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well hello everyone and welcome to the next in our CCS talks series of webinars Europe's next CCS facilities my name is Jamie burrows and I'm client engagement manager at the global CCS Institute for those of you who are not familiar with the Institute the Institute is an international think tank focused on accelerating the deployment of CCS around the world we have offices in Melbourne Tokyo Beijing Brussels London and Washington DC before we get started a few words on housekeeping you can adjust the view within our go to webinar platform using the icons at the top of your screen today's webinar will last roughly one hour towards the end of the session I will be putting your questions towards our speakers if you'd like to submit a question you can do so using the questions panel there on your screen we will be recording today's webinar and making a copy of the webinar available through our website in the coming days well today I'm delighted to be joined by Trudy sunset and marked riesen Trudy is the CEO of gas Nova the Norwegian state Enterprise responsible for the development of carbon capture and storage and also the body which is coordinating the full-scale project in Norway Trudy began her career as a researcher at CIN teff before moving to Statoil now equina in her 19 years at Statoil truly held a variety of senior positions including chief researcher and vice president Environment and climate mark Rison is manager public affairs for the porthos projects at the port of rotterdam mark has responsibility for stakeholder engagement and communications previously marked worked for the Dutch government in the energy division of the Ministry of Economic Affairs okay some background to today's webinar so Europe has now made a net zero commitment and there is growing recognition that CCS will be essential not only to tackle emissions from hard to abate sectors but also to enable clean hydrogen production and carbon dioxide removal from the atmosphere the title of our webinar today is Europe's next CCS facilities today we have two large-scale facilities in operation in Europe slight nur and snow fit both in Norway both operated by Ecuador there are more than 10 large-scale projects in development in the background in Europe at this time and a number of other projects in the early planning stages the projects that we will discuss today are among the most mature in Europe and it's very likely that they will become the next to be operational in Europe they're not only important for regional decarbonisation but also groundbreaking adopting novel approaches that may transform the way that we deliver CCS elsewhere in the world so let's kick off with the full-scale project and I'll hand across the Trudi initially to provide an overview for you thank you very much for inviting me to speak at this important webinar I have the pleasure of heading gas Nova and we coordinate Norway's full-scale project for carbon capture and storage on behalf of the Norwegian government if you could take the next slide please so as you mentioned Norway has 24 years of experience from effective carbon capture and safe storage in the North Sea and for the past five years we have worked together with 40 Oslo Varmus waste to energy plant in also and with hydaburg nor some cement factory in Breivik to mature to full scale industrial onshore co2 capture projects in addition we are utilizing our offshore storage expertise through the Northern Lights consortium consisting of Aquino with partners shell and total and plan is to build an open-access transport and storage infrastructure for co2 so for us full-scale CCS is about the entire value chain from capturing co2 to transporting it and finally storing it if you take the next slide if built as planned the to full-scale plants will be able to capture a total of 800,000 tons of co2 annually the Fulton plant will be among the first in the world to capture large amounts of co2 from a waste-to-energy plant and this project is important also for the city of Oslo to meet its ambitious climate targets and can contribute experience to 450 waste-to-energy plants throughout Europe and the heidelburgh cement and Wisam could actually be the first cement factory in the world to capture co2 and this will be a very important contribution to the cement industry which represents five to seven percent soot of all co2 emissions globally if you can take the next slide please in Norway we will be able to use people and skills developing the petroleum sector in new ways and we believe that in the future CCS could become an entirely new industry so our project alone will generate interesting jobs for some 4,000 people but we do not see our project as just a Norwegian project we believe this is a European project in fact the storage facility in the North Sea will have room for co2 from all across Europe so we are in fact we have a lot of over capacity in that storage that we're planning so as such it represents an opportunity for many European based companies and industries looking for ways to meet the mission their emission reduction targets if you can take the next slide please the Norwegian full-scale CCS project is a cooperation between the Norwegian government and companies in the private sector as many of you may be aware then we just take place is significant and active role not only in governing but also contributing to business development in Norway either as an owner a lender or contributor of seed capital to green or tech startups and the Norwegian state is a large long-term and active owner of some of Norway's largest corporations even those listed on the new Oslo Stock Exchange and particularly among companies basing their business on exploring Norway's natural resources aquino being one of them so when the Norwegian State began looking for industrial partners for our onshore co2 capture projects it made sense to team up with companies whose production is critical to societal development industries with large co2 emissions that must