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hello and welcome to today's webinar digital safety files which has currently been organized by wir SMS Island branch my name is Holly and I'm heartedly professional development team here at double IRS M before I hand over to our Island branch chair Paula Shea and our speaker for today will be Gallagher I'm just going to run through a couple of things first so it's begin with you'll be all new to the duration of the webinar but if you have any questions please feel free to ask these using the chat function on the bottom right hand corner and we will take 5-10 minutes at the end of Bobby's presentation to address these and then secondly the webinar is being recorded and a copy of the recording will be placed on the WI RSM YouTube channel after the event ok that's enough for me Paul over to you thanks Holly polishe the current chair of the Irish branch of the IRS M I'd like to welcome Bobby Gallaher this morning from D FM systems Bobby's one of the market runs a company and owns the company of that market leaders on digital systems and oh and M manual safety files etc for their projects there a lot of approach that we're working on and them I got a pass you over to Bobby now who's going to give you an overview how best to deliver a digital safety file om on your project after you Bobby ok thanks Paul and I'd like to thank the double arrow Sam for the opportunity to tell pieces over digital safety files and operating and maintenance manuals so beginning with the end in mind and what is the the purpose of a safety file and from my point of view and the purpose of a safety file is to deliver all of the information needed to safely operate and maintain a building and and all of the services associated with that building anyone working on the building doing modifications or extensions must also be able to access the safety file as to alert themselves 20 inherent risks associated with her intended work and also importantly the safety file should contain any information needed in relation to future demolition any risks associated with future demolition of the of the buildings but this in the perspective with regard to the double RSM I thought it'd be useful to show the definition of a safety file as shown on the HSA website and as you can see from the extract shown on this slide the safety file contains information relevant to the health and safety risks associated with maintaining or repairing the building and to do that it must contain information on how the building was designed to construct it together with information on all of the products and equipment installed within the building this can run through many thousands of documents and as build drawings all of which need to be accessible very quickly and easily and retrieved and also the file must be capable of being updated as new information is available or needed within the file depending on whether you're swapping out pieces of equipment or and adding new and services or information onto the console project itself all of the stack reminders are the importance of information contained within the safety file mr. Granville Tara's tragedy which claimed the lives of 72 people the inquiry into this resulted in the heckard report which devoted an entire chapter said they need to maintain full building information and for building records the enquiry heard a lot of concern regarding the ineffective operation of the current regulations and rules regarding the creation maintenance and handover of building information and firing safety information it found that generally we're building information as present it's often incomplete or held in paper form and so it was not accessible I was to the people who need to see it no although the Grenville terra's tragedy occurred in the UK I think the findings of the of the report particularly in relation to chapter 8 which is regarded as they are known as the golden trailer of building information it applies equally to the conditions here in Ireland when we consider the information needs of the building owner and the facilities team we need to understand the vast amounts of information that's generated during the design and construction phase of a project as well as during the operation and maintenance phase post handover this information is used by the building owner for many purposes for example and it can be used for space planning and for operating the maintenance and for repairs and upgrades capital asset management and lifecycle asset management information used in space planning systems can be can be of great assistance in the planning work space usage managing meeting rooms and reporting on problems with services in the building such as light bulbs or light fittings and out of operation but I think more use is made of the safety file and the operating the maintenance manuals obviously for operation and maintenance purchases and this is particularly useful when integrated with plan preventative maintenance software solutions such as IBM Maximo or our own and planned preventative maintenance application the building owner or the FM team and need to be able to find information easily when in the building when they're carrying over para maintenance so the typical questions they're trying to cover within the scope of the documentation it sounded over is one what's the location of the equipment what what room was pumped number two and for example how I got an operating and maintenance manual for that month importantly it's important to know whether the equipment is still under warranty we've seen many situations where equipment is replaced when an actual fact it probably still covered within the warranty of the of the project so having access to the warranty information on the equipment is also very relevant too because savings on the project it's also important to know when the equipment was last maintained and is there a service log on the on the equipment as I said when when you're trying to repair a piece of equipment and you need to have the information readily to hand and to avoid an unnecessary costs involved in searching for information or not being able to carry out the repairs as efficiently as needed on the project that I could full on an information and deliberate handover can also lead to a shortened service life for the plans and equipment and this is particularly a problem in situations where the FM team