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You're a recruiter. Yes. And you work for recruitment teams to help them sell. Yes. Do business development. Most recruitment agencies struggle to prospect. Why is that? I run a business called Selr. io and we're a recruitment firm for sales teams, but we also train the sales teams after we place them. Well, let's start with what they're doing wrong. What are recruitment teams doing wrong? Recruitment teams are incredible at speed to market, but they haven't ever really learned discovery, because a lot of recruitment teams have never had that training. And this isn't everyone, but this is most. Very narrow minded. I'm going to find a job. I'm then going to find a candidate for that job. Submit the shortlist. And then, C. And then they walk away. Is that just asking questions? Talk me through it. I mean, yeah. Alright, talk me, talk me, talk me through where No, no, no, no, no. Who's asking versus what they should be asking. If you really look at discovery, yes. Theoretically, yes. It is asking questions. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that it's good. It's good discovery. Yeah. Discovery matched, like paired with the questions is a ton of research, like a ton of like emotion training, sitting in front of a customer and actually understanding them from like a psychological perspective. And then when it comes to recruitment, it's like, Oh, you need an account executive. Cool. Tell me more about this job requirement. What would you ask instead of that? Well, you need to get to know the buyer. All right. How'd you do that? Well, firstly, you cold call them. You understand exactly their personality. You understand, like, you do solid research on their background, their company, the hiring trends. If you can provide a company with knowledge of their competitors that they don't know about, you've just bought yourself five minutes of a cold call. So like, what would that look like? They've hired more people, or they've slowed down hiring, or No, it's more about, like, what tech they're using, like, what their pricing structures are. And I'm not saying go and release IP to these people's competitors, I mean, this is all public information, but you as a recruiter, like, have to be able to find, like, a really, really solid point of difference by Kind of looking under the rocks that your, uh, your prospects and your clients aren't looking under. And you do that. You gain information from candidates. Like you, you look at a candidate's profile, see the trends in their background, look at where they've worked before that, wherever they worked before that competitor. And then you go, okay, well, there's like a trend there. There's a pattern there and then leveraging those patterns to leverage more jobs. So if you were a new recruiter and you were starting to run, let's say a desk, where you were hiring engineers. Yeah. What would be your step to go out there and prospect in BD? I think the biggest issue with engineering recruitment is everyone just tries to get on every software engineering job wreck there is. But it's about really, really like niching down specifically in that area where even further into a sub niche, it's like you're looking at React in a specific area of the market. But it's then about figuring out exactly what it is. that a lot of the trends in market are seeing from this specific sub niche. And then over six months, like you've gained this like strong amount of specialty, strong amount of market knowledge that you know your competitors aren't. They don't have that knowledge base. And then you're using that knowledge in the business development to show your 100%. What kind of things would you, would you showcase to prove that out? Trends, patterns, um, your success rate in that area, but not the way that people think. A lot of people go like, they go, okay, well, like I've placed this amount of candidates at this amount of companies and stuff like that. You talk about things that the client actually cares about. One of the biggest issues that the clients or like, like companies have when they're engaging an outsource recruiter is they're like, well, they're going to stay for three months. They're out of guarantee. And you're going to walk away with a 20K fee. That's That's true. A lot of people are scared of that. Yeah. But it's about putting content into those cold emails or putting content into those cold calls and saying things like, everyone I've placed in the past 12 months, they're still in their roles. Everyone got past nine months. Contractors lasted their six month contract using data that they actually care about because think about all of the concerns that people have when engaging recruiters. Yep. And then you just leverage that in your outreach. You're kind of putting the objection before they even give you the objection. Yeah, it's like Eminem at the end of 8 Mile. Well, he rapped about all of the things. He was doing that like freestyle rap battle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was just like, I don't know why I didn't. Yeah, and he just, and he rapped about everything that he knew the other guy was going to say about him. And then it was just like Objection Handling 101. Marshall Mathers. Invoices in the mail. So your advice to a recruiter who has just got themselves a desk is to niche down to the point where you can observe like actual tactical insights that you can then gift your, your potential prospects. Yeah. One of the first questions any hiring manager will ask is like, who else have you worked with? What's your success rate? And if you can rattle off 10 companies, they're exactly like them within their industry, they're going to be like, all right, well. Do you know what? You're probably going to find me candidates quick and I'm happy to do an exclusive deal on this because you actually know what you're talking about. But you still get the objection for someone who doesn't, has never heard of them to say like, yo, we've got preferred recruitment lists, we've got preferred agencies, we don't work with recruiters, we've got a talent acquisition team. How are you handling that? Yeah, I mean at some point they're going to need you. They always need you at some point. Even if you're getting those no's, no's, no's. At some point, at some point they're going to need to hire and they don't have the talent in the pipeline. And I'm not saying go and spam them for six months. I'm just saying follow that client. Look different. Go through, like, diversify your outreach that you know with, like, with different candidate profiles and different content that you know that is actually going to be valuable to them, when most people don't do that. All right, so what would you do instead? You've got to create curiosity, Will. Yeah? Yeah. So tell me how you do that. Will would be something where if I know the client and I know that they've just hired a new engineering manager, um, and they're probably looking to build out their team, um, and I know that they, specialize like their coding languages is Python. Like there'd be a situation where if I had a candidate from their competitor, I would flat out say in a three sentence cold email, notice you just started at company a, what are your thoughts on hiring a team? And what if I could provide you a candidate from company B with five years experience in direct Python, that'd be interesting to