be reduced either by either to meet in post or self-imposed reduction targets or simply because the price of co2 eventually will become so expensive that they have no choice and the technology the processes and the learnings from the demonstration project will be of use to industries way beyond Norway and sharing our experiences and learnings is an important part of the mandate given to us by the Norwegian Ministry of petroleum and energy and we think that together with our industrial partners we have come a long way and earlier this year we together delivered solid documentation to the Norwegian government this documentation will provide the basis for the government's investment proposal scheduled for this fall if you can take the next slide please as expected cost concerns are high on everyone's agenda in government as well as in businesses and in particular cost related to CCS and CC us as compared to other climate initiatives and the combined effects of the corona crisis an oil price decline especially for the Norwegian economy could impact ambitions and plans in ways that we had not foreseen and could not foresee just a few months ago nevertheless I have actually become increasingly of the mistake what we see on this slide is how we foresee the cost development of CCS from the perspective of investors as well as the Norwegian environmental authorities and the cost curves improves significantly with maximized use of every part of our value chain and with increasing numbers of CCS projects and we will continue to focus on reducing technology costs through research and development facilitated by our research program cold climate and through the tests that we will perform at our technology center at amongst our if you can take the next slide please I'm pleased to say that the sentiment toward CCS has become increasingly positive during the last year both in Norway but also globally and most recently the European Commission stated that CCS will be among the technologies to get funding from the 150 being billion euro initiative set up to ensure a green transformation of European industry next slide please following the outbreak of the covered 19 pandemic the Norwegian government and parliaments have been looking for ways to keep the wheels of society turning suddenly and fortunately for us CGS is seen as a counter-cyclical project part of the solution to generate jobs and stimulate innovation in addition of course to being an important climate initiative and catalyst for industrial transformation and next an last light please previously ccs has unified a Europe / climate change and Caesars can be a bridge between those who believe that the situation calls for an axial acceleration or green transformation and those who believe that costly climate initiatives should be put on hold in order to prioritize immediate life support to ailing businesses so it's a bridge over troubled water now I think that's a good pretty good position to be in thank you very much I look forward to answering your questions excellent well Trudy thank you very much for your overview of the the full-scale project a few questions for you initially and then we'll discuss the porthos project so Trudy can you explain how the full-scale project relates to Northern Lights yes as I mentioned Northern Lights is the transportation and storage part of what we call the full-scale demonstration project in Norway so when we talk about the full-scale project it's also the capture plants that we're planning for the cement factory and the waste-to-energy factory and then we'll send it through the transportation and storage part which is called the Northern Lights thank you the full-scale project is the first CCS project in the world that plans to transport co2 using ships can you tell us a little more about why this method has been selected well it's a part of optimizing this as a demonstration we want to prove that you can put all this together in a value chain and to use ships is increasing flexibility so you can then transport co2 from for instance supporting in elsewhere in Europe as well as different ports in in Norway but we also have an intermediate storage as a part of our project and we are also building a pipeline to the storage site in the North Sea so it's a combination and you have to optimize if you expand on this value chain obviously but the using ships is something that we are familiar with and also we think it adds flexibility to our demonstration project great Trudy are you finding that other projects around the world are expressing interest in adopting a similar approach to transport and storage absolutely we do see an increased interest and we see interest in maybe copying parts of it or and we are as I said we have the mandate to share experiences and we put a lot of effort in to try to reach out and to cooperate so I think that hopefully we can inspire and cooperate with other projects that's that's our aim at least excellent excellent thank you well Trudy you touched on it in your overview there since the start of the year we've seen a global pandemic and it's it's widely expected that many countries will see recession how has that impacted the project well of course we can it is challenging when you have both the pandemic and a drop in the oil price a significant drop in oil price but fortunately we have responsible politicians that see this as an opportunity and to look at it as a counter-cyclical project where you need to create some new momentum and why not at the same time also look for green transformation of the industry so I think we have been fortunate since our project is kind of ready to go everything is done in the industrial way so we're ready for the investment decision and that made it easier of course when looking for how to turn to start the wheels turning again in the society this came up as as the kind of doing three things at the same time you do a project you create jobs and valuation and then you do the green transformation at the same time so we're very fortunate in that way I think