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all right Andie you can start we are live cool thank you um good morning afternoon and evening to everybody joining from different parts of the world so my name is Angelina Costa and I'm tuning in live with product people and will be your host for today so before we begin we would like all of you to get up on slido so that you can engage with us we have a nice breaker poll coming up and also for any questions and answers um questions that you would like to post to our uh presenter you could also use slider for this purpose so one way that you can do is on the left you have this QR you can scan that directly and join us on slido or you can also go to slider.com post the code 798 0270 and then meet us up um on slider so while you do that we are also live streaming on multiple platforms like LinkedIn um twitch um YouTube and and um Facebook so make sure that if you have any friends that like to join us that you call them over um on these streams as well so hope you are on slider uh right now and hopefully looking forward to engaging with us as well so today we have a very interesting topic which is which Ceremonies for your product Discovery true and that will be run by Samuel here so it's going to be a really interesting and really neat Topic in terms of what we're going to learn today so encourage all of you to again engage with us send questions if slider is not working for you could also use a comments um section on the platform that you are in we have our colleagues Manning those channels as well so a little bit about me right um I come from a background of product management and business analysis doing that for the past five years and in terms of the industries that I've worked in I've been in B2B B2 b2c and um also did my degree in Business information system so it was basically a natural progression into this role so I leave more about me uh for later and quickly go into what we do here at product people so we provide intering product management services using our 42 in-house employees employes that provide services around uh product leadership and product operations so we are also really big um on spreading knowledge across product topics and we do free events and talks just like this one um in order to spread knowledge and also get in um and help any aspiring product um managers with any type of um topics they would I want to get to know about using the presentes and the knowledge that we have so before we begin we would really like to get a sense of who our audience is today so that Sam well our presenter will be able to also get um who the audience is and the question and the Icebreaker poll that we have for you today is which habit do you find most beneficial for product Discovery so the first option is interview customers as a team every week brainstorm as a team every week for your second choice the third option is treat experiments like us stories and finally we have Define okrs for Discovery so again you could meet us um at slider.com scan the QR on your right um or directly enter the code that you have on the screen which is 798 0270 and please post your answers there you could also use a comment section on whatever platform you at um and we'll be happy to get those answers as well so I'll pause you for now um for a little while until you get your answers writing cool we have our poll in so for interview customers as a team every week we have 80% of the audience saying that as the answer brainstorm as a team every week 40% has chosen that answer um fortunately unfortunately um the third and fourth options don't have any um answers from the audience so with that in mind over to you Samuel for the topic which sermon is for your Discovery to you thank you and over to you thank you Angelina it's very interesting Paul to see that the focus is on the the research on and ideation a bit less on the experimentation so we'll drill into uh into that because that's the the subject of today let me find the right sharing share click here we go you can see my screen right beautiful thanks thanks for having me so today I want to talk about Discovery and what I discovered by by doing it so is kind of a based on Dual track agile so still some agile practice so the ceremonies we know in agile Sprint uh planning review Ro but these are new ceremonies specifically for product Discovery and still focus on the on the trio so a lot of product teams use a trio of product lead a ux ux design lead and Engineering lead so having the three components is always key to to progress together ultimately it's PR mer based on Jeff Patton dral track the idea is to have the whole team contributing to both tracks Discovery and delivery they the trio in my view one of the great ideas to have the trio as a kind of Founders like a startup Founders the three founders with equal rights equal voice so we need to to agree on the way forward and uh there's a startup so I always like to see the product team as a startup trying to conquering to conquer their product vision uh t t t so yeah the three ceremonies we go through today are user centered insights user centered experiments and user centered strategy so I think the idea is to bring bring a bit more human Center design into this dual track dual track method from Jeff Patton and trying to focus on the user first obiously we are businesses so we need to to to be able to make money to survive but first we need to bring value to the customer that's why one thing I