Online Signature Legitimacy for Profit Sharing Agreement in United States

How to eSign a document: online signature legitimacy for Profit Sharing Agreement in United States

welcome to another podcast with our Sheikh our Mentor uh she um hatim alhaj and uh we had already had a past one about a very sensitive topic today we will continue in with other uh sensitive topics that are inshallah of uh practical value to the Muslim Community so welcome she to our second podcast uh today inshallah we wanted to talk a little bit about the issue of the application of f in Modern Times And the fact that sometimes what we find as the ideal position is not one that is the most conducive to the time frame we live in and that raises a whole host of questions the issue of gradualism the issue of pragmatism the issue of understanding classical F in modern times to what level there's allowed to what level there isn't allowed So today we're going to be talking about number of topics that overall deal with the internal leeway that the Shar provides and where that leeway crosses the red line in terms of fine-tuning theam of our so with this overall introduction can you summarize for us certain principles that every single student of knowledge should be aware of when it comes to uh understanding and you know the famous principle and all of these types of maxims and can you help us for whatever you know you have in mind to summarize the most essential and maxims that the student of knowledge should be aware of first for the invitation U and then um as as as you said the there are certain principles that are immutable principles Islamic principles that are mutable they are unchanging uh the beauty of Islam and the genius of the Shar of Islam is that we have uh constant objectives we have overarching maxims that do not change and we have a very flexible legal framework when we say flexible legal framework people should not misunderstand this to to mean that we can basically play around with our uh detailed rulings whenever we want by tahi or by passions and desires and biases uh this is not true um so IM shatab has a statement uh that that is uh very accurate very precise and very thoughtful about the Divine address not being subject to change uh he says that had the Shar uh had had it been meant for this world to be Eternal uh the Shar would never need to be changed we would never need a new uh Divine address to humanity it's done is done has been fulfilled by the of Islam and if this world would uh was meant to be Eternal or were meant to be Eternal which it is not um the Sharia will be uh relevant and applicable for eternity and he says when Customs change it's and and uh and new rulings are applied to new Customs this is not a change in the Divine address itself however it is uh basically uh those Customs uh falling under different principles different principles of the Sharia that are that continue to be fixed so imagine three layers the the highest objectives of the Sharia the overarching maxims and principles of the Sharia and then the flexible legala framework the Shar the objectives are stable they are fixed they're up here the principles are here and those are basically uh the the the legal maxims the man the effective cause ofam uh and and so on those are fixed and then uh underneath uh you know there is the uh changing Customs the changing circumstances changing realities and those changing realities when they move when they change they fall under different principles the principles are fixed the reality is changing they would fall under different uh principles there is a there has been and there will continue to be and if we were to keep the relevance and the Practical practicability or practicality I'm sorry of the Shar then we will have to recognize that there has always been a dialectic between the law and the reality uh and this dialectic uh was recognized by the scholars the the iodite uh verifying Scholars have always recognized this and have always been uh uh ready to adapt to new realities and to adjust to new realities if you remember in our previous discussion about uh the we talked about how uh the the scholars you know out of their interest in and desire for peace and Order uh they were flexible enough to accept the sort of different forms of um conferring legitimacy uh on you know imams whether it's through or pass on the Covenant or even forceful seizure of power in the interest of peace and order you could say that this is like a manifestation of their pragmatism or their basically adaptation to different realities of their of their times so we we need to make sure uh at the end of the day that um only qualified Scholars will be entrusted with uh this very important work of T or the renewal and Revival of the Shar and and the prophet wasam used the word Allah will commission uh send to this um uh you know at the beginning of every Century or at the turn of every Century uh he who will or they who will uh many people say it is they not he they who will renew its de for it renew he used renewal he did not use restoration he used renewal and many people want to say that it is only about restoration uh it is only about bringing the people back to the way things were during the time of the prophet sallallah alhi wasallam and the Companions and of course it is uh mainly about this it's mostly about this it's mostly about the fact that the umah can drift away from the Islamic ideals and needs to be reminded of the Islamic ideals but it is also about itadi renewed it's also about adjusting to new realities and adapting to new realities not simply restoration because restoration would be suitable for uh uh basically restoring a uh a fixed structure like a static fixed structure like a building uh to its Old Glory but Islam is a lot more Dynamic than this so she all of this is fine theoretically as you know the devil is in the details right of course and as you're aware there's a constant push back and internal struggle and dialogue going on between between movements as you're aware you have the hardcore traditionalists and then you have the both both of us are coming from the Revival Paradigm exemplified by and others of trying to rethink through and then you have of course modernists and progressives who really don't seem to care about the Shar so you have this entire Spectrum so again the question is in your mind what is the what is the red line like up to what level what when it when would it be considered uh that you are actually rejecting the Shar or or trying to do that which is not allowed to do okay so when you try to change things things that are not meant to be changed ever there are certain things there are the Creeds that are not meant to be changed there are the uh morality the principles of morality uh in Islam these are not meant to be changed there are there are the sort of the fixed instructions of the Shar and quantifiable instructions of the Shar that are not meant to be changed there are uh mostly in the area of IAT the IAT are never meant to be changed uh so there will not come a time where uh fasting in Ramadan will start from z and end at or M uh these things are never meant to be changed but there is plenty of room for a change in uh certain areas in international relations in uh Financial transactions and um some adaptability even in in family Rules or family laws um that's less amable to change closer to than it is to but there should still be some room for adaptation to new realities in the world uh there so who gets to decide uh the qualified Scholars the much and that's why we have so there will be an internal disagreement at time certainly most certainly those outside of that Circle should understand where qualified Scholars disagree and where there are