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hey there product gym is an exclusive membership organization and over the past few years product gym has helped more than 500 people land the product manager job of their dreams by showing the community how to secure more product manager interviews or product manager offers for ultimately better product manager jobs welcome to product gym so this presentation is about being a growth product manager it's very specific and i'm sure you all are here uh because you were interested in this particular specific topic so what makes a great great growth product manager um is we're going to be talking about that and it's very specific as i just mentioned um it's not like just regular product management um being part of a growth team uh is something that comes with a you know set of specific skills um so yeah excited to talk through that with you all all right so a little bit about me um so i most recently was at linkedin on the growth team hence the topic um and right now i'm actually working on some election related technology um so that's pretty cool um but the most of my consumer chops came from linkedin uh prior to that i was working at an edtech company uh before that i was a software engineer i was working on sales software doing like a hybrid product management role prior to that i was working in client-facing roles at tech at a nat tech company um and yeah so some of my hobbies music all that kind of stuff so um definitely after this um presentation let's connect um i love learning more about um you know attendees and your different product ambitions and goals as well so yeah cool all right so when i was on the linkedin growth team what did i work on uh specifically the pillar that i worked on was called the my network team uh within the growth team it's actually a subset even more within that uh called the network growth team um and the product that i work on was the discovery ecosystem so if you want if you go to my network page right now you will be able to discover new people like people you may be interested in uh you're gonna be able to find new pages to follow uh new newsletters all the good stuff that makes up the linkedin ecosystem um and uh yeah that was the product that i worked on most recently all right so the agenda for today we're going to be going over uh the following things so number one what even is a growth team right so you all may have some sense of what this is um but i think it's good to just walk through definitions uh get some grounding and then let's talk specifically about the product manager's role within the growth team so a growth a product manager who's on a growth team is a growth product manager like it's that straightforward right and so when you know when folks are talking about oh i'm a growth product manager that's what that means and we're going to jump into that and then we're going to talk about all right so now that we've defined that what makes a good growth product manager what is so specific about this role um that we can identify ways uh that you know what a good growth product manager is when it's not on the four specific things are being an ecosystem thinker being a data driven decision maker um an experiment driven learner and being super clear uh on communication so there's i mean there's a lot of overlap with just general product management of course but some things are more specific to being on a growth team all right so let's just jump into it what is a growth team so there's all these different ways to describe it uh but one of my favorite uh definitions or really just uh like a paragraph that encapsulates what a growth team is is by andrew chen so if you're not already following him he's like one of the og original growth like growth hacking growth product management uh leaders out there so he has an awesome blog he's also i think very tied to this program called reforge which is very much focused on growth practitioners but i like the way that he puts this he says if you build it just because you build it they may not come right even if it's a really good product even if it's like this amazing you know super usable super beautiful product and there's good product market fit even right that does not necessarily equal growth so more specifically more precisely product growth is the discipline of applying the scientific method to business kpis so it's like all right what's the scientific method right if you remember back in 8th grade you know biology right it's it's all about having hypothesis uh setting up an experiment being able to determine whether or not you've verified or not verified your hypothesis for your experiment uh but applying that to business kpis so it provides an underlying system for increasing metrics again another key point whether it's revenue acquisition retention etc etc um and uh before we go on it's it's there's this nice little chart here that shows you what a possible makeup for a growth team is like you have the growth product manager you have the engineers right like traditionally when you think of engineering on a product team it's about building feature shipping features but when you're on a growth team it's more about implementing experiments focusing on optimization things like that you have a marketer that does the same data analyst designer uh really it's the same it's the same setup as any uh traditional product team but very focused on experimentation metrics optimizations so continuing on with this we you know we made a pretty important point that we're pretty uh focused on saying like okay this is all about metrics right so what exactly are the metrics that we're talking about when we talk about a growth team or really just product growth in general um so you may already be familiar with the diagram on the left um they're called pirate metrics and that's because it's it's like r-a-a-r-r-r it's like what a pirate sounds like right um and it's an acronym starts it stands for acquisition activation retention revenue referrals so if you're not already familiar