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let's start with what is one might think is not an economic question but it is and that's covet 19. because most economists say we can't get there without getting past covet 19. that's right and also i think we need to adopt the mindset that we've got to find a better way to escape from this this pandemic to bring it under control i'm afraid that this might turn into an exercise where people say well the blue states had it right the red states had it wrong they've got to behave more like the blue states neither of them did that that well the blue states um had a lower death rate but they've also had slower recoveries of employment back to where we were in in january so we need a new measure that's different from what either side was doing uh in the last three or four months and and i think it's clear what that measure is do what the nba did do what harvard and cornell and nyu were doing test people frequently isolate them and then let's get back to business by the way do what taiwan did as i understand it do what south korea did as well in fact we just heard from the president-elect a short time ago where he came and said boy this news about a possible vaccine is really good news but we're not there yet it's going to take us some time so it's pretty basic we got a test we got to do contact tracing wear a mask whatever you do and he said specifically it doesn't matter who you voted for now that seems pretty simple but the simple can sometimes be hard because it's not clear people are going to comply with that yeah well you know there was an interesting comparison of how new jersey responded to an outbreak in the orthodox jewish community as opposed to how new york responded new york responded with the more traditional public health measures mandates don't group together in big groups don't do this don't do that wear masks in new jersey they just started testing people and gave people the information and this produced less of a backlash in new jersey and more compliance because once people started to see how many of them were infected they they took this much more seriously so as you say we've got to figure out a way to do both walk and chew gum as it were which is to say absolutely keep the economy as open as we can at the same time protect people but beyond that there are larger issues over the next four years eight years 12 years that we need to address with the economy and we have some people saying look in order to really get growth going again because as you know well professor romer we've not had really growth rates with the developed countries for some time the way we did before we need some massive thing something like a marshall plan effectively to really invest in the economy by the way we could use the infrastructure and we need to move to green tech technology at the same time no you're absolutely right if you look at the the growth over this entire recovery up until the pandemic both like the second obama term and the trump turn this had the lowest rate of gdp growth of any recovery since uh the end of world war ii so there is something deeper uh structural that we have to address and you know this is a time when borrowing is inexpensive this is the time to go big on uh borrow and build so i hope we can reach a consensus to on the kinds of things we could borrow and then build uh to make the the country better and professor or as i say you received the nobel prize for your work in economics and in part i understand that was a growth theory that had to do with information and particularly government investing we have arvind krishna who's the ceo of ibm just provided me with a letter that he's written to president trump to president i'm sorry president-elect biden saying look at we need to leverage science technology we need to close the skills gap we need to modernize digital infrastructure it sounds like the sorts of things you talk about yeah although you know you know the joke about economists there's always this other hand i worry just a little bit that this is going to sound like the scientist saying we told you so like we told you so we were right give us more money give us more power and uh everything will be fine i think the scientific community the academic community has to take ownership of the fact that expertise is not respected in the same way it once was so we need to figure out what it will take to rebuild the confidence and trust amongst most members of the public and we're not going to get there by just brute force or scolding people well when you talk about expertise it makes me think a bit about the government itself the federal government itself because various experts have written saying that under the trump administration there has been a de-emphasis if i can put it that way on expertise and that perhaps we don't have the same intellectual firepower the intellectual capital that we had before within the government yeah yeah we not only haven't promoted people we've left positions unfilled but we've also frozen people we've paralyzed them so that they're afraid to make decisions i think of this poor woman whose job it is at the gao to decide whether there's uh a consensus that the election is is over and then triggers the the the transition process this woman is like frozen in place afraid to make a decision because she's afraid she'll get yelled at if she does what's the obvious thing is to recognize that the the election is over and there were people in the fda people in the cdc in the same way they were frozen they wouldn't take leadership they wouldn't act they wouldn't take the kind of bold steps we needed to take so we need an administration that gives people the confidence to rely on their professional expertise and do their jobs do we know whether that's something the president can do with his administration without the support of the congress because it looks like right now it's more likely than not that the senate will have a majority of republicans yeah i think that the person who's at the very top of the executive branch exerts an enormous influence over all of the decisions made by all of the people under the executive branch and i think the signal from the top that you will be trusted you will be respected even if you disagree with some of your peers or some other uh policy statement from within this this um uh this administration that that respect i think can enable the people all up and down the bureaucracy to to do their jobs i want to come back to this question of growth because you've spent so much time studying it understanding it uh there are certain factors that i'm not sure we have a lot of control over such as demographics we don't have a growing population the way we did before which is i understand in history has helped generate uh some of the the growth that we've had uh if we don't have that demographic support what can we have instead of that yeah well remember uh the kind of the the size of the population is something we could control there are millions hundreds of millions of people around the world who would like to move into the united states and who would be wonderful people to join us as citizens if we could get ourselves together and figure out a way to to welcome that them back in the way we did in the past but if we can't reach that consensus and we probably can't for a while there are other things we can do like better investments in an educational opportunity something bold like what we did with the creating the land grant universities under the morrill acts during 18 during the civil war in 1862 it was another time of polarization but yet an administration decided to make this bold initiative uh his bold bet on science and education and it paid off for a century uh after that but i wonder if the politics permit that today because i wonder professor romer whether you can get the payback in productivity from education within the life cycle of a president for example a four or eight years is that a longer term almost generational move i'm afraid the things that could really change the quality of life for my grandkids when they're working adults aren't going to pay off in a big way in the you know in the life cycle of an administration so it will take some time i think to rebuild a consensus in this country that there's some things we do because it's the right thing to do and because we believe in the future of this country and we care about uh our our future citizens but i think we can get back to that that place things are bad right now but they're not as bad as they were during the civil war