unanimous in this regard right because one of the problems we have is again uh the the quickness with which any type of discussion of the type that you're doing is automatically disqualified because there's a knee-jerk reaction to any type of fine-tuning that the Shar actually allows so I'm going to now do a deep dive and do specific topics and again for the record this is not scripted you we're just I have questions and ideas in mind but you know this is something coming organically in so I want to hear the Sheik's View and obviously I have my views and we can uh discuss them back and forth but let's begin with one of the most constantly discussed issues over and over again and that is the H and apostasy laws what do you expect a modern Muslim nation state a modern Muslim country that suppose a political party CU theoretically I don't want to mention specific country's name suppose Muslim majority country an islamist party comes to power right and now they have taken over uh alhamdulillah a massive group of of of Muslims the majority of whom are not religious people five times a day praying the majority of whom are involved in sins like drinking and whatnot and now this party has come to power and they decide to fine tune and not apply the Shar instantaneously because ing to their view I mean again let's look at Egypt when the spring happened or spring happened as you know the quick modifications that uh the islamist party had to do like is there going to be jizya well okay I guess not there's not going to be J okay how about a non-muslim uh you know power oh they can have power except for the president what do you mean he can't be there so as you know the whole conversation took place is that kufur the gradualism that these parties adopted can they make a temporary change for the sake of a greater good or must they apply instantaneous ly or is there actual leeway for rethinking through for example apostasy and the the the the the the the the punishment for apostasy some thoughts about these types of things and I have my views but let's hear yours okay so yeah the first thing that we have to agree on and I think Muslims practicing Muslims all agree on is the Perfection of the Shar and the ultimate wisdom of our Lord and mercy of Our Lord uh and what ever it is that he had legislated for us is uh INF infinitely wise uh as Im so Shar is is based on the benefit and well-being welfare of people in this life and the one to come and uh sort of immediate and longterm um and he says it's it's all about Mercy it's all about Justice it is all about wisdom anything that departs from this is not part of the Shar even if it was interpolated into it so we we have to uh accept um the Sharia in its entirety uh the prophet Allah which basically Embrace Islam in its entirety all of you Embrace Islam or it could mean also Embrace Islam in its entirety so we are embracing Islam in its entirety uh you know everything that comes from our lord is good for us but again at the same time I don't think that even the the most strict uh I I shouldn't say that but I think that even the more strict uh um there are people outside of the scholarly community and and we're not talking about the people the extremists outside of the scholarly community but within the scholarly Community even the stricter Scholars would recognize the need for gradualism uh even their stricter Scholars would recognize that Omar suspended the for uh during or during the famine uh and they would recognize how Omar changed certain things because of the changes in Social political realities you know the the Thea that used to be that used to be or the the the blood money that used to be the responsibility of which is the paternal kin um Omar changed it because of the Chang in the sociopolitical realities of of their times people moved around and by the time you collected the data from it would have taken months or years and would have been unfair to the family of the victim but Omar changed it to people that are registered in the same or the people the same registry same town same nakaba or Syndicate same this same that um and that that is basically a precursor of like insurance companies you know like interesting so yeah so so even the strictest Scholars uh or that the the the stricter Scholars would recognize adaptability and would re of course you know the hanf and mikis accepted Omar's position on on the issue of not the Sha and so there is still this there is still disagreement and there is still like a um a dialogue between the scholars and this dialectic between the law and the reality uh but uh gradualism is is basically just it's untenable to think that you could impose all of these things all the sudden on on people without uh sort of gradual steps towards the realization grad would not be considered kuur oh of course not like of course not so to be very specific then but also the the H in all honesty the the the hype about the HUD the there are you know people disagree how many HUD are there three four five so let's say four h uh that are fixed penalties why is it why isim or devouring the wealth of the orphan less not is a new one yeah I use those thing okay but but but why why are there is why there is no for that's you know for so if you look if you examine the the punishments there is always this huge force uh that is pushing you or pulling you and Allah wants to deter you this the this is not meant for Revenge it's meant for deterrence and the evidentiary standards that were applied by the scholars throughout the ages uh indicate that this is about deterrence it is not about revenge it is about it is about deterrence and purification but mainly DET turns you so you have like the zena you know great harm can can ensue from this family breakdown societal breakdown and then uh the pull you know is is enormous that that lust has enormous power so there has to be a high wall to deter people from this crime that will cause this much harm you know to protect people's honor the same applies to K to protect people's honor and then the push is also great because it's usually done in a state of extreme anger uh you have you know is not not specifically but butas which is also severe punishment you know equal retribution uh to protect people's life you have uh you know the C theft for instance uh to to protect people's property and then the the the drive uh for it is is huge as well so let us understand that we're talking about four or five punishments out of thousands that are that are left for disc discretionary punishment you know uh and out of thousands more where no punishment at all is prescribed or like uh no penalties uh are are prescribed whatsoever or encouraged whatsoever so it we have to basically think of the had in in in light of this and understand that gradualism uh is is an essential uh basically part of the application of sharia gradualism is an essential part must there be so let's be firstly Give an example again hypothetical so and you talked about apostasy right you said we'll get back we'll get before we start that one hypothetical example a majority Muslim land has had an islamist party they win the party they win it they they're now in Parliament or at least they can maneuver but the country has allowed Z has allowed has allowed so much the islamist party tactically wants to get to a position where more and more Islamic laws can be applied but they can't do it overnight so they say that okay uh let us start let's just say taxing uh let's just say so that we want to De incentive or sorry sorry um yeah de incentiv we want to make it you know more difficult for them to acquire they cannot shut it down immediately let's just say critics are going to say this is kufur they have not applied the Shar and even if they're