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hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm frances foster i'm constantine kitchen and this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people our brilliant guest today is a comedian and the author of jews don't count david badil welcome to trigonometry hello everybody hello guys hello constantine hello francis nice to see you um can i just say i've got a new camera um yeah i normally do podcasts over there on that sofa just with a laptop but i bought a new logitech camera so there's quite a lot of depth of field going on and also i'm worried already and it's like an erotic jewish way that it shows bits of my study the people thinking what the [ __ ] is that like what is that big trophy over there why is he put that there is that to say that he won the fa cup once it's not it's a trophy that i got for winning richard osmond's house of games and i don't i didn't know where else to put it and also these things people are going to be thinking what are they does he have some sort of disability they're not that's something i bought because i do that quite a lot i've actually got a podcast i do with faye ripley about just buying [ __ ] on the internet and talking about it and what that is is a chair gym right and you're meant to be able to do this with these stuff hang on wait a minute this is this is the best opening in the history of trigonometry mate i've got to say yeah so you can both be lazy and get ripped at the same time that's the idea all my life i've looked for gadgets that could do that for me and none of them have ever actually worked as you could tell but yeah i am the laziest uh worker outer in the world and i'm always trying to take shortcuts there apart from that i think it looks all right so you know yeah no it looks great and it's good to have you man uh thanks for coming on the show we really appreciate it i i should say for anyone who's not familiar we'll maybe get you to talk a little bit about your your career and life story as well uh the the title of the book jews don't count it's not like a policy prescription uh just in case anyone from america has tuned in and go finally someone's saying it you know like that that's not what it is there was some troll who when it first came out he wasn't really talking to me he was talking to i think daniel finkelstein who people will possibly know a little bit in britain but won't know he's actually a lord he's a tory peer and jewish and he was talking about the book and some bloke claiming to be jewish had kept on saying that's hate speech uh i'm going to go to the police to get this book shut down you know who would read this book on the tube i mean that is a good look just sitting on the tube reading a book saying jews don't count yeah i mean if you do take it literally as opposed to what it clearly is which is reported speech summing up an attitude that i feel is prevalent but just as a manifesto i can see his point but he is the only person who seems to have taken it that way yeah so it's not us it's not a prescription uh from a very disaffected jew uh as to how we should proceed re-use no it's summing up the attitude that i'm critiquing well we'll talk about that in a sec but as i mentioned before we started we have a very large international audience a lot of people in in the uk for people abroad david is a is a very well-known comedian who's created lots of stuff that people uh really love and us included uh but tell everybody a little bit about your life story david just you know how are you where you are what has been your journey through life well yeah i'm a comedian i've done lots of stuff i'm quite old 56 and uh i you know started out as a stand-up comedian and then after doing that for a few years i got on telly in britain with a show called the merry white house experience which was a stand-up and sketch show and that blew up quite in quite a big way and me and a guy called rob newman became the first ever british comedians to play wembley arena which was great amazing uh and then me and him split up quite badly and i then started another show with another comedian in britain called frank skinner which is about football it's called fantasy football league and that did well as well and uh i'm probably best i hate best known for like one of the things as you grow older is the notion that the phrase best known for is what's going to be on the news when you die and uh i love this thing that i did but i do know it will be on the news when i die and that is me and frank and a bank of the lightning seeds uh wrote a song called three lions which was adopted as the kind of english football anthem in the 90s and probably still is the best known football pop song of all time and it was sung by you know crowds at wembley and all the rest of it and still is uh and then sort of lately i've done many many things uh i've sort of returned to doing live stand up a lot recently although the shows are more complex and more theatrical than they used to be uh i did a big show about my family called my family not the sitcom which uh i toured worldwide actually for about two years uh and it was you know i still think it was really [ __ ] funny show but it was moving and complex about my mother and father or whatever and i also take too long i write lots of books i've written four adult novels seven children novels and this book that you mentioned jews don't count is my first foray i guess into non-fiction it's a polemics quite short i'm going to get it actually hang on it's here somewhere what have you got it there's one this is just for the audience at home this is how trigonometry shows always work the guest just randomly stands up and walks away halfway through that's it and it's quite short and it's a polemic it's in the tradition of uh because published by the times digital supplement uh of sort of without wishing to compare it in quality to that but things that like george orwell wrote about i don't know what did he write like on on the working classes whatever orwell wrote it's that sort of short pamphleteering book uh and that's what i've written recently and yet about the failure of identity politics specifically when it comes to jews and david uh i read it i very much enjoyed it why did you think it was so important and so necessary in 2020 21 to write this book um well you know you know the question why now you get it a lot from if you take anything anywhere like you ever go to pitch something to a tv commissioner they often say why now and i always want to say i don't know it's just a good idea right it was a good idea 10 years ago it's still a good idea now and with this book although i think it is very relevant now and people seem to feel it's very timely and in a way i guess what happened to the labour party during the corbyn years i don't know if i could have written it or put it out quite so uh thoughtfully i guess because it was so you know volatile all that and it feels to me that maybe that that now you can talk about it a bit more sensibly although you know it's still very volatile all that but to be honest with you the book itself has been brewing for a long time you