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building an email list is not just about numbers it's your organization's Lifeline to connecting with supporters and securing donations so how can your organization effectively expand its email list to enhance impact and ensure long-term sustainability I'm Josh with antidote and welcome to nonprofit pulse where we explore Trends insights and resources and help nonprofits accomplish their mission on this episode we're joined by Jess Campbell on the topic of email marketing for nonprofits Jess is the founder of out in the boons where she helps nonprofits discover donors in their email list she's been a nonprofit fundraiser for 18 years and has raised over $17 million working from New York to California organizations big and small hey Jess welcome to nonprofit polls hi Josh thanks for having me I'm so excited for today's episode we're talking about email fundraising which I know a lot of nonprofits struggle um to grow their email list and then the on growing you know how to maintain it um best practices Trends we're going to get into all of that today so maybe first just starting out will you share some of the current trends that you're seeing in email fundraising right now um what new approaches or or tools out there that nonprofit should be looking into for sure well again thanks for having me talk about my favorite topic on the planet um I think that email is having a real moment so as far as the trend goes I mean I wouldn't call email a trend because it's just Everlasting um but I feel like with the constant updates to our social platforms Instagram being down every other day Twitter getting a new name like even LinkedIn which has been a very powerful tool for me um you know some days you hit it and some days you get little to no engagement where email consistently remains to be the most powerful marketing tool that I use in my business as well as I deploy for my clients and so as far as trends go I'm like just be emailing like prioritize email that is more than a trend that should be like a lifestyle I love that yeah and and speaking of list and list building engagement you know nonprofit email list is is huge um for many reasons one of which you just mentioned uh platform performance it's kind of Hit or Miss yes struggle on certain channels but with your email list you own that list um you're not constrained by any of the algorithm updates of Google for organic search or or any of the platforms um you know all the for you Pages across the platforms with your email list you have the opportunity to reach out at any time you want say anything you need to say um and and measure that and understand what the relationship is between you and your audience in a much deeper way so let's talk about growing the list um you know do you have any advice on how not to only grow the list but also keeping your uh your audience engaged you know that means open rates that means um you know click throughs open rates also clicking through your resources or your links as well as any follow-up so that was a lot of things in one but let's uh let's just unack them in kind of a in a metal way so yeah just growing your list and and increasing engagement what would you say yeah so I would say that for everyone listening there's a lot of pressure I feel out there from whether it's leadership teams boards or just our external competition to have this really big list 100,000 two like these massive lists right and I always say I would rather have an Engaged list over a large list every day of the week and that takes work that takes a lot of consistency a lot of providing value and we can talk about content in a bit but I would just say that if you're just starting with email marketing I would prioritize getting your first 1,000 subscribers so that you can really test and have proper data to make strategic decisions it's it's difficult to do that with less than 1,000 people um so it first say do what you can to get to a thousand and we can talk about some ways to grow your list but then as far as engagement goes that's an ongoing process where um I recommend scrubbing your list I know nonprofit in general work so hard to acquire names and emails and donors and all the things and so the idea of actively removing those people can feel quite scary but the thing is is if you're sending consistent valuable emails on a regular basis and people haven't opened anything from you and 12 18 24 months the likelihood that they are going to is unlikely and frankly there just bringing down all of your data and making you make ill-informed data decisions right because you have this kind of stale list and that actually happened with a ton of my clients at the end of the 2023 giving season I ran probably around I think it was eight end of year campaigns email was a big part of it and I was like why is this such a SLO this is like we all made it but it was painful to get to the finish line for across everyone and so I was thinking what was different this year and I think what happened is a lot of these organizations made huge Acquisitions of donors and email subscribers in 2020 2021 maybe even a little of 2022 but they maybe did or did not put in the work to retain these folks or keep them engaged and so what they have now is this larger list but with unengaged people and so while we were basing our data decisions and making math decisions based on our numbers they were actually incorrect because we were working with stale list so I would say the first step and I recommend doing it anywhere from two to four times a year is scrub your list I'm a bit more uh radical I do it like if you haven't opened any of my email s for 90 120 days I put you through a sequence and I invite you to stay but I also wish you well if you want to go that might be a bit too aggressive for a nonprofit I would say if you're a nonprofit anywhere between 12 and 24 months and no one's opened your email you too should put them through you know three or four part sequence to try and get them engaged and if not then you can say you know farewell and goodbye they can always come back so that's what I'd say about engagement um as far as list