trying to deinen divize the fact of the matter is it's still allowed and their laws are not Banning and prohibiting the counterargument from their side is that yeah but we have a group of drunkards we have a whole society that's immersed in this sin they're not going to go from Z to 100 immediately so as one simple ex again hijab for example right as you are aware those countries that have tried to enforce it generally speaking has been a harsh backlash you know and those countries that are organically attempting to bring about morality have actually seen massive success rates in this regard so comments and thoughts on this type of these examples well you know the the tax in for instance this is what ourf did you know from the rashidun but not not you know levying taxes on Muslims but non-muslims so non-muslims and said let them sell it and then you take uh basically uh your taxes from them you take the tax your taxes from them uh so non-muslims in a Muslim country will not be forced to Shan they're allowed to sell to among themselves and to produce it and manufacture well if you they will sell it they will produce it uh and and then they collected taxes from them uh and this is not this is not ABD Malik Maran this is om but that was for the that's for Al yes so the idea that you will never find H in a Muslim country and it would never be allowed would be completely eliminated is has not been real or or true even the time of exactly so let's be clear on this the second thing is now if Muslims like if if we can do this with non-muslims uh we want to to sort of bring Muslims into the fold of Islam gradually and if if uh taxing will be a step towards uh you know the the complete prohibition of H enforced by the government complete sort of enfor enforcement of prohibition by the government prohibition of HR can never be sort of debated among Muslims is prohibited you are a sinner if you drink you are a sinner if you sell buy produce Etc certainly out you know there there is this this agreement outside of the Muslim lands and and and so on in terms of selling it but but the idea here is we're not talking about the ruling of here we talking about a Muslim government who comes like or or or and and and in all honestly I I believe that um I believe that uh Islam should be kept away from partisan politics Islam can never be aiti or can never you know you can never remove politics from Islam or Islam from politics Islam from influencing the public space but I don't think that Islam should be exploited or used uh for partisan politics but if a group of well-meaning Muslims uh or like a a well-meaning party that is islamically oriented that is informed in their policies and their strategies and their priorities and their objectives by their Islamic values and their commitment the religious commitment come into power and decide that they will uh try to uh take gradual steps towards you know the the complete prohibition of for Muslims for Muslims then I would not fall to them let alone call them kufar so again as you're aware no scholar is of that nature but unfortunately we have to deal with so many especially in the west they they don't understand the gradualism or and they assume that you know we have to implement sh instantaneously over night and this is something that we have spoken about multiple times let me give you the another example you remember ABD Malik Maran abik ABD and what he said toar ABD like he blamed him for you know for his timidity to to enforce all the always the youngsters want to have that IMM medialis yeah who's being blamed here that so so told them if I if if I do it all at once they will re Bill all at once yeah uh that's what it is like aren't you happy if you if no day passes except that your father will be yeah it's getting better bit by bit yes exactly I I think that this that this is the difference between ABD Malik andal youngster idealistic yeah season politician wise experience this is the difference between the two pious Pious as well much more Pious much more knowledgeable yes this is the standard class so we have to always deal with it so she one of the issues that we constantly get asked and I get asked this in public by non-muslims in particular and I've given my responses in this regard the issue of apostasy and blasphemy and my position has been no doubt the Shar has the ideal laws and nobody has the right to permanently change the laws of the Shar given the nation states we live in given that the world has changed and we are no longer under a just like in a nation state we cannot implement the jizah even though ideally there is just there jiz so given the modern world we live in that if somebody changes one's faith in a Muslim majority land it's up to them if they're able to implement alhamdulillah and that is ideal nobody's going to deny that but if in case an Islamic party is not able to implement Allah's ideal ruling in that particular situ sitation this is not in and of itself a rejection of the Shar as long as they don't ascribe it to Allah subhana wa tala as long as they understand that given the modern Dynamics we live in that this is not something that is possible for us to do without repercussions that are worse than the positives we think will be achieved right so that has been my position that that is something that a modern nation state because they're not a and because they're not applying they cannot apply all the sh anyway so what are your thoughts on this of uh apostasy laws and and uh blasphemy laws I would even take it a step further and say that apostasy you know you know that I'm Han in in our M it is not a it is not a fixed penalty it's a discretionary uh punishment uh a discretionary punishment that was legislated I have written a paper on this it's it's online if you put in my name and apostasy you will find my my detailed position on this issue I I don't think that it would be possible for us to deny that this ruling had existed that this punishment has been executed uh by you know the the the um it it is controversial whether it was ever uh implemented during the time of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam there are controversial reports about this I'm aware of them uh but it is unclear whether the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam ever imp implemented this punishment there are some reports where it's clear that he had not implemented it people who apost azed in his face you know who who were left uh and this punishment was not exact exacted against them and that is part of the reason why in h uh this is considered as discretionary punishment because had can never be suspended once you know it reaches the court and the prophet Sall wasallam was the court at at those times uh it has to be basically ex sort of Applied uh but since the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam waved it at certain times uh that then it makes it makes perfect sense that this is a discretionary punishment it existed this is the position of the four imams particularly with Muslim men IM abif has a different position about Muslim women which also indicates the the the legal justification the sort of racial leges be behind this law that uh why is he differentiating between men and women because uh traditionally people who apost apostatized or you know went back into kuf they joined the uh kufar they joined quray they they they and they they started to fight against Muslims but he they estimated that women would not be doing this would not be fighting anyway the the discussion on apostasy and the different positions that different Scholars particularly contemporary Scholars have taken uh taken with regard to apostasy is is a very lengthy discussion but in my viewpoint this is a discretionary