always like to do is to still do some research with open eyes without uh a fixed uh business intent and to do user insights as opposed to business intelligence to really drill into the user pain points gains and from there find out where you can play where you have uh some compet the advantage to provide value so always start with insights the strategy at the end of day a cycle the strategy will will inform and focus the insights on every uh every rounds every Cycles so insides first from the insides usually we we create a how might we statement trying to find out from what we found what can we provide as a value and move to experiments and the in the experiments we design now we don't use MVP much we we use the term minimal valuable experiments so the idea is to from the Insight validate or invalidate what you you found and and trying to to move towards delivery or not um so from the we use the can ban we go through that to move those experiments from ready to done and uh the the output of experiments deliverables is the a map of validated learnings we want to validate and validat everything we found and then we we have a concise view in the form of a user Journey when you can see uh yeah all those validated learnings the very much Lan startup style and from the experiments we move into the the strategy to decide uh are we going to move to delivery with those or not so here I use a derivative of the impact mapping also pretty close to ter teres opportunity solution Tre but we also want to bring a bit of a more lens on the business one thing we do is a continuous business casing and then create a Lin canvas for all of those before moving to delivery and then the strategy will align a bit more the insights obviously you cannot do research out of the blue all the time you need to focus on the area where you can bring value so three ceremonies inight experiments strategy and they are part of this dual track organization so at the bottom is the track you know delivery Sprint planning review and retro I remove the Retro here for simplification on two weeks uh Sprint method we usually we align with the same duration with first an Insight then we do one week of ideation with daily ideation habits and then we start with experiments from those sides do one sometimes the experiments can go further three sometimes even six weeks and then we we review insight and strategy on a two weeks basis and then when we validate these items move to the the product backlog uh when once they are validated they go to delivery usually it's more only six weeks cycle but it depends on the on your domain so start with Insight the first ceremony and the the focus is to have both qualitative and quantitative and continuous interviewing is one of the great method to keep a p on your on your Market keep a p on your user and also shadowing what people people say it's not always what they do so it's good to have a bit of both the hearing them with uh full empathy and and shadowing looking at what are they doing either live in a design Sprint style or just uh reviewing recordings and all of that usually go to a research repository to to align we do some mainly we do Affinity mapping what are the things we hear often and are repeated and on the other side it's bit more Tech Focus the quantitative we have more and more data available to us uh Behavior analytics NPS surveys support tickets transcripts transcript from support from cells pre-s CRM data and those are very interesting to to correlate with the the qualitative components and especially now with llms you can do a lot of strong things by corating this data and doing mainly uh NLP natural language processing and uh and segmentation so you can uh pinpoint for a specific segment what is the sentiment on or I'm quite focused on the e-commerce these days so if you take uh checkout delivery you can have an index or the sentiment specific to genz for example so you can monitor are the JZ happy with delivery or is there some deviation so obviously it's difficult to analyze all these data so the idea is to do some topic analysis see what kind of topic is recurrent if you talk about uh uh some reordering yeah using the topic and the sentiment for this topic you can see the Baseline and one thing that is quite strong actually is to just do a standard deviation from uh from an index and then you still have a animal detection is also good to to detect if sometimes customers use your product in a very different way that you expected so all of these go to data Lake and we we we call it distilling our lake to go into our wall of pain points sometimes we call this ceremony The Distillery we distill the date in and make a concise wall of the paint points so next step out of insight is the the wall of paints when in e-commerce we have a kind of a quite well established user Journey from awareness check to check out in delivery so we can uh we can put on this map some Snippets from Snippets from interviews or data directly and we classify them from the the sever of those pain points and the frequency is also something key we use so here just a few example I think we're going to share the the link if you want to drill into these examples so this is the was the first ceremony insights after the insights we move into eviation and we are all used to the Daily standup and realize from my experience what we what is good for ration is not really to do that together as brainstorming that to do a daily sit Downs as opposed to daily stand up and to do