building goes I joke all the time that the you know I have like a master's degree I've spent a lot of money on my brain and the two hardest things I've ever done are teach my kid how to poop in the potty and grow an email list like it is hard and it's only getting more difficult because the user the subscriber is more savvy than ever you know back in 2020 people were giving out their email to download a freeb or whatever left right and center and now people are way more cautious so you have to be really thoughtful and invite them to join in exchange for something valuable valuable is relative so you have to do a little brainstorm about what that means for your potential subscriber or your subscriber um but there's kind of uh a hierarchy if you will about list growing because you know something are definitely more advanced and I don't expect someone that decides to get started with email marketing today to do you know the automations and the workflows and the Pinterest and all these complicated things on day one um I would say if you're really starting on day one send out an email to 40 50 60 people and make your case for why your email list and your newsletter for your nonprofit is the place to be and what information are they going to get what's different in that channel that's different from your social how often are they going to receive communication um I like to provide my best and first content access through my email list I reward people for being on my email list and so they get the best discounts they get the first um opportunity to join they get more stories they get more consistency all of that is through my email list and then my social channels are the next tier so if you're all in on email I would say just start with an invitation to your ideal subscriber for like your first 40 50 people right you're trying to grow from your next let's say 100 to 1,000 subscriber and above um I think some great list building activities things that I do are or I do for my clients is do a teaser post on let's call it Monday if I send my emails on Tuesday mornings I will preview what is to come in that email on a Monday so for example I have um this email coming out where I'm going to be teaching um don't be an a good Be an Effective writer because and it's all about like throwing out everything you learned in high school English and doing what's actually effective when it comes to conversion copywriting and acquiring donors and all the things and so I'll probably give tip one in that post but I'll say something like if you want you know tip three four and five or whatever sign up for my newsletter list and you'll get it delivered tomorrow and I would say on a weekly basis for me that usually gets me anywhere from like 15 to 25 new subscribers just right there so if you do that every single Monday for a month you know that's roughly 100 new subscribers so that's one thing you can do another thing that um I recommend folks doing as far as list building goes is putting something of value together that people would want to get in exchange for their email list so one of my clients right now is the Chamber of mothers um they are advocating for Paid Family Leave maternal health and affordable child care and we just put together this rage Spotify playlist and we've been marketing it as like if you know if you're a mom who wants to sit in the car alone if you're a mom who really needs to go on a run if you're a mom that feels like screaming into a pillow like put on this rage playlist and jam out that's kind of like the the vibe of what we're doing and it's simple it's like 50 songs it's on Spotify which is free it's super duper easy but to get the playlist you have to give us our email and that allows us to do two things acquire new email subscribers but also segment those people on the back end so we know okay these are the type of people we know where they came from what they're interested in all the things right and so that's another way to go from anywhere from hundreds if not thousands of people um so freebie and then the last thing thing I'll suggest which is a bit more advanced is to partner and collaborate so let's say for example you're a in the Animal Welfare space and your dog rescue can you partner up with two or three other animal rescues who you each probably have your little niche or specialty right and let's say in my dog rescue I can put a tutorial on how to teach your rescue dog how to walk on a leash but the other dog rescue put a a a recipe together on how to make your food from scratch and then the other dog rescue can you know teach you how to sit shake and roll over or something I don't know whatever people who I I have a rescue dog so I'm like all of these things would be interesting to me but what if you all partnered and bundled together and then you all shared that with your individual list and then you all shared the email list that came together it's kind of like that spiderweb effect right and all of your subscribers across all three lists are getting something super valuable and you are also attracting your ideal donor audience one thing I get pushed back on quite a bit is like but just like if we're going to partner up with two other dog rescues isn't that our competition like isn't aren't they going to go donate to these other ones instead of us and I really challenge anyone who's thinking that way to um really work on their money mindset their scarcity mindset because personally the older I get the narrower I get with my full anthropy so I actually almost exclusively give to organizations that are in some way shape or form supporting mothers single mothers single black mothers um I was raised by a single mom I am a mom I have in some ways been on both sides of the motherhood um Spectrum as far as being resourced and underresourced and so it's what I'm passionate about and so I give across the board almost exclusively to organizations that do that versus me being spread out around you know regenerative food or you know like sure all the things and so it's actually better for organizations to partner and collaborate and put in my peripheral because that's the place I want to go deeper on I would