don't have the confidence in the information that was delivered or don't have the information delivered at the handover phase of a project and in those situations in a lot of cases they end up having to reorder the building or scrape information from paper documents to populate their maintenance Alpher see from the slide on the screen not being able to start maintenance operations and immediately after after takeover of the building can and have a dramatic effect on the service life of a building some of the experiences that were gained from that study were showing that it can take up to six months to manually load information into a maintenance application so it's important from her point of view when we deliver information that we deliver it in a format that can be consumed into the building owners maintenance application or software applications and avoid the need that he has to intake in terms of trying to load up manually into into a system one of the studies that we came across also and detailed the cost of lack of information and when trying to fulfill work orders and it put a value of three-year-old fifty per square meter per year and a cost to building owners and for sixty percent of the workers they believed that sixty percent of the work orders and executors cost three euro fifty per square meter more and because of the lack of information and then if you do a quick calculation on that and into Irish terms a building and designed to accommodate possibly 100 people and could cost up to eight thousand the euro per year and just to carry her work orders sorry not to carried the workers out but the additional cost of carrying out those work out is due to the lack of information and within the redundant system itself there are many questions asked of the facilities manager or building owners and particularly when a property at Spa result questions such as the location the local environment the condition of the building energy efficiencies and running costs and however more recently insurers are also beginning to ask questions about the building and more quickly and more detailed questions in relation to the fixtures and fittings within the building the one in a wok material and the fixtures and fittings are made of when they were last checked what's the make and specification for example of the fire doors of these fire extinguishers in the building they're asking have these items being checked regularly have they been maintained and is there maintenance details logged regularly and more importantly from their point of view have you got a digital data record of this information and have you got digital evidence to prove that you've actually carried out the maintenance on the building and as you can see from some of the text box on the screen and one large rate that we work with on a regular basis believes that having a detailed and proper safety file in place can save up to two or three weeks in the sales process on a project because the information is readily available and people don't have to go searching for that information and the other interesting fact that we came across recently was a project we we were were being asked and very detailed questions by the Financial Controller around the project and were surprised at the level of detail and information that he was going into on the project when we asked in more detail and drill down to try and find out exactly what the what the issue was and it transpired that the building or the last building the particular building were we were working on with him and was an upgrade from previous it was a refit out taking place in the building and the company and it was a building contractor but it was their building they had built it ten years ago and had a tenant for ten years and now they were passing that on and getting a new tenant in for a long-term lease and going through a major refit and they believed that the cost of the lack of information in the file for the old building custom sixty thousand and that was that they're building their safety file and because of the lack of information in that safety file they believed they put a value of 60,000 on that so the Financial Controller was particularly concerned to make sure that he wasn't going to be faced with another 60,000 in ten years time when they came to to to get another new tenant into into his building we started delivering safety files as digital safety files over ten years ago and one of the recommendations of the heckard report that I referenced earlier was that our information should be available in a digital format rather than in paper and so that information is available quickly and easily and when people need it if you consider the fact that if it's a paper-based system the location of the safety file is more likely to be within some service room or a back-end room of the building if there's a problem and an emergency on the building and you need access to that information and for example you know the fire in the building if there's a major instance where people are at having to vacate the building if your safety forum your information that will help you in dealing with that emergency is within the building it's gonna be very difficult to use that information so having it in cell form and particularly having it in a hosted version available online is by far the most efficient way of having that information we see in a lot of cases but the specification comes out and asks for a soft copy and but I'd like to highlight the fact that simply requesting a soft copy of the safety file won't result in a digital safety file unless the file is delivered in a software solution complete with a simple user interface and a search engine then you're probably gonna end up with a bigger mess on your hands than if you had received it in paper if you accept or receive a safety file containing nine ten thousand documents on a USB stick or the CD or a hard drive and trying to find information in that and when it's probably not properly labeled probably the father never names properly it's going to be a bigger job than having the information in paper so simply asking for a soft copy in our view and will not give you the information and probably in most cases will end your end up with bigger and more more problematic than taking the information in paper in the first place some of the cost of poor information is the down to the fact that operating the mains and