punishment that does exist it existed in our history but being a discretionary punishment it can be suspended for a greater benefit it can be suspended for a great this is even more radical than what I have argued for yeah okay so you're saying aan in your view it's not a it's not a it's a discretionary punishment and in this case being a discretionary punishment it is within the jurisdiction of the Muslim authority to suspend it it is within the power and the authority of the Imam or the Muslim uh government to suspend it for a greater benefit and the obvious greater benefit here is reciprocation I mean keep the doors open you know as IM said that that pre to Prevail there are two ways to this by and ban by proofs and you know uh evidences or safe andan or by Spears and swords Islam will sometimes Prevail uh in both respects but will always Prevail in one respect which is so it would make perfect sense to keep the doors open allow people to walk in and out you know and basically what what what what are you seeing what are you seeing in the world today when people are allowed to walk in and out are you seeing people basically uh walking out more or walking in in more and which kind of people are walking out and which kind of people are walking in like look at it impartially but please look at the the people who are converting to Islam look at how sincere they are look at how thoughtful they are look at uh their trajectory also after conversion they become Scholars uh they become great diis uh they have complete commitment to Islam and look at the people who leave Islam and their trajectory post apostasy so should we keep the door open is it for the does it bring about a greater benefit for the Muslim Community of course someone would say that during the the colonial times you know like in Algeria for instance uh during French occupation you know and that is what said that had had we not had that punishment of apostas uh you know the community would have been destroyed because you have a lot of pressure um you know under I pressure to leave Islam you're being colonized you're subject to uh non-muslim tyrannical uh Rule and in this case uh had there not been mechanisms for the relig religious community to defend its integrity and to defend its uh ident and uh sort of Faith there would have been a a great loss um but in our time in our times it's different exactly different when you apply such pressure we have seen in multiple lands when you apply this coercive pressure in reality the people rebel internally and there is actually a detrimental effect on their Iman and that's why people actually have overthrown governments that they felt were too strict on them or even in the case of one land don't mentioning names but the minute you know the the the ruling party or the king relaxed we see the reality of the people and all of that strictness is literally was just completely shallow to the point of one wonders what level of Iman they had so to be clear therefore and because as you know I get specially a lot of push back in this regard to rethink through the modern applications of these laws not only is it not a rejection of the Shar it actually might be the wiser course of action for a person who wants to to apply the Shar in the long term yeah of course it would be bring about great benefit for for the community and for the faith for the dean and for the umah uh if we have uh you know a realistic gradual uh pragmatist um and I do repeat I use this word and I understand that it has a bad reputation within our community but I I just I am basically trying to underscore the positive connotations of this word pragmatist uh so what if somebody were to say that this is reforming Islam No it's not did not change Islam when he changed the you know when he suspended the you know when he did not basically divide the conquered lands between uh between the conquerors or between the you know the armies um so this is not changing Islam this this is basically applying the Islamic principles to uh different realities and adapting to circum circumstantial variables excellent so again this is the key Point dear viewers is to understand this there's no Reformation going on the only reforming we're calling for is your understanding of what we're saying Islam is doesn't need Reformation rather it is the fine-tuning that the Shar allows right there's no you know Protestant Revolution going on we're protesting the shallow understanding of Islam that some people have in reality this is the wisdom that Allah has allowed within the Shar the fine-tuning and the uh uh the the gradualism that overall brings about a better sense of IM and a closeness to the Shar now we talked about apostasy we talked about blasphemy obviously there's multiple issues one thing we have to talk about is really sensitive but it needs to be done marriage and gender one of the most sensitive topics of our times and we have strong feel ings from the side of many of our sisters from the side of many of our brothers we have the rise of radical feminism we have the rise of the red pill and you know Alpha masculinity it's just a whole bunch of stuff going on here so let's try to have some inshallah deconstruction of this sensitive topic do you believe that Islam has come with specific gender roles no of course yes ask specific gender roles and no no one can argue about this uh but like I said the the you know your understanding may not be necessarily what Islam is about there is a spectrum of uh different uh interpretations uh that that you have to be aware of the spectrum that is the s that is knowing that this agreement between the scholars it will give you this broadness of your horizons and your your your approach to things so you have you have to know what the Islam says and uh when Islam says more than one thing that is basically we have different interpretations and no one can can say mine is Islam uh there there are matters of agreement between the scholars and then we can comfortably say this is what Islam says but often times there are disagreements and in this case you can't say this is what Islam says you know when we had this discussion this Supreme Court talked about abortion uh you you should not be saying this is what Islam says Islam says so many things about abortion uh so when you say that my interpretation is Islam I think that this is just self- deluded uh self conceited uh too arrogant so before we get to the the you know specific issues can you give us I know you have an entire book by the way he has an entire book has an entire book on gender roles and gender interactions right yeah so can you summarize in just a few minutes some of the main points that you believe uh Islam has come with that we can definitively categorically state that of the roles of a man in Islam and of the roles of woman in Islam so if in a nutshell okay so so so one of the things that Islam clearly uh basically PR prescribes here is that there will be some degree of uh responsibility and Authority for the man in within the household that's the verse 34 in so men have and here is the problem that we fall in sometimes when you know I would like to be an Islam a Muslim apologist you know I understand the Apologetics a little bit differently apologist apologetics or being a Muslim apologist is not about apologizing on behalf of Allah no it's you know the the word comes from defense to to put like a systematic defense uh or to put together a systematic defense uh for you know your Dean or your particular doctrines or uh so the apologia it comes from the apologia how you know Socrates uh uh basically uh um it was Plato calling the socrates's defense of himself in the court apologia so this is where it comes from it it is to defend your Dean it is not