my left of course is my young friend uh from Tam Nadu kti jamam um I think he's um he's as cerebral as his father of course he's more sporty this is of course his third term second term in Parliament I think you lost in 2014 by a fair margin and then of course won in 2019 by over three lakh votes and then of course in 2024 over two lakh votes right and Kari did his business from Texas University a school and business administration then came to Cambridge did his law and after doing his law he set up an Indian Management Consultant uh company and he does consultancy work in real estate in hospitality and very sporty because into the tennis world and Tennis takes him across and and uh and so you know and of course the important thing about Kari he's a fighter um his father is a mature uh he he he talks very deliberately slowly uh highly cerebral on economic issues gy is Ki can talk about any issue that you can bring up uh which which which can be discussed uh so thank you very much Ki for being here so I want to I want I want to sense as you know D is a program where we don't ask questions I want to sense why do you think and how do you think Congress increased its numbers from almost doubled the numbers to 100 now and how did Modi come down from 303 and lost 63 seats in Parliament do you have a sense of that Manish so I think uh the context of this election is uh is important to put this uh discussion in a perspective in uh November of 2013 uh the BJP won M Pradesh they won chisar they won Rajasthan and uh therefore there was a sense of infallibility that uh the 2024 elections is the done be they will be 400 plus mhm and uh the opposition obviously uh was to that extent despited uh if you recall that uh in the December of 2023 specifically on the 13th of December 2023 when there was a smoke bomb attack in the L saaba the authoritarian manner in which it was dealt with when the opposition asked questions with the entire opposition being expelled lockstock and battel from both Houses of Parliament 146 of them 70 both together see this was absolutely unprecedented and I think somewhere deep down that started troubling the people of India MH that you were possibly heading towards a one party state that 2024 may be the last elections that this country will see uh there was talk which was articulated by members of the ruling party that the constitution of India would be either substantially amended or even abrogated and replaced by a new constitution you think that's with because of the Char of slogan that's right that's right I think it's basically uh it's the 400 part slogan coupled with the rhetoric which was coming out of their leaders uh which which touched a very raw nerve somewhere coupled with that of course had been the undenying the soul to the idea of India uh over the past 10 years you know the weakening of Institutions the misuse of uh law enforcement and intelligence uh instrumentality and nobody knows that better than you and uh VI so all put together it created a sense of serious UNS especially among the marginalized section of society whether linguistically religiously or even from an economic standpoint then of course there was this entire St of crony capitalism which uh had uh become almost offensive in ugly if I can put it in those words and then when the elections came uh people of India are invested in The Ballot Box and uh they brought the BJP down substantially in fact if people would have had the confidence that the opposition can actually win M these numbers would have much much much much much more that's my sense you agree with that I I agree with him but another perspective MH G last 10 years we saw a very itarian rule right and it kept on developing towards the end it was unbearable there was some sort of a a version of the Civil Society read with with deep thinking people and this percolated down and gradually this became this reached to the marginal sections as the election progressed in the first two phases of election I didn't see the wave as intense the undercurrent it was not a b the undercurrent as intense as the election progressed as we talked of the Constitution as we talked of char so far and abrogation of constitution reservation was a big issue and I saw the shift coming but again it's very strange that on 22nd of January you had uh the consideration ceremony of ram him and in the 100 K kilometer periphery of aodha BJP has lost while on the same issue we couldn't counter them in Mad Pradesh it's a very strange situation while Ram is not an issue in up but it continues to be an issue in Mad Pradesh but mad Pradesh again I'm since I come from that state you know essentially it was a BJP State a Danang state to begin with it was the heart of the Hindu agenda and the first mistake that we committed as a con was s but the first mistake that we committed to the Congress was to let chattis gar get divided that used to be the Congress Fortress and that used to supplement numbers to ensure a congress rle inesh chhar going away it became a tougher matter the same story with telling telling so you were in the cabinet at that you would know better than us so what happened in Mad Pradesh was that this the vians SAA election for all the reasons which I don't go dealt deep into Le left us in a State of Shock and then there was a flurry of activity of our people leaving the party all kinds of people some of our there were news about big people leaving some of them are our friends also yes and and it became a situation where the whole party edifice or you can say the the energy or the motivation collapsed it's from that point that we started the campaign I was we were just three four of us were traveling from uh place to place in a aicc helicopter boering up the motivation of people but the point is that uh somewhere as a party we failed in madha Pradesh one to gaze the situation two to remedy the situation and to create alternative leaderships as as the time went on you if you just go back in