it seems it's been found spend or can't spend up to 20 percent of their time in the asset information system looking for information rather than hold on the on the field fixing the problems and maintaining the plant and equipment it's been found that up to five percent of a company turnover and could be saved and by efficient information management and more important than that or as importantly in that is an additional one to five percent and savings can be made if that information is available in a user-friendly front-end so it's easy and intuitive to find information so what do we do we basically and deliver what we regard as a digital building manual which includes everything needed to operate and maintain the building and importantly it also includes the original design drawings and specs together with as well details so there's a full other trail in terms of any changes that have taken place from the original design intent to what was actually constructed and going back to the ground full terror situation and where the only piece of information that the fire service had to work off was a photograph of the building rather than any documentation and even then the photograph and showed man conditions and that didn't exist and when the fire the project was was finally and complete so by being able to provide full of the trail including the original design intent wound in the safety file and it can be clearly demonstrated and what what changes were made were made who decided to make the change what was the purpose of the change and point was the original design change for whatever reason we've delivered at the distance safety file or digital building manual some of the largest projects in Ireland such as the convention center and we recently completed the file for capital duct we've also done all of the files for Google's commercial headquarters man sped over the Google Docs accounts and in the centrosome Google Docs campus and in the central Dublin central bank the the refit of the central bank or the old hangar wash and shells down on north wall we've been lucky to to also provide a safety fair for most of the technology companies large technology companies in Ireland such as Twitter Linkedin [Music] Vava desk in the one woman elaine project it's on the purchase were currently working on into wisdom park and the national rehab and developments in dairy so whenever we're working on a project we see information as an asset and an asset that's almost as important and probably as important as the actual physical assets because if you don't have information on the asset it's almost impossible to get through value from the assets you certainly won't be able to say certainly won't be able to maintain it and probably won't be able to operate it as efficiently as maybe but to make information of any value it needs to be digital searchable accessible and accurate and accurate is probably the more important of of all of those functions because it gives information Saturday it can lead to [Music] dramatic problems on the on the project itself that asset information has to answer many questions and such as what's the capability of the equipment how does it work what parts do I need for servicing and maintaining it what procedures do I need to follow when I'm installing it or when I'm operating or maintaining it who supplied it and where do I have to go to to get replacement costs and what warranties for example the e are in place so a good safety father a good operating the maintenance menu will allow you to get answers to all of those questions in a single place without having to take off searching and searching for information in various different places so to do that obviously we need to work to the standards and the current standards that we are working to in relation to billing information in 1960 fifty parts one and two for any more familiar with and ISIL 19 650 yeah or the old past 1192 it's a standard that's mainly adopted in relation to being were 3d modeling well mainly they might say brother than 3d modeling on jobs because as always it they debate as to whether it's a BIM project or between modeling projects and a lot of people tend to think of being as purely 3d modeling when actually fact we would see it as building information management or Building Information modeling so the old standard path 1192 and was replaced about 18 months ago by place for 19 650 which isn't no occurred in international standard and the slides i've put up on the screen at the UK versions of iceland 1960 50 and because one of the requirements of the new iso standard is that each country adopt an annex and to set some of the standards and to be used such as document types naming convention on documents and the like Ireland hasn't yet implemented a national annex so the closest we have is to take the UK national annex which sets out some guidelines and standards in terms of how you should name documents and assets we'll put in a safety father an asset information system safety file is only as good as the information it's in the file so it care needs to be taken in terms of collecting that information to ensure that it's relevant they don't end up with hundreds and hundreds of pages of catalog cuts when really what we're looking for is two pages out of that catalog and the references are detailed the information on the particular equipment rather than the the the catalog of equipment that might or might not have been just project all of the projects we work on all the digital safety files we build we build using technical auditors who are qualified and experienced in building information systems and we use architectural technicians and engineers to ensure that the information that's in the file is relevant to the service and to the to the building in which were working on we manage the whole process collecting the information from subcontractors and main contractors reviewing that information before presenting it to the design team for approval are there and we would work closely with the pstp on our projects to ensure that the information that's being collected is fit for purpose and is the information required on the project itself the other important item to note about the benefits of using a digital safety file rather than a paper-based file is the ability to link information so we can present that information or it display that information in three or four different locations