that actually alone and in silence so the idea is that every day each of us we we think about the how might we statement we focus on from the the wall of pains and we start thinking about what would be a solutioning what could be a good idea and based on the brain writing as the link and the mirror template in the preso the idea is that every round first you you introduce one idea and then you you improve on one of your colleague idea then a new idea again then improve to the idea we two rounds each day for one week and one of the good way to to do to improve on someone else idea is to think a bit like the Blue Ocean strategy think out of this idea what can be added removed increase decrease to to to shift the proposition to differentiate yourself and sometimes to to compare to other industry so for e-commerce we in fashion we like to compare to how is it solved what are the solutioning in food delivery or traveling so trying to think in a a neighbor industry so this is the idation doing every day and uh at the end of this Ed we got some uh some assumptions of of those potential Solutions and we we move into the experiments this is the second ceremony and the first thing we do at the end of day the goal of Discovery is to Der risk so we always map those propositions we do some uh some dot points voting on the key one and then it's pretty good visually to see which one are important for your outcome so for pretty much for your product vision is it um a key element or is it a secondary element for your success and then the certainty do you have a lot of certainty on the on delivering that or is it still a very blur domain so we focus on the on the top left actually unknown and critical for the the delivery of your vision we want to Der risk so start with the most risky assumption still in the experiments we move to our Canan of experiments so a bit more typical agile from ready to done and it's all about yeah ux prototypes or other type of uh minimal variable uh minimal variable experiments and uh we we also have a do definition already definition of done def already you have to be painful and frequent and we need to know which one would be or control variable you might see on the top right sometimes we impose for one week not to change something so don't want to change some of the email communication we don't want to change uh some options sometimes we even lock some onboarding to make sure is a a control variable yeah at the end you cannot change everything at the same time the same week otherwise you don't know uh what was the reason for it and then the def of done is pretty much to be statistically significant the the def already is part of our card experiment card so each sticky note here is a card on the board and we we need to describe specifically what U what will be the outcome so what do we believe will happen and what will we do in order to check that we will we have to disc describe exactly what you you will test how you will measure it and what will be the threshold to validate or unv validate this experiment so type of a ux prototypes we do a lot of U mockup for early test sometimes even uh uh garer type in the street but now you have a lot of online solution to to test with a pretty large audience AB test some uh some Mups so we're working on a a shared wardrobe uh position so out of that the last step of experiments the deliverable is this map of validated learnings so we know if the experiments was validated or un validated and if it's validated it goes to this this board this kind consistent View we overlay the wall of pains with the wall of uh learnings we can we can see uh if there is a lot of pains with not many learnings we probably want to focus on this area and it's it's classified by the the confidence are we 100% sure that uh this learning was U validated and then we move into strategy so at the end of day I know a lot of people start with strategy I think we is good to start with a a full open eye in your research to gather insights but ultimately as you go through cycle you need to to frame what you research and see there's a lot of solution impact mapping when you start with a uh a goal an actor what can be changed but also terus opportunity solution tree and a lot of them we start with a business outcome and here this endeavor to be a bit more human Center design we want to start with a user outcome as opposed to business outcome and for us we believe that the the ultimate user outcome is your product Vision what you want you want to change your customer or augment your customer a bit like in the job to be down sense the the ultimate outcome is a transformed or augmented user by uh borrowing your product so you to them and then you you articulate what you think you can do to them with your competitive advantage and that will be your vision and what we do we we use a bit of a mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive slicing that's why we also call it the the product Vision slicing so what are the the independent elements that creates your vision and quite often is uh is is some separate complimentary jobs that's why we slice it into some job to be done and those jobs usually we have some drivers and deterrent so we also use that to to look through the whole Spectrum so there are like agents of change of switching cost and only from there we start the opportunity solution tree so with opportunities align with the drivers or deterant Solutions we we spotted in our ideation and then experiments to