to apologize on behalf of Allah Allah does not need anyone to apologize on his behalf of course not but anyway but what Islam Muslim apologists often do is that sometimes when they are not guided when they're not grounded in Islamic knowledge and where they're trying to be a little too hasty to conform to circumstantial variables uh they can do like sort of detrimental patchwor where they can try to sort of patch different value systems in a way that results in inequity Injustice eventually so if you say for instance that is not about Authority whatsoever it is simply about responsibility whoever said that responsibility and Authority can be divorced from each other like whoever said that someone can basically have obligations put on them without corresponding rights whoever said that you could be the president of a country and have responsibilities only and have no rights what sense that is there is no sense in that whatsoever so that we have to have like uh we have to have uh basically a moderate truly moderate understanding of what that concept is about that K is about is responsibility and Authority at the same time it's you know profit basically is linked to uh liability it's it's always like this these Concepts go hand in hand so now the the the we have to agree that it means both responsibility and Authority but but now for for instance in uh some people think that uh there is a particular Arrangement that that is that is called Islamic for for the household for instance can women have careers well nowadays the problem is many people think that all the changes in the reality are caused by uh basically uh the trickle down effect of uh philosophy and thought and stuff like this and you can push back by uh counter philosophies counter thoughts no that's not true you know technological advancements have caused a lot more changes so the changes in our reality ow more to Newton than they owe to voler uh they owe more to technological advancement that's a nice way to phrase it I'm going to that mind yeah they owe more to technological advancement than they intellectual thinkers to int yeah yeah and and and science affected philosophy in the last 200 years more than more than philosophy affected science so things you know the the Industrial Revolution you know slavery could only have been banned after colonialism slavery there are so many things that changed in our reality not because of you know intellectuals or the trickle down of philosophy or because of real tangible changes and how do things reality uh in in people's reality so now uh in the past uh and and that's a problem that our Muslim women also need to understand that it was not the tyranny of men that kept them from realizing their potential it was just not doable like you know nowadays women have close to the earning potential of men right not not exactly there but very close many women have like a higher earning potential uh in many fields in many fields they they have equal earning potential or even higher earning potential but generally speaking they they they're not quite there you know so the CEOs of the forun 500 companies are mainly men you know you know the wealthiest 100 people are mostly men etc etc uh so it's they're not there yet and they may never be there uh but in the past in the past it it was not like basically a like a conspiracy like M conspiracy against them to deprive them of earning potential what were what were the jobs that were available blacksmithing fighting you know uh generally for them it was nurses and teaching was in most of so so there were many professions that they were not basically suitable for they were not suitable for uh they they were not going to be like and fighting was not basically like nowadays like you press a button and you drop a bomb no it was like required a lot of physical uh strength uh so so now you have the women who think that there was like a male conspiracy and it's time for them to rebuild and you have the men who don't recognize that things have changed and women now have like the earning potential that men have so nowadays like here's what happens within the Muslim family so the they like a two two working uh people uh get married and Islam does not prohibit women from uh from working you know the Hadith of KH jabber when she went out basically during her like during her period She went out to tend to her Orchard yeah and she was she was told to go back home and then she went to the prophet wasam and he said you know go out tint your orchard maybe you will be able to give charity or to take care of yourself uh so so Islam does not and as M used to carry the you know the the father for yeah zub's horse and for for three miles back and forth forth and so on so Islam did not prevent women from working outside but Islam wanted two things and it's clear for them to prioritize their family and for them to work within environments conduc to their values modesty is is a signature characteristic of of Islam so Islam wanted these women to observe these two things prioritize their family and uh work in environments that are conducive to maintaining their Islamic values having said that if you have two family physicians uh get married for instance and uh they they bring in the same income uh and and then because we've been trying to to tell women that Islam uh basically gives you everything uh modernity gives you and more so we are trying to say to them uh his money is his and yours and your money is yours only okay so she expects that he will be spending and she will be saving her income and she may even go as far as expecting that he would be spending and splitting his savings and she could save all of her income and then she expects that he would also basically since she goes out to work that he would also be flexible because she'll come back tired and she will not be able to make dinner so he will should be flexible enough to make his own dinner and stuff like this and he should pay for child care and and all of that does you know what senses this how could this be considered equ Equitable in any way and then at the same time you will have the man who expects that uh he could be married to his wife and she could stay home uh be a homemaker and give up her career give up advancing her career be a homemaker and after 30 years he can just divorce her and for 30 years ago yeah yes he he he can divorce her and give her the Deferred uh doy which you know sometimes there is the third part of the doy sometimes there is not but he just can divorce her and give her NAA for her like during her waiting period and give her you know not necessarily mut because it's controversial between the M uh that's it you know so so she she goes out okay so so so now the problem is her niece would never want to repeat that story her niece would never want her her daughter will never want to repeat that story and to be a homaker and to prioritize prioritize her family what is the difference between now and 500 years back now they have the same earning potential or close to the same earning potential as men she would be seeing her like friend you know like from high school who now has a career who's independent financially uh and comparing herself to her so so now we have to figure out how to adapt to these new realities and how to adapt with these new realities without changing compromise like without devastating our value system so there has you know men and women have to complement each other still they basically they they can't be uh uh sort of uh equal in all regards because it would make sense because or there can there cannot be similarity in in their roles in all regards because how do we complement each other if you're not different you you need to be different have different roles so