with this definitely google it you can literally just google pirate metrics and tons of really good uh articles will come up because it's it's old school like it's very established at this point um and it's old school because it's um it adheres to this more traditional model of a funnel and by the way just because it's old-school doesn't mean it's not valid like this the pirate metrics are always going to be uh awesome they're always going to be a good paradigm to rely on when you think about metrics but uh they're in a funnel model so let's let's talk through these real quick so at the very top is acquisition right so how do we even get users using the product that we just built like again it could be amazing it's this beautiful thing that we just built uh but it means nothing if you can't acquire people to actually use the product right uh let's say you even uh like product jim created a course right like that's great and rich did an amazing job putting together this amazing content but it doesn't mean anything until people are actually using it right um so that's at the very top of the funnel acquiring the users uh to start using the product in the first place um and for every step here there's a whole slew of metrics you can create right so acquisition could be like like how many users per day are required like all sorts of ways to cut it and measure it so that's step number one so then you have a bunch of people in the funnel it's great but you have to activate them right it's not enough for them to just log in once and then they use it once and then bounce right um there's we call this the leaky funnel it actually just doesn't it doesn't just happen at the activation step but any place where users can drop off um is considered them as being you know like a leak in the funnel right so examples of activation may be things like downloading the app after you've signed on on web or something like that or it actually gets a lot more interesting when you start making it more custom to your product so a lot of these products that are well established now they have this thing called like the aha moment where the users were not really activated until they reached this aha moment so for facebook i think it was like seven friends or something like that that at this point this is like silicon valley lore you could google this um slack with something like 10 000 messages uh within your whole company or something like that and then you're like truly activated and what does it mean to be activated it means you actually find value in the product that's a whole different we could talk at length about that separately and then retention is all right once i'm in it and i'm you know using it i'm buying value out of this product uh am i staying right and again retention can be measured in so many different ways but this is just to illustrate that this is uh the next step after you get activated and then following that are revenue and referrals so this only applies if your product is a like a revenue generating product which is actually every product but i'm more just trying to distinguish between b to b and b to c if it's b to b then obviously like if your customers are retaining then they will they'll pay come the next pay period right uh but if you're a b2c company uh revenue is a little less directly tied but it is still tied it's not directly tied but it is still tied to the retention of the users in the funnel um and referrals is you know like these customers love it so much that they're referring other people to the product right so that's the old school funnel way as i mentioned that's still very much real and true and it's a great model but there's there's this more newer model uh which is uh the model of loops so you may already be aware of um feedback loops and um like retention loops and things like that in your product and loops really address the key question of how does your product grow like how does it continue to grow so if you compare these two side by side and that's why like looking at this in one view like in the left side it doesn't really talk about growing the product it's more about like you get everybody and like make sure that they stay in the product right um and the bottleneck is essentially like how many more people can you continue to acquire right so then the onus is on your company to uh increase the acquisition rate or at least like maintain it or something like that whereas in a loop model with every step uh in your product there's an opportunity to acquire or retain or activate so a really good example here this is from reforge again that's why the logos on the bottom uh i am like a huge reforge fan just google reforge if you read everything on their blog you're gonna be like a growth expert that's how great their content is but like if you look at this example this is pinterest right so let's say you have a new user uh they found some content on pinterest and they're now activated step two um because the content is so good it's so specific it's so relevant to me as a pinterest user right and it is like that i don't know how many of you all are pinterest users but their machine learning and their recommendations are on point uh it's really hard to escape out of pinterest because the recommendations that show up under every pin are so are so good and then let's say you go to step three where you actually pin the content or you save new content then in step four it actually helps improve the seo of pinterest content and then more people can discover uh pinterest by just googling like they don't even have to go to pinterest.com uh if you go to google and you go to google images very frequently a lot of the times like the images will actually be a pinterest image uh so as you can see there's like more of a loop here there's not this very deliberate okay this is acquisition this is activation et cetera et cetera it's like every step can act as a like a a version of a step in the growth funnel so yeah this is more to just give you a sense of how growth practitioners like growth product