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so we have some really cool technology to talk to you about today we're gonna talk a little bit about open roaming um in some ways I consider it the next generation of pass point we're going to talk about this problem that we see in connectivity in general you know it's interesting we've done surveys periodically this last year we did a survey of most of our customers and we asked them what their pain points were and one of the number-one pain points that we consistently hear is just onboarding to Wi-Fi in general how many of you have gone into an airport and you go to get your boarding pass and Wi-Fi is half connected it's kind of connected but you haven't gone through the portal right so you're not really connected and so this phone is just sending everything into this black hole right so what do you do what's what's the behavior when that happens you're trying to get your boarding pass and get on turn off Wi-Fi you turn off Wi-Fi right well that's not the behavior that we want to produce and so we came up with the technology like I said an extension of Passport now you know Cisco invented pass point it's been out there for eight plus years it's on pretty much every smartphone in existence it's showing up on all the tablets and it's even showing up in things like Microsoft Windows and things like that and now what we want to do is we want to take it to the next level so we're gonna talk about open roaming and hopefully we can make this pretty interactive as well I'm willing to take whatever questions that you guys have because I know that there's a lot of questions out there so I just wanted to show what is the typical experience in a day for everybody almost everybody on the planet everyone that's employed anyway if you see that you're you start at home and get out of bed you start at home and your devices are on Wi-Fi you jump in the car or the train or whatever and you go to LTE all right after you do your drive or you do your commute to work you get into the office what do you do you pop into Wi-Fi all right lunch time comes you walk out to lunch you know if you're in the city what happens you go onto LTE all right you walk up to a restaurant maybe it has Wi-Fi maybe it doesn't as LTE typically you know if it's inside of a building maybe doesn't have LTE you go to all these public spaces whether this be a stadium or this be a hotel or wherever you're going and you have this Wi-Fi now one thing really sticks out here is that every time you hit LTE it automatically connects when's the last time you used a portal to connect to LTE when's the last time you went into a connection manager and selected which operator you wanted to connect to right you don't do that in LTE so why in Wi-Fi do our users have to be intelligent about Wi-Fi to connect to it why do you have to know is that if there's a lock on an SSID you probably can't get in unless someone gave you a password right why do you need to know that right and then there's these other SS eyes-free because well because it's free so so that means it shouldn't work very good so that's the thing so we want to make this work very easy now if you're an AT&T or a Sprint or a t-mobile or a Vodafone or an orange or a no - in order to make LTE work anywhere on the planet easily automatically connect they need it somewhere around 800 plus roaming agreements sometimes a thousand right and they have these things called gr X's that connect all these operators together so there's all this technology that's been applied and there's all this business that's been applied in fact every one of those roaming agreements has to be negotiated by a lawyer well this doesn't really work when we start to get into the Wi-Fi space then let me show you why follow cisco vni here on the left-hand side we can see going all the way back to 2016 the growth in the number of hotspots that we've seen over the years we looked at 2017 179 million hotspots around the planet we go into last year we're well over 200 and in fact by 2021 we'll just by the way only a year year and a half away there's going to be over 500 million hotspots on the planet now if you think about that and you want to solve this problem of automatic connectivity automatic secure connectivity wherever you are whenever you're in range of Wi-Fi that's what that's what this technology is about that's what open roaming is about and if you're going to solve that we can't solve it the way the operators did because you can't have lawyers negotiate a matrix of over 500 million Wi-Fi access networks so we have to do an abstraction right and where some of this concept came from is if you think about other technologies that have done an abstraction you know what you know what in a good example of an accept an abstraction is in banking Visa MasterCard right every star take every store takes a Visa or MasterCard because everybody has it in their pocket everybody has it in their pocket because every store takes it and instead of you having a card specific to every bank out there right or every store out there you have this abstraction and make shopping easier it makes the exchange of money easier and then you get these other benefits like credit reports and stuff well maybe that's not a benefit you have a way of making sure that it's secure and it's not being abused so we want to do the same thing with open roaming we want to make this completely open so that anybody can participate and that's what we're looking to achieve same thing if we look at the growth that's happening in traffic a lot of people don't really realize this but do you know that Wi-Fi even in mobile devices carries somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of traffic we partner with with some of the really big device manufacturers you probably have seen some of the press and we we have some of the data and it's actually the high 80s almost 90% of traffic goes through Wi-Fi and these are devices that guess what were created and built to do LTE yet most of the traffic is going through Wi-Fi because there's Wi-Fi breaks down when you look at where people use it most of the traffic is happening when you stop and you work mobile traffic is real you want to use it