know i've been writing sporadically in different places about what i feel is this particular issue which is as i say the sort of like neglect of jews uh within the hierarchy of racisms that people who are anti-racist care about i've been writing about it since about 2002. in fact i wrote a piece in 2011 for the daily telegraph which was nothing to do well before corbyn and all that which was called how anti-semitism entered the zeitgeist and was sparked off by i think when galiano uh the russia not russian i think that's you i'm thinking of constitution the um galliano the what is he french designer was found to have done gone on a big nazi rant author well thank you for that comparison i i appreciate it yeah i mean it's quite offensive to galliano he'd never be he'd never be dressed like that's because you're wearing a jacket as well what a nice wife yeah jacket nazis same thing really yeah exactly exactly uh so anyway i wrote about that then and i've written about sporadically but to answer your question francis during the corbyn years there were a lot of friends of mine left-wing friends of mine who basically said and this is boiling down what they said it's decomplexifying it this can't be right all this anti-semitism stuff because we're we're left-wing we're anti-racists and that's our whole thing so it just can't be the case we don't we can't put it together cognitively that this is a thing and it seems to be a thing and it seems to be really like eating away our project but we don't get it i mean and so i ended up having conversations sort of one by one with these people saying well maybe it's about this about that and it's complex it's not an easy straightforward thing people think of anti-semitism very much as coming from the far right as a kind of full-on direct thing from people who own it who say we hate jews and we're very proud of that and that's part of what we like about being this person who waves a neo-nazi flag or whatever that obviously is not how it comes from progressives or the left or whatever so it's more difficult to pass p-a-r-s-e it's more difficult to deconstruct and so that's what i wanted to do all those conversations and all those times i've talked about it elsewhere i wanted to sort of put it in one package and get it out there and see what happened and do you think david that the the problem is and you do actually explore it in your book is that people associate jews with being white therefore they have privilege therefore you can't be racist against them is one of the arguments i imagine well it's one of the arguments although i think it's more complicated than that and i begin i talk about the concept of white privilege and about a more slightly more complicated thing to that which which i call schrodinger's why it's not my not i didn't invent that uh phrase but it's a very good one i don't know who invented it i just noticed it being said occasionally on the internet schrodinger's whites is a concept whereby jews are considered white or non-white depending on the politics of the observer so far-right people have i mean for years not just recently recently and obviously going back a long time considered used to be non-white i mean absolutely set in stone uh as part of like say white supremacy in america is that jews are not part of the white races and would not be you know allowed in an ethno state as far as white supremacists are concerned uh and uh that is completely kind of forgotten when progressives as they tend to talk about uh jews and particularly when they kind of dismiss anti-semitism because yeah it seems as if it's just another branch of people saying you know oh you can't be racist against white people is is like but you and you seem to be those white people and therefore the racism is downgraded that in itself is i think a lot to do with the fact that jews are and i've talked about this in the book i've talked about this a lot the only ethnic minority who would suffer this kind of weird double status racism whereby jews get all the usual stuff they get all the low state of stuff you're vermin you're thieving your liars your scum all that stuff but they also get a high status racism which is you're in control of the world you're privileged you're powerful you are secretly controlling all governments etc etc all the conspiracy theories so many of them come back to this notion of the powerful jew and then you get this weird thing whereby that isn't quite recognized as an assault as if it's sort of almost complementary in some way and that's i think what is also bought by some people on the left when they don't put jews into the category of people who need to protect it from racism because they think well they're powerful and so they don't need it and you saw that example with jeremy corbyn and the mural you might want to explain to our viewers and listeners what actually happened with the mural what it was and then go into it a little bit more yeah right uh so this happened after jeremy corbyn came to power but the thing that he did was while he was still just an mp and not uh head of the labour party and he was 2012 i don't know what you said came to power i thought i was i was having some kind of horrible flashback as if that actually happened he never came to bat you may became leader of the opposition still terrifying for jews uh no i um i meant came to power in the labour party yeah and but i think in 2012 or i can't remember what it was actually in the book uh but there was a mural in east london somewhere uh done by an artist called mere one and mere one is a very good example the kind of progressive i'm talking about because he's a street artist and he'd done a mural of rich people playing monopoly sort of floridaly on the backs of the suffering mainly brown world poor and he that was then complained about by various local jewish people because they all looked incredibly jewish they all had sort of hooked noses and long beards and two of them actually were jewish too then we turned out were supposed to be rothschild and warburg who are these two jewish sort of financiers who are often brought up to keep rothschild by people who want to say jews control the world rothschild is really just a substitute for jewish control of the world and so it got taken down the mural uh and mere one was very cross about that and he put out a statement on his facebook page saying just to confirm what i said earlier that some white jewish folk it's very interesting that he chose to say white some white jewish i think he said white rich jewish folk but not actually sure about that uh were upset by depictions of their beloved hashtag rothschild hashtag warburg hashtag's very important there because he puts it on his facebook page you click on hashtag rothschild you go straight to conspiracy theories about jews controlling the world so he's done that deliberately as well and jerry corbyn underneath his post supported it and said it was really you know that it reminded him of something that happened to diego rivera and mentioned lenin or whatever anyway he basically said you know there are lots of examples of revolutionary art being taken down by the powers that be and this