retrospect in madha Pradesh nothing has changed after 1980 whoever was in part in 1980 he or she or the or the Next Generation continues to rule the r are you trying to say that 7.5 CR people have never produced a leader in 40 50 years so Congress has to reinvent itself also in a lot of places we come to that later I am somehow in some disagreement with some of the views that you've expressed now let me give you we talked about the backward the DS and all uh the charop par slogan resulting in the shift in the vote if you look at the vote share of the BJP both amongst dalits and tribals it is still more than the Congress but they might have contested more seats than us I don't know whether no they haven't they haven't contested they have contested more seats but in in South India they cannot contest in many of the stats but if you look at the vote share the vote share of dalits is more the vote share of tribals is more I think it's much more than my own feeling is it's much more than that because I think this was perhaps one of the most unequal electoral battles in the history of this country maybe each state has its own story absolutely yes exactly exactly for example in utar Pradesh the story was different different in in in in madhya Pradesh the story was entirely different right so I think that we cannot analyze the victory of the defeat of the Congress depending on factors like this these are all local factors and you talked about aoda in aoda if I may say the reason why they lost aoda because all the land has been occupied by people who are coming from outside the most expensive real estate in the country today is right and the small shopkeepers they've lost they've lost their trade all the merchants have lost their trade people from outside of come and settle so there was an intense anger within the local community and that's how that verdict came I don't think it is it is symptomatic of the larger picture this is my own feeling but I may be wrong let me you to tennis I always said that an Indian election is like a tennis match each set is independent of another set whether you win a set six love or 7 six you still have to start the next set at L so what happens in one state sometimes there's no bearing on right right for example it's completely independent in Tamil Nadu we have each state has its own political grammar there is a political grammar in Tamil Nadu but that hasn't translate into the same grammar in say in Karnataka even though we have such close cultural ties in fact even Bangalore is still a you know significant Tamil City but in Bangalore City we didn't win a single seat whereas in Chennai we win all the seats so each state has own political gra fact is that this is such a protracted electoral process is started for example in my constituency we voted on April 19th and we counted on June 4th 45 day lag it felt like they were running some zonal elections and the issues were also getting shifted from one week one phase to another phase because the rhetoric of the BJP and the rhetoric of the Prime Minister was very different on what it was on April 19th and by the time it reached the culmination on June 1 so each state voted on different issues there were local factors and you have to look at it cumulatively and see you know why this verdict Has Come For example in Tamil Nadu which we have always been a distinctly anti BJP State people want Tamil culture Tamil identity to be preserved and they believe that BJP is a upper clast Hindi hind party so they rejected and also the BJP did not have alliance with any of the major political parties they tied up with very sectarian cast outfits and that also showed in the results whereas our in Alliance the Congress Alliance which is the India Alliance under the DMK was intact in fact we only had an addition with Kaman coming so so the you know the sheer arithmetic and the political grammar of the state ensured we had a 40 love but this talk about that the BJP has sh has up his share it's a very superficial analysis sir because the BJP tied up with a lot of cast based parties and these cast based parties put up cast candidates who contested on a BJP ticket so this is not a pure BJP vote vote is for that candidate because he belongs to a particular cast and there was cast consolidation in many seats and they got the vote so to erroneously to assume that that vote is a BJP vote is wrong because the next election if they don't have a TI with those cast parties and those cast candidates don't contest this vote will not come even in Sag ganga they was a specific cast party which contested on a BJP ticket and there was a cast consolidation behind that candidate not enough obviously to win but we can't assume that that cast will always so it's a little ex you remember we have a tribal party yes we had parties of SC you know every region of M has a party yes don't you think we fail to tie up with them absolutely a tie up would have been a different result in the assembly and later also in the par but if this large analysis Manish how does it explain the victory of the BJP in orisa it doesn't explain first of all if you were to rewind back to 2019 parts of South India not withstand the 2019 was held under the overhang of the pulama terror attack the bot now that created a significant amount of feeling of nationalism across the country and therefore the 2019 result banned out in a particular Tamil Nadu were exceptions to that rule but even Karnataka the BJP did well they were able to pick up seats in Telangana Andra has its own uh political Gramma but this time uh in 2024 uh in the absence of a black swor event you had real issues playing out on the ground price so price rise unemployment that's right income inequality uh the feeling that uh everything over the past 10 years had been given to one particular industrialist right so therefore they were and and then you had of course local factors playing everywhere so that's why you have this fish bat of a result where