but in all cases it's still the same single piece of information and and doing it that way we avoid the need for the user to move from what sections of the first one section of the photo dealer so having to go to one place to find as live drawings have to go to somewhere else to find operating the maintenance instructions that's time consuming and inefficient so it's far better to be able to collect all that information and present it in one single interface and being able to duplicate the information so being able to leave the information rather than duplicating information and allows us to make best use of of the files all the technologies that can be used in terms of collecting information into the safety file and operating and maintenance manuals is using smartphones and we've developed an app that will allow us to collected information on an existing building and create a safety file and operating the maintenance manuals from that but we also use the same technology to verify information going into the safety file so if we visit site towards the end of construction and and take photographs comparing that in fare and details comparing that information with the information in sexually sitting in the file that's information that was given to us and were collected by us at the start of the project we're now able to with the smartphone verify the death the same information and matches the model numbers and product numbers of the equipment's that's being installed on the on the produce itself where the 3d model on the project and we can extract information from that 3d model and to form the basis of the safety file so every every item in a construction project if the drawings are produced from 3d models and in most cases on large-scale buildings these days that's what's happening if the information is in the training model because the models being used to be used to drawings and then we can take that information from the model and it gives us a schedule of equipment and services and finishes that we need to document within the safety file itself it ensures that all of the information needed for the the file is present in the file and by using the linking system that we do the building owner is actually able to walk through the safety fog in fact he's able to walk through the building and virtually checking clicking on every object in the city and the virtual walk through the building to make sure he has the information and the documentation on the file before he occupies the building annual familiar with the Cobie [Music] recognized so the information that so far astray enthroned Kobe is an exchange mechanism arranged change format for information and to allow information to be exchanged from one server solution to another but the standard that's being called up on most bim projects at the moment where the owner is trying to make sure that he's receiving the operating the maintenance information and for use in his calf home systems or as maintenance systems at the end of the project and we've developed means and mechanisms to import information from toby spreadsheets and to populate the information within the safety file itself this is just some of the shots off of Cobie spreadsheet it's it's not a pretty animal and it only makes shape or form but if it's used intelligently and properly it can save a lot of time and effort in populating a camera maintenance system regardless of whether we use Cobie or anything else the most important thing from our point of view just to make sure that there's a clear and acid naming convention being used across all of the documentation and all of the information in a system if someone's calling a piece of equipment one item in the drawing then a different description or a name for that same item in the operation and maintenance manuals you'll never find information within the safety file that really comes to to atone in relation to 3d modeling because the standards used for training modeling and don't necessarily lend themselves very friendly to are very easily 2fm friendly names for items of equipment they usually named as you'll see on the the Revit text on the screen they're named to suit the software rather than facility FM needs on the job but with some guidelines and instructions it's not a hard job to make sure that there's commonality of hazard naming across all of the information sources on a project the other way of collecting information from our point of view is to provide a forum which allows all of the participants and the project uploaded their information directly to the safety file no it won't go directly into the file it goes as far as a review gate and then one of the engineers or technical evidence room and the receiving organization will review that information before it's presented and pushed true into the into the safety file itself at all times and we should be able to any decent safety file and should be able to report on the progress of the file during construction on the on the project and we use it a 10 stage sort of traffic light system to show what information is required on the project and what information has been collected at any stage during the construction of the project to ensure that when we reach conclusion RPC on the project and that the file is ready for her handover rather than scrambling around the last couple of weeks or the last couple of days trying to populate as a safety for information overload can be as bad as no information and so Karen needs to we made it take to make sure that we don't end up with a tsunami of information coming at the end of the construction when you don't have enough time to review and check that information so from our point of view we want to see the ability that we can stare at on a project at the initial construction stage and then clip away slowly at that project over the next 12 months or eight months or whatever duration of the project so the information is collective progress and we have the time to review the information to make sure that it's fit for purpose and suitable for the job at this stage I'd just like to take you through a brief overview of the digital building manual as winglets ears as I said way back at the start it's designed to ensure that there's a complete library of information of everything needed to operate and maintain the building what we will include in our safety files is a complete asset register a schedule of