is another example of it that was essentially jeremy corbyn's position on it uh and later on when corbin was headed a long part this was brought up as an example of his blind spot and that's a very complicated word a blind spot in the book about anti-semitism and my point is that if you are a very availed anti-capitalist like he is you can look at an image like that and presumably just want to celebrate it as an anti-capitalist but unfortunately the imagery of anti-capitalism is deeply entwined with the industry of anti-semitism and there's really complicated reasons for that some of them are straightforward to do with what i think shaw called the socialism of fools where you know just the way that uh some people on the left depict richness and capitalism and exploitation just seems to involve always coming back to this image of a swarthy fat hook-nosed bearded man counting his money and then but in the book i suggest it might have even deeper unconscious reasons to do with christian imagery and you know unable to separate kind of gargoyles and evil from the image from the face of the jew but my point is to a jew and also i think to a sort of ordinary educated person that image of that mural looked a lot like the cover of desterma which is the nazi newspaper that was published weekly by julius streicher and always had a cartoon of essentially jews celebrating their control of the world uh but he corbyn kind of couldn't see that and i think that and neither could mere one by the way which i think is as as important in its own way that someone so self-avowedly i'm off the left i'm of you know a person who fights injustice blah blah blah couldn't see it and in fact was angry at it being taken down so francis actually came up with but it's going to sound better coming from me because unlike him i'm jewish and he doesn't have a racist voice exactly for both of those reasons but do you think that um the all gations of anti-semitism against jeremy corbyn and the labour party under him uh were exaggerated and weaponized by his enemies um well i talk about that in the book uh i talk about how um the book is you know short but i try for me the truth is always complex and actually one of the things about you know podcasts like yours i think that's good that you know i said this before we started that i wrote a piece about the culture wars in um the sunday times and i talked about being asked by and you know do excuse me for saying this but uh you were one of the ones in my mind uh being asked by alt-right podcast to go on uh and let's just make sure we put that in inverted comments some people who don't get the joke right um but the but reason that uh that i would be you know even though maybe you know do you would you say that that would have any truth at all is that just unfair no no absolutely not so how would you describe yourself in terms of your relationship to progressive thinking we uh i would say that we oppose uh we're anti-work we oppose wokeness for the same reason we oppose the far right and they hate us equally too yeah so we actually get a lot of anti-semitism including him he's not even jewish he just looks at because the far right hates us as much as the far left because and we'll get into this because i do have something i want to to argue with you about which is the merits of identity politics at all yeah let's go let's park that because that's yeah i know yes i've had that conversation a few times and yeah we should talk about that but my point was the truth is always complex right and i think you know that's something that that you're demonstrating in your answer there right uh that actually this idea of easy tribalism is bollocks uh and one way in which i try to make that clear is that i think that anti-semitism was of course weaponized by the tory party during the time of corbyn and i used the example of matt hancock uh getting into trouble at some thing where he was talking about the nhs and flailing really badly because he you know it was clear the nhs were not being supported properly and he just mentions corbyn anti-semitism as a result to try and get out of it and then what happens is the crowd start booing and stamping their feet and taking the microphone away from him and just laughing at him and i pointed out that when i was troubled by this on twitter which obviously a lot of my book is about social media i just got immediately shouted down by progressives can't you see he's weaponizing it can't you see he's playing card and i wanted to say yeah this is a cognitive dissonance thing he is doing that i am still as a jew disturbed by this mob's reaction to the word anti-semitism it is impossible not to be as a jew to hear someone say what about anti-semitism however you know [ __ ] is that he's done that to hear them stamp their feats and boo and dismiss it violently as a thing that would ever be of any concern do you have a website or do you plan to have a website well if you do then easy dns are the company for you easy dns is the perfect domain name registrar provider and web host for you they have a track record of standing up for their clients whether it be council culture d platform attacks or overzealous government agencies he knows a bit about that so will you in a second easy dns of rock-solid network infrastructure and incredible customer support they're in your corner no matter what the world throws at you unless it's your ex-girlfriend in which case you're on your own you'd know about that move your domains and websites over to easy dns right now all you've got to do is head over to easydns.com forward slash triggered and use our promo code which is of course triggered as well and you will get 50 off of the initial purchase sign up for their newsletter access of easy that tells you everything you need to know about technology privacy and censorship well since we've got into the into that identity politics conversation we might as well get on with it this was uh so i found your book very good and i think you the way i felt was you identify the dots but then refuse to connect them in my view and i'll tell you what i mean by that right so for me it's it's the inevitable consequence of identity politics the jews will be perceived as evil oppressors just like east asians will be the chinese japanese koreans basically any culture that teaches its children to to value education to work hard at school and as a result of that succeeds will always be seen as the oppressor because as far as i'm concerned identity politics is about splitting people into groups and then going these are good groups these are bad groups and the bad groups are the ones that do well the good groups are the ones that are struggling right um do you what what would be your view on that that sort of position well okay so the book is not a road map uh i've had this a few times a few times where people say to me um you know are you suggesting that the intensification of identity politics that are so swirled around other minorities should be applied in every way to jews and is that a good thing for jews to be on the same kind of hair trigger sort of radar for offense and whatever and my answer to that is that is not the