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okay so it's just gone 12:30 so we'll kick off uh welcome to the IP Australia patent examiner recruitment information session my name is scale Sutton I joined IP Australia in 2021 as a patent examiner in our process engineering section I now part of the patents training academy and support our trainees uh and I'm shairing today's information session I'd like to commence with an acknowledgement of country so i' would like to begin by aning that I'm hosting this information session from the lands of the Nal and the nry people I also acknowledge the traditional custodians of the various lands from which you are all joining me today I pay my respects to Elders past present and emerging and I celebrate the diversity of First Nation peoples and the their ongoing cultures and connection to their land country and the Waters of Australia I'd also like to extend that respect to any Aboriginal or torist stade Islanders peoples who are here with us online today so just a a quick bit of housekeeping here as well so as as mentioned before if you could just double check that your microphones are on mute during the presentation that would be appreciated and that we are recording this session for the benefit of any who can't attend today and we'll provide the recording to your email address that you have provided when registering for this session if you're not comfortable being recorded I would get you to turn your camera off that would be fantastic uh if you do have any questions during the presentation we will be answering them at the end rather than during uh you're welcome to either scan the QR code on the slide or head to slido.com and pop in the code which you can see on the screen here I've also provided a direct link in the chat so feel free to pop questions in there if you see a question that appeals to you and you'd like to answered feel free to click the thumbs up to like or upvoted and we will do our best to answer the questions in the level of interest that we get them uh so we understand that most people who are thinking of applying to be a examiner have no idea what patent examination means and what we do here at IP Australia so that's much of the point of today his training sessions an opportunity for us to introduce ourselves tell you more about the examiner's role and the training process and provide a little bit of information about the application process as well as giving you the opportunity to ask questions uh and then I guess just as a simple kickoff I'd like to introduce Andrew Wilkinson who is uh the manager of the patents examination group thank you g just just checking you can hear me okay okay excellent yeah welcome everyone um thanks for your interest um I'm going to talk a little bit about Australia and P an examination to give you a sense of of what we do so a Australia is the Australian government agency that administers intellectual property rights uh and legislation relating to PS industrial designs and creers rights so today we're of course talking about patents so we take those applications for patents and those other IES and and make an assessment on whether the applications meet their requirements of the law that's applicable uh in this case the patent Act is is one of those um key pieces of information if if it meets those requirements we we Grant uh a patent and might be right so in terms of the job with a patent know that means in a sense uh assessing basically against a number of key criteria or characteristics um very briefly that would be is this thing before me this invention is it new and is it invented over what's out there um and can it be used in industry so that's in a very in a nutshell that's that's a key part of the role um so why is that an important thing for Australia and for Australian government um well we we believe and and we know based on evidence that um we make the P system makes positive contribution to the global uh economy and the global Innovation System we know that IP savy companies Drive economic growth and new jobs uh and these companies these IP savy companies support and encourage technological innovation promot investment in Australia and also bring new products and services to the maret Market in Australia which is of course a benefit to Australians um so wanted to talk a little bit about working that I Australia the kind of environment you find yourself in um but when we ask our current employees what keeps them working at of Australia we gener he three key things the purpose you know purposeful work we do the people that we work with uh uh and the culture associated with those people and of course the the balance the work live balance but this is where I thought I'd share a little bit about my experience working like thisr I've been here uh around 15 years I was a family examiner myself uh in the physics Technologies um since then I've had um done various things in up hisr including policy um and na back ination group um in terms of um the environment I think it's a it's a great culture from my perspective a family friendly a flexible culture uh we value our people we know how um with a stem stem talent and quations are very sought after as you you would know and we're no different about we try to create the best environment we can to retain and grow out people for me personally uh I've worked um parttime for example i' worked in the job share uh in the past bring up a young family so I for me it's been um very flexible and place i' wanted to start my SP my here in terms of that work work life balance I mentioned um today uh what I ear I mentioned today more than 80% of our employees are working remotely for at least part of the week uh and we have over 200 of our 1100 um uh people working in a fully remote um uh situation and basically we've almost got people in every state territory across Australia so we're really distributed um uh but we have a big a big emphasis on staying connected in that P environment so to me this is really a testament to how hyr has adapted and embrac the shift we've seen and how and where we work uh as you probably experienced through through Co I mean product over we we had this world Place had a bigil prodct served us well during that um and we understand you know