Streamline your b2b saas sales cycle in European Union

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[Music] welcome to to all of you um and welcome to this session with the title challenging topic we will say perhaps to 2030 2040 we will see we will have a final final vision of this question at the end uh after just 40 minutes so um I I am on stage with three fantastic speaker to going from Germany from France with an extensive experience from everywhere mostly and so with Caroline tyer giar CMO from DP key julus gner co-founder of artist yeah and and Caron leish for founder from work motion so so let's get started because we we are we are we have a limited time first we will share with you a snatch of the European digital landscape just to uh have in mind uh some you can see the title but but the the no no no don't don't move it it's just an illustration you know it's just an illustration but it's a well-known fact in reality with the confirmation that Europe knows how to create and develop startups so at the beginning it was not so obvious but now it's it's uh it's very common and the good news also it's in all Industries uh from D Tech to to Green Tech etc etc uh and even more because it was not so easy at the beginning we are able to create and to scale up to to unicorns so uh we are late from the the other from us and China but not so late and we are improving every year more and more unicorn so it's a good news the problem is the scalet problem well well identified when we have to come to unicorns to decacorns there we are very late we we don't have the the we don't know exactly how to build Giants and uh and I don't speak about platforms because we have known minerality uh in this in this in this data set we we have if I take only the world top uh 50 worldwide Giants we have two in in Europe Spotify and zando that's all and it's not really platform as you know so there is a problem uh at this stage um one possible explanation perhaps and I try to make something new with this this slide is um perhaps it's a question of culture perhaps at very very early stage very beginning um because we have a lake of knowledge of each other of Germany France Spain but we don't know clearly the unicorns from the other countries I don't very very few of them so I try to imag imagine an index we have in France a famous index with next 40 the B the crme of the crme of our startups in in in France I try to imagine we have one for Europe so EU I I name it eu20 uh but with the ideas to take the first unicorns from each countries so in 20 we have 20 countries here from liuan Ireland and so on with uh with the startup but I don't I know perhaps less than 10 in these figures but uh so it's very very few in reality so it's not it's a the the the first part of the problem so with uh With You Caroline Jus and and Caron we will explore the the The Roots the Roots of of the problem and uh I will try to to uh to to begin with you Caroline um a Simo of dpky in a nutshell I will say that dpky is a company that helps real estate company become carbon neutral and and sustainable so the art of the Green Tech so it's a very interesting and uh yeah I take the time to I I I ask you my my first question and you work extensive background in international de development not only with DP key but with other companies too can you help us to understanding why it's often easier to go to the US first but perhaps you are not agree with that perhaps it's it's my IDE but you are not with that and that come back stronger in Europe so first of all yes I have more than 20 years experience in um the software industry and always uh in international context and I've uh experienced both ways to expand to the US so early in my career I I experienced uh how you can create a startup in Europe and simultaneously created in the US and that's easier but there are some prerequisite so it's easier because uh it's less intensive on Capital uh also you try lots of things when you're young so you're more agile uh you don't have to redevelop your product afterwards so uh it's easier from one perspective but the prerequisites are a little bit more challenging uh it means that you need to create a global uh startups uh from the beginning uh it means that you must have This Global Experience before creating those startups and uh it's very difficult for first time funders for everybody it's not for everybody yes uh you must have an experience of how to scale uh how to expand have uh International experience and not all funders can do that so you can be successful doing this um uh in that uh experience we had 50% of the revenue coming from the US and 50% of the revenue coming from Europe so it works uh but it requires uh a lot of U um skills and experience before getting started on the other hand uh what we see uh very often uh in Europe is um uh startups being created locally and then they expand uh to the neighbors countries and so even though it can seem easier like a baby step approach uh and in some ways it is then it is uh quite slow uh usually you create things in language and then in Europe you have many languages and many regulations so you have to adapt to each European country takes quite a lot of time and then you think that you're going to expend to the US but then you need to have a lot of capital to finance that because you need to um redevelop your product or adapt uh massively your product uh and re-experience the product Market Market fit phase and so that's challenging as well but there are strategies to overcome or make it less difficult um preparing these this these panels we we speak about the green tech industry which is quite specific in this capability to develop in Europe inside Europe and you have an experience on this I would like to to share with us this yes absolutely so the