that you complement each other so we will have to be mindful of this we will have to be mindful of the of the man to want him to be to want him to be responsible you have to give him some authority to demand to ask of him to be responsible for his family but that doesn't have to be the same type of that was practiced 100 years ago it it is it it it has to be re-envisioned it has to be basically reconceptualized but he has to still be the head of the household he has he still has the right to obedience but in what you know here's here is what it is obedience H happens in in different circles and s has a very great he was like a Muti in Egypt he has a great book on on the Muslim family where he says that obedience that there are different circles for obedience there is one at the center of obedience that is basically obedience when it comes to the marital relationship there is obedience that basically pertains to marital life in general and then there is a Wider Circle of obedience which is obedience unless he asks for like basically obedience period unless he asks for something that is non sensible non purposeful non Halal you know not does not only mean Halal but it also means sensible so if he asks for something that's non sensible nonpurposeful or non Halal then there is no obedience but at least at least you have to preserve the right to obedience when it comes to Mar marital life marital life that Circle uh and at the very least when it comes to the marital relationship yeah uh and and then you know certainly there are certain Hadith that talk about you know asking for her permission to go out and to you know not bringing in people into his his uh his home without his permission even that can you know can can be nuanced and can have different interpretations is that because it is his house he owns it or it is because he's the husband so IM Nai seems to think that it is because he owns that house so what if she co-owns it oh my go if she pays you're going to get into a lot TR for this no but but but but I'm just saying that you know so there there are different circles and then it is unlikely unlikely that you would expect people to observe or you expect women to observe the largest of those circles they would be recommended so she I have a different um way of explaining which is ending in the same result and that is when Allah says in the Quran this is the general rule are there is a level of authority there's no question about this right then Allah gives two and the first of them signifies the physical in particular if you look at the books of it is the fact that the man is hunting the man is protecting the man is at War so the man is physically protective and so obviously because he's physically more qualified Allah has given him and number two there there are also intellectual differences between the way women think in the way men think are more conducive for leadership priori sort of yes and the second one is which is financial now modern the modern world we live in has chipped away and eroded the need for that physical prowess and the economic disparity between the two genders this is it is what it is the modern world has taken away the need for that physical disparity now in the office everybody is exactly the same intellectually in terms of computer programming whatever it's really men and women are really the same in this regard by and large and the economic um Power that is now you know given to both genders it has also Stripped Away Once Upon a Time the financial uh um uh responsibilities and the financial preference the men had so when both of the have been chipped away understandably the result which is is also going to be chipped away is going to have to be rethought it's not something we are we are happy about it's not something we're embracing but it is a reality we have to deal with and here's my point in and of itself to rethink through the implications of is not against as long as is maintained right and so the nuances of what entails is cultural is but the manifestation of will change from time to place so the way that my grandfather and grandmother interacted together you know in the 1800s in in in British India whatever is not binding on how myself and wife much less my daughter and her husband in the future are going to have to interact so this is the way I phrased it any disagreement with that phrase I I would just say that we have to maintain the and we also cannot basically restrict to set of qualities that that we assume because of the qualities that Allah had favored them with Allah had favored men with certain qualities we cannot limit them to physical strength uh we we this will continue to be there will it it will stand yes I agree with the economic disparity that the you know has been almost clearly eliminated or or totally eliminated but will stay so will stay but again at the same time because she's now contributing uh to to the certain Financial uh stability of the family then it will not be the same as it was 200 years ago but we have to maintain the family structure we have to maintain that structure we have to maintain the the husband as the head of the household because of the necessity of having ahead for any functioning successful institution sh a company State there has to be eventually some if you will have constant fight constant negotiation over all things without decision making being granted to any party then that's a prescription for destruction of the family and the subsequent destruction of the society men have to understand that there that things are different they do have the close to the same earning potential than men and if you marry her and divorce her after 40 years and expect her to take her suitcase and walk out uh and then expect her niece and daughter to want to repeat that story you you are deluded so Islam would come in now and say no we will protect that woman we will give her as you know this was part of the decisions of amja in the amja Family Code which which I really recommend for people to read am's Family Code because it's it is very traditional very Orthodox but at the same time very cognizant of the changes in in our reality when it comes to custody when it comes to maintenance and and things of that nature so so we will take the concept of muta for instance which is the bement gift consolation gift alimon whatever it is that you want to translate it as but you take that concept of mut and you take the POS the scholarly position that M is for all diversity for all the fores not only for those who have not had like a uh you know you know like a a designated you know so m in in in Islam that there is before the Contra between the contract and uh b or the consummation of marriage and after the consummation of marriage between the contract and the consummation of marriage if she had a designated s she gets half the designated s if she doesn't have a designated s she gets the mut everybody agrees on that M except that IM Malik who considered it still to be recommended not obligatory but then after the consummation of marriage they disagree whether divorcees will have a mut or not because they had their Mah so some of the scholars said they're not entitled to M but there is this position which is in agreement with the apparent meaning of the Quran for the the the the generalized unqualified statement of the Quran that the mutat will have a consolation gift uh which will vary from time to place culture yes exactly so in this case we can employ this and we can take the position of the scholars who say it's for all mutat and we can compensate the woman uh and there would be a panel of Scholars who would put in consideration the duration of marriage his contribution to the marriage and so on and the the the cause