validate and and validate so this can be can become a big Christmas tree but miror is pretty pretty good for that you can zoom in and out and uh and expand the tree in the right area and then yeah ultimately withit more classic the last two slides is about uh now but prioritizing your Solutions so if you have a different proposition it's all about um value versus effort so usually start top left quick wins something high value low effort and then top right high value but High effort is a more more bit more strategic so you that's that's the way to to prioritize but we also have another lens on this and we call it the the reverse funnel prioritization which is about looking at the funnel that upside down usually you have acquisition on boarding retention and um the experience at the end of the day we we think that U there's no need to to nail you need to nail the basic first so nail that first on the basic then provide some delighters I always think it's good to start delighters early if if you don't want to be a uh just another solution you want to differentiate yourself start moving on delighters at the end of day we all always have a bit of a different uh different uh epics on different area but it's it's a matter to make sure we got the right weight the right Focus along the year pretty much so yeah the idea that there's no point of uh of onboarding a lot of people if you not have a good retention there's no point of acquiring a lot of people if the on boarding is a disaster so this is one way to look at it and we also look at the with continuous business casing we look at the value of that we think basic needs usually it's uh it's your volume of user so the monthly active user if you have something so bit like the product Le growth premium system if you have uh something valuable and uh people are can can experiment quickly you can create a lot of monthly active user and then if you have delighters you can start monetizing with add-on in premium and then yeah retention usually the focus is pretty much the the bottom on the customer lifetime value on boarding is about the cost to serve support is also cost to serve and acquisition is to to nail your customer acquisition cost and we always look at the clv over CAC is a great one to focus on so yeah the idea is to start from the left and then increase is the bandwidth to fill fill your your funnel with quality you don't want to fill your funnel with the wrong uh Persona and the wrong cast and uh that's the the last like to recap so one thing is good about the trio is to think about startup with free Founders equal Founders and one team working together working together on both track dral track agile and instead of having the same ceremonies my experience using uh proding uh Sprint planning review retro for Discovery is not very efficient so my recommendation is to use Insight experiment strategy three focused ceremonies and then for the quantitative so continuous interviewing I think there's a lot of good elements in that but for the quantitative side I think having some baseline focusing on the deviation and gave you some some great insights on what to focus on and also as we said starting with the insights so having a really separate problem space first solution space second is always great not to confuse both and not to fall in love with a solution before you understand the problem and uh yeah we SP about the async Elation daily sit Downs with the the brain writing method I think it's more efficient than brain storming we also do brainstorming uh maybe twice a year with the extended teams so with sales marketing customer success but for the the by the every second week we do that uh with the product team and then yeah experiments is a lot more about syncup and agreeing on which variable have to be lock and uh for the the strategy yeah use focus on user outcome first then your strategy is about is about the the path to growth and monetization if you if you know you got value here there will be there will be a business outcome for sure and then yeah we we didn't talk too much about it but you also use okr part of our tree to kind of classify them so we want to make sure what we work on is aligned with the quatt okr so part of this uh impact mapping we also have a lens through okrs was one of the question everybody said no nobody use okr for for Discovery at the end of the day the okr have to be for a business focus so makes sense not to have OK for Discovery but to align your dis your Discovery with your your business OK and then I think something that is usual Now using the the quadrant to to prioritize I think it's great to visualize instead of using scoring I've been using scoring in the past but sometimes you end up with a 3.23 compared to 3.47 which opportunity are you going to work on very difficult when visually when you have two or three opportunities uh to focus on as a team you can agree which one is actually more in a quick win section compared to a uh more strategic section so that's that's it for our presentation and I'm going to move into Q&A cool stop sharing okay thank you Samuel for that awesome Topic in terms of all the cermonies that we can use um and also for bringing in your practical experience um and talking us through um those ceremonies it was a really insightful session and thank you once again so um we'll be moving into um the Q&A and for those of you who are just tuning in please feel free to scan the QR um or directly go to slider.com and join us using the