managers think of the ecosystem and how we think of metrics all right so that was a lot uh that's actually like a pretty dense slide maybe i'll break it up next time uh but to simply put it it's like growth equals driving impact for your product and business ecosystem i put impact not only in bold but also underlined because it's that important like when you're on a growth team you as a product manager and your team you're evaluated on impact like how much metrics how much metric impact did you drive how much um like how much incremental impact did you drive in a quarter or in a week or so in a week but like usually in a quarter um so it's really important to think about growth as driving impact all right so that's cool we talked about growth teams talk about metrics we talk about driving impact so what is a growth product manager um as we said in the very beginning um it is actually as simple as being like the growth product manager is a product manager on the growth team who's aligned with this school of thought of optimizing impact and matrix uh for the business but let's let's start getting a little bit more precise here so a growth project manager is focused on driving measurable impact the business goal so what that means is that they actually have to have a lot of quantitative and experimentation chops so it's it's often more uh horizontal in nature because when you think about a product space or like a scope of like a general product manager scope usually it's like a feature set right usually it's like let's say i'm building a you know a e-commerce product and i'm there's a section there's like a feature set of the payments application there's a feature set of listing all the products or something like that there's a feature set of uh you know verifying orders and uh fulfilling orders right so that's like three different product managers you can hire for this company already and they're scoped to those products uh whereas like in a growth project management um framework it's a lot more horizontal because the the like core question you're asking yourself isn't like how do we uh how do we improve the experience for the feature set and the problem space that i'm uh that i own it's more about like how can i drive impact across the board and so it starts getting a little bit more horizontal and a lot more collaborative sometimes again like none of this is a 100 percent like always the case like there's obviously going to be exceptions but uh that's generally the case and so if you look at this you know classic diagram of product management sits between you know uh customer it's like design and then technology and then business that's still true for sure but then start adding experimentation and like very much uh start adding experimentation as your foundation to your product management practice that's what it means to be a growth product manager all right so then uh that was just like you know top level view let's start actually diving deep into what specifically this means um on on like a more um unlike a skill set level right because it's one thing to talk about what it means to be a good growth product manager from like a theoretical standpoint but what kind of skill sets do you need um so ecosystem thinker uh for some of you who've come to previous webinars uh of mine there i have one that's specifically around being like a systems thinker right this is going to be a subset of that number two is being data being a data driven decision maker tddm like data rules everything around you when you're growth project manager and that's i mean it's a great thing um it could be a bad thing as well when it's a little bit too much we'll talk about that as well and then being an experiment-driven learner and then being super clear about what your vision is specifically as it relates to metrics all right so ecosystem thinker why is it important to be an ecosystem thinker as a growth product manager it's really it boils down to one thing it's like if your job as a growth product manager given that you're on a growth team given all the stuff that we just mentioned if your job is to optimize for specific metrics that will drive business value then you need to know where you are like where you as your team is in the entire ecosystem of your product because that's going to allow you to see all the different opportunities um there's there's different ways i've heard this said but it's kind of like seeing the little nuggets of gold and opportunity where you can tweak things and optimize things and then drive more metrics and drive more impact on all these different areas well you can't do that unless you know where you are in the whole ecosystem so some questions you can start asking yourself are what is your what's your team's problem space like what is the problem that you're solving for um where does your team fit into the whole ecosystem that's more of a broad thing and how do you contribute so i always use this linkedin ecosystem uh picture because it's very like it's very simple but it's also extremely illustrative of this point like the linkedin ecosystem is that we have the consumer app but then we have the hiring platform uh then we have the marketing campaign manager built on top of it then we have linkedin learning built on top of it we have sales navigator built on top of it we also have glint now built on top of it that's like performance management and as a linkedin pm on the growth team you need to understand where you fit into this whole ecosystem knowing that little knobs and dials that you turn are going to create impact for the whole ecosystem so yeah let's actually use a specific example this is something that i worked on a couple months ago so my my problem space at edlington was to identify opportunities for people to connect to others i mean linkedin after all is a professional social network it's all about creating ties and connections so it was my job as a product manager on the growth team for the network growth product to identify opportunities and gaps in the ecosystem where we could create