you. That's. Literally all. It's as simple as that. People overcomplicate it and do these like massive write ups and it's like two, three hundred word emails and they just get straight in the trash. Because if you attach, even if it's a blank CV, if you attach, like you're taking, you're taking the mystery out of it. All you're trying to do is get a response. And I think that's where a lot of recruiters go wrong, is You're trying to close the deal. Trying to get the recruitment partnership signed right there and then. My college rugby coach, um, once told me, you're trying to score on every player, Hamish. And as soon as he told me that, it was a situation where, no, I have to go through phases. Yeah. And it's one of those things where you have to segment all of your steps in recruitment like you would in SASS. And then have a direct goal early on. And be like, okay, well The goal here is to get a response. The goal after that is to get a meeting. The goal after that is to get a job on because the problem with speed to market in recruitment currently, it's just everyone's is trying to close deals way too quickly and they're not building the relationship. They're just going straight for the meeting because, like, the client has a job break on at that point. But the problem is So, you mentioned you're reaching out to hiring managers. Yep. Do you ever prospect the HR talent teams? Yeah, sure. They tend to operate the P& L that, uh, that I'm looking for. Would your messaging to them change at all? Um, not necessarily. I think the key there is, like, if you're, especially in, like, tech, um, sales is a little bit easier to understand. Especially if it's tech, like, you simplify it a bit. Yeah. Because they, they don't have computer science degrees, most of the time. If you look on LinkedIn and be like, okay, is this head of HR actually a computer science major? Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, let's, let's throw some, some tech in there. Yeah. But at the same time, if you're really simplifying your messaging, like I'm saying, like I'm asking you to do, then yeah, it's a, it's a very similar, similar messaging. It's like you want them to ask you a question back. If you're giving too much information too quickly, then there's no curiosity and they don't have any questions for you. It's like, spill your candy at the front door. Last question for you, where might you start looking to lead? Especially if you're new to a space, you don't already have that pre built network of people that you've been following up with and building that, you know, credibility with from a A lot of people go to JobApple and they look through all the job ads. Is that what you'd recommend or would you say that's a waste of time? No, I don't think it's a waste of time, but that's where everyone looks. If you're a true specialist in your market and you've got that 100 client list, like you've got 100 clients where you know that in your specific niche and sub niche, and that's your, that's your list, that's your prospecting list. And you're going after that, you're multi threading that list. You do that over six months. That's going to be your source. Then you gain partnerships with these companies, and they know you're the go to recruiter for them. They've got 100 plus employees, the chances are that you're going to probably place their whole team. And then over two, three years, you've built such a client base that people are going to come back to you because they know you do good work. Probably refer you leads as well. And I, of course, like every recruiter under the sun, like the most simplest training they get is ad chase. But everyone else does that. So you want to be looking for things to help people onto it. You gotta be a point of difference, Will. What do you think about people first building personal brands on LinkedIn? I think everyone should create a personal brand. You reckon? Yeah, I honestly, like, I believe everyone should create a personal brand because one, you gain so much confidence. Oh my god, Will, so much confidence. Two years ago, three years ago, like, I would be shit scared to post anything on LinkedIn. Like, let alone a selfie or a video, oh my god, absolutely not. And like, man, like that in itself, like if you're struggling with confidence as a recruiter, start putting your emotion out there. Put some content out there on LinkedIn, just make sure it's emotional, actionable and relatable. Those three things, emotional, actionable and relatable. And if it is, people will respond. You'll get traction. Just don't sound like everyone else. A lot of recruiters constantly just go, these are the roles I'm working on and that's fine. But that's not personal branding. That's corporate branding. That's the equivalent of posting your company's blog on LinkedIn. Yeah. All my inbounds come from doing webinars, doing podcasts, writing on LinkedIn, just getting the timing right. Like I, I posted a written post about emotion, like emotional sellers and emotion, like leveraging emotion in your discovery. That post alone got me like three inbounds. Like it's just one of those things where you just got to know your audience and they'd be like genuine Don't talk about something that you don't understand about the Dunning Kruger effect created by Dunning and Kruger funnily enough two different guys I would've assumed it was one guy But it's created by two guys and whenever and the whole thing is you start up you get really confident in an area Like you read like like the crypto bros a few years ago crypto bros a few years ago like They'd read about crypto for like two days and then start posting about it on Twitter and stuff like that. And then because they talk to people who didn't know anything about crypto and they just assume that they're crypto professionals. Hmm. And all they're doing is they're sitting on top of a thing called Mount Stupid. Ha ha ha. Well, you know a little bit but you feel like you know everything. Yeah. And then all it takes is an actual professional in said crypto to actually poke holes in some of the things they're saying. And then they fall into something called the Valley of Despair. So if someone's not. that experience, then surely they won't have that much to talk about because they won't be competent. I'm saying that I'm all for people to post on LinkedIn about anything. I'm just saying when you're posting on LinkedIn, just know that if you're making really, really strong. assumptions in your content and you don't have like a really strong level of, of industry knowledge or specialist knowledge in that area. Then over time, there's a high chance that people are going to poke holes in it. You'll lose credibility. So it's that being a thing about being genuine. Also being honest in your own ability and posting about things you actually know a lot about so that in turn, you get more business. So, do build a personal brand, just don't go out there and pretend you're the world's most experienced, you know, data science recruiter when it's your first month in the job. But, share your learnings along the way, the things that you have experienced and your emotions, maybe what you're learning as well along the way. If you've got knowledge to share, share it. Really share it. Just make sure it's emotional, actionable, and relatable. Qualified. All right, thank you so much. Give me a hug. I was trying to give you a hug. Quality share.