behind the divorce so in other words to be very specific then and think we're both an absolute agreement as usual which is a bit terrifying all the time always coming in other words there is no rejection of the there is no changing of Allah's if we say in modern times for some couples uh a type of you know alimony or a type of uh settlement that is done in which a divorced lady will get more than her M if she hasn't been working and if the husband has no legitimate need to divorce her and now she has no other source of income that it is permissible to quranic there's nothing you know change being done to actually allow for more than what perhaps our earlier Scholars would have allowed for and if if you think what our earlier scars had allowed for they say so the least is basically to give her a garment and the highest is to give her a servant well do you mean what a servant means it's quite expensive if if if you actually give her enough to hire a servant for the rest of her life that's that's quite expensive but again what we have anyway but but but you but but then this is a statement this is a scholarly statement but then we can adapt to our new realities and we can figure out how much what is fair for this woman what is fair to to basically give her financial security for the rest of her life and what would be fair so that her niece and her daughter will think no she was not wronged uh she still had Financial Security I could still dedicate myself to homem making I could still PRI prioritize the family I can sacrifice advancing my career for my family so in order for a woman to enter entertain in order for and you're not talking about like a small group of women that would basically uh would not entertain all of this or would not be concerned about Financial Security in the future would not be concerned about no you're talking about the masses the Shar is not for you know your your small group that that resides in your small e e chamber online on social media the Sharia is meant for all the Muslims out there J so what we have as usual is um knee-jerk reactions on both sides you have those that are acquiescing to Modern Notions of feminism in which they do believe these simplistic ideas that uh even if they're working even if they're bringing money to the table even if they have this notion that okay the man has all respons ibility and I don't owe him anything including and everything that I earn is absolutely mine and no no marriage is going to function like this then you have on the flip side uh some of our our brothers who are wanting to find cultural values of a century ago and assuming that they are Islamic and each one feeds into The Stereotype of the other what we are both arguing is that there is nothing wrong with taking our situation into account and understanding that it is natural and normal that will be rethought even as we still affirm there is something called and that financial obligations and financial responsibilities and uh marital or or or divorce situations can be changed in light of modern times in fact what we are arguing and I think you're Sim we meaning the council and amja is that we should enforce an Islamic prenuptual agreement where in a prenuptual agreement we actually have percentages put in such that it becomes a for theah right so this is one of the ways we can get out of it so before we uh wrap up in one other again sensitive issue and that is gender interactions and in particular uh the notion of of you know living in the west as we do uh we have our sisters you know going pretty much everywhere dressed in what the point is they are dressed appropriately we'll get to what if they're inappropriately addressed meaning they're not fully wearing the hijab what we mean by that in this particular circumstance but then when it comes to our Islamic Gatherings our Islamic conferences to what level of strictness are we required to apply must we bring about complete segregation in our Islamic Gatherings because there's arguments both ways as you're aware and to summarize for our viewers those that are on the strictor side have a legitimate argument like hey this is our space let us control to the Max and let us have full segregation and on the other side you have the I would say some pragmatists who say hey look many of our brothers and sisters they're not to that level and if we were to be ultra strict they're not coming and listening to the lectures and so we are not going to enforce that type of complete segregation rather we have an understanding that yet this an Islamic culture and environment nothing overtly Haram taking place so we're going to be a little bit on the laxer side fact of the matter is the majority of conventions are actually all mainstream conventions are on that side so so you have the critics who then come along and argue these aren't Islamic because they're not enforcing and there are non-h hijabi sisters coming along and the speakers like myself and yourself attend these conventions and from our perspective we feel that there's no question hijab is mandatory we feel that there are bigger priorities at this stage because many of the people in the audience are not at a level where they're going to be embracing certain aspects of Islam so we have this back and forth between those critics who accuse us and others of selling out or of watering down or of not enforcing versus our understanding and it could be wrong here where we feel this is not the time and place when we have 10,000 Muslims the majority of whom are not even praying five times a day the majority of are all in major sin this is not the time to nitpick something that is not on the top 510 of our list here so little bit of thoughts about this issue of segregation especially when it comes to Islamic conventions and lectures well so so um the book that you pointed out the or you uh referred to the book that I wrote on gender interaction it's male female interaction in Islam I had a picture of uh like a classroom like where men and women coexist in the same classroom and I had the speaker which was supposedly a man facing the men and the women were to the side a little bit they still able to see the speaker uh there is no partition between them and the speaker but they were a little bit to the side where the speaker is not facing the women uh all the time I you know I think that people would be entitled to critique you know uh you know like a young male preacher or speaker sitting across uh from like a well good appearing woman all relative I'm going to push back here it's all relative it's all subjective all these adjectives you're using but but at the same again at the same time these are going to Define these recognizable recognizable uh things our scholar have always talked about these Concepts uh our you know forget about it not completely uh not well-dressed not uh like for for forget about will appearing uh because a young man sitting across from a young woman for one and a half hours uh I think it's it's a setup that's a little bit problematic like if you have a young man sitting here and a young woman sitting there and they're basically uh face to face for one and a half hours and you're telling him lower your gaze the wait you say in just the two of them or you talking about no I'm talking about even if it is like 200 people but he's sitting right across from like a young woman uh that may not be properly uh Dressed and they he's sitting across from her for like uh 2 hours 1 hour 45 minutes half an hour that is not conducive to lowering your gaze like that doesn't Allah say you know say to the believing men to lower their gaze like is is this Arrangement conducive to lowering your gaze what what is the lowering your gaze about then uh if we're not going to to try