excellent excellent well today the the Northern Lights partners have indicated their commitment to move ahead with the transport and storage element of the project subjected to government approval what are the next steps in that approval process for the full-scale project we just this week you actually had also decision approved decisions from our industrial partners for Tim and Heidelberg cement so they have all now sanctioned the project and just waiting the decision from the government and the Parliament and we have to invest a lot of money and and a lot of the funding needs to come from the government so these are really exciting times we're talking about significant investment at the same time as we have engaged and interested industries that really want to do this that is a prerequisite to make the decision but the timing is so that it will be a part of the regular budget proposal for 2021 and that starts just in August to plan for and then October 7th is when the government will hand over the budget proposal to the Parliament and depending on what's in there we could know that otherwise we'll have to wait to the end of the year to which for the parliaments decision so these are incredibly exciting times for the full-scale project if everything goes well when when could construction begin it could begin January 1st 2021 so just around the corner we think we've been working with this project for five years so we're just ready to go excellent and then when would you expect the facility to be operational the plan is in 2024 that's why we can start operation of the whole project both the capture plants and and this transportation and storage will be ready to kick off in in 2024 excellent excellent well true day we we hear a lot about public support for CCS in Norway we know that youth organizations labor unions bodies representing enterprise have all spoken about out about the for GCSE in industrial applications why do you think ccs has widespread support there in Norway well first of all I just want to express how grateful I am for all the support it's really inspiring and and very very important for us that we receive all the support it's I don't know exactly why but for one we have 24 years of experience so we have done it we have proven that it works we know we can do it we have the expertise and we have invested a lot in in research and development and in our state enterprise so I think that people are trusting that we know what we are doing and that we can also do it again and to share this experience with the rest of the world so I think this is something that the Norwegian people trust and then I also think that we have a long tradition for this close cooperation between the government and the industry so there's a lot of trust in in our country and on top of that I think also people believe in new technologies so we are a country that relies on developing new technologies and to try to take our society into the future so so but again very pleased that we get that kind of support excellent and truly what do you think other European countries can do to to build public support for what will become a really important technology for decarbonisation I hope that maybe we can help out to talk about what we're doing like we do doing today and we're pleased to show everything that we're doing in our project so in the contracts with the industry they are obliged to talk about their project and to receive visitors and to really talk about what they're doing and they are doing this in an excellent way the way I see it they are so good at sharing their experiences and I think the minute we have this in operation and we can prove it works I hope that that something that also other countries will will accept and and try to copy it or to do their things maybe in a different way but still talk about what they're doing and to take it out to the public as well I think that's important but I don't think there's a quick fix we have to make sure that things are safe and that it works and so I guess we have to be a bit patient about that as well absolutely excellent well true day thank you very much let's now move across to mark and the porthos project so perhaps mark if I can ask you initially to provide a short overview of the porthos project please well thanks very much Jamie and hello to everyone attending this webinar I hope you can hear and see me well my pleasure to tell you very shortly about this well very ambitious and quite challenging but I believe in the end just utterly necessary project called portals portals actually is an acronym for a port of rotterdam transport hub and offshore storage for those of you who are interested in acronyms and well actually you're also witnessing the public launch of our brand new corporate identity today including our own logo which I believe is a good indication of the progress we're making as a project so that's just a nice to know the next slide please you first very shortly a little bit about a Dutch context the Dutch situation here you see the reduction the co2 reduction targets for the Netherlands 49% reduction in 2030 95 productive percent reduction in 2050 the the 2030 goal of 49% reduction has been laid down in national climate agreement which was negotiated by hundreds of parties so it's a broad agreement it covers all sorts of sectors housing transport agriculture also industry and the interesting thing and good thing we believe is that for industry 50% of their reduction target has to be met by CCS and everything in the climate agreement almost everything is now being incorporated into government policy and next slide please then if you zoom in to Rotterdam and more specifically to the Port of Rotterdam areas Rotterdam truly is an ideal location for CCS and there are five elements which I want to mention why it is so ideal firstly we have a huge amount of emissions almost 17 percent of the national Dutch co2 emissions is located in our port area and that's about 26 mega tons per year and even though it's a huge port from CCS perspective this