book is not that the book is not a like a piece of social planning right uh it is an analysis of the way things are and i'm very kind of like assiduous in the book and way not to make any kind of like easy value judgments about those things my position is this is how it is i mean your point exists because you know you you are critiquing identity politics because you feel it as a very happening thing right all those things you've just talked about now i think the book is more valuable because there's been lots of sort of like uh attempts to take apart identity politics that are somewhat really good and some less less good or whatever but i don't think you get to in a way the people i'm trying to speak to if your position is identity policies politics is [ __ ] right and these are doing in a way i think all i take a neutral position on the book which is this is what it is right we live at a time where the language of privilege and uh the intensification of uh microaggressions against uh identity are taken very seriously by you know these people who feel themselves the guardian of that stuff and yet they miss out jews or they have a different attitude to jews they're ambiguous around you so for example which might make it clearer i talk in the book how it's very much as uh you know a commandment if you like an article of faith for uh let's call them woke people uh that uh you know the the um people who are discriminated against can define the racism uh so you know a white person should not be telling a black person that isn't racist right and i would agree with that to be honest with you uh but my main point is whether or not i agree with it it exists that's definitely something piers morgan gets shouted at but online if he tries to tell meghan markle that something isn't racist uh right or whatever that does not apply to jews right they're they're ready david the reason i ask you the question is you repeatedly describe yourself as a progressive in the book and i think you've already said so yourself so i guess what i'm asking is how do you square that circle of on the one hand uh you know wanting to talk about this issue on the other hand supporting a world view which i would say will continue to contribute to discrimination against jews well because i think that i'm a progressive but also the book is a critique of progressives right so i mean actually i met with someone yesterday who said to me that he read the book i don't particularly see it exactly like this because i don't think in a way it goes even into this area but he said that the book at some level takes apart the whole idea of identity politics because without saying it because if it doesn't work for jews and as you say may not work for others then it start then obviously the whole thing starts to fray right but meanwhile he read it like that at the other end i got a review in the times by stephen bush uh who is a left-wing guy and i think he's politically headed for a new statesman in which he said to me i mean a bit more like you're saying i guess he said to me oh he's left-wing but he doesn't believe in the language of privilege right he's a mixed race jewish and black guy doesn't believe in the language of privilege doesn't believe in the whole concept of white supremacy and structural oppression and all that kind of stuff i might be simplifying but that's the impression i got um and he and he said oh you you know he essentially accused me of adhering to those ideas in the book i said no i'm modeling them i'm saying this is how they are and now i'm critiquing them i'm really not applying any kind of value judgment to them either way now i'm happy to some extent because the book is supposed to just be attaching to a conversation to say for people to take it either way to be honest you because it's a short book and it's tactically an intellectually i think more useful to say this is how it is this is how identity politics is it misses out jews here's the complex reasons why it does that and then i've noticed and this is just empirical the progressives who read it just say oh [ __ ] yeah right now i'm not sure they'd do that if it was like and identity politics is you know [ __ ] up in all these other ways and also to be honest with you my own thinking about that is complicated you know i think and i yeah so what is your own thinking about that tell us that's what i really want to get to is what is your own thinking about that yeah but that's okay but that's weird that you want to know that constitution i think you want to know that because i think you do want to weaponize the book as part of the culture wars and i don't want to weaponize it for anything i'm just curious how you think about it because foreign but that's my point it is complicated and that's what i'm i'm trying to work it out in my head still that's what i want okay so i think okay so so look so so at one point i'm having this conversation with stephen bush because i say he's a mixer a jewish person of color right and at one point he says something light because i say in the book he appears to completely reject the language of privilege even though he's of the left and whatever and i say at one point something like uh in the book i talk about jews not being white right um not being quite white in the way that i've described um and there's other reasons why i talk about that as well including personal kind of lived experience ones like being beaten up myself once one of my first stand-up jokes was i've been beating up twice in my life once being jewish one to being a pakistani and those that that stuff that just happened to me right i had something very similar in my routines as well talking about how on the same day i was discriminated against for being a pakistani and then later i got an email from a gig for a comedy show saying oh we've got too many white men on the bill right it was about me well that's a perfect bit of schrodinger's whites i have to say yeah exactly but but but in that same bit i say that i agree that being white brings you privileges in society that the white person may not be aware of right and i do agree with that you may not but i do agree that it definitely gives you certain head starts in life and certain other ones it may not give you when you refer to you know that you have to complexify with well what type of white person you know boris johnson as a white person has had enormous privileges that a you know northern irish working-class bloke you know has not had right so that's what i mean by complexity i adhere to some of it but i think you always have to complexify it well i agree with that that's so there's no element of this show that's about weaponizing anything david i just wanted to make make everybody understand that i'm just curious about how you think that's all yeah well that's i don't know how else to put it really then i think that well okay so here's another example slightly adjacent to what you're saying but i think it might help so i get asked a lot and i have talked in my shows about what is okay and not okay to make jokes about right and obviously that's something that you've talked about as well right and i say you can joke about