you cannot really pin it down one focal Central issue given the BJP the momentum at but this Factor doesn't play out in Mad Pradesh it doesn't play out in Gujarat it doesn't play out in chtis gar it doesn't play out in any of these one feeling is common people are feel feeling relieved and that's true that's true today a journalist is happy yes a policeman is Happy correct a lawyer is happy a businessman is happy they all feel relieved by this result I think Indian democracy has sueded balance has come they all think there some sense of because they didn't want to give a free pass to the ruling party so they could steamroll and bulldo this bulldozer was actually a symbol that said we would use the bulldozer every year and that actually that lot this election has exposed a couple of myths the first myth is that there is in fact a limit to religious polarization yes absolutely yes absolutely second myth it exposed is that you cannot run crony capitalism and populism hand in hand you know you may give free ration to 75 CR people but if the super structure of the the edifice that you're trying to create is a shal model it is not going to fly third is there is a limit as to how much you can Harvest false narratives that media and the fourth uh myth it busted is that there is a limit to resources they can take you so far but no further and and and fifth most importantly at a very subliminal level it was the rejection of Enda politics and this breaking of political parties the sheer immorality with which things were done and it was then kind of spun off as some great chakin uh uh you know Miracle which was being performed people may not have spoken and then this this this this feeling of an unknown fear I mean from 2014 onwards people started even making routine conversations on WhatsApp on FaceTime sure sure see yeah I agree with you I agree with you one thing that we've not mentioned is that the hind that the Hindu Muslim rhetoric anti-muslim rhetoric very he never worked never worked never worked and will not work again will not work again right and thank God for it that they are reduced to 240 that they'll not be able to propagate that in the years to come but apart from that there's another very important factor which I think resulted in in in modi's downsizing the kind of speeches he made talk talking about mingle Su in the Muslim buffal buffal your bank balance will be taken away the tot in your house will be taken away now ordinary people watching this realize that what what's happened to our prime minister right and they were wondering as to why why a prime minister of a country is saying this now now the reason why they won the 2019 was a capture of the mainstream media and the reason why they lost L 2024 that they could not capture the social media right it's the social media that I think one of this media you know independent YouTubers who would make satire would communicate know more plainly in in a local language and localize their Communication in fact a senior journalist a very seasoned journalist who traveled in said for the first time she saw um you know people in villages mocking the Prime Minister you're right see or this that she actually told me was telling was no they always had a grudging respect for the Prime Minister before they would never mock him personally but his they start mocking and the fact that you know didn't allow that rangila candidate to cont again had an effect and they just talked about talked about and the fact indor and in Sur I think withraw then again they said oh this is if this is going to be the case there will be no elections anymore and then they will everybody and you know pushing I think they were Convent of this reality that social media is a huge uh narrative Builder and a narrative disseminator and therefore they had built up a pretty formidable machine and over the past five years all of us have been witnesses to the fact as to how repeated attempts were made to try and control the social media try and put a legal AR on it you know see that you are able to circumscribe it like you into Old media the Supreme Court granted state so so so therefore and and and ultimately there was also a reaction against that people did not want that you know their Facebooks their Twitters their Instagrams you know their other means of expressing an opinion is going to be subject to some kind of a sensor so this Overkill that you know we are there we have arriv right it is going to be my way or the highway I think it gred with people deep down and I go back to what I said earlier if there would have been a sense in the people that yes the opposition can win it we would have W these numbers would have been much greater in other words if you were to have an election today if you were to have an election today this number would not be 240 but would be 160 but K another big factor the vulnerability of the man is now been established another big factor which we are missing out the devaluation of institutions of course it was being with the people whether it is the courts whether it is the election commission whether it's the C CBI the the agencies the misuse all that was being a lot with the people as if the Prime Minister was above the law say anything one-sided action against members of the opposition OPP resting a sitting chief minister just resign Chief ministers and not they not getting bail was very telling people said this can happen they can arrest any chief minister and put him in jail that was a big big issue that had an effect and the Electoral bonds issue yes it exposed them it exposed them completely and you know people talked about how did they have so much money and how do they have so much money and then they had captured everything they had captured the the you know reservation of helicopters nobody the opposition didn't have space but having said all that they swept certain states without an opposition how do you explain that that's the other problem there a societal