warranties scheduler maintenance and we also have the ability to carry out life cycle as it and calculations for management functions and the file itself to be truly effective and should be capable local operating online standalone or on the local area network so there's no there's no barrier to people being able to access and use the information so typically our system will include a structure of all of the information we generally break it down by and elements of construction you know whether it's certain external and mechanical services electrical services and so on once you get into the service you're looking for information on all of the information and whether it's the documents the drawings or the assets they should all be available and accessible in a single screen on the job which can be searched and typing in a single keyword or a group of keywords on the search engine to be able to ring you back every reference to the information when in the file itself once you find the file you're looking for the internal viewer and and quick and easy access to that information I mentioned earlier and the ability to integrate with 3d models so in this situation and we select a clarifier heat exchanger or in the building and selecting one link on the right hand side sorry on the left hand side of the screen you can go straight to the location within the safety file where that information resides so from there we're in the asset register we have to get the full details on the asset what's the serial number model number and so on and then on the various different tabs we'll in this screen you can get all the documentation associated with that particular asset itself the system will include a full asset register and which includes also supplier details and manufacturer details all of the warranties available on the project should be collected in a single location so the building owner knows what conditions he has to fulfill to maintain the warranty and also when the warrant is due to expire and that can be used to do a quick oh that around the equipment a month or so before the warranties are due to expire to make sure that everything is still operating as it should be on the project as we collect information and operating the maintenance manuals we're extracting maintenance requirements from that so that we can build a ready reckoner for the building owner showing him everything he needs to do in terms of planned preventative maintenance on every component in the project including for example the wall finishes or the green roof on the project itself we include a full CRM of all the suppliers and manufacturers so that replacements can be easily and quickly sought or purchased we also use QR codes within the system and and that will allow us to place a QR code or lately we're starting to use NFC codes and that can be placed on items of equipment and using either the QR code or the NFC code a service technician can scan the code and access the information on the equipment and very quickly and very easy life cycle asset management I mentioned earlier and is the ability to be able to create 2025 year projections in terms of what equipment and what castes are associated with replacement equipment over the next ten or twenty years and on some projects were actually producing a sinking fund and cost analysis on the project while it's still in construction and so the building are when he receives the safety file knows what level of sinking fund or what money he needs to set aside over the course of the next 20 25 years to cover the replacement cost of the equipment within his building one of the important things I mentioned earlier was being able to access the the file in an online system we work on the basis that our our systems are web enabled rather than web-based and by that I mean that the system should be able to work whether you have an internet connection right now so it'll work in an offline version or an online version online when you have the access and you can access it from any part of the world but if you lose your internet connection you should still be able to access that information I'm just coming towards the end of the the presentation but I wanted to touch briefly on 3d viewers because one of the things that are cropping up frequently in recent months is the use of 3d viewers are a bit what we're a 3d model is used on a project building owners can find it difficult to navigate a 3d model when presented with something like Navisworks or cerebrum as a chequered man or model viewer and because you need some sort of dexterity with a mouse to be able to navigate into the building and if you're not doing it on a daily basis it can be tricky and cumbersome to to do that to get into the point where you find the equipment so what we've found over the last 12 months is a system there are those two navigated 3d models from a 2d floor plan so we can imagine this as the PDF floor plan of the building and I'd like to see the details on the equipment in this recreation room all I've gotta do is place my finger using an iPad place my finger in the recreational room I get a small dialog box that offers me a 3d view of the room by pressing that I'm straightening to the 3d view of the room know if I want to move to a different place on the on the screen I can navigate to a different part of the building by just moving my finger to a different room on the on the 2d floor plan and straight away I'm getting the 3d view of the room and we find that it's a much more intuitive way for building owners who are enough familiar with navigating 3d models to be able to visualize the information very quickly and very easy from a set of floor plans the last pieces and being able to make the the system live or maintain it as live and again going back to that I could record if the information remains static at the point of time when the building was handed over then in most cases it's going to be able to date by the time real problem arises on the job or on the project and you need to get access to that information so keeping it online but also keeping it in this in a situation that you can actually upload new information to the farm results in maintaining a live system within our system if it's in hosted on the website you can actually upload your plan preventative maintenance schedule into a calendar and using that camera and allow the service engineer to upload his service records to