anything it depends not the subject matter but the joke right so actually in my last show about trolls i tell a number of holocaust jokes one particularly one particular one and say this these jokes are not offensive right they're not and not just because i'm jewish and have relatives who were killed in the holocaust look at who's actually been targeted here these are not jokes these are not pro-nazi jokes nor are they laughing at the victims they are jokes complicated jokes that might make people feel less alone or they might i mean i'll tell you the joke that i use right which is an old well i don't know how old it is but it was not it's like a traditional joke someone told it to me right and uh it's about a holocaust survivor who after the war uh dies of natural causes sometime after the war goes to heaven when he gets there god asks the survivor to tell him a holocaust joke so the survivor does he tells god a holocaust joke and god says that's not funny and the survivor says well i guess you had to be there i love that joke i love that joke because you know it's funny but it also says something very profound about the absence of god in the years 1939-45 right that's a holocaust joke you can tell it so my point is you have to examine it on a joke by joke basis you can't just say you can't tell jokes about wherever and i would say the same thing really about identity politics i would say it works sometimes and it doesn't work at other times and you need to look at the specifics that's a good point and david wouldn't you say that identity politics just increases divisions within people and it's in many ways just a form of divide and conquer it just get you know we always say that francis not always no sometimes i think that is the case and sometimes it's not it depends again on the community you're talking about uh sometimes on the individual you're talking about you know um i think it definitely can become that and there are times when i read [ __ ] that's happening and i think yeah that's totally happening and other times i think like you know i mean to use an example right i'm reading um satnam sengara's very brilliant i think empire land right which is about the british empire and there's like a thousand things in that book i didn't know about as a british person which is primarily what i feel myself to be by the way and all the [ __ ] that's in my past i feel myself to be a british person quite proud at many levels of being a british person uh and yet i read i read this book stuff about the amritsar massacre that i don't know anything about right and then i do think and this is an identity politics way of thinking okay these voices have been silenced so you know until now in the discussion of what it means to be british and in british history it's a good thing that that's complexifying and i really don't agree with those people who get furious about it and feel that you know he's just complaining and you know what blah blah blah i mean he himself said uh of a ipso mori poll that came out quite recently which asked the question are you proud of being uh of the british empire or are you ashamed of the british empire all right that's a stupid question because history is not a football team you know you don't just support it or feel bad if you lose you basically you know try and absorb new ideas into it as time goes on right yeah yeah and moving moving on now david one thing that i found particularly interesting in the book was and particularly because i'm a football fan and it's a word that has been used many many times throughout football is used by tottenham hotspur is the is the word yid and you were saying that it's a racist word and lots of people have been discussing it since time memorial why is it to you that this word is a racist wor well the primary thing about that again everything i say in that book needs to be seen in context so we you know over the 40 years that i've been going to football you know it started as an incredibly racist environment and lots of work was done by football and by uh organizations like kick raced about football whatever to change that uh so that by the time you get to 2010 which is the story i tell about that in the book it's already in the program it says that any racist abuse uh will need to be a banning for life so that's the context in which i'm talking about the y word right uh it's not just you know is this a racist word or it isn't although we can argue about that separately it's we live in a time of very high awareness of offense of those words right so my question is not really is that word racist it's why is it not considered racist given how [ __ ] offended we are by all these other words right so that's so then what happened was in that particular case is me and my brother are at chelsea and we weren't even playing spurs for anyone who doesn't know because this is a global podcast right tottenham hotspur they are a football club uh they i uh you not everyone for tom hartsford but some of them uh own the word yidd because tottenham is a jewish area and they feel that you know they've claimed that as an identity and blah blah blah and their own position on it is that that's somehow you know a nice use of the word right uh and my whole point about that is has happened in this case is well there's a number of things involved firstly most tottenham fans aren't jewish right it's a myth that tottenham fans are jewish uh there's like if if five percent of what used to be why art lane uh you know is jewish that would be massively more there's only like naught point three percent of the country are jewish so if five percent of them were jewish that would be loads of jews that means 95 percent of them chanting the word ye the yid army are not jewish right so that would be the first ever reclamation of a hate word by people who are not part of that minority and as i've said before the equivalent is you know if there had been a club in a black area say brixton or whatever that had you know decided mainly white fans decided we're going to adopt the n-word as our identity and enchanted n-word army that club would have been shut down like 20 years ago i mean i have to say the comedian in me would like to see that yeah you wouldn't see it i mean you could just rename it milwaukee yes yeah so um so basically what the story i tell in the i mean you know this totally like happened a lot chelsea and it was always really depressing when yodo started because tottenham some tottenham fans i think it has shifted a bit but anyway some tottenham fans celebrate that as their identity right and say it's a really positive thing but what they're not listening to is the fact that arsenal fans and chelsea fans and millwall fans of west ham fans it comes back that identity with menaces with like auschwitz chance spurs are on their way to auschwitz and hissing to represent gas chambers and in this one particular case as i say we weren't even playing spurs i think spurs were losing to hell are you a spurs fan by the way who uh either of you i i support west ham he supports everton okay fine so we i think it was they were losing to hull and it came up on the scoreboard it was a boring game we