when you're out on the highway but it represents less than 5% of the overall traffic so what we're saying here is we want to be able to use both these technologies and to use both of these technologies effectively we have to be able to automatically onboard into Wi-Fi and I'm going to talk a little bit about why that's true so and by the way the percentage of traffic or the amount of traffic the kegger for Wi-Fi is actually growing faster than L tewi and by the way I don't I don't mean this as a session to throw stones at LTE we absolutely need it and we absolutely need five GNR we do but we need these technologies to work together in order to accomplish what we need to achieve and that's wireless access wherever we are with the best service we can have so this is what's driving it but we just to give you a little bit of a relative feel does anyone know how many LTE devices there currently are on the planet oh no we can't definitely count on billion now let's just Oh today it's just over a four billion or million or billion billion or billion I'm talking worldwide if you look at Wi-Fi we added four billion devices last year we're adding four billion devices a year so all those devices that do 5g or do LTE also do Wi-Fi but not every Wi-Fi device does LTE right so we want to make sure that we're recovering both of those models and that we can apply it to to all circumstances so one last thing that I wanted to talk about now I'm right now I'm giving you some of the reasons why open roaming why this Auto connectivity is important and then I'm gonna dive into the technology and show you how it works itself and so this is the last slide on the Y but I wanted to show you this this this is a very frankly I know it's busy but is a very simplistic diagram of what's happening out there today on the right hand side you see a very simple representation of a service provider network right and in a service provider network you have the ran you have the radio access network so this would be your cell towers or your your micro cells or your Pico cells etc and the center of your network where all the control is happening and all the billing mediation all the backend systems all the roaming where all that stuff happens all the mobility handoff tower to tower that's happening up in something called an EPC and Evolved Packet core and on the left-hand side something that you're far more familiar with is what's happening in the enterprise industry where you have your wireless access you have your campus switching aggregation and core and you have what's happening in the land around SD win so what's interesting is if you pay attention to what Cisco is doing when it comes to SD a an SD LAN and what we're doing with DNA see is we're segmenting the network so that you can apply policy to different segments well if you look at service provider architecture for 5g they're doing the same thing they call it a slice so if we can take a slice with policy and connect it to a segment with policy we can provide a known good experience on either access technology wherever you are independent of who owns that accident network and I won't get into lutely and loosely and tightly coupled if you want to ask about that later well maybe I'll say just a quick word on it loosely coupled would be when this is an operator like an AT&T or someone like that and this is an IT department like what many of you guys run tightly coupled when it would be when the service provider does a managed service and does this whole thing right but what we want to do is Cisco is make sure that that all works together now why is that important because now that every one of these devices has multiple paths back to the cloud services we want to leverage those multiple paths for the best experience and so what we're doing with all the device manufacturers is something called multipath and if we do multipath you can use that LTE path and that Wi-Fi path simultaneously in fact in that journey I showed you where you were coming in to work when you were in the car you were on LTE and then you go in the building and you go to Wi-Fi a lot of times that's not a clean handoff what if you're on a call what if you go towards the center of the building or you get in an elevator what happens LTE when you get on the elevator right so what we're doing now is if you're connected to both paths simultaneously then what you can do is you can pull the assurance analytics from those paths and as LTE gets weak Wi-Fi get strong and you handoff that session without ever breaking again because they're both connected and when you go out of the building you go from Wi-Fi into LTE you handoff that condition into LTE and so instead of this taking seconds and by the way the typical handoff in a scenario like that is six plus seconds by Moss score do you know how long somebody will say are you there are you there are you there before they hang up six seconds right we've all experienced this haven't we and so we can make this handoff very seamless so we can provide the best connectivity by using both paths higher throughput better delay characteristics or we can we can do is we can choose the Beth but we can't do it if you're not connected to Wi-Fi when you're coming in the building or you're coming into the airport if you have to go to a portal and login it's too late you've dropped the call it needs to automatically connect and this needs to be happening transparently behind the scenes so not only does open roaming provide this environment where you get the best seamless secure onboarding experience but what it does is it enables this whole new change that we're seeing in the industry as we go into Wi-Fi 6 and we go into Phi G and we start to build heterogeneous networks and connect these things together it's critical it was very important with that switch between the networks was that being looked at from a device vendor the Apple Google etc TV era it adversity they looked at from that open API between the telco and that's a great question thing that's very question so the internal oath and I'll tell you why you could actually do this just on the device and then up at the service right and everything in between could just be considered a path but if we want