to make arrangements for this to happen so like you're 25 years old she's 25 years old you're sitting across from each other for like 45 minutes and then supposedly you're lowering your gaze oh how is that happening so sh one example which is I think definitely on the more extreme side let's be more but okay so so in in in in my in the drawing that I have in the book I have the women to one side there is no partition between the speaker and the women exactly like you had it yesterday at Epic didn't we have the seminar the zaka seminar yesterday at Epic I was facing the men the women were to the side the women were a little bit to the side I think that if a woman was given that lecture I would have placed her table across from the women that's exactly how we do it at our Miss by the way the men would to the side so that the arrangement is sensitive to our values and to the concept of lowering your gaze and in that picture that I had in the book I had a partition and I wrote next to the partition are optional in you know I go to different places sometimes they have the partition sometimes I don't tell them remove it sometimes they don't I don't tell them put it at M where I usually conduct my classes they have we have that partition between men and women but again at the same time there is no partition between me and the sisters I am sitting here facing the men the sisters are a little bit personally I agree with you this is the ideal and that's what we do in our Masjid personally however even this is too liberal for some people and it is too strict for others as you're aware but the M of the Prophet did not have a physical partition between men and women his women were behind the men the argument given by the modern critics is that our modern women are not dressed appropriately all the time compared to the but let's get now to the more explicit question and that is the conventions that are beyond our control you're invited to these mainstream ones so am I and you're well aware that there is no segregation in 5,000 people 10,000 people there is not even a organic I.E yeah sure there are you know certain women that just sit together certain men but overall in the audience the I don't think I don't think that we we we're required to have physical segregation I think that there should be basically self-motivated segregation because the the speakers and the Muslim preachers need to be teaching people about Islamic modesty and appropriate Islamic Behavior so that there will be self-enforced um not complete segregation but self enforced modesty you know where the the women would choose to sit next to women and the men would choose to sit next to men and there would not be inappropriate interaction you're saying the preachers would teach this but this is theosophy is yes the preachers of course must teach this but and I could be wrong but in these massive conventions the priority at that point in time for these 5 10,000 people we know who they are they're the ones that don't come to the Masid regularly they're the ones that for the priority for them is not to be taught segregation at this stage the priority for them is to make them feel for the um the priority for them is to feel a sense of to come closer to Allah subhana wa tala to love their religion there are people that leaving the faith at these types of conventions so My Philosophy these large mainstream conventions that I'm not in charge of where I'm in charge of we have the segregation we don't bring up issues of segregation we don't bring up issues of the hijab not because I don't believe in them but because I don't think this is the right time or place or for to do that these are the times where as I said we bring them a sense of for their um and a sense of pride of being Muslim right now the critics allege that this is a watering down and a betrayal of the that is given unto us and a response I simply say I have given multiple lectures in my Masid about hijab and about women's roles and issues and whatnot and this is for those that are more interested in these topics right so do you you yourself when you go to and I know you go to these conventions you yourself do not talk about segregation on those platforms not to put you on the spot sorry I don't I don't go to those conventions but like you know I rarely go uh to to those conventions but I don't blame people who go to those conventions and I don't basically decide for them what they believe to be uh the right discourse for at at at that time I just have one reservation about people who use the priority card or the priorities card to never address those issues like someone who is an Imam in a Masjid for instance for 25 years and uh he has never addressed those issues because it is not a priority it's not fair enough you have to you like you have to help we're talking we talked about erdogan uh before in a previous discussion with you uh so you have to say to yourself it has been 20 years I we I took this congregation from point A to point B but you can't basically be uh stand still in you know and and say that it it is not the right time it's been 20 years like what have you done uh you know you you need to be concerned about Islamic manners Islamic etiquet Islamic way of life you need to be agreed okay basically uh you you need to consider those things but when will you do it how will you do it how you know where these are question these are you you will have to figure out the answers to those questions and no one can dictate to a particular preacher when how and where uh to do these things but they just need to be concerned and they need to be doing something about it yeah yeah okay so in let us summarize and wrap up in so we were talking about gradualism and pragmatism uh and the slow um application of and uh in this regard is that uh there seems to be enough leeway and uh permissibility to have a long-term Vision that is implemented in smaller steps and this applies not only to Muslim majority lands but also in uh situations like here in America where we feel the da uh does require many steps to get to the final goal any final comments you have about this issue of pragmatism and and and gradualism um no I I believe um that this this this is the case and I believe that uh there should always be priorities and I believe that uh people who are not praying uh it may not be a prior it to talk to them about Islamic etiquet of mingling and to address their greater like like if you have cancer you're probably not going to be that concerned about um like a benign mole on your hand or something so there is there there's certainly must to be prioritization and a prudent approach to and preaching and in general uh is necessary is is vital for our success everywhere in Muslim majority lands or mus or wherever we are as Muslim minorities but particularly so uh where where there are Muslim minorities because uh those Muslims uh should not be pushed away of course they should be accommodated they should be welcomed that they should not be pushed away because it is very easy for them to get lost uh and and when we do so this is not a Reformation of the religion whatsoever and contrary to what many of the critics alleg this is simply applying the wisdom within the sh that is allowed by Allah subhana wa tala demonstrated by our Sal and our throughout history and uh when we learn and study we understand this is what the sh itself allows us to do inshah with this for spending so much time may Allah bless may Allah put and in we hope to have further conversations viewers if you have specific topics you're interested in more than happy to continue these conversations with our and inah we will see you until next [Music] [Music] time for [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] am