green tech industry is very different uh because uh it's very regulated and we are lucky that the Trump era of uh USA uh allowed the the the Europe to be ahead of the curve on those regulations and so European startups in Green Tech they're uh more mature with those regulations uh they have had uh the chance to experience a lot of things on their core Market before going to the US and so uh the example is that at DP key for instance uh we um the double of of the size of our main us competitor so it's a market that's EU driven which is very specific in the tech industry which is usually very us driven it's very interesting to have this kind of example because we have a lck of this kind of industry quite specific where open for our startup with an Open Garden I will say so uh thanks for for sharing this Caston I come I come to you and um you have a valuable understanding of our topic from work motion which is um a global HR platform um that helps company to are and board uh their employees on International level so what would you like to add to Caroline's first tring and perhaps uh especially regarding the US Europe dilemma you have some some great question thanks for for having me here um so I have a a little bit a different point of view than uh from Caroline I think first of all like in order to become a super power Power by 2030 or 2040 we need to 10x our ambition level right so um I do a little bit of Angel investment on the side like when I see a pitch de a early stage pitch deck the revenue ambition for the first five years is sometimes 20 million 30 million just 10x that right so think way bigger we shouldn't we shouldn't strive for becoming unicorns you should strive to become dier corns or I don't know 100 billion market cap I'm not even sure what this is called right um I think we are a pretty young company we are three years old um we raised 70 million we are in only a few selected European markets and now that when I thought about this panel today I thought man I made so many mistakes like I should have gone to the US like immediately right but as a European like we tend to okay let's first start in our home turf in our case that's Germany right so yes we claim to be the number one we are stronger than deal and remote and so on in our home turf but who cares at the end of the day right so Germany we are we we were strong then we hired our next sales reps in the UK because we understand the language right so we didn't have to localize that much and then from the UK we went to France because it's our neighbor but like France is like killing us it's a complete different market like different mentality like you need to be a French company in order to be successful here right so and we were we were afraid of going to the US right so why well because it requires a lot of capital you've touched this right so um hiring a sales rep in the US like it's like like those people are like making three times more than our highest paid Senior Management people right so it's like in the hundreds of thousands of US Dollars typically right you need to rebuild a big part of the company over there so I think the mental barrier to go to the US is absolutely there right and that's why we tend to think a little bit smaller and we tend to stay in our home turve in Europe and we go here a little bit and there a little bit but it's not it's not the real real deal so I think in order to become a superpower um we need to think way more bigger we need to think very us Centric right because that's where the growth is that's where the investors are that's where the the right capital is right so the very aggressive growth Capital that we need and then we can we can attract more Capital because it's Capital intensive and build those big companies um that we desperately need right so I also didn't know many of those companies that you had on the slide um everybody knows Adobe every know Salesforce Zoom I don't know Dropbox and so on but like who knows like more than three public uh B2B sasce companies in Europe right so pretty hard exactly you summarize the the B of the problem so julus um it's another another Vision we you founded Artist Artist Artist uh game of joke with with a name B2B software community in short to promote um hch sharing between s SAS Founders and investor mainly in Germany but not only I I guess we will explain this and it's particularly interesting for us in Paris to as as a testimony from cast is very very interesting and challenging from a German perspective also what what you learn about the difficulty of initially scaling up uh of uh of in Europe what is your your feeling it's a it's a good question and I mean it adds to Carson's answer I think so what do we do with artists we are trying to do the same like you guys do here in France for many years very successfully uh we try to connect the ecosystem and Germany and Learn by doing so so I think in Germany we have we need to differentiate like two company uh Fields one is like Venture backed and non-venture backed yeah we are always usually taking only a look on the Venture backed cases I think on VC cases there is a um framework now we see a lot and here I do not agree so much with Carston I think the General the general like really Playbook is Germany to us so if you manage to get Traction in Germany let's say a million in AR and you're successfully raising a serious a and you have the uh willingness of a Founder to move to the US then there is a very clear recommendation from uh the main investor side to move and there is a logic in it if we take the customer acquisition to Lifetime logic and put it to Market entry costs to Market lifetime value it makes sense to go to the US instead of France or Spain yeah so it's it's a thing in France we have this famous example of crto which just became