to actually have path analytics then those analytics need to talk to the device to tell the device when to switch that doesn't happen today the device trip decides on its own so that has to be connected the other connection here these open api's between the really the heart of the two systems that's important too because say you're running an IT department and you have an agreement with the service provider that that you're going to allow for example Wi-Fi calling on your network and something goes wrong right so it's authenticating using the sim of the operator but it's going through your access network and something goes wrong well then that operator is going to want to know hey was that on my network in the core or was that on the access network which I don't own so what we're doing in here is not only opening the api's but we're exchanging troubleshooting information so basically assurance analytics this is where assurance analytics comes in again this is why it's so important because as we start connecting these systems together we have to exchange some of this by the way it has no identity involved right this is just network analytics that we change here so that we know if somebody's getting a good service or not right and then we can address it and we can troubleshoot it so the great question and the answer is both for so for the communications between Wi-Fi and cellular would that be like the full communication would be Wi-Fi and then handoff to the senator and the full communication is cellular for the one or would that be like all the uplink is is LTE and all the downlink is Wi-Fi so so that scenario is unlikely because the more likely to scenarios is either it's all Wi-Fi or it's all cellular or it's both chances are you wouldn't do one path down and another path up that runs into other kinds of problems with synchronization etc okay so it the way it's gonna work either use both or not and by the way a lot of people don't know this but multipath is used today and you want to know where multipath is already being used all over the place now it's actually it's true but some really popular ones when you talk to Siri that's using multipath and you know why it's using multipath Siri doesn't take a lot of bandwidth it's using multipath because it drives up reliability and it drives down delay characteristics so if you ask a question over both paths as you're moving around even as you're going in and out of doors and it comes back one path versus the other faster it uses that answer another place is FaceTime FaceTime is using multipath and in that case it's video so it's actually using it for bandwidth too so when the question came up earlier the device manufacturers looking at this the answer is absolutely they absolutely are again we need to have these fundamental building blocks and open roaming is one of them because you don't have a path if it's not automatically on-boarded all right so let's talk about open roaming can I ask a question here and I want to maybe this will kind of help some of my hesitation when I hear open roaming well what I know of open roaming is number one it's a cisco only solution that requires licensing when what I would hope for when I think and hear of open roaming is a multi vendor solution that doesn't transfer more cost to the network operator right because that's what we're really doing here and in when we look at cellular every user pays the cellular companies for all of that back you know all that infrastructure when I consider my job and what I do I'm already operating on a shoestring budget and what I'm looking at is the solution that could be fantastic especially when I consider I work for a government agency and we have multiple universities that where we but right up against each other and there's lawyers it could go well the way we're talking in Jerome exactly a d ultimately that's that's that's what we're talking about here right but the problem is is that increases my cost and so now I'm essentially paying additional cost so that a university students has that better you know better yeah so let me so let me address it so you asked a couple of questions yes so the the first question is should it be open and the answer is yes and remember the example I gave you the credit card and said hey you got this visa abstraction you know what's really hard to do is to bootstrap the credit card when credit cards didn't exist how can you convince a store to take this thing that nobody has and how can you convince people to have something in their pocket that no stores take right so actually did some research on this turns on credit card started with diners club started as a club then they used these books plastic to pay their bills and then an expanded beyond dining the credit card industry was born right but how do you generate mass in the system because the value of the system is in its mass so Cisco agrees and because if because Cisco has over 50 percent of the deployed Wi-Fi footprint out there today you can go into any city drive down the street every other building you pass has Cisco infrastructure in it right so somebody had with momentum has to initiate a technology like this so we can bring it to market because again we have to generate mass so Cisco's taken on that role and what we've done is we've introduced this into some of the standards bodies so we've introduced it over at the WBA the WBA has a work group that's looking at this in Federation in general we have introduced it over at the GSMA where roaming is done today through more traditional mechanisms because we do want to make this ubiquitously available so will it be a Cisco only technology no okay but what I'm going to show you is that there are some services you could put on top of this that will be vendor dependent but the baseline functionality on authentication connectivity and the Federation that'll be something that that anybody can implement in fact the technology that we're leveraging to do this all exists today and that's why it's so key and I'll show you this Flo's good pain that Federation so initially us you know what someone's got to step up so cisco is just going to voluntarily pocket all the expense for this federation that's what we're doing