the importance of this to both attracting and retaining stuff so just to finish up I thought I'd add a little bit about this particular recruitment campaign so you may be aware we have a candidate kit that includes a lot of information so please have a look at that um uh information about the roles and the information process and a wealth of information um so please do have a look at that of course today will answer any questions we can as well uh we're recruiting at the moment across um most technology areas and broadly within I we refer to chemical electrical and mechanical some three categories that really uh that that's to cover all technologies that are out there we're looking for scientists and Engineers with qualifcation and experience uh in specific technical fields that are outlined in that key I mentioned how greatest need at the moment um is is in chemical and mechanical type Technologies uh where we'll be primarily recruiting in biotechnology chemical compounds Immunology Biotherapeutics biochemistry uh and pharmaceuticals as well as I mentioned mechanical General mechanical engineering and medical devices so we can see there's a wide range of Technology uh so today sorry together with that information pack and the session today we hope we he W you need to make an inform decision about working at I Australia um so hopefully that's been helpful and Gail will hand back over to you thank you no worries thank you so much Andrew uh next I'm just going to introduce one of our current patent examiners to give a bit of a perspective about what it's like to work as an examiner here at IP so Amy mcra you're up thank you can you hear me okay great um so I'm am MRA um my background is in biotechnology and before I joined IP Australia I was doing a postto um at the University of willing gong and my funding was running out for my oh my contract ran out so I need a job ASAP I knew I didn't want to do lab work and but I still wanted to stay in science and I really liked reading up about um different research out there so this job sounded great to me um so I applied and I've been here for just over three years now so as a pent examinar just to kind of reiterate what angrew was talking about um we use our technical background to understand the invention and then with the patent law we determine a number of things but mainly whether the invention is new and whether it is actually invented which might sound funny but true um so I think the skills that you really need for this is to have the ability to digest a lot of information and then really use that technical background and the patent law to um make an informed decision and that decision could be whether or if you're going to Grant the p or if there's some outstanding issues that the applicant needs to fix up before granting and in that case you'll write a report just stating those issues but you really need to also have um effective written communication as well um in saying that you do learn all these skills in a job as well so you I certainly did not have these skills when I first started so don't stress about that um so what I really love about working here in IP Australia is you get to see some really cool inventions and it's even better when you get to see them a few years later after you've looked at the application and you get to see them out in the real world so one of them is um I think it's called The Game Changer burger at grilled where they feed Cows as specific seaweed that reduces methane emissions and I was one of the people that examined one of those patents so that was really cool and as a group we got to go out and eat the burgers it it was often um the other thing is um I'm a bit of a science nerd so I really love um reading up on news science out there and I also like the fact that I got to use my degrees I spent a lot of money on that so was very happy to continue on with that um and also the autonomy over the KSI I have the autonomy over my decisions with whether accept it or not um but in saying that there are so many people around that you can discuss cases with any decisions or inly issues so while at the end of the day you're making your own decision you have a lot of people out there who are supporting you and who um are very open to discussing anything and then the work life balance is amazing as I said I came from an Academia background where weren't exactly encouraged to take annual lead and you were encouraged to work over 10 hours a day and on weekends certainly not the case here you actually do have a work life balance you're encouraged to take anual leave and you're also have the flexibility of a work day so for me I work three days in the office in CRA and I work two days at home and when I'm at home I will sometimes take two to three hours off during a day just to go to the exercise so go to gym or do some Pilates and have lunch before I come back and finish my workday um so that was amazing it was such a refreshing change from Academia um yeah I'm happy to answer any questions that you guys have at the end as well thanks that's it from me thanks Amy and I can certainly resonate with the the life work balance as we like to call it here um we work hard here at IP Australia but we work efficiently and we work as a team so it's and we also make sure that we work sustainably and that's a really productive environment to have I've come from industry and had a relatively similar experience um so that's worth acknowledging um stepping across I would like to introduce Austin Smith from the patents Training Academy thanks Gale uh yes I'm Austin Smith it's wonderful to meet you all I am one of the Learning Community leaders uh that helps facilitate and organize the training uh that you are uh potentially going to be involved in as prospective candidates as patent examiners uh one of the things that IP Australia really uh highlights uh and wants to prioritize is as Amy was saying giving you the opportunity to utilize the skills that you have developed through your academic experience your industry experience what have you uh in the fields of stem and continue to apply that and utilize it in new ways but one of the other great things at IP Australia is that there's a lot of capacity to expand your knowledge expand what you're aware