were playing villa and the crowd just started chanting you know you know over and over again this incredibly aggressive non-celebratory way and then a bloke behind us just starts shouting [ __ ] the [ __ ] yids [ __ ] the [ __ ] is over and over again and then blasting through this notion that by yids he just means tottenham fans that's fine he doesn't mean anything else he just changed it to [ __ ] the [ __ ] jews over and over again and in terms of the context that i'm talking about after about 10 minutes of this my not very old brother either stands up and says shut up mate right and he says no [ __ ] off and there's about to be an enormous fight and then he just does stop iva sits down and says i think i'm going to cry which i wish it was very sort of funny but also kind of moving but the point is no one says anything no steward intervenes there are no that bloke is not banned for life and me and my brother have to try and create a film which we call the y word a short film to raise awareness so this is happening which is hard to get made keep racing about football at first and not interested don't want to do it they've got more important things to talk about is it really a problem that's what i'm talking about in the book and actually to come back to your point about identity politics right that is really a violent form actually of anti-semitism right it's properly violent when you hear a crowd and lots of people join in or whatever and whatever your thoughts about identity politics it's a real [ __ ] hole in it if that is just ignored and invisible and whatever and so you sort of have to whatever your uncertainties about identity politics grasp the nettle of identity politics and say okay if we are living at a time where aggressions against minority are a problem then can we apply it to this ethnicity as well please i just think you have to do you have a business do you want to make the most of your business do you want to advertise online but don't know where to do it well how about you advertise with trigonometry we have over 200 000 subscribers across the different platforms we sometimes get up to three million views a month for our videos and it's a great opportunity to showcase your product so if you want your product or business to stand out amidst all the nonsense that is happening drop us a line at marketing trigger pod dot co dot uk that's marketing trigger pod dot co and we will do our very best to help your product stand out and when we say stand out what we really mean is get cancelled no i totally agree with you that there's a lot of inconsistency and double standard in that philosophical way of thinking about the world i i totally get that my concern about identity politics and i actually really like the point that you made about how it's not a universal thing there's different elements of it and sometimes it might be appropriate for example the the civil rights movement in america in the 60s was an example of identity politics right but the way it was conducted it was made inclusive so it wasn't about antagonizing groups against each other so you're right you're right there's a new ones to this and what i would say is my concern about identity politics comes much more from the way it's done as opposed to the concept in general i think there's nothing wrong with people who are members of a particular group of having an identity that encompasses parts of that as well my worry is that we now live in a world where groups are being pitted against each other that's what i think we oppose on the show um so i'm really glad you know i don't agree with that and i and you know obviously you know every day you see like shades of it you see like you know where as you said certain girl like the other day in the lancet whatever they find out why the lancer wants to get involved in this [ __ ] it's a medical journal but the other thing in the lancet there was a suggestion to asian americans that they should sort of not take pride in being successful within the medical community or whatever because that allows racists to say oh look here's a minority that's doing well and that can be weaponized against other minorities right and you kind of think like this is written by a white person not an asian american who are you to tell asian americans that they can't take pride in their own achievements do you know what i mean and that's just stuff where you think it's it's yeah it's mental do you not think as well and this is coming from my own perspective of it and people who were watching this on the show would know of this i'm actually technically could argue mixed race my mother's latin american grandfather was an arab so on so forth from venezuela my problem with identity politics is this it's incredibly reductive i believe it's what it does is it boils people down to in fact what are the most unimportant parts of them what i think is most important who you are how you see the world the way you conduct yourself and by just saying you are part of this group it's incredibly shallow way of thinking because yes but it's far more complicated than that there has i think it is it is when all it is really is a way into shouting right yeah if it's just a way into shouting about like you know i'm more oppressed than you and you know i hate you because you're more privileged or whatever then then it's no use at all all right but i think you know firstly i don't agree you know with it being useless i think there are forms of structural oppression yeah that affect people of color and that also affect other people you know that there are gender issues and all sorts of things they do exist right yeah inbuilt prejudice it does exist but in a different way as you speak i i have to say i don't agree because i i don't agree that identifying yourself in a certain way necessarily is reductive when i put you as my bio on my twitter feed that's enormously complex because i'm not religious yeah that's something we haven't even discussed but i'm an atheist uh you know and i'm always having to explain two [ __ ] on the internet that anti-semitism is not religious intolerance it's racism because the gestapo would shoot me tomorrow right and i and i'm an atheist i don't believe in god at all right yeah but i do have a very complicated and quite difficult to describe certainly to non-jews identity that i feel very strongly of myself as a jew but it's not simplistic it's not reductive but so i would push so i would just and all we're doing is talking about our experiences as well i'll be honest with you but i'm really loving this conversation so people would say to me oh you're white you've never faced racism my mother wanted to call me francisco jaime foster police my i grew up in a lower middle class working class part of south london my father was worried about raising my chains i used to work at a garage when i graduated from university doing admin as a way to er money and uh there was a very racist uh racist uh there was a lot of people in there with very unpleasant racist views to the point where i actually when mom gave me a lift sometimes in the morning she had to park around the corner because i didn't see the want them to see