industry is located on quite relatively small area it's 40 kilometres in length it's a very lengthy port and so they're close together they're also connected already on several through several infrastructural projects there are world-class companies in our area who are willing to invest to invest in the energy transition as well and in willing to invest in CCS and for three and very importantly we have empty gas fields which provides storage capacity right on our doorstep well relatively right on our doorstep and I'll show you a bit more later only in the Dutch area and I know for the Norwegian area it's even more but I need a Dutch area we have about 1600 megatons of storage capacity but available sort as storage potentially enough and last but not least the infrastructure we are we wanting to build or trying to build is very relevant also in combination with other developments in the ports where a lot of works been done hydrogen production use of co2 circular economy ideas so all together we should be able to have a successful ccs project in rotterdam next slide please then what is the project that we are building I hope you get the overview in a second I'm not seeing it yet yes there it is this is our view of the of our project it consists of four elements we are trying to build an independent open-access transport and storage infrastructure for co2 so we separated the capture from the transport and storage infrastructure industry is responsible for the capture we are responsible for the transport and storage it has four elements an unsure pipeline right through the port area of about 33 kilometers in length that ends up at a compressor station when co2 will be put on a high pressure then pumped into an offshore pipeline as a third element and ending up at an existing platform gas platform and gas fields called the p80 platform from so that's actually an element we are reusing the existing platform which is still in work or still working and will be finished or the gas food will be empty by the time we need it next slide please Jaime um the project is being developed by three Dutch state all parties ABN coz SUNY in the Port of Rotterdam Authority so they're responsible for the transport and storage infrastructure we have four potential customers early key their products to hydrogen companies and Exxon Mobil and Shell to refineries and they are needed to get this up and running and to get enough volume of co2 to get a project they will deliver if all goes well they will deliver two and a half megatons co2 per year for 15 years and then in 15 years we will have the the gas field store well completely store because we estimated that about 37 megatons of storage capacity well it's an investment about between 400 and 500 million and we're playing to be operational by the end of 2023 next please do you then this seemingly very simple picture well it's not so simple and there is there lies a world of challenges behind this what we call public private partnership the fact that we separated capture from transport and storage a lot of people believe it's a good idea we do and but to get it up and running it gives you a lot of chicken-and-egg questions as we call them and the most simple only name one is we have the private companies who has have to invest in the capture but they will only invest in capture if they are sure that we will build the transport and storage infrastructure again on the other side we can only decide to invest in the transported storage infrastructure if we are shorter they will provide the co2 so we have sort of a will cover the funnel process where we steadily make more and more agreements with the private companies who have to provide co2 mutual commitments of course and we keep on investing they keep on progressing and then you have the third element of public authorities who have to provide and write regulation also the funding we already be in funded by the EU which we are very happy about but the Dutch government has also to provide some funding so this is a world of issues behind this cooperation between three different institutions let's call that next and last one I believe that just a round up the status and the planning what we'll do in 2020 and working towards final investment decision in 2021 we are hoping to close contracts with our industrial clients in 2020 that's a very very important step of course the fact that we cannot take fi d before 2021 lies well actually or solely in the lengthy permitting procedures that we have to go through then as soon as we have a party we will start building the system it takes about two years and we'll hopefully the end of 2023 could be 2024 at the beginning we want to be operational and then the last light just says thank you for your attention our brand-new website excellent well mark thank you very much for your overview of the Porthos project exciting times it sounds like we're not so far away from seeing a ccs project there in in rotterdam a few questions for you so has the global pandemic and subsequent economic impact affected the project at all no not at all and actually it seems to have even given sort of a stronger drive for everyone involved to work as hard as we can to make this project a success of course we know it's three state-owned companies we are fully committed we have of course checked with potential customers what the effect is on their work and they've oh there are all still committed to our processes so so far if anything it seems to have a positive effect on the project excellent it's great to hear that both the full scale project in Norway and Porthos there in Rotterdam seem to be largely unaffected by ground virus and and the economic impact at this stage at least mark we've been hearing about the s de us+ scheme that's being introduced there in the Netherlands can you tell us a little bit more about how that will support CCS deployment there yeah sure actually for a for the first time in history and this is one of the most crucial elements of our project the Dutch government is putting a