of see new things uh discover new uh uh ideas as you're reading up and examining these other applications and also develop new skills in regard to the specific quality of patent examination I've been at IP Australia for coming up on 11 years and in the training academy for coming up on four but as I came into uh IP Australia I didn't have a lot of specific experience in the applied chemistry examination field that I ended up working in for several years so one of the exciting things that you can do as a patent examiner and one of the things that we offer is uh for new patent examiners is coming through into the job into a training academy that will help broaden your skill base and also train you up on what you need to know about the legal system about how the patents act Works how intellectual property works in the first place and through all of that training period you are being paid to learn which is a pretty exciting thing for those of you that are lifetime Learners so the training academy is a is a designated section of the organization that will help to facilitate and guide you uh or guide new patent traines uh through a three-stage competency based program to upskill and learn how to examine patents uh the program is broken up into three stages the first stage uh runs up to about six months uh which will occur in in the academy section where you will engage in fundamental uh training to to learn the basics of how examination Works uh this will be through a lot of classroom style and coachg guided training uh so if you've missed uh that University experience of sort of learning new things in that classroom environment it's a great way to uh learn the new material and learn the new ideas from there you'll move into a six-month uh transitional stage where you will continue developing new uh new skills with the academy uh focusing on some more advanced topics with regards to patent examination and then transition into more on the job training uh in a core examination section uh that will then be followed by a final 12-month consolidation stage of your training where you will build capability and confidence in being able to examine applications generate reports uh and ultimately work towards gaining your acceptance delegation which will make you a fully-fledged examiner able to work comparatively independently so the training academy is really uh part of the first eight or nine months of your experience uh or of a new examiner's experience and a typical week will generally involve two to four what we call learning communities these are the classroom style sessions that I mentioned before uh that give you opportunity to discuss the new Theory you're learning while also apply it in workshops that are led by trainers uh with examiner experience like myself uh these are all run in a virtual classroom so regardless of whether you are working at one of our offices in CRA or Melbourne or our new Sydney Hub or whether you're working remotely anywhere across the country uh you'll be on an equal playing field with all of the other trainees these sessions will also be run in a uh broad sense those of you with chemical backgrounds will be working with those with mechanical or engineering backgrounds uh and with those with Computing backgrounds all learning together about the basics of how the uh the fundamentals of examination work supplementing those sessions though you'll also work with a workplace coach uh who will generally be assigned two to three trainees uh in a similar uh or the same technical background uh same or similar discipline and they will help you work one onone and in small group settings to apply the general principles that you're learning to the specifics of your technological background uh this like very close coaching and mentoring uh will also allow you to engage in both simulated and live case work from an early stage of your training even during those first six months when you're learning the basics you will be working on live real actual patent applications which is pretty exciting in terms of getting up to speed and feeling like you're making a contribution to the goals of Ip Australia all of this is further supplemented by online mer online learning modules to help introduce new ideas and a number of other uh support networks that we have in place to help uh welcome you engage you and help you feel confident as you enter into IP Australia thanks Gail thanks Austin you're making me want to go back to the training academy again it is a great place that encourages this real culture of curiosity and scholarship which is all the way through your career as a patent examiner and that's quite a unique thing to have in a workplace so well it's one of the perks um from a direct training experience I'm just going to introduce David stoky who's one of our recent training graduates hey everyone um so yep I'm David I've just been at IP austral for over two years now and while that sounds like a long time that's just at the level where you're qualified to be an ad um so I was going to talk a bit about what a day in life of a traine paintting Examiner looks like um more or less in the first six months um because that was probably the biggest culture shock for me um I came from an Academia background and I went running and screaming away from that straight into IP Australia and the idea I can second um with Austin getting paid to learn was a miracle for me um and so in the first six months um it really did feel like you would be stepped back into a classroom um where there were always people on hand to help control and monitor your learning and your progress so you never felt like you were stagnated and you never felt like you were told to work it out yourself um and they let you really have time to percolate the ideas that they were teaching because as a patent examiner especially a trainee patent examiner you are introduced to a lot of New Concept ceps that you would never have thought about during your Technical Training um and these Concepts take a little while to get wrap your head around and having so many good people on hand to sort of talk through these issues and questions that get raised is invaluable to The Learning Experience um so in my case going through the first six months um Austin was