change in certain States that's the only explanation I have I don't have firstand knowledge Gujarat and mad Pradesh all Society explain that it's sort of I think I think Gujarat a prime minat I thinkes doeses does very heavily with people number to in 2017 we came very very close to defeating them you know we were up to 91 seats had we maintained that momentum you know Gujarat may have panned out differently Aisha because nain Patna had been there for such a long time and uh brought in an officer chtis chtis the same thing madh Pradesh the same thing utarak the same thing surprising surprising you have government there how how do how do you explain all this if these are the factors that we are discussing and analyzing none of these worked these states and so My worry is that I think what we need to look now we move on to the next thing if you look at the Congress party's victories now let's be really honest with ourselves where have you won seats Kerala no question of the BJP being there you know either death wins or UDF wins so you won there 15 out Tamil Nadu Alliance is very the alliance is very strong so you went there one there Maharashtra the alliance so you won there Punjab between up and you the others were decimated so you won there now tell me in in utar Pradesh you won because of your alliance with akiles so basically the victory the numbers that the congress party has gotten let's be candid now the numbers that we have gotten is on the strength of our alliances but wherever there's a onetoone fight we've been beaten badly how do you howy sir the allian for example I'm not saying that I'm just I'm just saying the numbers increased because of your alliances definitely right you analy having said that uh there is no doubt that the two yatras which were car right that did help in crystallizing issues in the minds of people right and uh in fact I think it was in the one of the papers yesterday that along the root of the Y first first 41 seats you know uh the Indian National Congress and its allies picked up so therefore uh the fact that you were able to take the concerns to the ground Mr Gandhi was able to take the concerns to the ground uh in the absence of any alternative means of dissemination except the social media which is also a very crowded uh space and a very contested space uh did also add to the the momentum of the India Alliance so but yes I think it's a cause of BU that if you draw a blank in Mad Pradesh if you pick up one seat in chhattis gar you pick up one seat in orisa you lose utarak you lose himesh of course these are the this is a cause of concern and you know there was a need to go back to the drawing analyze it more granularly as to why this this this this happened in this manner but as I was saying you know in the absence of an overarching narrative there were lots of narratives which on the ground that's the point that's the point 41 seats you're talking about part of it ultimately the arithmetic is on the alliances ultimately wherever what however you analyze I mean the yatra must have actually brought a lot of eyeballs right people must have said look here is this young man who is moving and walking you know hundreds of kilometers thousands of kilometers of course that that must have helped a great deal and that's why the percentages of the congress party in each of these states where he went actually increased so therefore that's Credit Credit goes to him but the fact still is that those increases only happen in the states where there are lands sing seen to the alliance so minorities particularly are assured when the Congress is part of an alliance that they that this will be the secular she for very clearly you know even if the admk did not have an alliance with the BJP the minorities only trust the alliance which has the Congress in it because we bring that secular she an interesting pan India point is that there was a pan India under correct that's correct you had to take advantage of it since we were a pan India party we took advantage and reached 9900 others who would take better advantage in their own States reached better figures right so the lesson is that we must we need to strengthen our party absolutely reinvent our party and for the next time we must make sure that we take better better Advantage under that absolutely without any doubt now if you really look at take utar Pradesh for example the utar Pradesh combination which made us win this election is the Coalition of of the talit the backward backward the Muslims right and it is this that ultimately won us this election part of it is that the Congress share is increased in utar Pradesh right the Muslims as Omas voted voted for us and the delit realized that the charop par slogan may result in in as you rightly said amending the Constitution and therefore losing res G and Trust in my had gone down but that factor which worked in M utar Pradesh would did not work in any other state didn't work in in be didn't work inally the tribal right therefore therefore there again what we need to do and this is my own feeling we should be looking and redraw the map of India into local areas right and then see in the local areas which is that factor that works because if you I was it's very interesting if you look at take for example the rural and the semi-urban areas in utar Pradesh the SP and the congress party in the rural areas together have 92% support oh can you imagine and in the semi-urban areas you have 60 30 plus uh 80 80% andur urban urban is much less so now now you know that if Congress party is to win the next election win the cities you have to win partly the cities but you have to strengthen your Rural and semi-urban vote and that is in in collaboration and alliance with another party which has that support well see Urban India has always been a tough n the only time we were able to prac it was 2009 when we won every city from except except bang well there could be all exception here or there so yes uh Urban India