his incredible growth exactly like that yeah so this is a thing nevertheless of course it needs like investment as C say usually 1.5 to two million 2 million euro minimum to go and I think there is attractivity to go to to France but if you take a look at the boards of VCS yeah classical German early stage VC you probably found four German partners and I guess if you take a look on the French we see there are many cases not everywhere but four French Partners so we are specializing on the investment site in functionality so there's a SAS expert and a green Tech expert but no one has a clue about how to conquer a new market in Europe yeah and I think this is the mixture we are seeing if you take a look on the other side like nonv backed maybe bootstrapped there is a problem of having the financials to go to the US and there you usually see expansion cases so you conquer customers in Germany big Enterprises who maybe also have a national subsidiary in in Spain or in Poland or in France and then you win this department so you're expanding slowly to front and then you're slowly slowly without a big growth case expanding to Europe step by step but this of course will not uh win the race and build Dions so we a little bit I think um um Stuck in the Middle from my point of view and this is the big problem yes it's we have to to work on this so perhaps we we can discuss about the some solutions and carolene coming coming to you I come back to you to to get your advice on what could be done to accelerate the growth um and uh of startups at the European level of course you know in other words what are the main bottlenecks you you identified or identified that need to be removed uh to enable startups to expand more quickly uh at European scale so I would say I think Global from the start uh that means leveraging all the resources that are available on the net right now um uh read blogs uh attend conferences like this one and there are many others as well uh so that you get comfortable with all the best practices uh to scale your business very quickly uh if you read blogs like Dave Kellog's blogs not only will it help you uh grow your business but you will it will help you uh Access Capital and that's really critical so I come back to that point if you want to scale and scale fast you need to access capital and in order to access Capital you need to apply a lot of a lot of best practices in all fields and be like a a revenue expert so I would say that the the European the European funders they are often engineers and so they are often creating great products uh they don't have a lot of business acument I know that's a cliche but uh in Germany and you need to learn that Revenue uh is a science sales is a science and you can learn it and there are best practices out there and you you should really get comfortable with those and be metric oriented that's a really mandatory I would say uh I also would like to um emphasize the fact that thinking Global from the start you can hire diverse team International Teams teams that don't speak your own language will get you out of your comfort zone but will uh bring a lot of value to your company uh and that's one example but really think out of your comfort zone I would uh I would say perhaps for for all of you um you you speak very um speak um very few about the the capability of European Union to uh facilitate the the growth of uh if we have uh an accumulation of Regulation to protect Europe just now it's some it's certainly good but we need also regulation to facilitate uh you identify some uh you you would like to have some facilitation on this site from coming from Europe or or it's it's a problem for just for startup to to find their own way I think if I can make a wish I would like to yeah but to be very realistic we are in the European Union having multiple stakeholders working on regulation and this is a process of compromises and this takes time so if we take a look on the data privacy regulation where we worked on a long time and then Implement implementation started I can say like 90% 95% of B2B s startups in Germany which work on the sales motion they do cold mailing yeah which is forbidden by European so just to give a example yeah and and now we are thinking about AI regulation and we're working on this and then it comes into place and if you take a look on the investment side there was a statistic from deal room I think published yesterday 2019 to 2023 investment 20 billion in the US versus 1 billion in the EU a lot of this like concentrated by but I I think we really need to think about okay the the regulatory side um I don't see a big of big chances we can think work on combining ecosystem helping it go to market because as you said I think there we don't are like re reluctant to the the regulatory side we can help each other on a way more formal easy goinging side how to do go to market in France how to do Market in Germany we can we can try to organize we can also do individually contact people Founders go to the other ecosystem and learn and this I think is what we should do more you want to yeah maybe to add on so two things pop into my mind so one thing is like it's it's incredibly hard and even dangerous to hire Talent over Europe but there's a solution work motion of course right so don't want to dive in that but like in Germany right now we have a big um discussion around isop right it's incredibly hard to um incentivize um employees I'm not sure how it's in France but in Europe it's there's no good solution right so you need to build like Phantom stocks and then they are taxed like um like income like at 45% or whatever so like and that's not really helping right so and then and then you have the US companies attacking us here in Europe they come over and they can pay they have like those