more opportunities that adhere to product principles that would increase more impact and more metrics impact so here's one example if you go on the home page of linkedin there's like a side nav there's the home feed etc but we realized that there's actually an opportunity to drive more discovery from the home feed for example like let's say a linkedin member comes to the home feed they've done what they're there to do as the primary task which is to catch up on the news stay informed uh with their network on the feed but then after that maybe there is an opportunity maybe there is a gap that we could fill to provide a discovery experience and that's how we created this little discover more tab uh to the left that then routed to the overall uh my network explorer experience and we drove some more metrics and more opportunities for members to discover more and connect to more people that way so that's just that's just like a little tiny example um but it actually illustrates just how small these things can be and how cross-functional they can be all right so number two so we talked about being an ecosystem thinker number two is being a data driven decision maker so data both quantitative and qualitative don't forget that this includes qualitative right when we talk about data uh should back up all your decisions so i would say as a growth product manager your first instinct should always be like let's say you have an idea right let's say there's some kind of opportunity that you've assessed the first thought is should we build it and you go straight to your napkin you go straight to your spreadsheet and you actually diy do it yourself first so not this is good for two reasons number one is you want to be able to present any proposal or any uh like any feature or any experiment that you want to run with some sizing ready and when we talk about sizing we're talking about like impact sizing so here's like a an actual you know like a dummy sizing but this is what it would actually look like right so let's say i have some idea for a some new entry point that i want to add to a a you know a page that doesn't belong to us all right uh what i would do is i'll get the total number of page views for that for that uh page get the actual click uh percentage of those who see the module drill down into the click-through rate et cetera et cetera et cetera like actually putting in the numbers getting the numbers from like actual dashboards right getting them from uh like our biz ops our data science if we don't have that data and actually doing it so number one is that like it helps with communication and actually presenting your proposal right but number two is it's for you like the more you do this the more you hone your quantitative skills the more you actually start uh training your intuition and intuition is of course just intuition arises from having uh a database of experience right so if you keep doing this at some point you're actually this is going to become more second nature you can start assessing opportunities more quickly um and it's just good for you personally so like if there's anything to take away from this presentation is like for every like every feature you think of like just try to do this exercise even mentally um and now yeah this is it's it's very practical um and you'll see you'll see like positive dividends from this for sure so what you want to do is you want to bring data and insights from previous experiments as well you want to be able to talk to other teams and be able to speak confidently about what you're proposing because you have these numbers and you have the sizing um and you also want to ask yourself what user research can you incorporate when you talk to the team and then you make proposals so yeah being a data driven decision maker is key to being a growth product manager so another part of being a data driven decision maker is focusing on saying no so when you do this sizing exercise let's say you have like five or six different uh future proposals the goal isn't to get like sizings for all of them right and being like oh yeah this is going to drive two percent uh lift to sessions this is this thing's gonna drive like x percent lift your goal is to actually focus down and pick the thing that's going to drive the most impact and then focus on that so one of my favorite books is called the one thing uh it's pretty straightforward it proposes that like in any given time frame whether it be a day whether it be a quarter you know whether it be a sprint like you should have one thing that no matter what it's like you that's the thing that you need to accomplish and by doing so you will actually uh focus your team more you'll focus yourself more it'll actually help you be more productive at the end of the day versus trying to spread yourself to to then uh and the way to get to that one thing is through data because the more you try to address things in like this very subjective way it's like oh but we should do this because uh like i feel like we should do this right like the more you you get stuck in this like feature factory type of uh situation where you're just shipping features left and right for no real reason going back to that andrew chen quote in the very beginning like just because you're building stuff right just because you feel busy just because your team feels busy doesn't mean you're doing the right thing um and so being a data driven decision maker as a growth pm is really good for focus because it helps you say no to certain things so i put here like your roadmap should not look like this uh there's nothing inherently bad about this picture it's just like you shouldn't look at your roadmap and just be just you know like frazzled you should know what the top priority thing is um by applying ruthless prioritization through through data this applies to all product management this is not just like a you know a growth product manager thing cool all right so moving on the next thing the third thing is being an experiment driven learner so the whole point of being a growth