definitely requires a lot of working on not only by the Communist party but even by the India Alli you see will be going to PO uh perhaps at the end of this year you know would have for so therefore uh how do you get the urban V you know into this narrative actually this Narrative of this being the last election the Constitution being under siege should have really resonated much much more with them but for reasons which need to to be analyzed it didn't and it actually resonated far more clearly with r with Rural and semiurban India as you were pointing out so so so therefore uh I don't think that this is the time to you know sit back on your hes and say that all right it's spe tomorrow tomorrow is too early to start if you ask too late to start rather I agree State specific strategies there can't be this one size all and and and stability in other words you appoint your your your pris immediately yet you appoint your people on the ground immediately start working from tomorrow otherwise it's going to get too late 2024 is really the Art Park 2029 is going to be an our par because now you have a prime minister and his party who are not invincible and now the people will be far more open in expressing their views than they've done in the past and now there' be no strangulation of Indian democracy and for all you know we have a midterm Bo well that I don't know that I don't and and you know basically we want India to move forward we want any government to survive but at the same time that government must be an inclusive government and I'm sure that the two partners of the present government especially the TDP and the uh jdu jdu are parties who are embedded in the secular mode in the sense they have the support base is is also the minorities in a substantial way and they're not going to let that go and um you know the TDP TDP has has in its manist referred to reservation for Muslims to the extent of and they have reiterated it so these are not some these are not straws in the wind uh the C the the the Prime Minister will have to be very very careful careful in in repeating the rhetoric that became you know the national rhetoric uh in prior to 2024 now what do you think are the challenges before the BJP in the next election so BJP my personal opinion has maxed out on this muscular H agenda they maxed it out there is that you can't they can't be winning elections or winning a new water you're touting the same thing this is maxed out they need to unless they start delivering on the ground you know on on on price rise on jobs well they don't have an economic agenda they don't have it that that this will be the last election day I would tend to disagree you see what has happened in the past 10 years is that the W lines which were in fact already present post the partition Med they have been able to sharpen them and exagerate them uh depending upon the the buttons that were pushed and the triggers that were pulled that Subterranean uh divide Still Remains there Alive and Kicking so under those circumstances uh the for the BJP uh while it may be difficult given the play of their own Coalition now to keep going down that road the the desire to travel down that road will remain now this time other real bread and butter issues in some part of India were able to kind of paper over this but we would be completely uh deluding ourselves if we do not think if we if we think that fundamentally uh the attempt to change social EX in the media of India uh to some extent uh has unfortunately unfortunately uh succeeded and and and therefore the pluralistic secular inclusive parties actually will have to be far far far more Vigilant in order to ensure that this slight is arrested once for all mere Reliance upon the fact that the TDP or the jdu because of their own political compulsions will do the heavy lifting for us no of course not they not just just the idea they want do the but they reain in the re in the the the BJP so so ideological Clarity a commitment to constitutional values a clearly enunciated articulated commitment to pluralism uh to ensuring that you know income inequality is is addressed in a serious manner by this Government after there 230 India alliance members in the Lo SAA are uh issues which need to be taken up or should be taken up you know on prity because ultimately the opposition now finally has the numbers to hold the feet of the government to the fire absolutely and and and and if the opposition is Remis in uh exercising that mandate uh to to to really stand for those constitutional values which they made as the SW song of their campaign then you know things may not uh really all that bozy has if the hind agenda has percolated into the psyche of the Indian people how do you explain the Bengal result no but I speak about the Hindi heart let me speak about the Hindi Heartland this is where the issue yes I I what I'm saying is you have lost Regional leadership or state leadership in the IND one of the big reasons who were are chief ministers in Mad Pradesh from 56 ra Shankar Shukla all Brahman no but they were people kashu yeah DP Mishra Shan Shukla PC Siti Arjun Singh di Singh they all very big people same was the case in up same was the case in biar where are the personalities you have lost you have lost touch with the real Civil Society I mean lawyers doctors you were not you were the Centrist for of India you have to regain that position of which is why you lost leadership in all the regions in India in all the St you have to come the CEST force of India has to regroup rest strengthen combine and then challenge the French force today the French Force has taken over always win the middle four squ in always been the middle middle you have to win the middle force and they have to win the centr there's no doubt about that and we can't we this way or that way but to focus on and also encourage Regional leadership and and you know I always say that we must now offer leadership at the doorstep can't have leadership