incredible valuations right so um they they find the best talent they can pay with nice stock options or rsus or something like this the employees start to have dollar signs in their eyes and like and they are getting the best talent away from from us and it this is being discussed now but in Germany I'm not sure how long it's being discussed like for years and years and years and like like we're just doing circles and circles and like all of this overregulation doesn't really help uh sometimes uh regulations don't help but sometimes regulations do help so I know back to Green Tech I mean all those regulations are helping uh European companies get ahead of the US uh and we should really benefit from that so uh if some funders have some IDs some IDs go for it in the Green Tech space maybe one thing to add I I think it is we see two Trends yeah we even see very early Founders like preed directly going to the US incorporating there access to Capital going aggressive and I think what you said K I'm agree if the regulation is in place at a certain point it will be a protection barrier for us companies entering to complex they are not familiar so then we will have a chance of building Maybe 10 European DEA cons but to do so and to do it fast we still need to work on the go to market connections there because this problem still is the same I guess definitely it would be interesting to hear how you do it in Green Tech like how do you do go to market in in Spain if you're a French founder or French operator well the the the good things about regulations from the EU is that they're the same across Europe so the Spanish companies need to comply to EU regulations just the same as a German company and that kind of things so we were lucky in that perspective and so that's why uh we opened offices in Europe first uh but now we are really looking at the American market and uh starting a few things there and what we're seeing is that uh we're really we're really ahead and our us competitors they're struggling they're really struggling uh in EU uh because it's difficult for them to land in EU and comply with those regulations that they don't understand Plus in the US since there's um less appetite for those regulations and so on uh the market is less mature so they are struggling on their own Market thanks uh kaston you preparing this panel you told me that we you identify we have Lake in Europe uh of IPOs could you tell me more about this because it's certainly the key issues yeah I think it it for me it all starts with having the right the right capital A lot of capital and the right Capital right so but like how do you attract as a European ecosystem like a lot of capital or the right Capital like you need like those liquidity events like called IPOs or like really really big exits and like I said earlier like we we really haven't had them right so if you want to get to become a superpow by 2030 we probably need 20 IPOs of 10 billion plus market cap and I don't see them coming right so maybe there are few few potential ones but like I I really don't see like 20 out there so once we have like those incredible liquidity events like this will make the US VCS like really oh there's money to make in Europe right so right now like they I mean they gradually coming over right they are opening up their their offices um in London and maybe Berlin and Paris and so on but it's it's they are still hesitating because there's such a big opportunity over there in the US and for example what I referred to as the right Capital right so we have investors from Germany France and the US right and uh I can tell you like when when I have a board meeting like there's like it's like it's like two different worlds I'm talking to right so the European people right now in this environment like they say Okay cut cost right be cautious extend Runway right so until 2025 or 2026 like and then we have the US board member like says like no grow grow grow like what what is your customer acquisition cost what's your payback periods and so on so coming back to metrics like Caroline mentioned right and if the metrics even in a softer Market environment but if the metrics are still more or less healthy right so the US board member will always say like let's grow let's grow let's grow like you what do you want to become like a profitable company that's not growing right so no the big exits are out there if you have hyper growth and you have a clear path to profitability right so and I think attracting this kind of capital is is really crucial but we need those kind of very public events that everybody talks about um called IPOs okay um Julius you I agree with that and perhaps you I would like to have your your um perhaps your advice I don't know but U what could be the your um your um main ID to to facilitate the expansion of of startups uh in Europe yeah um very good question and uh there a couple of people working on this for many many years um I mean to be very honest like a a problem I'm facing in conversations every week independent of talking to Nordic Founders UK Founders French or German is they have super super big difficulties in entering another Market in Europe and if they try it's a basic but we are still uh at the stage so it's terrific sometimes I think we are still at the stage it's like the biggest thing I I talked to Alban from usine at the dinner at the lunch two weeks ago in Berlin and they are focusing on Germany right now and they like for us it's it's super difficult we don't know there are just a couple of few examples where this worked out and on the other side I think um it's not a it's not a rocket science yeah I think we have capital in every market and existing Venture Capital players which are should be known um I think there are some service providers in Performance