product manager that um actually to to reword this when we say as a growth product manager you want to optimize uh for impact in certain metrics right that's great but like how do you how do you do that right and the how is experiments so everything that you are pushing out is an experiment like there's no such thing as certainty in product management or life for that matter or life for that matter really right and so everything that you are shipping is a guess um and some are you know much more educated guesses because you have all this data from previous experiments like for example if i'm ramping a new ui on linkedin for a profile view and we're you know increasing the profile image or something like that uh that's an experiment but i know from previous data that whenever we increase the image uh it performs better um and so it's it's it's still an experiment but i have a lot of data to back up that uh the learnings from i have a lot of learnings from the previous experiments back up this experiment so a good way to think about this is this uh this two by two it's pretty it's like a pretty well known two by two it's like hey what do you know what do you not know what do you what do you know you don't know and what do you don't know you don't know right so basically it's like what are your known knowns things that you're certain of uh what are your known unknowns so it's like all right we want to know what the potential is for our page in terms of converting uh linkedin members uh from you know like from monthly active users to weekly active users right we know that we don't know that yet and how we achieve that learning is through experimentations the thing that's actually really tricky is the unknown unknowns this thing on the bottom left we're not going to talk about that today but i think that's where you become like a pretty like a next level product team when you start uncovering insights about things that you haven't even thought of yet um but that's very different topic but basically being an experiment-driven learner is knowing that there are questions you want to answer about your product i mean you own this product right you're the product owner your team owns this problem space so with that sense of ownership you should be asking yourself what don't i know yet about my product so even when i left linkedin like there are still so many things i didn't know about my own product um that i know could be answered so things like you know we just ramped uh events discovery on the linkedin my network page you can check it out but like how much of that can be driven through connections we hadn't solved for that yet right so those kind of things i would have been able to uh understand better with experiments um so design an experiment around these unknowns that you have and do it fast like iterate quickly ship multiple experiments uh and learn quickly um and part of learning is actually also you know like if you learn if you should if you run an experiment it's it can be positive sure but a lot of times it's negative as well so like let's say you ramp something and it actually drops your metrics that's alerting as well um so continuing on experiment driven learner you can only learn if you can measure your learnings so this is like another point another uh iteration for why you need clear metrics uh know your metrics better than anyone in the world like this is something we talked a lot about and linkedin is like you're the product owner like the product that you're uh like is your is your problem space you're the owner of that and like this is your baby so like if you look at uh if i look at the my network page like that was my baby right like i should i should know more about this product in the metrics than anyone else in the world um and part of that is knowing what your north star metric is so here's a good example of north star metrics for all these famous companies like facebook spotify etc and um like whatever your product is within that company like it needs to bubble up into this broader north star metric so being part of being an experiment driven learner is knowing the metrics that you're that you're trying to optimize for for your problem space and your problem your your product um and you need to know them better than anyone else cool all right so the last thing is more about communication and it may seem more of like a soft skill which it is but at the same time if you think about it like if you are in charge of optimizing for metrics as a growth product manager then you need to be able to like communicate that goal super clearly um with everyone on your team with with all the different partner teams that you're working with uh and you know the our director of products on the growth team we called it uh the one string guitar so you should be a cheerleader with a one string guitar like if anyone asks you like what are you about like what is your team about you need to be able to say it like in your sleep right so for us it was help members build the right network and from there it's like okay what does right network mean what are the metrics and what are you trying to optimize for like that's the kind of um one string guitar that i could play as a product manager on the my network team uh here are some other ones like give airbnb hosts the best tools to manage guest bookings i would assume that if i was a growth product manager uh for the airbnb uh host tools like that would be my one string guitar and if anyone asked me from anywhere around airbnb like i could just say that uh if my sleep um so it's really important to be able to do this because you want everybody to understand the why of what you're pursuing as a product manager in general but as a growth product manager so that when you're communicating what you're optimizing for what metrics you're trying to maximize for uh it can tie back to this vision that you have for your product and the third point here is super important you can't drive buy-in you cannot collaborate if you're not bought in yourself like if you personally