subsidy scheme in place which includes CCS they are expanding an existing subsidy scheme for renewable energy with technologies aimed at co2 reduction including CCS and so that's the first time an industry can actually apply for CCS funding on a national level the u.s. four mechanisms in place or had some mechanisms in place even earlier and what a subsidy scheme does or these aims to do is close the gap between the ETS price and the total costs of T is yes because the total cost of CCS are still higher than the current ETS and I will not dive into a 2d but it's a competition on costs so the cheapest technology wins or comes first let's say they have a total budget you can apply the cheapest comes first and the second cheaper then third cheapest until the whole budget is gone of course so there's no certainty there's no specific CCS budget in there there's no certainty that CCS will get through the application to get through the subsidy scheme but we are very confident that we'll succeed however it is another interesting aspect is that all four of our potential customers have to apply individually they all have different costs for capture they cannot apply together and all of them have to be successful one of them fails we have quite a big problem I have to be honest but then again we're trying of course to mitigate that risk and and I believe that this subsidy scheme just provides an excellent and a golden chance for industry to close the business case for for CCS excellent so what are the remaining steps to to finalize that scheme and and what does the application process what's the time scale involved in that application process yeah well we're waiting the definitive publication of the regulations which can happen any day now by the ministry and then they will open up the first call this autumn so it will be in a well quite exciting autumn for our project I believe because if we get through it we have taken a huge huge step in our project absolutely it sounds like it would be an exciting autumn for CCS in Europe in the home excellent so mark EU recovery plans are currently being developed and it's expected that energy transition will feature prominently within those as part of those recovery plans do you anticipate any additional support being provided to the porthos project and well that the case what form would that support take well I will not believe that there will be anything specifically for portals there I hope that CCS will be part of the recovery plans and of the EU or national recovery plans or any recovery plan that's being put out I believe well of course everyone is looking for funding but maybe for now for me it's more important that by including CCS into recovery plans it gets more and more clear that that institutions such as the EU underlined a necessity of CCS and I believe something that's still missing in the whole CCS debate is politicians ministers commissioners at the EU to openly speak up about the necessity of CCS I think everybody is still very reluctant to speak out on CCS in the Netherlands especially and that's something that's still missing so I hope by including CCS in these recovery plans and in energy transition plans it gets more and more of a given effect that CCS will be needed as part of a whole mix of technologies to reach our climate targets absolutely excellent so mark how long has it taken the porthos project to to get to its current position and why is it important for this project to move ahead as soon as possible yeah what we've been working on the project now and I was involved from the very start for three years started in the summer of 2017 and well actually had it the importance for me is quite simple there's no more time to waste think about the carbon budget every every tonne of co2 going up in the air is a ton too much one too many had on our estate in English and and I believe we have the right momentum especially now as I just explained with that subsidy scheme in place and we shouldn't miss this momentum and well also say last but not least I mean there's been so much talk on CCS so much debate but the one thing that's lacking in Europe is projects apart of course from the two existing ones in the in Norway so we projects to really show and indicate that CCS is viable and necessary and works a co2 reduction absolutely absolutely um mark I understand that they're hopes that the the project could eventually expand and connect up with some other ports could you tell us a little more about that yeah what I what I just presented to everyone was the current scope of portals that is what we are developing right now and however at the same time we are also investigating the possibility of future well let's say expansion or growth of the system and together with our two competitors the Port of Antwerp and/or seaport and we developed a plan to sort of together explore ways to physically connect the three ports for co2 for co2 connection the infrastructure and the three port areas are very comparable in the sense that there are all three of them are huge industrial areas with high emissions and and actually face the same challenges as I said we are fierce competitors but we believe that the energy transition is not something that we compete on that we could actually well better work together than be competitors and we applied for what's called the project of common interest status at the European Union and that was granted earlier this year and so we will slowly explore together how we could connect these ports but also the other two ports have to first well check their own to do their own feasibility studies about CCS in their area so it's it's a long way to go to connect them and we believe that we we are onto something that could be very interesting to - well in the end realize but let me emphasize just it's it's a sort of a separate part of portals and it needs separate decision-making so what we're working towards now fi D is for what I just presented okay so a wider network connecting those different ports would be quite an undertaking