the person that trained me so cheers Austin um but then we also would get the technicals specific technology specific coaches um that you would also talk to on a day-to-day basis we would get the onlite platforms that um Austin mentioned but we also had um in my intake at least talks from people with um specific experiences within IP Australia so for instance um during my intake we had talks from people that helped develop the legislation that we're using and how they interpreted it and how it was meant to be interpreted um we also had talks from third parties that would come in to teach us how to best apply our writing um both for clarity and how to communicate with attorneys which may not always be as straightforward as you'd hope um and finally we would also be given um buddies within the section um people that were six months to a year ahead of us but still in the training program um and they were just there if needed so it could be who to talk to in the department or how an outlet for asking the most embarrassing questions you don't ever want to utter um even if it's things like oh H how do I talk to the library people something as simple as that someone's always on hand to answer that question um or simply where to get a good coffee um so Gail was my buddy um and sort of helped me guide through all the sticky processes that my particular eventually come up in the first six months um so as Austin mentioned you do work on live cases all throughout your trade very early in the training and Beyond um and even in the training academy you see things that perhaps not every examiner would otherwise see I remember the first case that I ever had I showed it to my supervisor and she said oh well that's new I've never seen that before and then it was working with her to say I know it's a problem but how do I best address it and then as you progress from the training academy and intersection where you start to look at more technology specific cases and start working at a faster clip you're never left alone there's always going to be people that you can talk to and reach out to um if things crop up and the technologies that you see will never always fall exactly into your wheelhouse so there's always something new to look at and something new to explore so the example that I like to give is in about halfway through my training period in the space of a week I looked at a new design of a battery and then uh housing for a new type of solar cell and then uh human composting facility um you can get some really weird and strange variations that always make the job look fresh and make the job interesting um um I guess if I had one takeway um from my experience in the training academy and learning through IP Australia is that you are never out of options there's always someone to talk to there is always help available and you always given enough time and um and information to succeed in what you're doing everyone will help you and support you at every step of the way thanks Dave that's really appreciated uh I can certainly reflect on sharing the experience of the weird crazy patents you see uh every time I go to my hairdresser now she wants to know what patents I've looked at ever since the day I told her about the compressed air cannon that pushed cows off the train tracks before the train came so um that was that was unusual but yeah I tell you what my hairdresser loves hearing about patents and inventions which is quite surprising really look we're going to move on to questions now um as I said earlier we do have the slido poll um to pop questions into and I will do our best to answer as many as possible I can see that there's a few in there so what we'll do is we'll do our best and then when the session times's up we also collate the remaining questions and send them out to you as an FAQ sheet along with access to a link to the recording because I did see a couple of people did have to leave early uh so I think probably the first question that we're going to start with um I'll throw this one across to you Amy is a couple of questions about the the transition from Academia and if you had any issues coming from Academia to the organization and also I guess about the application process and you know what did you what did you emphasize about your academic career that helped you here at IP um yeah so in terms of any difficulties I don't really think there was anything I think the transition was made quite simly um being in a training academy cuz you have I mean you're not really working on your technical background anymore they are learning about the law side so it's it's a it's a very different environment but is more casual and everyone is very helpful so the transition is quite seamless to me um in terms of the academic CD vers this one um I think I'm trying to remember what I put on my cvos a while ago but I think I just elaborated on my latest um well my postdoc experience and what I did in there so I um mentored a few students I had some honor students so I put my experiences with that in there um I was also on some conference organizing committees so I put that experience in there as well and any um because of my biotech background and I think a lot of chemical um sections would appreciate this is any techniques that you did uh during your post or Academia so for example I have a structural biology background so I put x-ray crystallography um protein and peptide protein um chemical compound interactions in there as well and any um conference presentations whe that be poster presentations or Earl presentations I put in there as well um hopefully that helps answers your questions great thank you so much Amy um next question I've got I'm going to throw across to you Andrew uh one very sharp person has asked about what the impact of AI is on how we do our day-to-day here at the patent office especially given how text based our work is yeah very topical question question um so I think there's probably a number of uh potential impacts um so of course on the pent system itself you know gener generative AI or generally um could have some disruptive impacts of the pent system and obvious has uh done some full improving on that and um there is some work on our website potentially we could leave a link to so you can have a