don't believe in what it is that you're trying to optimize for and even worse if you don't know what that is then there's no chance they're gonna get other people to buy into this vision um and so this is i would say that this is true across all product management but it's specifically more important to growth product management because your goal is to optimize your goals to improve metrics and inherent in that means like you have to bring a lot more people on board it's not just about shipping features it's not about just uh you know shipping the thing that your top customer says they want it's about optimization and improvement and in doing so you need to really be a top-level collaborator uh to achieve that goal cool all right so just to wrap up everything the key takeaways here are number one be an ecosystem thinker because you want to understand how your product and how your work contributes to the overall ecosystem so that you can identify the different levers and like the different dials and knobs that you can turn to maximize impact for your problem space and your product the second is to be a data driven decision maker because you can't optimize if you don't measure and if you're not if you don't have comfortability and fluency in data so always be asking yourself what data do i have to back up my thoughts ideas assumptions and that's great but how confident am i in those thoughts ideas and assumptions and how confident does that help me be in my decisions overall and when i'm comfortable with my decisions then i can start communicating them more so this is where the crystal clear communicator part comes in what's the one string guitar that i can play and recite in my sleep so that i can get people on board with the different decisions that i've made and my team has made um and finally be an experiment driven learner because you're always going to have things that you don't know um and in order to identify uh in order to learn uh and uncover learnings and valuable insights and impact all the good stuff that a product manager wants right in order to get all those you need to be an extra experiment driven learner and you need to be able to formulate hypotheses and design experiments around all the different open questions that you have and this should be this should become second nature to you um as you start to as you learn to create these uh quick low-cost but thoughtful high impact experiments like though that's like the creme de la creme where you can just learn a ton your engineering team didn't have to do this massive thing and you can apply that to all the different projects in the future for your team so yeah that's uh that's that's the presentation those are takeaways um and now we can go to uh we can go to q a so yeah let's say there's always something about well this last live email to participants i don't know i i think we have to ask uh product jim but this will be posted at some point um but yeah let's open up the floor to q a um there's always some kind of lag so please start asking them in the q and a thread and i'll start responding to a couple of them so i saw lawrence lawrence shout out lawrence tam can we get the slide deck emailed to participants i'll let you know if we hear of anything but it'll definitely be they'll definitely be posted so i'm going to say answered cool anyone else no zoom is super weird they will like usually come in a little bit later also check the uh message thread here chat no questions it's all good if you all don't that's fine too all right they're coming in all right mustafa it's a growth pm what's your biggest regret in your top advice yeah good question i would say um i don't know about regrets but i'll talk about like some of the dangers of being a growth pm or like some of the gotchas it's like so this whole presentation was about you know drive impact uh it's actually very cool being a growth pm because you can like you can see the impact that you've created right like you can measure it um but there's two things so the first is like two two gotchas are like when the when the name of the game is i mean that's not the whole game right but if a big part of the game and big part of the role of being a growth product manager is to optimize then sometimes that becomes like there's a there's a tendency for that to become the main thing and you start optimizing for optimization's sake and that's where you have to catch yourself and that's where like product sense comes in right because maybe you will do some sizing you'll go through all these exercises you look at all the data and it shows that like hey actually for sure this is going to drive impact this is going to drive a really big chunk of impact uh but then you look at the actual proposition and you're like your proposal and you're like wait this is actually a bad experience like this bad usability like this is only going to drive metrics because we put it in front of somebody prominently right so yeah that's number one is like not a regret per se but definitely be on the lookout for optimizing for optimization's sake and then the second point is actually pretty much tied to that um there's this thing called i think it's good heart's law where it's like if a if a metric becomes the goal then it ceases to become a good uh good metric because then you just start optimizing that metric and then you start or it ceases to become a good measurement um so that ties back to like hey what are you what's actual value that you're driving uh for your users and members um and if you're just optimizing for that then maybe you're actually just putting yourself into like this loop where you're just optimizing for optimization's sake um i see you asked a follow-up question mustafa i moved from 17 years of pre-sales to pm a year and a half ago i find it easier to sell customers versus selling engineers what are your thoughts uh yeah man i mean it's a different game it's a different game that's that's actually uh i would say like selling to engineers doesn't really work because there's no selling to engineers