what what sort of policy support might be needed in the background well yeah I think are some European issues to be tackled about shipping of co2 for example cross-border issues with liability for example store co2 but I believe also that other countries if we want to store co2 from Belgium also Germany have shown an interest in in the portals project if what if they want to store co2 through the portal system then I believe their national governments or the Belgian government the German government also have to put in the right incentives on their national level because of course the the Netherlands subsidy scheme is only available for Dutch parties okay great great well thank you very much mark I think now we'll turn to questions from the audience so you can still submit questions through the GoToWebinar control panel so let me just pick out our first question here first question that has come up is regarding collaboration with other CCS projects and specifically how projects are collaborating together so I'll ask that question to Trudy initially and then Mark asked you to comment on that afterwards well we try our best to cooperate and to share knowledge and we do that through lots of different platforms and we use our websites we go to conferences we have meetings and we have a lot of visitors coming to Norway from different countries sometimes from authorities in other countries and sometimes from from industry that that are interested and then we have a lot of collaboration on technology development which i think is really key so getting we are a part of this active program in in Europe and we can also support research and demonstration in projects in other countries as long as it creates some value in Norway so I think through those active engagement in participating in in joint projects is very important and we should probably do more so I'm looking forward to in the future to to share even more of what we were doing and to learn from others ok and yeah I kind of think about three who do you agree with what root is saying and what we notices there are also some other projects in development even in the Netherlands which Mellon's is quite a small country so you get of course you look into cooperation and collaborating together but well I also noticed that you need full focus on your project to get this done to get the project done and so we have decided to to be quite strict in freezing our scope for a moment and not be too distracted by what other projects are doing because we first we need to build this infrastructure and of course we want to share knowledge and we want to be open to everyone and wants to talk to us but it it's a lot of hard work to get this project done and and we'll start but I'm sure we'll start collaborating more and more as the years progress so and I also would like to add since we are building we're planning to build an infrastructure so we are inviting other industries and from other European countries to send their co2 to our transport and storage facilities that will be the real cooperation I think if that happens excellent excellent the next question that is here are there not current legal challenges to the Seabourn transportation of co2 across borders storage and true name I'll ask you to respond to that question initially yes it's a very good question and I'm pleased to say that I think it was in October it was agreed that you could that was legal so the London protocol the amendment hasn't been fully validated yet but I think it was Norway Netherlands that really approach through an agreement so that it is legal but you do have you also have to have an agreement between two countries to transport the co2 from one country to the other so if the the willingness is there it is fully possible to do it today excellent excellent mark anything to add on that question no great thank you Trudy the next question here relates to Germany what would you say to the German government to convince them that CCS is both the safe and essential to decarbonize industry and for hydrogen production and well i'll ask mark to respond to that initially well we we or at least also I know the Port of Rotterdam and if the Dutch government is again is intensifying the contact with the German government also on cross-border infrastructure and it's not just CCS it's also hydrogen and we noticed a very clear movement in the in the German government where CCS is back on the agenda what what we would say is look look at all the research that's being done look at your industry and the alternatives that are not yet there to decarbonize them and i know in germany the cement industry is quite vocal in aniseh for necessity of CCS but what we have as portals if we talk to the German companies or German governments we have very good conversations and they seem to be more and more open to two CCS but and of course in show them also the possibility of using portals as an infrastructure and the same will probably go for for troodon yeah sure we actually organized a big European CCS conference and also pissed last year and we had a lot of European speakers and some of them from Germany and we had a representative from WWF in Germany who spoke very positively on the possibility for C's yes so I think we're getting there and I hope it helps that we focus on industry emissions so its emissions from industries that don't really have a choice they can just switch to renewables because the co2 is producing in the production process and and those industries amount to 25 percent of global emissions so we have to solve it so there's no alternative I hope that when we show that that's what we're actually doing I hope that that will convince a lot of people that this is necessary and also that through our experience from storing co2 for almost 25 years that this is a safe solution and we're happy to receive the co2 emissions from Germany hope that helps as well absolutely excellent I'm Trudy I have a question here specifically for you truly mentioned there is research on going on CCS for which aspects