the fact that my mum was brown i know what it's like to have members of my family been racist racially abused me and my cousin got chased when we went to watch a football match and i find when people go oh you're white therefore you're this if you've never experienced this i'm like no that's the completely reductive way of thinking and it's it doesn't allow for the complexities of human emotion or in fact race i would agree with that because that but that comes back to what i was saying earlier which is you know just as you have to examine jokes on a case-by-case basis you have to examine people on a case-by-case basis you know and there are people you know and i've used boris johnson's a [ __ ] easy example of it but i would say he still is an example of it who you know have lived their life with all sorts of privilege primarily class privilege primarily money privilege but him being white is part of that it's in the mix as well uh because he just wouldn't have been you know in his generation you know he wouldn't have found it very easy to get into eaton and all that is that true though what about rishi sunak well he's younger uh i don't i i don't if it's true it seems like you know this is a new thing you're talking about which is partly to do with identity politics you know the fact is rishi shunak is brown and he's privileged right but when i was growing up you're younger than me both of you but there was no [ __ ] chance of a brown person big chance of this checker when i was growing up uh at all which is a different argument by the way to the fact that i put something out in the book which is that i personally think that you know it's an interesting thing that jews have never thought of as bain you know it's a much derided acronym but jews theoretically are bane uh because of minority ethnic uh which is what that means and i very much do think the jews are an ethnic minority so meanwhile i noticed that whenever bame is celebrated like for example sajid javid being the first uh brown chancellor i say no that's nigel lawson right i felt first brown chancellor but the first bain chancellor was nigel lawson in my opinion right but no one ever would grasp that as a thing it's a so it's partly you know the whole jewish thing is partly about that as well it's about representation and celebration not happening it's partly about that too but i totally agree what you just said francis which i'd say was really moving right yeah right is exactly what i just said about complexity the truth is always complex so yeah you can pass as you know people always saying jews can although i don't think i can really i don't think constantine can but people are always saying jews can pass as white or whatever you can pass as white right so that doesn't mean that your history is like easy you know and actually the example i use a bit in the book i hate i sort of hate the hierarchy of racism but i'm gonna use it a bit like if you wanted to sort of actually place jews and whatever uh sort of people who are not immediately apparently someone who might fit into identity politics it's worth thinking about gay men or i suppose gays in general but gay men are more more apparent in a way for the argument which is they have white privilege right uh they are generally economically fairly secure right but who's gonna say which progressive is gonna say so you're probably all right as long as you don't tell anyone as long as you stay in the closet you're probably all right are you so [ __ ] shut up about homophobia no one's going to say that are they but that is sort of said to jews you know it's sort of an anti-semitic science society people sort of say well you know no one really knows jewish so just keep quiet about it and then you're right yeah yeah david it's it's all interesting i'm really enjoying this conversation as well because i think uh all of us might have come into this conversation with slight misperceptions about each other and we're sort of flattening them out as we go which i really like i think it's great and um about that by the way i i don't any misconceptions i had about you which i probably but i sort of didn't really you've seen what i mean i was sort of taking the piss earlier when i said about yeah like podcast that's all right actually i'm good man i've seen you do stand up and i wouldn't be doing this podcast if i just thought you were you know just a bald or right i know that you're you've still he's going to be seething about that for days thank you david i really appreciate this is why i never actually like jews no okay that was the wrong one was an ill chosen word right and it wasn't in my subconscious in any way because i'm looking at you it wasn't right you know i i know that you that you're you're you know from your stand up that you're a thinking bloke and that's the point really the point is that the whole culture war thing gets devolved into non-thinking responses yes yeah yeah and that's why i you know i really hope a lot of people watch this interview because i think this is how you talk about this sort of stuff but david it's a great book i don't want to let you go just yet it's a brilliant book i recommend people get to and think and discuss these issues actually in the way that we've been having but if you don't mind i did want to take a few minutes because all three of us being comedians and i remember when the whole count dankula thing happened you took a what to me was an interesting position someone who who simultaneously describes themselves as progressive but also is a thinking person and you know you talk about you can joke about anything what is your view of this heat d discussion we've been having in the comedy world about freedom of speech versus making sure we don't offend people and all of that where do you come down on that well as i said earlier i think you have to look at it on a joke by joe basis so with cal dankula i mean actually i wrote quite a lot about that because i changed my view about that but not completely well no not completely so my first position which i was on ricky gervais's podcast was uh this is obviously or can it can so could easily be seen as someone taking the piss out of nazis because yeah i believe there actually was someone who was arrested by the nazis do you know about this you probably do yes because they taught their dog how to do a nazi salute and the nazis took that fair enough in a way i mean you often hear that with the nazis but fair enough as taking the piss right yeah and that's what it seemed to me when i first saw it right teaching your pub particularly a pug to do that and then someone got in touch with me and said no but you don't really understand the nature which maybe i didn't at the time of [ __ ] posting right and the idea that [ __ ] posters do this thing which i do understand more now of sort of subsuming really hateful right wing ideas uh into lols right into like oh we're just being funny and blah blah and he showed me this um uh you've probably seen it thing from i can't remember what the website's called now it's called something like the daily stormer which is a kind of manual for ship posters which basically says if you want to