look at that if that's um of interest to you uh in terms of the Rolling of what Happ exam uh from from my perspective you know it is a a complex decision-making process best done by a human and so I I don't see that changing anytime soon um so the way we are looking at AI technology whether it's generative ai ai otherwise is how can we leveraged technology to support uh examiners support humans to do their job um effectively so as you know another I guess disruptive technology was the internet you know it's a very useful technology but also created access to a lot of information and growing information so we for example we can leverage AI tools AI search tools to help us understand uh the information that's out there and as we've said uh gauging or assessing um whether an invention is is new and inventive compared to what's out there is a for part anation Ro so you can see how technology can help us do that but ultimately it's a human decision that's made so I don't see that changing anytime soon it's if people are familiar with this it's sort of that concept of a menting humans rather replacing humans so I think that would probably the the core of what I'd say there um hopefully that's answered uh the question I mean just generally with AI you know I think a lot of people here would know that AI technology has been around long time generally AI technology is I guess somewhat newer or at least in the public Consciousness but you know we've been leveraging AI to help us example with automation for some time and so um I think op R is pretty well placed and kind of I would say on the the forward Edge the edge of government use of AI so I think while there are some challenges presented by AI it's also very excited there opportunities there to be part of part of that make the most of new technology as it comes in uh and of course we do see AI popping up in the applications that come in through the door so and understanding that AI is something that um examiners increasingly need but as we've talked about uh we have various programs to um support examiners expand their their knowledge of new technologies so's know think to new technologies com down L I'm hoping that answer the question that's great thank you better you than me Andrew look I'm just going to answer a whole bunch of questions that have come through from different people about you know what kind of background and experience and qualities and skills that we looking for here I've got someone asking you know I'm an i ICT professional is that relevant um electrical engineering um look the first thing I would say is that effectively stem backgrounds and also legal backgrounds are highly desirable um a background and at least an undergraduate qualification in a stem field is mandatory for this position um postgrad as you would have seen in the FAQs is not mandatory but of course is highly regarded uh basically the first place I'll refer you to is in the candidate kit is table a which gives a description in detail of all of the discipline that we're looking for as Andrew said at the start we are looking across all of our technology Fields so the broader electrical mechanical and chemical streams um and that table will give you more details about the types of fields that are suitable so that's probably your first Port of Call uh if you're still unsure um I will provide on the final slide a contact email address um for patents Recruitment and also you are more than encouraged to contact the contact officer for a chat or ask any questions as well uh the next question I'd like to pop forward is uh Safina I might pop this one to you but could you have uh a chat and talk about what is the typical sort of 5 to 10 year career trajectory for examiners here um particularly given that you've done some pretty unique things during your time here thanks scale um I suppose I'd start by saying there isn't necessarily a typical trajectory um I think there are lots of options that are available um in terms of your professional development um whether that might be something like you know going along to a conf conference to get a bit of an understanding of where um where where the where the science is at at the minute um you know what things that we can be keeping an eye out for and and and through those opportunities you you may then seek to do uh you know apply for various um courses that may you know kind of build your skills in that area um so during I've been here for about uh 20 plus years and um I have had the the the pleasure uh the luckiness I suppose of um doing various different uh professional development things um whether it is uh attending conferences I've also uh become a hearing officer which um is kind of The Next Step Beyond examination um when we when we Grant an application or once we accepted application uh there is an opportunity for uh the people out there in in the Innovation space to kind of look at what we have said we're going to allow to proceed to Grant and if they think for instance oh that looks like something I've done um that there is a process for opposing the that that particular the grant of that patent and there's a process there that we go through where essentially you kind of as a hearing officer get to sit down and uh be uh a judge of sorts um and and listen to arguments from the two sides and then have to ultimately make a decision um and then provide reasoning for that decision um in in a what is quite a a thorough and and complex uh legal document that gets published and all that sort of stuff um I've also done things like um move uh go across to different um departments within the aps uh we have professional opportunities that way so uh there are a range of things that people do um also the skills of patent examiners um I suppose went are quite often uh sought after within IP Australia as a whole uh so we you know we have different parts of the organization such as policy which Andrew mentioned earlier often um examiners go up there to to have a little stint to understand um that that aspect of um I IP system um and you could come across to the training academy for instance uh which is uh what happened with me after about 15 years here so um I I got to do to use my skills in a different way to to train the Next Generation thank