forever probably not forever because because when we look at it we we probably don't have interest in running the federation forever but businesses will spring up that will run those Federation's and offer those services that they can bill for so right now we're running it it's a question so how open is open if you have a competitor that has an identity that wants to be an identity provider let's say there are an infrastructure vendor today and they say you know what I've got this massive identity store I want to become a part of the open roaming Federation is that something that is doable yeah they can do it now now to be clear and I didn't put a roadmap slide in but we're launching this early next year so when we launched the answer is yes okay right now we're still in a POC trial phase and we've got multiple players involved in this we've done this at scale we've done it at Mobile World Congress we did it at Cisco live a few tenets Cisco live you probably experienced open roaming using a cisco credential so we know that this scales in this works so that's that's the answer I'm gonna show you some of the flows and I'm gonna show you the types of services that you could layer on top of this that we do think our fillable and by the way when we say open roaming is free what we mean is that you can join the Federation without cost that doesn't mean that roaming into an access network with this credential won't be a build relationship because we have to facilitate that right now for example when a big operator roams onto Wi-Fi into a big Airport where they have millions of visitors a year that's a very monetizable onboarding connection and there would be a billing arrangement between the two so we support build relationships we support non build relationships and we support those the other one I was thinking of well sure I'll show you the flow and I'll be able to show you that the different ones Oh anonymous is the own I wanted to bring up if you're very concerned about identity you can also do an anonymous authentication based on a credential that you have in your device so that your identity is protected even as you authenticate and we'll support that as well so depending on the type of service that you want to do so we're gonna let the business decide those things we're gonna provide those different capabilities and we'll let the businesses decide that participate in this Federation that answer your question yeah I think i think it answered a lot of it I think it's yeah I think there's no better than question of Licensing and all of that but you know maybe that's a question yeah so give me give me a couple slides and I'll show you some look at your high level on that look firstly if we don't inspect you so open roaming has three components and we kind of mentioned them there's this concept of analysis provider there's the Federation itself that's a cloud-based service and there's their concept of an identity provider now an identity provider can be anybody that has a database of identities right so what we've done is we've worked with companies like Samsung well we've done with Samsung is when you provision your phone you log in to the Samsung service and so you you have a user ID and a password and what that's set up for is if you want to save your configuration you want to restore your configuration you want to migrate to another phone so so you take a Samsung credential it's already on every device it's already on every Samsung device and so what we did at Mobile World Congress last year is that if you had a Samsung device and if you didn't have open roaming or pass point with your operator or another authentication mechanism it would back off and it would use the Samsung credential and it would onboard into the network okay now again the the access network chooses what credentials it will take so you wouldn't have to take a Samsung credential but you can take a Samsung credential you wouldn't have to take a Google credential but you could take a Google credential so the point is is that if all the identity providers are joining this Federation you have access to all those credential databases and you can choose your policy on what you'll accept for onboarding into your guests network device identity providers decide what information that they provide over to the access providers sorry so you can also get my company become an identity provider yes and then do I have control over what information gets passed onto the access provider yes so so another great question because you know I said that you can control which credentials you would allow to be used for onboarding into your guests Network the other is also true and we get we actually get this question a lot because if you provide an identity say say one retail outlet joins and they have all their identities for their loyalty program in it and then a competitive retail outlet joints and has all their credentials in it would would one allow a credential used from another then they don't want that to happen right so not only can you specify which credentials your access network will take the credential providers can Julie limit which access networks they will allow their credential to be used can I go one step further similar to what you could do with edgy Rome and if I'm from my organization drop-off locally if I'm someone else go over to the guest Network yeah yeah effectively I could just from a single SSID mm-hmm that's you know that's really part of the goal too I didn't mention that but for you technical types you know having all these different SS IDs with all these different policy is not a good good way to implement a network I think most of us know that you get up over seven SSIDs especially in 2.4 you can consume most of your bandwidth on that network from an RF standpoint so the idea of being able to go all the way down to a single SSID and then based on policy against the credential you're using route that into the appropriate network is it very powerful and by the way ed Jerome is sort of a good example too because you know you have you have organizations like cable Wi-Fi in the US where they were there's sort of a consortium already between the cable operators you have things like edge or Rome which