in the mountain any we have to and the B yra was a good effort by the Congress to say that the the Congress leadership will come to your yeah but then you must identify those leaders Empower those leaders and and and recognize them and respect them that's very important see the problem that's going to come and I want your thoughts on it again we have not going to have election in harana right in harana the app will say I'm going to fight to seats now you see the interest of up in Delhi the interest of up in Arana the interest because they want to expand their base so you going the next problem is going to be how do you deal with these issues that's that's a serious issue now we have to draw the IDE ideological line somewhere I don't know I'm not qualified to speak about the alliance whether it will continue beyond the parliament election is is doubtful my own opinion is doubtful because also consult the state units before any kind of Alliance is formed see any Alliance without the consent of the of the state unit of the congress party never really works we see what happened the alliance in Delhi where does it landed Us in in Mad Pradesh well having said that the alliance of course it's a mic work I agree but therefore therefore I'm saying it's a very complex issue is what I'm saying it's very complex and and this has to be dealt with very very know in Mad Pradesh I had all the regional parties in my house nsh G wanted one seat Gana wanted a few seats J wanted a few seats you know all these guys were willing to join us in the state elections we it's not the central leadership it's the state leadership which rejected the offer the center was interested that there should be the problem it's a it's a vicious thing I mean I'm not saying that only the center is responsible even the state at times has acted difficult so you need to have a new blend people who understand the real arithmetic of the state or or with being are willing to realize that you we are not omnip omnip puff I mean we are not everybody we need a lot of support from the activists we need a lot of support from lawyers B associations tra associations where is the reach out where is the reach out where are the leaders there that's leaders you are a leader in mad prades we have to have leaders like that all over the country we just don't have them and we never recognize them and that's the actually that's the that's the mistake that the BJP is committing today today what's happening with the BJP is what happened to the Congress the BJP is rejecting its leadership in the states also it is anointing Chief ministers who are not known anywhere first first time as chief minister the result is one and a half man leadership parties so it's not the BJP of I thought this was two and a half and he doesn't have a parliamentary board which which had the same he before yeah but just see what they're doing they have sideline Chief ministers one one by 8 lakh votes and he was sideline in his own State and inana he should have the chief whatever I'm saying is what you are pointing about the Congress which it was wrongly doing is exactly what the same in a way in Rajasthan we we succeeded and I might I dare say part of the reason was that they actually sidelined vunda my my my own analysis I may be wrong and it's course partly because of the the work good work that G and the good work that pilot have done and they work together so it's it's a mix of all these factors but it's very important to realize that National parties must actually prop up strong leaders in the states and give them the free play on The Joint but that's not happening and you have to go back to the drawing board and do that and you have to have a very clear Economic Policy I think there also we we are not really clear exactly what our economic policies even the BJP is not clear quite frankly because I think the basic problem in this country is at the bottom of the pyramid you are not empowering people you must understand that the THS and the back together for almost 60% of this country that's that's that's uh substantially correct because if you go back to the 73rd and the 74th Amendment you know whereby you created the PTI Raj institutions the real empowerment of those institutions in terms of flow of resources has not taken place yes so therefore they distributive justice on the ground even if let us suppose you have myriads schemes being run by the central government and the uh state governments because the spread is so thin ultimately the benefit is uh is is very minimal that's why only a couple of schemes like for example monria succeeded primarily because it had a very clear sharp focus and monria then was able to deliver over all these years and this government was compelled to continue it despite wanting discontinue it so you're absolutely correct I think the the the the difficulty lies that the delivery system is still faulty the delivery system needs to be fixed even if you want to do distributive justice and the problem is that to do distributive justice you have to create wealth and that's really not happened over the past 10 years despite the rhetoric because if you look at the budget deficits the deficits have been growing year on year look at the borrowing of the government of India has gone up byes years you for 52 humongous figure is so therefore under those circumstances you know a very fine-tuned economic Vision which delivers to the last man in the last Ro let me take you on on that and I want your views I see I think what the congress party should do is that you start strengthening the federating units in this country your slogan should be more power to the states it is something that needs to be done to do the delivery that you're talking about you have to have more power with the states both financial and in terms of distribution and allocation a big issue in the it may be a big issue it should be a national issue the Congress should take a lead the share of tax to the state