the website as he completes the service on the project or if equipment is is swapped out and because it needs to be replaced that can easily be done and by uploading into the website and that way it keeps the the full safety file and as a living document on on the project and that brings me to the end of the of the presentation as I have it I hope I've covered and everything that you expected to find from information on safety files and operate the maintenance manuals and I'm happy to take any questions now and I hand it back spot thanks thanks very much very insightful a comprehensive review of digital systems the importance of planning and overall planning a job a job as an inception staging or maturity and how its managed centrally processor said I think a year message there is a plan early from the end result I am delivering that webinar very good matter and comprehensive food you there and any questions go ahead hi honey just gonna go through some questions that if anyone so we're getting a few questions coming up but but those the first question I talked about planning and from your own point of view how early do you feel you need to get involved approach best of the most benefit the project that you're involved in we would like to get involved in the project at the very very start if we wait on from the ends of the project a lot of the early stage finishes and may or may be come from the project and we have difficulty trying to secure the information needed for the safety file if we're involved from the start we can ensure as packages are finished and contractors are ready to move on to all the jobs that the information that they've delivered for the file is its complete so it's better for us to get involved at an early stage in our project so when you say early stage I know some of the conversations we've had with our own crews that like any stage in Italy pretty frequently having that discussion and the design phase with the client and ensure that the client understands the expectation with an owner told soft copy versus digital copy gets confused a lot so am having a digital working file a searchable foil editable file is very important you know I think I think getting involved at the original you know the basic planning and design stage allows us to enter with the building owner and ensure we've covered his needs and building the file because in a lot of cases they may have particular software solutions or planned preventative maintenance applications that they want to use when they occupy the building so we can deliver the information to them in a format that that will be consumed into that system and at the end of the project that at the end of the construction project it's a much more efficient way of delivering the information safety for learning essentially they're the one on the same I mean it's a safety five will encompass OMS and om won't necessarily encompass the safety file so the the safety father if you like is the overall umbrella that will include many different names and but in the overall scope of the safety file so just being at Cusco I just say I think that we're moving into large residential fields down in the industry and been to be your shirt building energy rating for the Irish market should just be a safety for annoyed I think so when we talk about speaking you know just on the basic standards or DD the the legal definition of a safety file you could argue that being in Europe has nothing to do with the safe operating the maintenance of the building and but if you to make the safety file of through value to the building owner it should include everything so we would include planning permission details for first application and grant any legal documents and beaker and still research and compliance certs and I think we would also include where we can need to be your certain ratings yeah very good I been born with a silly question but as he says himself who owns the safety father Bobby the building owner should own the safety button and those own safety file and because he's he's a legal obligation to be in possession of the safety file and to make that available to anyone else carrying out work any construction work on this building and that that includes as I said in the in the presentation that includes demolition or even even the cleaning of the the windows on the outside of a high-rise building and that will be considered as construction related so and yet building on it owns the safety part very good I know somebody's flag goes double sound it was a little bit just double sound at the end there so that just passed still wrong very good question and it's thank you for the presentation and just to statutory duty on building hours to have a digital safe I'm supposed to the statutory duty to have a safety foot but relationship digital safety file expend no the requirement is that he's in building owner is in possession of a safety for that can be a paper-based safety file and he could be the mess on a CD of the you know self copy but if you're going to go to the particularly now with the size of buildings and bim used on most projects it makes perfect sense to go with a digital file because if you compare it with the some of the slides that I showed that way back in the start of the presentation the building the owner or the f-m came on behalf of the building art that's that's where the the real benefits gonna come from a safety file and if they've got to spend two or three months by the digitizing information that we've received in paper or reading putting information into a maintenance application then it makes little little in that respect so I was saying yep good did it develop yeah well satisfy the legal the legal and you've got to want to do yes most advances Stevens question from the safety point of view is that there's a legal obligation I need to have a a safety foil and then obviously did be onerous on the build in order to keep it up to date but if you're looking at a paper-based one and they're evidence of going in to do videos large videos on old buildings or new rulings if it's a paper-based safety file and you're producing that 2d in comment tenant video design team it's very hard when you've got 50 or 60 fold or stuck in a back room and or if you're trying to sell the building and it requires so definitely Stephen just the digital safety for what we see there GT Warner allows you to update it with all your