we have a very broad research portfolio I think we have supported more than 500 projects in research and demonstration and it's on capture its on transportation it's on storage and it's also environmental consequences of using aiming capturing co2 for instance and then we have a lot of hybrids you know how to put up a value chain all these smart things that people come up with and how to optimize the value chain so we have a big portfolio of a research issues that we are pursuing that's very important excellent excellent and the next question I think is for both of you and it it's just regarding the use of co2 utilization in each of the projects can you speak a little about that Marko I'll let you start with that question yeah well for for us we try to be very clear we are building a transport and storage infrastructure that's what portals is and you can transport it of course to storage but if you want to transport your co2 to somewhere else where it can be used we're more than happy to do that but we as portals are not the developers of utilization projects and so other companies are doing that and they can come to us with questions for with demand for co2 or supply of co2 and we'll be more than happy to to transport it to anywhere so that's that's actually my my answer well I believe it's yeah I believe it's it's a lot of interesting synergies particularly on the capture side so developing new capture technologies which make use in in CCU as well as CCS so I think that's we don't really distinguish between how you're using the co2 again the same with portals we are setting up an infrastructure for transportation and in geologic storage that is because that's what we know how to do in Norway and we are very concerned being government-owned it's about helping the climate and we know that the majority of co2 capture needs to be go to final storage but that doesn't mean that you you could find good projects and good products also for for use of co2 so those should work side by side but if you look at the numbers the majority needs to go to storage actually if we look towards 2050 and to reach Paris agreement goals absolutely and I think that aligns with the Institute's findings as well when we look at the size of the markets for utilization they can make a contribution but ultimately we need to look at large-scale storage to really make a significant impact the next question here relates to the capture technology that is proposed for the different capture sites could you perhaps a little bit about the capture technologies that are proposed for the various capture sites involved in your projects and through doubt I'll let you respond to that question initially we're using there are different technologies but they are both aiming absorption of co2 it's important for us when we are setting up this demonstration project which is complex - to do all this at the same time and to make it work at the same time so and these are commercial industries and the capacities we're talking about is of commercial industrial scale so we need to to have a low risk as possible on the technology side so it's commercially available technology which is most of it is aim in technology out there but we certainly are very interested in seeing how we can improve and to reduce costs from the technology and then of course also looking at new the next commercial technologies that will be there if we are able and that's what we want to do to create a market for CCS we definitely will see a lot of new technologies and we are just developing our technology since that monster to support tests of other types of technology like membranes for instance ok and mark well having separated capture from transport and storage I'm not a capture expert you know however is that our customers are capturing what's called a pre combustion co2 so it's the cheaper that more pure co2 to capture and that that will be the the place did the logical place of course to start with because simple it's it's cheaper but I'm not intraday they capture technology so shoot you should ask the industry no problem what's really interesting I think is as we move ahead and this becomes a big market I think also we'll see that process industries like aluminum and first Elysium and cement they probably will develop new technologies with where this is integrated we recycle and you get more higher like you said higher percentage of co2 in your waste stream so I think there's a lots again from the the in the future when the industry thing does this this is the new normal for their business and they will integrate it more directly from from when they construct a new site absolutely and within the Institute we're seeing that process take place now so we're seeing processes being developed which incorporates CCS in the mainstream okay the next question here relates to the ships for the full-scale projects what kind of fuel will be used in the ships will they be a greenhouse gas neutral this is definitely an ambition on that I don't really know all the details but definitely it's it's about using new technology so that you minimize emissions definitely so it will be a part of those designs yes okay there is not a question here just asking if the two projects are in any way competing with each other so perhaps I'll ask mark to respond to that initially and then Trudy Matt you can follow up no I've been very adamant about that from the very beginning we are not competitors its ashamed sometimes people see that and it's a shame sometimes perhaps you apply for funding where there's a single budget so you you seem to be competitors because you both want funding from the same budget but these projects are both so necessary that we don't treat each other as as competitors and we're only happy to see the progress that the full-scale projects in Norway is making because it also stimulates us and shows out of other well other interested parties that it is possible to get these projects up and running a company or a net no I totally agree with mark this is not about competing