Marketing in sales in in financial help which should be known as well yeah at least from Founders who operate there so if I think about how to solve this problem I think we just need kind of a a SAS conci in every country yeah if you if you're on a hotel in Paris and you have been never here before I just go downstairs in a good hotel and say okay I need a place to eat and then afterwards I'd like to go to a concert and then I maybe want to meet and I think it should be not too complex to set this up in all the big markets yeah and uh not sure if this should be done on the from the governmental side or if she should be a Union of I don't know Founders to make it just faster uh or maybe it's a business model in itself let's see but I think this would help uh to accelerate crazily if we would have this clearly we it's uh we need to accelerate no we know that because we are the lack of platform is a is a a real difficulties at the moment we have to to build um at the continent at the level EU continent [Music] uh I just think to the metaverse when when it will come it come in China but it's more difficult in the US and perhaps in Europe but only if I take this example to develop this kind of new new way to to enter the internet without platform we can't do that it's impossible to to to deploy these kind of services or very limitation and Europe will be very uh uh in B in good position to create content for the metaverse and so on but where we can we can develop the the services and to reach uh in a social networks way the the people uh in the different European countries so the lake it's the same thing for e-commerce and so on so we have a lake of platform we are dependent from the the US one and perhaps in the future from the Chinese one we will see it's more more difficult but there is progress every uh on these uh on this part of the story so um so I would like to to to have your your your feeling perhaps if you are pessimistic or optimistic at the end of of of this panel um to the capability to build a more independent digital Europe ecosystem it it is possible or it will be uh forever uh we will remain at the frontiers of of our country with some success but not at the the level we need perhaps okay uh optimistic otherwise I wouldn't be here so of course it's not a done deal of course it's not easy but uh we need to remain optimistic uh we need to be bold uh we need to uh have some motivations to uh build really uh European Giants uh and we need to play with the same weapons than the US so we need to get educated and we need to share the world and um and make it happen but I think that's possible perhaps it's come your optimism is coming from your your industry from the Green Tech because we we are you are on a positive wave uh as you said also to develop your business between in inside the European Frontiers uh have you the same uh feeling or or Vision Julius um optimistic but also a bit realistic um I think C mentioned we we we are able to manage and to build big giants like was it Sando at the early days and we we did this and I think the good thing is we have a super hungry and talented uh bunch of people here yeah who are hungry I think there is a period of time where we still need to find the way and it is probably accessing US capital it's probably going to the US very early um but I think it it will take time and we all need to work on the ecosystem but I I don't see a big disruption the next two to five years as long as we do not really accelerate our efforts here no exactly we don't see many change in in the three but that's why it's important to have this kind of discussion because we we have first to to to share uh the diagnostic also uh to to identify the the paino and kaston for from your side I I I I'm sure you are optimistic but perhap you you can refine me your point of view actually I am very optimistic um I've been doing startups now for 12 years um so I came after a little bit of Consulting to Berlin um in 2011 like early days of tando and uh and it was a complete different ecosystem back then right so it was different deals different funding opportunities and so like the knowledge in the market in the ecosystem was just a complete different one and I've witnessed now like a a generation or multiple generations of Founders right and with every generation with every exit like maybe not IPOs but like like midsized exits right so we have fresh Capital that's going to be reinvested um by previous Founders then become angels and so on so I've W witnessed all that and like 12 years ago it was only Berlin right so like back back then for me the entry into becoming a Founder was came from Consulting was hired by rocket internet um that was like the typical path right um and now and now there's so much more so in Germany there's Munich and Hamburg and so on there's so many centers right now Paris has um developed incredibly I'm not that familiar here but like what I what I witness here is incredible so overall I'm actually very optimistic right I just think that the 2030 is a little bit too ambitious um I think it will take a couple of more Cycles right so we need the IPOs and then we need the dickon IPOs and then we need the 100 billion market cap IPOs but I I see a few companies out there that that can that can reach that and will reach that most likely so I'm I'm optimistic I wouldn't I wouldn't leave Europe right so for like I wouldn't I wouldn't move to the us just to start my next company I think I think still it's the place here but next time I would do it a little bit different I I have more or less five five minutes from remaining I would like to come back to your own activities because we jump directly to to the to the theme of the of the of the panel so it was obviously it was a it was the job we we and and uh so it's uh