just say that because like I've gotten that a little bit before where people are like wait I don't want them to have my donors on their email list or whatever I'm like no that's not the way to think about it yes differentiate don't compete I think a lot of nonprofits struggle to even have that conversation because of the aversion of of uh thinking about everyone as competition when really the opportunity is to differentiate and and and whether you're a a golden uh Retriever Rescue or your you know another type of a cat rescue or only a certain type of cats or you know etc etc lean into that differentiation and then people will support uh typically multiple of the same type of orgs yeah but they at least know how the impact uh or what impact your nonprofit is having that is different than the other one where they see okay I should support these two ORS this one's doing this this other one's doing doing this I care for both and I want to support both so let's lean into the uh content for uh fundraising emails in particular and thinking about what moves the needle when it comes to um soliciting donations via email um are you seeing any type of content out there that's performing better um any type of positioning around programs or initiatives that helps to convert better um understanding that this in the nonprofit world we we're not all about just conversions and draining um dollars from our donors but really casting a vision of of the impact that that can be achieved through these through these dollars so that said what content are you seeing that's really moving the needle as far as okay I definitely want to donate to that I'm going to start with what doesn't work first what doesn't work is you on a random one ednesday sending off some random email that asks for money that just doesn't work I teach what's called a warm-up phase which is generally two four six weeks of um preparing your donors to open quick and reply we don't really want and neither do I ever expect a donor to click for the very first time on a donate button like anything we have to build habits and so we want our donors our subscribers our readers to get in the habit of not only opening but reading and clicking off the page and so that requires some Advanced planning so let's say you are an organization that helps veterans return um back home and you provide anything from like Health Care to Employment Services to Mental Health Services right right but you're about to run a campaign all around employment you know this entrepreneurship program I would not spend my four or six weeks leading up to this campaign talking about Mental Health Services that doesn't mean it's not important but if you're out here talking about the other two parts of your program and then you kind of turn and you're like but supporter entrepreneurship program people are like wait what like what do they like H versus you Preparing People along the way where you're talking about veteran you know veteran Tim who started his ice cream selling business versus um you know Maria who um you know is a real estate agent or whatever the things are if you told those individual stories along the way and then you made a case for why supporting the entrepreneurship program makes sense people are like oh obviously oh duh of course I'm going to support this so you got to really prepare you got to warm people up along the way okay before you make an ask the anatomy of an Ask email is get your pen and paper out this is it it is personalization so high first name dear first name howdy first name it really makes no one feel seen when you're like hey friend hi supporter um if that's all you have that's all you have but yeah use the name um I also do sometimes what's called um a cold open I've been teaching this a bit more I learned it from this amazing copywriter named Ann Handley she's not who invented it but she's who brought it to my attention and it's what they do for like Saturday Night Live and a lot of sitcoms it's basically when they just like drop you in so instead of it being like hey how are you so on last Tuesday I was like and you're just like blah blah blah blah blah blah blah um this is a cold open I actually recently wrote in an email um my opening line was it's 2 am and there's poop everywhere it's like boom you just drop someone in and someone's like what and like I got to read more and da d da so doing a cold open in any kind of email whether it's an ask or not is really powerful and I really challenge organizations to just like plop people in get right to the meet the other thing I'll say is stories are really powerful long stories I think people are like oh I can't write a long email it can't be to this or to that it's actually like no those again and again have been tested there's a resource called next after they do experiments constantly constantly they show that long form email works but it needs to be singular so one story about one thing with one call to action we're not putting in our emails but also you can volunteer and also share this email and also we've got this event it's like no if you want people to donate make your email about donating um you also need several links um neon one is a CRM platform they put out a really great report on email marketing for nonprofits in 2023 and they assessed out of Millions milons of sends how many links work best I think the number is six so it's hyperlink it's in buttons it's in PS sentences it's many many many links throughout but they all go to the same place right um so I would say those are kind of the biggies for an Ask email got to get it open though so you want to have a really kind of um curiosity sparking I would even use the word sex subject line um my friend Jam Canon he runs an organization called The Block in Chicago it's this boxing program after school boxing program and he had the best appeal email I I have it in a safe folder I send it out everywhere I did not write it but his subject line was he almost quit and you're like well who's he and what did he almost quit it's like I have to open this email to find out right and then his email was simple there was no images it was a story with a red donate button and