you Saina um the next question I'd like to ask Austin I'm G to throw this one to you because you are one of our remote workers who works from home uh 5 days a week can you give a run through of typical methods that we use to maintain and drive team connection for remote staff yeah so uh there's a number of of different solutions that we have uh a lot of our our work as as patent examiners is fairly uh sort of independent but we do encourage a lot of collaboration and some of our work does require collaboration with our teams you know we utilize uh Microsoft teams a lot to keep in touch on a on a more sort of quick pace uh communication using it for all of our uh you know video conferencing and video discussion uh as well as our communication uh more broadly uh we do have uh as Andrew mentioned a wide number of uh remote workers across the agency uh so especially if you're uh working for one of like Capital Cities uh there are usually uh hubs that develop uh not necessarily to come in and work together but to regularly meet up and stay in touch with people that are working at IP Australia and near you uh in terms of the team's uh Outreach as well it's something we're very conscious of uh making sure that there is regular opportunities to stay in touch to to collaborate and and stay in communication I'm sure there are others here online as well that have worked uh remotely or worked uh away from the office for periods of time as well that might be able to speak to any other uh personal experiences as well but from my understanding speaking to a lot of our remote workers we've had a lot of uh train intakes recently that have been dominated by remote workers and in fact our current intake is entirely remote uh the experience has been uh very well received um people have felt connected have felt uh tied into the agency uh and not just that they are hovering somewhere on the periphery in The Ether thanks Austin that's really great and I guess probably as as part of that you've probably got the idea there is a question here asking if the training period is online or office-based look it is up to you uh our current intake of trainees who's recently just started is 100% online and there's no problems with that um just a quick question that's going to come up a few times Saina could you talk about how many positions we're looking to recruit for and if there's a very rough split of the areas we're going for so we are looking to recruit about 30 people give or take it kind of depends on the type of applicants that we get um and as I as um Andrew has mentioned earlier it's largely in the chemical and mechanical areas that we have the the greatest need but that doesn't mean that there isn't any positions in what we call our elect sections I'll just touch on a question that I saw pop up on that as well um about somebody being in the Merit pool uh uh and whether um you need to reapply I'll just say that in terms of being in the Merit pool the panels have just been um selected and the panels will be looking to the Merit pool as part of their initial process in terms of um the next steps so um we can get back to you about that uh more specifically um yeah so hopefully that answers a couple of questions oh I'll mention one other thing which is in terms of coming to Cambra we we do usually plan a couple of visits for the trainee uh during the first um period where they're within the training academy but we have we will talk you through that and we do have flexib a flexible approach to how we apply that that's great thank you so much Saina I look I do see a question here and thank you to the person who is brave enough to ask this and says can you talk about some of the difficult parts of the role so that we you can let us know if this role might not be for us look I think that's a really valid question and I think some of the things that are useful as a patent examiner is you really do need an attention for detail you you know you need a thirst for knowledge you need to be interested in the details um you need to um be willing to collaborate with a whole lot of diverse different people um you know for me as a classic chatty person there are some wildly intelligent people here who stomp all over me on a technical front um and it is an absolute pleasure to work with them so you'll be working with lots of different people um I think that the um there is a lot of Independence and autonomy in the work though you will need to be self-directed and self-motivated is another thing as well so um they're probably some of the things that I would I would suggest is worth considering um and then I guess the other thing as well is that if you um come and give it a try um come and apply pop your application in the Hat get into the training process and see how you go um we're always thirsty for new Talent here um I'm going to Chuck the next question across the dat um just because I know that he and I sort of have had a a good run through the training process and someone's asked about how do we what's how do we manage risk in the organization and what's the attitude towards failure or when things don't go as planned and this is not to say that David's a failure he's a spectacular examinar but when you're learning you get things wrong um so do you want to talk about that aspect Dave yes it is a part of my expertise unfortunately um and just to follow up on what you said about a bit about earlier about um whether you're suitable for um for a patent examiner the way that I always thought about it was that what makes me a great patent examiner is the same reason why I'm terrible at parties I I like to point out people's and flaws in their arguments so if you ever get that hankering this job might be for you um so if the questions relating to um risk management and attitude towards failure then a big part of the job especially at the training stage is that you will be QA on everything no one expects you to get things 100% right immediately off the bat um there'll always be scope for improvement both as a trainee and for someone that's 10 years in the in the field um and they don't expect you to do things 100% right and then that um the QA or your direct supervisor will always give you helpful and constructive feedback um and even if things do slip