to take a lead that you give us the money you let us spend let us compete allow us to borrow it's impossible for the states to actually move ahead and take care of their poor and the marginalized unless they have the way with all to do it and therefore the nature of federalism has to change and therefore some entries in list two must be given back to the States for example education why should education be controlled by by the Union at all it was originally with the states so I think that you should go back to the drawing board look at our constitution look at the lists look at where actually you need power to percolate down and how distribute of Justice can be done on the ground but the Paradox here is that the PTI institutions are really being hobbled by the state governments I'll take you back to the 1989 debate when the PRI when 73rd 74th amendment was being conceived the whole idea was that the the money would flow directly to the PCH that's from the state to the no no no from directly from the center to the PTI Raj institutions timately that bill fell in the to 89 then when government Reid right the money was then obviously rooted from the States you know which Poss and they didn't they didn't actually allocate resources ultimately that is where the bottleneck gets created because the members of the legislative do not want empowered local institutions because it competes with them on the ground and and and this is the you're talking about PTI Raj I'm talking about something larger than that and I agree what you with with what you said that if allocations are made to the states then they must Del you know pass on that to the but but the allocations to the states are not enough is what I'm saying that's where that's see how do you get a d educate a d to tell how do you educate a d unless you have more schools unless you give the state the power to open schools I would say just open schools only for DS why should you have others why should you have a why shouldn't you have 100 100% policy for opening school for d for girls ultimately if unless you Empower your children you they will be become centers of economic growth themselves because investment in human capital is the best form of investment but that can only happen if you give States the power so I think that that is something that and every state including TDP including your uh in in in in biar nsh G they will they will support this so get that onto the agenda and we look at some of the lists and tell the and and get some amendments done in the Constitution if they don't make it a national issue you should push the buttons sir bring the federal Spirit of these Regional parties which are supporting this government to see where they stand when we bring amendments which are going to strengthen doesn't matter if the I'm sure the BJP will oppose them because they don't want to give up power then it makes a national issue it becomes an election issue you have to move politically no so these are things that you need to think about apart from of course the the the empowerment of your political uh representatives in the various States I mean like this is something that I've been actually looking at and thinking about for a long period of time even your St tax structure yeah it's it's it's become horrendous you know you you're scaring people today people are leaving the country and settling outside India only because they scared to that's thein in the CBS no but the whole edifice I'm talking why should why should the law be used in this fashionation complete see the the pmla and the CBI and the tax authorities are an instrument of Oppression today today they the instrument of Oppression this the the the Election Commission in an inst strument which is the which is which helps the political party in power to do what it likes the courts are hesitant to Grant bail to people right the vice the vice Chancellor universities are captured the governors play a political role the money is all with the BJP how does the opposition with their hands tied up at the back fight an election you need to take this forward to the people and this should be a new uh what should I say Outreach to the people of this that's why the 202 before elections in many senses became between the people and the government exactly it was people it was people versus the BJP right and we took advantage of that anger and that an how do you explain there how do you explain the reduced margin of the Prime Minister Mar exactly the other thing the last thing I want to say and I want your view on it quite frankly I think that they didn't get the 240 seats they didn't they haven't got the 240 that they claim because I've heard horrendous stor of District magistrates going into polling station no we heard that also no I have heard I have heard firsthand no we also this this is this is the something needs to be done about the electoral system in this country something drastic needs to be done and I think the court should play uh a very important role in that but if they don't they would have let down the P Election Commission should be independent first of all you start from there the process of election yeah what happens is that anybody can go the district magistrate can go into the polling station he can do what he likes you know and why should the phases of Elections be decided in this talking one nation one what this this agenda of election was finalized by the homeister sure very opposition to take a very serious view of this matter and make it a national issue I mean I we've just talked about so many things today so many things to be done we should go back to the drawing board drawing board and start doing them but thank you very much this is great discuss pleas conversation as always thanks and especially because all of us are Loyals yes I know I know we should take the lead in taking India forward I'm sure and I think you as president of the Supreme Court must need that we we shall try thank you [Music]