other links there I don't even know if he had a PS sentence I would always recommend a PS sentence but it was really strong and so if you're an organization that thinks it's a lot of work to build an email because of all the images and the graphics I'm telling you now to scrap them they do not work as effectively as a text based storytelling single call to action email and and um keep it clean like forget what you learned in your high school English class as far as following paragraphs you want your words to breathe so you want to like leave spaces you don't want anything too thick and you have to remember people are reading on their phones a lot of times so they to doing this like heavy thumb scroll to get to the point um you're going to miss an opportunity to get people to actually make the donation the last thing I'll say about appeals um before we move on maybe is you need to send probably double if not triple the amount of emails you think you need to send so I have so many organizations that come to me and they're like we're going to send you know it's the end of the year and they want to send like two or three emails I'm like you need to send two or three emails on the last day like yes more emails and for anyone who's really worried about overwhelming their list one you can do two things you can stop looking at your unsubscribed and stop caring about what everyone else is thinking because we're trying to be effective not people pleasing so there's a mentality thing right but I also actually really um respect and respond to people who do permission based fundraising and so it's totally appropriate and okay if you want to include a link that says like not interested in this campaign right now click right here and you can remove them from the segment and people can actively opt out the other thing is once someone makes a donation you need to stop asking them for money so you need to remove them from your kind of massive main list um and they need to get a different set of emails because nothing makes a donor feel unseen as them making a gift to your organization and then they get that next giving Tuesday Emil or whatever yeah can you share more on how many lists generally speaking a nonprofit should be maintaining and building you know from those who are outside of of the donor relationship to to those who are to um longtime supporters I mean there's many ways to go about it but what do you coach your clients on as far as segment segmenting out list and building this yeah I think that this can be a very slippery slope so I think that maybe this is a little hot take but if the segmentation part is what's holding you back from emailing your list stop sweating the segmentation like it's more important for you to send the email that being said the savier and the more advanced you get I think having segments related to donors versus non-donors or lapsed donors versus current donors or recurring donors versus onetime gifts or volunteers and board members I mean that's what I mean like you could go Hog Wild with segmentation and if if the perfectionism of not having that in place is what's holding you back like just send the email to everyone like it's fine um as far as what you say to people you know like I think it is important to be mindful so if you just ran a campaign and you're trying to send a gratitude email are you sending that to your entire list or are you just sending that to the people that made a gift right I think you should just send it to the people that made a gift versus uh here's what was achieved kind of congratulatory that like everyone can be involved in [Music] um that being said I just I wouldn't let anyone be held back around segmentation because 100% of the nonprofits that come to me are not sending enough emails period so it's more about getting out there doing it growing your list once you have U once you start to see some complexity around your audience then discuss segmenting uh build out your strategy of how you're going to segment and grow each of these different LS yeah I mean I would it's always going to be easier to do it from the get-go right so if you have a system that allows you to segment or tag or whatever they call it like identify find those people early on is going to be way easier than like retroactive work but I'm just saying that like if it's the difference of you not sending the email because you can't say hey current donor versus hey lap Doner like just send the one email you know what I mean just done is better than perfect I would say in this situation this podcast is brought to you by antidote with more than 13 years of serving nonprofits churches Ministries campaigns and schools antidote has processed billions of dollars in donations that experience has guided Us in building tools that save your organization time and money join more than 30,000 organizations and increase giving today learn more at an adot.com aed.com antidote save time and money with powerful giving tools so I want to talk about measuring success and what that looks like as far as metrics you know what metrics do you advise your clients to to watch to Monitor and and then also how can they use those uh for insights to to better inform their their email strategy overall okay so a couple things that I pay attention to um there are there is the measurement of open rate but it's dicey especially since the iOS update of 2021 uh it's basically like a false number so while you are going to look at it it's not the be all end allll what in my opinion is a way more important metric to follow is your clickthrough rate as well as your reply rate which is people actually hitting reply and answering question you prompt them to ask people actually don't know this but your email um deliverability is like a muscle and it takes time to build strength so if you are showing up in spam boxes or people are marking you a Spam um you're going to get deemed where if people are replying to your emails you're going to get stronger and so I don't do it in every email but occasionally in a client's email I'll say something like um choose A B C or D hit reply and let me know is your answer or I'll say I'll ask kind of a question