through and go to the attorneys um I had one case where I misunderstood something the attorney will 100% let you know um and then it just business like usual um and so the the final thing I would say is is that a lot of this job is about reasonable justification um it's if you can justify the argument that you put then your argument is not wrong it is not a failed argument it's taken in view of your field and your training and your expertise in the knowledge um so that example that I gave was something slipped through is because I viewed it in a different way than the um attorneys intended and the attorneys just said no we think it's like this and then with that view in mind I could reexamine and then go on with my life that there was no pressure to get things 100% right there was no recriminations for seeing it differently than how the um attorney viewed it as long as I could justify the argument that was perfectly fine thanks Dave that's fantastic and then I guess Andrew from given that you're a little bit higher up in the organization you engage with risk quite frequently at your level do you want to have a quick chat as well from your perspective um yeah the the organization has um or understands that to to innovate to improve takes some experimentation and as we know that includes you know value to some extent so you know um in terms of the patent generation environment you know we the way quality was you know quality review was mentioned right the the mindset there is one of a a learning mindset it's not a about getting something wrong it's about you know how do we do better next time for the customer so you know that's really um uh th ingrained now that learning mindset in how we approach our work and um as G mentioned really have a team team based environment and so um if there's something you're unsure about it's really you know there's a lot of support there it's suspected really that you talk to someone get get a different perspective talk to someone with more experience or particular expertise and they can really help uh help you make make a decision that that has been inated whether that's uh granting a p or giving reasons to the customer why uh you're not gra at this point so uh but yeah I think op as a whole um being part of the Innovation ecosystem we pride ourselves on being innovated as well so way we know that embracing appropriate risk is is is part of that and the risk management framework which uh I think I'm not sure if it's available publicly um hopefully it is um but that's actually a road breing framework and that's something that you can take a look at and see this Gap TI across a number of areas so hopefully that add B there go that's great and also I just want to sort of Link into something that Andrew said and talking about operating in teams and I can see here that someone's asked a question about can you discuss kpis in the job and I think that is always worth talking about um here at IP Australia as examiners our job is to examine uh and basically we do have a certain amount of work we need to get done we have what we call a pipeline of work so the work's coming through and it chops and changes depending on what industry is really hot and submitting lots of applications at this point in time um so from direct experience I've seen an awful lot of batteries coming through because you know the battery field is pretty pretty hot topic right now we work as a team uh we work in sections of about 30 people and in smaller cells of about four to five people basically and we collectively achieve our goals basically so what you do in a week will usually be tailored to your strengths some people are doing what we call a original search and examination which is where you start looking for stuff from scratch and it's you know much more detailed and you know really really digging into the nitty-gritty and looking in the back end of all of the literature in the whole known universe to see what you can find and then some people are really good at writing um a much simpler report where there's a bit of stuff to work off so yes we do have kpis here like any to be frank sensible workplace but we work and we achieve them as a team leveraging of your strengths um we've only got time for one more question so what I'd like to do is ask steina about there's a few questions about hey I have you know strengthened multiple stem disciplines or what if I want to apply for more than one stream so just on that one i' obviously um something that we're acutely aware of is that many of our technology areas really have crossover between them so um in terms of the application process um you can apply for one and understand that um our our uh different recruitment panels will uh often share the information about if they think that you're more suited to another panel um but you can also reach out to your contact officer um and they are listed in the candidate kit and they'll be able to help you um with specifics about you know this is probably the best one to apply for but I did see one particular question about kind uh one was physics and Computing um both of those areas are within the electrical Stream So if you apply to the electrical stream um you'll you'll be considered um for for both those areas thank you Saina uh so that concludes our presentation for today thank you all for all your questions um I can see that we do have a few questions left in slider that we haven't yet got to at the risk of sounding a little bit like a broken record uh do have a look at the candidate kit there's some great details in there about how long the application process takes including a breakdown of the stages if you're successful proceeding through and also more details on the technology streams and who the contact officers are so if you do have any more questions um feel free to either reach out to the contact officers or there's the patents recruitment at IP Australia email address uh and just a gentle reminder that applications close on the 24th of March so we really do hope to see a few of your applications in there um thank you so much for your time today it's been great to have you all here here uh what I'll be doing now is just ending the recording and closing up the meeting so thank you for your time and good luck