get [ __ ] hating ideas out there do it under the cover of comedy right and pretend it's all just plausible deniability because i was just having a laugh so so i then wrote another piece well i i've done the ricky thing and then i wrote a piece for the tls in which i said oh right i'm folding all this into my thoughts i still think uh probably in this case it's mainly funny and i quoted peter cook and dudley moore who i think on derek and clive peter cook says something about watching the dangers of watching nazi stuff and he said it's terrible because you i watched stockholm the other day and then before i knew i'd gone down to golden screen and massacred about 200 of them right and there's no question i think that's funny not least because again on a joke by joke basis yeah he's taking the piss out of he's not taking the piece out of massacring jews he's taking the piss out the idea that people can be so easily influenced right that's what he's saying the piss out and that's what my thinking is always you always have to see where the joke is well the thing with dankel of course the police did go through all his online communications and they found no evidence of any kind of prejudice so i think in his case the evidence would suggest that he was just a joke uh and i've met the guy and he doesn't seem like a bad guy to me but look that's that's personal but what about the broader conversation do you think comedians should be you know wary of offending people or do you think it's just quite a bunch of snowflakes ruining comedy like those seems to be the two polar opposites yeah i don't think either of those things yeah i think also you have to you know i mean i do think that comedy is obviously much more police now than it used to be and i think that is an issue and uh you know some of the time i think it's a conversation and it's a conversation that's worth having and some of the time it does it's more you know what i sort of worry about it more with the second guessing than i do with the thing itself if you see what i mean so it's less for me about like oh here's an example of someone who got really attacked and whatever because he did this joke or whatever that is what is that doing to the writing of comedy or the thinking before you even do the joke and i think that is a worry i think that a lot of people including myself now when about to sort of put pen to paper with a joke or whatever thing oh yeah but what are from all sides x y and z gonna say you know are they gonna find bad intent in this joke that isn't there and that i think isn't that i think isn't good for comedy because i think you need to have a kind of freeform ability to just say what you feel and then maybe like you know deal with the fallout but the sort of like stifling of your head beforehand i think is a really bad thing it is and if when you think about the greatest comedians the communities that we all love and respect whether you know the richard price patricia and neil's a bill hicks whoever it may be you know they they certainly didn't have that filter yeah well i don't i mean i was turned on to comedy by derek and clive that's why sort of why i'm a comedian i don't know if you know it that well uh that one yeah right okay but that for me what i thought was funny about that and brilliant about that and still do is it was two blokes with no filter like just quite drunk improvising both of them comedy geniuses particularly peter curculo so with study more in my opinion and as a result you get this unbelievable you know level of sort of extreme tourette's like swearing and obscenity and whatever and it's [ __ ] hilarious you know somebody probably hasn't dated that well but i still think of it as really [ __ ] hilarious and that's my worry is that that side of the brain is being closed off yeah it is a worry isn't it and that self-censorship that you talk about is the thing that i think i think a lot of people feel and look i i really admire you for saying it because i know that as a progressive that isn't the mainstream view necessarily on that side of the spectrum yeah but i mean you keep saying as a progressive i mean what i am is as with jewishness and as with the humanity that france talked about earlier you know i'm just i mean politically i've said this for a while i think of myself as sort of i think that was a progressive but i am basically no wing for a long time now i was i would have described myself as left wing growing up very much so but now i think of myself as my main thing is original thought that's my thing right and by original thought i mean and certainly as regards politics but perhaps possibly with everything i'm not gonna have a pre-arranged ideological map that i'm gonna impose on any issue i'm gonna look at the issue and i'm going to look at the question that's being asked to me and i'm going to think what do i [ __ ] think about this yeah not i'm a left-wing person so i have to think like this about it right so that that's always been how long for a long time how i've been trying to think all right well that's good to know that that's that's right that is how we try to think about stuff as well and i think look all of us fail at that right all of us sometimes we all fall into ideology but you i mean the only reason that just as an apology the only reason i called you progressive is that's how you describe yourself no you don't talk too much i do describe myself as a progressive so that's why probably in terms of the uh you know i think because i do agree with some of that stuff yeah sure absolutely but david it has been a pleasure and an honor and it's i will say open one of my favorite interviews it's been absolutely brilliant we close our interviews always with the same question which is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society but we really should be i think it's constantine's baldness i'm glad i brought it up now because it really isn't being mentioned enough yeah absolutely i don't think we talk about it enough we should we should talk about it more we should in fact we should talk about it outside the scope of trigonometry it gets discussed on trigonometry quite a lot but i think we need to broaden out the conversation antoine is our producer anton darling could you turn that into a meme please let's not forget don't worry anton doesn't need to someone else will take care of it i was asked the question and i said it without self-censoring knowing it might cause a fence but that's brilliant that's really that's what i love man uh david thank you very much for coming on our alt-right podcast we appreciate it i hope i hope you've managed to put up with anti-semitism on the show well uh it hasn't traumatized you too much it's been great it's been really enjoyable thanks guys very enjoyable chat david thank you so much for coming on jews don't count is the book uh please go and get her it's available everywhere and we will see you very soon with another brilliant interview like this one or a live stream all of them go out 7pm uk time take care and see you soon guys we hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode and if you 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