and I'll ask people to reply and that will prompt people to actually do that um some other things that I think people should pay attention to are their email list growth rate like how many people are coming to your list week over week over week one because I can sense that it feels like a slow and steady race and it's one of those things that if you keep track of and you look week to week it doesn't feel that big but you look back months later and you're like oh my gosh we actually have like 300 new people on our list cool can we do something for these people like it provides a conversation um other things that I would pay attention to are um or excuse me that I would not pay attention to deeply is your unsubscribe rate um that being said if you have an anomaly like you have a week where like it's just 10 times higher than average that actually could be a really good thing for example for me and my list there's been moments where I have talked about women's rights or I've talked about values that are important to me and not everyone agrees and guess what I think it's amazing that they self unsubscribe for my list because they're not who I want they're anyways um I actually think that nonprofits in general could do a much better job of having an opinion on things and they're afraid to do that because they're afraid to push people away but actually what it's really going to do is attract people the right people first and so it might clear off a good number of people that you don't want there anyways and it will attract the right people from the get-go um so I would say those are the top measurements some other measurements that you can um look at are your conversion rates like if it's a a fundraising email how many people are clicking and then what resulted in actual donation because you might have to do some tweaking to your donation page for example if people are clicking but somewhere along the donation process they're dropping off um that's an important thing to look at as well love that and kind of moving out of the um the theory or the Practical side and moving into a real example you know if could you share an example of a nonprofit that that you've worked with that's just had remarkable results from um email marketing email fundraising efforts and you know what strategies strategies did they use to really win in that email campaign yes um I mean right now I'll just go back to chamber of mothers so they're a young organization they're like less than three years old and they have a massive social following massive like thousands and thousands of people and their email list comparatively is quite small and you know they're all volunteers they're this amazing group of very smart and talented women but they have no background in fundraising and so they just started where they started which was mostly on Instagram and while they've gotten a lot of awareness you know awareness doesn't pay the expenses of running a nonprofit and the ultimate goal is to bring on staff members and so through bringing me on um we've been growing their list which is amazing but we've in the last 12 months ran both A Mother's Day campaign and an end of year campaign and I think one of the things that has been so um Illuminating for them is how literally every time we send an email we get donations period and it's just nothing that you can compare on social and they've been able to meet their goals and what's really cool is um two things one people use email like a to-do list where I describe social is kind of like a freeway like cars are just driving by and like maybe they get off here maybe they get off there but email I mean think about how you use your email like I use my person whether we're supposed to or not I do and so I save my action items for that and so if I don't get triggered in my email it's probably not getting done and so sending more emails even when it feels uncomfortable has been a really powerful tool for them but what's also been really cool this happened during their endof Year campaign is uh major gift donors actually would present themselves and they were like you know I started seeing you in my inbox more I started getting more communication from you and you know unfortunately on social they were posting a lot as well but if only 3 to 5% of your audience sees your post anyways like you're likely missing it where in your inbox everyone's going to get it and so it did this really kind of cool wraparound effect of bringing in people who were kind of like Loosely aware to being now acutely aware of both the problem and the solution they could provide by providing a don donation um and so now that they've kind of seen the power of email it's like now we're going all in so uh we have these big goals and big strategies that involved everything from like Pinterest and driving traffic and using all sorts of different um acquisition tools but it's just been really cool to see in a short period of Time how your organization can raise hundreds of thousands of dollars um through email yeah and it makes sense right if you think about how we consume social media versus how we um relate to our inbox you know I can't think of a Time recently where I saw a product on my Twitter or Facebook or LinkedIn feed and and clicked on it and bought it but I can think of many times where I was on a list or a certain type of product uh or a brand and I saw it and said take my money let's do this and yeah I love that that language of action items that really is what email is for so many folks um and you know if you're if they've subscribed to your list there's a relationship there they are receiving value they want to know what you have to say whether that's impact reports whether that's here's new things we're doing or even here's current needs right they they want to know what's going on and being able to communicate those things um in a real human way that that helps them in some way uh and again it doesn't have to be you know helping them in a transactional way it can just be keeping them updated on this thing that happened last quarter that there wasn't an update on and say hey um we thought you might want to know if you remember last