code 79827 we already see that there are questions coming in so feel free uh to jump right in and ask and post any questions that you have for Samuel here um and I'm sure he'll be happy to answer with any clarifications that you have um post for him so while you do that I'm going to buy you some time uh by getting into a bit about who prod people is and what exactly we do so we work well in three different verticals uh the first one being providing interim fraction and product Management Services uh where we cover things such as permanent position covers parental leaves um and also work well when it comes to important and Urgent initiatives that need to be driven so the second segment that we work well in is product coaching and Consulting where we coach product management teams and also are a able to create streamline processes and programs and the third segment is product Discovery where we able to really discover uh the next impactful product or even run a low or no Code Pilot um MVP for your company so these are a few of our b2c clients this is not an exhaustive list this is just a snapshop wave of who we have worked with the same with B2B clients so all the way from client to ometria to srifi certain logos that you already know of and have dealt with as well so a bit about our company and statistics associated with us so we have supported 200 cross functional teams we have 42 product leaders and product managers and we have um 66% of women in leadership with 62% of women in the team so that being said I quickly go over to the Q&A and while we are at it please again feel free to post your questions either through slider or using the comment segment uh that you have on your platform so the first question that we have for today is can you explain the process and tools you use to review customer sentiment and voice of customer how do you incorporate this feedback into your journey mapping yes it's true there a lot domain with there's more and more tools I started in analytics with IBM which was a uh bit more classic so standard devation was a big thing and it's still pretty strong and then uh I use a lot of NLP tools before llms so to to analyze sentiments uh mainly Microsoft has a very very strong NLP proposition but nowadays uh there's some tools like next is a an application that can analyze a lot of your data a lot of your transcripts and can slice it as well uh for interviewing I use J2 J2 is great for scheduling so you can uh you can even um uh request a type of um of area you want to focus on within your your journey so if you want to do interviews about delivery you can uh schedule interviews about deliveries find the the right people but yeah I think nowadays I think still the beginning but llm if you check the the website there's an AI for that I think I've seen there's about 20 to 30 Tools around inside seven is also a strong one there a lot of tools uh to analyze your transcripts your data and and create some synthetics oh thank you Samuel so the second question that we have is how do you approach aign assumption mapping in your product Discovery process can you share specific Frameworks that help in identifying and validating assumptions the day this is more like a human touch so together we take uh we take the hry we take the the different solutions that came from brain writing and we we agree on where to put it on the board at the end of day we also work as sync so people put by themsel their their Solution on the board we use miror miror is used pretty much all the way in our process I'm about to to try to get the template released so maybe I'll add it to the comments in the future but at the end of the day it's all about to agree uh together is it critical to your your vision and how much do we know about this particular assumption cool no no LMS in this case thank you um and the third question that we have is how do you facilitate how might we brainstorming sessions to ensure productivity how do you effectively prioritize initiatives using initiatives Focus scoring we we don't do too much scoring we used to do that before we still do what I call product 360 I think uh twice a year we get together with an extended team like a off site with sales customer success marketing and then we do brainstorming where we we take uh one or two how might TW statement and everybody has a nice Dynamic of collaboration and it can create a lot more ideas but I think along the year we prefer to do the this Brin writing when every everybody on the their own time we we have a a reminder in our calendar everybody create some some idea for the one how might we of the week and and from that then we we position it into the Assumption mapping um quadrant cool thank you so next we have how do you prioritize hypothesis in your funnel do you have specific criteria of f Frameworks to determine Which hypothesis to test first yes so we do the the Assumption mapping so importance and certainty this the one we use to prioritize hypothesis then we use the the reverse funnel prioritization more for Solutions sometimes we still we have a look at this within the hypothesis if it's an hypothesis about uh acquisition are we going to be more efficient on acquisition on the this segment and we know it's not the focus of the of the quar then we kind of De prioritize even if it's a unknown critical to the end state but we we look a bit of both assumption mapping first and this uh reverse feral prioritization cool thank you uh the next question is how does a typical