is already a consortium in a way well you know just like the network was formed by combining existing networks together one way that bootstrap open roaming is to start combining together the consortiums that already exist right and that's another way to generate mass that's why we're talking to some of these entities okay well I should have turned that off sorry guys didn't mean I have all the interruptions so very good experience clean very secure experience no more black holing anybody can play which we didn't have before if you're familiar with pass point was largely driven by operators and you needed an operator back in now you don't you can participate as an enterprise participant and not only that but it opens up these new business relationships because now you can participate you could have a relationship with an operator if you want to because the operator is extending into your access network all right so one more question so the access providers have the ability to determine which identity provider that they'll accept so can i effectively say yes I don't want to I'm not going to allow my competitor that's in the building next door to connect to me yes yes so that that's done through various mechanisms but one way is black listing and white listing so you can do that so both directions you can specify own the access network you can specify what credential will be used if you own the identity you can limit the access network so that you're not onboarding competitive companies those both ways can I is the device owner limit what others see from me typically not typically not I mean what we're doing with the device owners is a little bit different there's a policy component here so that if you're connected to multiple paths we want to influence the decision on what path to take that's why we're working so closely with the device manufacturers but right what happens right now is that if you have a Wi-Fi connection it goes there right if you don't have a Wi-Fi connection it goes to LTE that's pretty much how it happens the one exception is Wi-Fi calling because that terminates in the operator so they can steer it but otherwise that's just all this is very basic so the fact that we're adding a policy component to this based on the experience that you're going to get so that you know that you're going to get a good connection I think enhances is considerably so that policy component will that also determine where you've got a multi tentative building that have all access providers for open roaming so I don't bounce between two different companies and have a terrible experience that policy will is exactly what that is for so what we're doing is we're putting a priority sequence so if you're in a particular retailer the retailer will probably want if you have their credential to have that credential used first if if you're in another location then what they might prefer their venue credential and that's good right because those can often be associated with loyalty programs but if you don't have that credential then you can go into these other things how am i doing on time five minutes Wow all right so let me get into this all right I knew that this would be interesting but let's keep on moving so I want to show you a little bit more how it works and I think I think some of this actually addresses some of the questions that you have so here what we show is the Federation that we're talking about we're showing the access network and we're showing these different identity providers out here and usually from your perspective you know you own this act as access network and then there's these multiple credentials in like was earlier brought up could be your own credential and so these are all members of the identity Federation so now what happens is when you join the Federation basically you we have a we have a tool for doing this but there's an exchange that happens that goes to a certificate authority and generates a certificate for you as an IDP or an identity provider and when you join as an access provider same thing you are given a certificate that's associated with you as an access network provider so now we have these certificates that are on both sides the other component that you see kind of at the bottom of the slide here is the identity provider also registers their triple medication database and it can be both and I'll show with DNS which means that now if you're part of open roaming you can find that authentication you can find where it is down to an IP address so that's how you resolve now we know that DNS scales worldwide because we use it today so we're using a very scalable mechanism in order to do this then what happens is that when somebody goes over into this access network because they already have that certificate they can do an encrypted tunnel for the e-pawn occation back to the service provider or back to that credential so this is advertised and I'll show you the sequence in just a minute this is advertised by eleven you using pass point protocols that exists on all devices today so now now it has the open roaming consortium based on that consortium in a profile in your device it'll use a certificate to then authenticate over to the service provider credential so that's the the very high level um how does this work to show just a little more detail what happens is that the access network advertises through 11 you it's in the beacon this is pre association protocol or you can exchange information the same as pass point the open roaming consortium so what this means is that any device that's pass point compliant can also work with open roaming ok all right that's important because pass points been out there for a long time and all devices do it ok and then you attach the SSID for open roaming and then you start and EEP exchange the EEP exchange is given a a based on the profile on your device and certificate it's given a a realm and then based on that realm it can now through DNS find the authentication entity and finish the authentication back into that device on your access network so just a quick comment on the on the I support the following credential types or even the identity stores whatever its it just seems like if everybody can pick