quarter this happened it was a disaster or it was a real challenge but now we've got the funding or now we've got the leader to handle that the volunteer to handle that those things um are like water in an oasis to people's inboxes where they've got all sorts of spam uh solicitations those things are so real and human and bring people into your story um in just such a significant way yeah I mean one thing I I love everything you said like double tap underscore circle with the red pen two things I want to say just like to follow up is one thing that I tell tell my students quite a lot is you are not your subscriber and because I get people saying like well if I send a lot of emails I'm going to come across this spam me and like my inbox is over full like I don't want one more email and the thing that I want to say is everything that I teach is based on data so if the data said that social or events or any of these other things were super effective I would probably be teaching you to do those things but it doesn't it says that emails work and and so I really want people to step back and follow the data versus like follow your feelings because you are not your subscriber and maybe you don't like a full inbox but you probably still get that email from Target every day are you unsubscribing from that and the truth is is whether you like it or not like that's what users are comparing you to as far as familiarity I used to joke before they went bankrupt rest in peace Bed Bath and Beyond but like I used to get multiple emails from them every single day because who knows maybe maybe one day I would like actually walk into a store and use their 20% off coupon like never ever happened but maybe did I ever unsubscribe from those emails not once and so when they ran a sale or whatever and they're sending me six emails a day I just didn't open them I wasn't like unsubscribing um and so if you're only sending one email a month and now it's time for you to ask for money and you're sending like 10 emails in a month people are going to be like wait who is this like why are they showing in my inbox and why are they asking me for money unsubscribe versus them being really familiar the other thing I just want to say real quick I think email fundraising can absolutely 100% without a doubt replace event fundraising and I know from experience how much time and how much money all you nonprofits listening spend producing events and the net profits of those events are sometimes minimal and if you have the ability to put a really strategic thoughtful campaign that you send through email and maybe like a hard copy piece of mail or something and you can raise this same amount of money it's like why are we doing this to ourselves why why are we putting ourselves to that event fundraising cycle and we can just like run a campaign um so there's a lot of opportunity um for everyone well especially especially too if you think about the the resourcing of that event and what what you could do over two years of taking those two years of event funds um and applied it to a uh a new email strategy new email resource whether it's a part-time worker whether that's a fractional where they they hire you Jess you know just just taking that you know using next after language right that those experiments let's experiment you know we've done this event for 12 years in a row let's let's back let's back up let's not do it this year and let's take those funds and lean into a sustainable email marketing email fundraising campaign um it's just see what happens yeah absolutely 100% I will die on that Hill awesome awesome so getting towards the end here Jess any fundraising resources that you would recommend to our audience okay a couple of fundraising resources especially when it comes to email I mentioned next after I really do feel like their library of experiments is like candy to me I I geek out on it if you geek out on that kind of thing um that's a great resource the neon one email report is also really helpful um um and then I would be remissed if I didn't mention my own things so uh out in the boons we actually have um two really helpful tools for folks who are interested in email marketing if you go to the fundraising templat shop.com we actually have Fillin the blank templates and template sets where you can get a nine-part spring campaign fill in the blanks schedule and send easy peasy lemon squeezy we also have a fundraising template membership so for $11 a month you get a Monday drop every single week which features a new type of email for your organization some weeks it's like a podcast pitching email uh we did an Earth Day template recently we are doing a pre campaign um launch email we do campaigns and appeals and upgrades and ask for monthly donors we do all sorts of so that's $11 a month it's less than $3 a template it's kind of a no-brainer and you can find that at the fundraising templat shot.com um and for anyone who's just maybe thinking about what's missing for my nonprofits like how can I improve it if you go to out inthe boo. me quiz we've got this 90c quiz that's pretty fun to take awesome and as always you can find those resources listed in the show notes uh for this episode and now for our last question Jess my favorite question of every episode uh where uh where our guests have to be piffy and provide uh Clarity after we've unpacked all these things if you are standing on stage in front of a thousand nonprofit leaders what is one sence one thing you would say uh to them about email marketing email fundraising send more emails period love it love it this is a huge topic with uh so much to explore and we really just kind of scratched the surface and and dived uh a little bit here and there but U check out the show notes for all those resources J mentioned and Jess thanks so much for coming on the podcast and sharing today thanks for having me hey thanks for listening if you enjoyed this conversation please share or leave us a rating interview wherever you listen to podcast also head on over to nonprofit pulse.com to sign up for our monthly newsletter as well as check out all the links and resources in the show notes we'll see you next time