right it's more like problem solving together so i would say that's the key difference is like selling to customers is i mean sales is difficult for sure that's one thing but um when you're talking to engineers like you're you're trying to solve a problem rather than sell so i would say that that's like one mind shift you can apply and hopefully that helps 17 years of pre-sales is dope that's awesome congrats to mustafa lawrence says i'm new to pm but these tips these tips seem applicable to me um yeah do you think it's too much work for 1 pm to think uh about growth as well as a product yeah this is actually like so growth teams are more common at startups than they are at established companies obvious reasons which are that like when you're a startup you're way more uh like one of your top priorities is to like actually get people to use the product right uh so that's where i mean i say this as someone who worked at like different startups and like some quarters it was like we need to close this deal uh because like they're gonna be our biggest user base um and so usually it's like when it's growth uh at a startup it's like acquisition and activation um at early stage startups but yeah i think your question is more around like do you think it's too much work for one pm to think about growth as well as the product yeah i do think so um i've seen people try to do this uh i'm actually talking with someone right now and he's like founding a company and he's trying to hire a product manager to do all of it and it's just like at some point one like something has to give like you may be able to get um tons of new users for example but then your usability might suffer because the product manager is not focusing on that as a priority and if you distill it even more to like the core principles behind all of this stuff it's prioritization like then a day it's always about prioritization like there's no shortage of good ideas there's no shortage of opportunities all all that stuff right at some point something has to get prioritized and if you're the only person doing all of it then it's going to get really tricky to make sure that the product is really good and usable but then also that the growth is happening at a rate that your company is happy with so yeah that's a good question cool let me uh keep going here elias does the role of a growth pm vary depending on the stage of the company yep oh cool yeah we like just just answer that a little bit but yeah to elaborate a little bit more um i think that's why these like pirate type metrics i'm just gonna go to them are really it's a useful model because you can almost see where um you can almost see like the maturity of the company based on where they focus their attention so if you're brand new you built this product you need people to use it so it's like acquisition so that's where you know when like uber and lyft were first starting out uh they started there's like coupons everywhere right um all those like fast those food delivery companies it's like hey get like five meals for free because they just need you in the door like they need you like to be in the funnel whereas if you're a like a like a mid-stage startup and you have a user base and they're maybe getting a little bit fatigued of the products of their like features try to think of a good example here but i think i can't i'm thinking of facebook like in the early days but like people were just kind of bored i think for a little bit and then they launched news feed and then there it became a sticky product it was something like that but for them like for a middle stage company it's like retention becomes the goal because you're like all right we've proven like we've proven that we can get people using the product we've proven that like there's some value but they're not really staying it's like how do we do that so yeah definitely it definitely varies and then like when you work at a giant company like linkedin like like we're all focused on different parts of the funnel like you have entire teams for these different parts of the funnel so it's definitely different cool uh we'll do one more here uh shenzhen uh how do you evaluate whether the metrics are good yeah i mean that's like uh age-old question but it's like yeah you got to nail that it's got to be like it comes down to like in my opinion it comes down to one word which is value like is it actually capturing the value that you're delivering to the end user um or is it capturing some you know bogus thing in the middle so like is you know is dwell time on a page actually capturing the fact that people got what they wanted right um you see something like uh the latest google search improvement where like you'll search for something and then you uh click on the link and it has like all these all this text after url because it just drops you directly into a paragraph on the page right i don't know if you've seen that recently um but it's like let's be like uh good growth metric let's try this right so if you go to a page let's say this one right it'll like drop you of course the one the one time i try to do it in a demo but it'll like drop you directly into the actual page with all this text and it'll like drop into a paragraph or something right so for them if i see something like that it's like the metric seems to be how quickly can we get a search uh like a successful search uh so it's less about like spending more time on the page like like it's it's like uh getting the value as quick as possible to the user so uh yeah there's a little long-winded answer but i think the best way to evaluate whether the metrics are good or not are if the metrics actually measure true value that's being driven to the user cool uh awesome all right y'all i hope that was helpful and i do believe this is going to be posted so you can check it out again later thanks everybody uh for joining please feel free to add me on linkedin twitter all that good stuff uh you can find me andrewcu.com that's my website um all my like contact info is here and all that [Music] you