it's uh perhaps you if you can share with us what uh what is your next move in your in your activity uh koline you you say you but it was last year you or this year you leverage 100 million uh a bit more and to do what so yes we raised 150 Millions last yeah last year um which was the biggest fundraising in that specific uh space and so that was for International expansion so uh we uh uh accelerated on specific European markets so we open already uh EST we have we have offices in London yeah London Berlin Milan and Madrid uh and uh the the the most recent offices are London and Berlin and we're seeing great success in those geographies and we are also having an open eye on the US which means what we're doing uh since we were not created uh at the beginning of the creation of DP key were not created at the same time in Europe and in the US now we have to do it the difficult way but it doesn't mean that we can't succeed uh we do a customer lead expansion that means that we're trying to close uh us customers from London or Paris or Berlin and once we have like a handful of customer and we tested the product the goto Market how we solve customer pains and that kind of things and how we can uh fine tune our uh product Market fit then we open an office and we we've done that uh in European geographies it was successful and so that's what what we're replicating on in the US market partner or by yourself so uh actually both uh we're starting with Partnerships so we've signed earlier this year a global partnership with CBR which is the biggest player in the real estate industry and uh we are now signing us customers from Europe uh and so probably opening a real big office next year but we have a few us employees behind the scenes already okay okay so it's a we will follow this with a very interest uh Julius what is your your next step so the reason I think I'm I'm I'm here in uh France is to understand this ecosystem a bit better and uh to think together how we can connect this two world worlds and make more uh together so uh the next step is a very um easy one we are doing the Arches Summit on the 12th of October where there will be a lot of knowledge Founders and sea level only and investors sharing their knowledge about the German and European market so if this is of Interest I invite everyone to connect there because it's not only a summit I think it's just a resource which helps everyone the next 12 24 mon months to enter the market and uh super operationally I'm here the next 6 hours so if someone needs help or just an opinion about Germany happy to talk uh in the next uh in the next hour important part because we have no time for Q&A so uh it's a it's for everybody so if you want to interact with the with the panelist so we we will take times uh at after the the panel itself kaston for for you what is the the next move um so there like as founder that's always like um Cycles right so sometimes you're fundraising then you're building then you're restructuring whatever right now we're like in the cycle of just putting our heads down like focus on execution um I so just yesterday on the flight here I had to say no to multiple inbound um investors that still keep contacting us say right now it's like a terrible um time for fundraising right so um public markets okay they have recovered a little bit but now they are more like flat right so still the private markets vure capital is still not yet bullish enough to write like big checks so for us this means like we are focusing on execution like we are getting our kpis in shape and I think in 2024 in our in our category like there will be a lot of opportunity maybe there will be new fundraising rounds for sure there will be consolidation popping up right so companies running out of money so um a lot of opportunities for us and I'm just focusing on Building Division I it's an opportunity for me to ask ask you also another question we we read a lot uh just this week about a crisis in in Germany which is not so uh so common in the in the past time so there is an impact on on the digital development of the digital companies on the fund rising and what there is something uh which is could be to be followed I would say absolutely right so um it's interesting now like um it started um last year right so the first layoffs in the US the big Tech layoff right and then we saw this um coming to Europe a couple of months later now we seeing insolvencies so um it's very interesting so um like companies that started to lay off six months ago eight months ago now become insolvent so very like little funded companies um unfortunately are going bankrupt right because there is no fresh Capital so and this is all also coming from the macro environment of course like we always love to say yeah like who cares if Automotive companies sell a little bit less cars because they're under pressure from China or something but at the end of the day like it's an economy we are part of an ecosystem of an economic ecosystem and yes we impacted right so but overall I'm I'm bullish right there will be an up cycle for sure and uh and then all of us like every single startup will when The Tide Rises right all of the boats are are risen as well okay so it's uh very important because I think so even if I I point Germany we are most of the other country or European country in the same boat and uh and digital certainly is a part of our future and we will need to to to come back to this same uh during a following panels following but on the ground also and thanks to have shared with us your experience your skills and I hope so you will learn two or three things it will be some things uh and uh we we are at the end of uh thank you so much so thank you so much a big big round of [Applause] [Music] 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