your quarterly searches and your annual inspections and all and enderal it's a live document version it's paper-based somebody takes a draw never somebody takes instructor the whole file is compromised because that can disappear into ether and that's what happens David Newcomb the safety foil from you is a safety photo card for new as well as old building school question well the safety policies is required for all buildings and if you've been existing building 10 20 years old you should really be in the possession of a safety file so ya know the bottom line is the building owner needs to have a safety file for his building . yeah I suppose that just on that brothers answer the question from a safety point of view I hope date you might feel comply with those regulations da same an owner of a building must be able to provide information to anybody that's either doing work in the building on the building or around a bit that I can do it safely so if you take anybody that's doing any large demolitions fee there's retrofitting refurbishing a walk under facade cleaning I mean that's the building the building on earth no matter what age to building is should be able to provide information you know those people to do the walk safety in the older buildings you know and hold asbestos and the cleaning it's it's a very critical bit of information so I'm drew helping is retirement on delivery of say 50 files to the building on does the power to complete final suffice yeah fairly relevant question Barbara let your hands a ton thanks I don't believe it actually completely phone services and I believe the first should be delivered at PC or before PC and all too often files that are still you know the scramble trying to still complete the file months and months after it and the longer time goes on the less interest that people are in and providing the information to the files have moved on to other projects and it becomes much more difficult so and most contracts that we would we be involved in a most part involved in it will be contractual requirement and for PC to the Libero file I think from from even from your own point of view well from pstp point of view I think that's and contractually you need that in place before you can occupy the building yeah very good and yes also merit date comin over safety file and can be a book bearer and any project I think convert the planning and I know from my own experience that like planning from the very early stage of the project also plan and the particular time frame in advance a pc and managing the expectation of everyone all too often it used to be the case and the hoped or moving away from don't get to pc and then somebody said hey where's the safety file i I know from our own point of view trying like a month in advance a PC that everybody has fed in the comments and and she said I think the word dare harsh to complete link the word it needs to be used as and in the issues that pcs substantially complete so ultimately should arrive at the safe to file a PC that it's literally the opinions of compliance and Sarnoff's with the relevant design team member somebody home using expanding because they're not the way up for to provide them so we would see that as a small single-digit percentage of what's left if you're hitting the PC and if to do and you have to do a full open heart surgery job at that stage on every element to the build yes we dragged on for months because everybody's heading 20 minutes the next job and the prior to gives off that job last question there are suggesting that just a safety follow the content sheet I suppose it's you look we're going to say what should all be included in it and leave that with you Bob you've recorded robust matrix you know it's it's it's it's nearly like a loan as a piece of string and essentially you need everything and relevant to operating and maintaining the package of the service that you've supplied on the project of what what's on the project now we we would have a fair and extensive database of the information needed package by package and and thus being collated over the the last 5-10 years as we as we work through different projects so we I showed a matrix that we would have breaking the information down into ten parts so typically we'd look for a narrative or a scope of work on the project some things that describe the the package of works and in half a paragraph or page we'd also look on every for every package and we'd look for a list of either materials or equipments used so that we can then ensure that we get data sheets user guides operating the maintenance instructions tech data sheets specs and the like and drawings for the the service of the package but I don't think this is sort of a ready-made list that you can pick out that gives you I need these 10 documents because depending on the package it could be 20 documents or 50 documents needed to describe and document the service that could be installed yeah the work that to finish Sheldon I thought that goes back to the planning at the early stage give me there's a statutory requirement have a certain level of all the statutory information and then if you're you're say a combination is safe to follow no name information and I think that's the last the questions there Bobby and I think for me yeah I think all the questions covered all that pertinent points that we would like to understand that it's a follow on him I can relate the time to Bobby FERC or you're trying in an effort to it with that presentation it's been very useful and very insightful and for why the future be more functional to safety file a name for the building better and you've demonstrated the cost savings in the long term on a project that if if it's done properly in some other ways the cost of implementing from the force so if I'm banished branch of the IRS and the committee member so thank you very much again if anyone has any questions I think laughter it's you know we haven't covered or didn't want to get in touch and I have my contact details up there it's basically Bobby at the FM systems comm so send me an email and I'm more than happy to give any information again thanks I'll share the details afterwards when I send the recording round to everyone as well so that people can recap in their own time and thank you too all in the rest of the island branch as well today for organizing this for thanks nothing enjoy the rest your days and goodbye