and choose what identity stores the support and all of that it's just going to be a mishmash of their works here it doesn't work there it doesn't work here it works here it just sounds like the potential for a lot of confusion user confusion and non uniformity of one thing to keep in mind is that when this works you just connect here if you're at Cisco live it just worked I think a lot of you are doing open roaming here and it just works it just connects it doesn't eliminate any traditional mechanism so if you still want to log in with a with an SSID and a password you can if you still want to log in using just an open network you can so nothing that exists today is eliminated but is it a fall through process so I'm set up for open roaming but the identity store that I belong to you don't support so I hit your SSID and I get rejected because I'm not in a supported credentials or then it's up to whatever network I'm on to allow for a fall through to pop up a portal at that point you know what I'm saying yeah yeah that's exactly how it works in fact what you can do is pop up a portal to get a credential so that anytime you come into that network in the future open roaming will work but I guess my point is it depends on your acquires everybody to kind of approach it with the same philosophy you'll never be dead ended or if you don't there's just that potential for you there's a grea question why don't we talk a little bit offline but to your point certain verticals are very aggressive for this for example if you go into retail are you going to stadium or you go into hospitality they want to get as high attached as they can so they're more apt to take more of these credentials in other situations where you're carpeted Enterprise it may be more limited sure but again it's going to be company by company I think thanks how does that play out with onboarding devices how can you great question so let's look at I think I'm out of time so I just let me look at that I'll make one real quick comment on this so everything that we talked about is secured so it's a certificate to the identity provider it's a certificate to the access provider we use it based authentication which is secured out at the device which already exists wpa2 and WPA 3 now for doing the actual authentication and this authentication tunnel uses rad sack which is also encrypted so every point of this is encrypted because remember this is likely going over the Internet right so you want to encrypt those authentication sequences all right and then this shows a little bit more on what would happen out of the access network with the WLC and what's called a hotspot connector that would take a radius message and convert it to a rad sec message so that you could secure it over the Internet and then goes into this rad SEC proxy that would hit the triple a of the identity provider and if you wanted to offer this as a service you can we offer it in DNA spaces in the cloud if you want the rad sack done for you we can and in fact we could even translate a triple a radius message into OAuth or a sam'l message and the reason this is important you know take the situation where we were just talking about with Samsung Samsung doesn't actually have a Triple A for authenticating all those users their use of people going in and authenticating into a web account right so to access that database we had to convert the authentication into something that database would understand and so these are some of those services that you can offer on top so that your database doesn't have to be changed but you can still join right so the whole idea here is to make this as as simple as possible all right so the question on onboarding and we pop over to that two minutes all right so so you guys had a lot of good questions I should have taken this down to five slides yeah you did say you wanted to be interactive yeah it was definitely interactive but this is good because I mean look as this takes off as we're certain to see pass point takeoff as this takes often broadens between SP and Enterprise this is going to change the world of how we connect to Wi-Fi this will change it so this is quite significant this is an industry changing event right so device provisioning options so you can do this as a carrier bundle or carrier over-the-air so this is your question right so when a carrier gives you a phone it often has a profile bundle in it with an identity already and you can use that identity in fact you could also use a semi denta t if you have an existing phone and then they joined they can push that identity over-the-air so this can all happen automatically in the background and you'll get a little profile pop up that says are you willing to take this profile right and that's a security measure the other way that you can do it is app provisioned so if you have an application for your particular network or your service or your guests network if when you go into that app the first time somebody logs in then what you do is you push a certificate down into the device a profile then you only have to do it once because once the certificate is there then it works it works forever from that point on and that's now if you find out that that person is a hacker you can invalidate the certificate so very easy right easy to onboard easy to knock them off and then the last is a web service so you can actually just go to a web page and you can log in in a web page your regular portal like you use today right in the process of doing that the web page can push a certificate in to the device and then anytime that you connect after that you'll have that certificate and any other network that'll take your credential will also now have the certificate so that they can onboard so there's a lot of different mechanisms for getting those certificates and profiles out at the device so with that I think I'm gonna do we have time for any more questions we go nope okay so what we'll do then is I think this is the last one I'll be around if you have additional questions feel free to ask and maybe what we'll do is another deep dive at some point but hey I appreciate all the great questions really and again excited about this next generation technology so thank you everybody