two we cycle look like where delivery and discovery B in parallel can you give us a rundown on the recurring events yeah so we still have the the classic uh spring planning review retro on a two weeks cycle and at the same time we got another two we cycle pretty much synchronized which is the Insight experiment strategy and uh the same team sometimes you have be a bit less less people in the discovery ceremonies so it's a bit bit more intimate but you always have the the trio and at the end there is a rotation so we want to make sure everybody contribute to that we also have a always have a syn up every six weeks so sometimes it's not not everybody is uh participating every single two weeks but there is a rotation mainly from Engineers we also have a uh customer success marketing joining especially the continuous interview doing so you you have the trio 100% of the time as kind of special guests all right thank you the next question is could you share some best practices for managing a conbine board for experiments how can we ensure efficient movement of experiments through the stages this one is also the The Human Side together we decide to to move the this experiment card from left to right so you have to be uh you have to match our definition already so which is the the the test the hypothesis the metric and the and the threshold to validate and validate and then together depending on the focus we schedule the next set of experiments because at the end of the day we we focus on one part of the the journey map each each uh two to to six weeks Max so we don't want to remove too many items at the same time so it's about agreeing all together those next two weeks will be about acquisition more than U than on boarding potentially cool thank you um the next question is how can a product team member encourage leadership teams to embrace the Dual track method balancing the importance of focusing on outcomes that's true still a bit of a new world this uh product Discovery so I think one great thing is so I've got this uh product 360 when you have executive joining twice a year there's kind of an extended format of that so was a good uh good introduction to this to Discovery otherwise uh actually having executive participating in continuous interviewing is quite strong to let them uh let them see and uh also sometimes we do something closer to the design Sprint so on the last day when you have real user testing our prototypes we have exx uh watching the the live stream usually it's a it's a good eye opener to the the strength of Discovery all righty thank you so the next question is what does continuous business casing involved how do you balance it with the need to be agile and adaptive in your product Discovery process unless your startup usually you have a a baseline of U of Revenue of one soft cost and recuring cost and U and then the churn that Define your customer lifetime value so the the main idea is to compare for this this particular opportunity how much would it move the the n in terms of new user so monthly active user whoever is going to move the needle on the spend per user so the RP average revenue per user for e-commerce is a average order value with frequency and then if it's more on the cost saving uh is this proposition going to save save some cost on on boarding to save some cost on the support so we we do a bit like the the quantitative is focused on the the deviation from the Baseline our continuous business casing is focused on the uh kind of deviation or obviously positive deviation Improvement to to this income statement really perfect thank you and the next question um is mosto aimed at me I suppose so we have I showed up a little late how can I get at least your slide for further study so you can always use our YouTube channel for this um video and it's linked there so please feel free to use that to get a slide deck and the next question that we have Sam for you is how do you keep track of all the tasks that need to get done during Discovery do you use a separate J board or is it all handled in Mirror yeah pretty much all in Mirror because you have teams in different location different time zone we try to do everything that can be done async we try to do async on mirror so people um yeah uh add their their idea for solutioning propose to move an item on the the Canan board and then we review we we we do sync up during those ceremonies the ceremonies are live one hour or even two hours events but yeah where as much as possible yeah everything is in in Mirror cool thank you Samuel and that was our last question for today so thank you uh the audience for posing those questions for Samuel and you can also free free to subscribe to our news letter you can scan this QR code where we share aspiring topics in terms of product through our newsletter that you can read um and really get to know more about product and so we'll be continuing our live streams and the next topic will be developing your experimentation mindset and the speaker will be James so feel free to tune in to this on the 16th of July as well and thank you Samuel thank you for this exciting presentation and for walking us through uh this topic that you had and for answering all the questions the audience has and thank you audience for joining us live uh we product people please feel free to get more people to join with you the next time around and get the word going so thank you very much and signing out with product people Angelina Costa thank you very muchina