this is about cooperating and then we need so much of these plants so if you look at the numbers you just have to support everything it's happening out there and that sort of tried to do which were cheering for each other I think yes Lee I think there seems to be a huge amount of collaboration between different projects in Europe and a real openness to to share and work together the next question here are you planning a co2 pipeline infrastructure throughout the whole of Europe I think that's an interesting question of output that you first mark no we are ambitious but not aiming at becoming a sort of a European transport infrastructure and builder or company or something no we are starting in a part of Rotterdam and as I said exploring the possibilities within let's say about a 200 kilometer radius from a lot of them there's a lot of co2 available there but I personally don't see a sort of completely connected co2 infrastructure through the whole of Europe you know I think there's can have dreams too so why not but I think we should take a few steps at the time at the time and but of course if you if you are thinking of the future and we are trying to do something that will really contribute to to a decarbonized future I think the idea of hydrogen for instance from natural gas with CCS is interesting and then we could foresee at least the pipeline infrastructure in the North Sea where we could export a hydrogen and then you know send the co2 back from where it came from and Unseld suits you to free hydrogen that may be a dream absolutely one final question here before I think we need to wrap up and this relates to co2 storage and it's really a question is it safe and can we be certain that no co2 will escape from the reservoir so Trudy I'll ask you to respond initially the answer to that is yes we definitely think it is safe and we think we have proven that it's safe since we have been doing this for almost 25 years and with this laettner project we have published a lot of data and so many research groups and universities have received data for free from seismic for instance so we think we have a very good understanding what happens with the YouTube wants it stored that's very important and the knowledge that we have from picking a good story site and to set up the right monitoring program so in fact in our project we just drill the test well and that was to take core samples and to do test production so that we could see that it's it's a reservoir 3,000 meters below the sea floor and so so it's important to do the right things so that you know that you have a good store and we found that it's really excellent even better than what we hoped for so we have so we are looking for selling aquifers where you don't have any oil and gas at all down there and that's what we proved so this was the first well drilled hoping not to find any oil and gas and that is what we did so you have to do the right things you have to know how to do it you need to monitor you need to model you need to learn from all these things but we have we believe we learnt that this is safe and we will continue to follow and use that knowledge excellent mark anything to add well we're building all the international lot of knowledge especially from the Norwegians of course from existing CCS projects we believe that we have a perhaps an even better layout being storing in empty gas fields where gas has been safely guarded for millions of years we don't know how long and we have to abide by all these safety rules for getting a permit we have to deliver all these safety plans we will monitor everything and come we'll be 100% sure know it's still relatively new also the storing in the empty gas field but are we comfort in that it's safe yes and well some sometimes people say to me how can you you're not sure whether it will be safe for a hundred years or a thousand years and all I can say if you don't start now in a hundred years will still not be sure I mean it's the alternative is to blow it up in the air Alex excellent okay excellent well I think we have to move towards closure of today's session thank you everyone for your very interesting questions and Marc true day thank you so much for your responses before we close here true day where can our audience learn a little bit more about the full-scale project we have a website that you are that you could visit and please send me emails or contact us and we can be available for asking answering more questions I would happy to do so after the this webinar excellent and Mark where can our audience learn more about the porthos project yeah on our brand-new website portal co2 dot NL netherlands and there's also a general email address on the website so you can always email us with any questions more than happy to answer them excellent excellent well Trudeau mark thank you so much for sharing your insight today and also thank you for your leadership in helping to move CCS forwards in Europe it's great to hear that these important projects remain on track and we're really excited to see how these projects develop in the coming years so thank you thank you thank you a recording of today's webinar along with recordings from our other webinars in the CCS Talk series can be accessed through our website -where you can also access various Institute publications such as our latest publication the value of carbon capture and storage and our flagship report the global status of CCS and we will be continuing our CCS talks series in the coming weeks the next webinar will be delivered on the 25th of June and we'll look at the drivers of current CCS projects in development on the 9th of July we will be delivering a webinar regarding the alberta carbon trunk line which is the newest CCS facility to become operational if you have questions regarding Institute membership or you'd like to discuss specific consultancy requirements please contact us using the email addresses shown we hope that you found today's webinar helpful thank you very much for joining us and have a great day thank you you