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the content that you'll see today on customer relationship management is a preview for our next in-person workshop that we will again talk about at the very end of the of the webinar which is going to take place from june 5th to 7th in nairobi kenya it'll be a two and a half day workshop on customer relationship management and we are very very fortunate to have partnered with sandy vasi from currently in hungary right now who is um going to be facilitating that event sandy um has been partnering with us for the past i guess six to eight months to really build out our customer relationship management for small business banking modules he's done several different elements there one of which you'll see a very short preview today on the crm aspect but he's also an expert in sales some marketing sales management uh in in banking and he can give you a little more of his uh broad background in the on the ground institutions that he's worked with um and we're very happy that he will be leading our training in nairobi in june which will be that two and a half day training on customer relationship management for small business banking um so without any further ado i will hand it over to sandy to lead us through this webinar thank you great elizabeth thank you very much um everybody welcome uh i i appreciate your joining us and and by the the introductions i i noticed that there are a lot of good professionals here so at the end of uh i don't know maybe a half an hour when i kind of quickly walk through this webinar you will either say oh wow yeah i guess uh this makes sense you will say no no no no no we know much better and in either case please speak up uh as as a personal introduction for myself uh my background in pure numbers covers about 30 years executive employment on four continents and 50 countries i i have a very checkered background as elizabeth kind of referred to i started in uh packaged goods or fmcg for those of us who speak brit talk uh with procter and gamble went into banking uh this was all in north america i went into banking canadian imperial bank of commerce royal bank of canada went back into packaged goods uh nielsen category uh international business development from there i joined citibank and uh my first big exposure to crm was as a head of crm for citibank for the emea region which which covered 26 countries europe middle east asia parts of africa then i went on to build uh some banks for a regional central european bank called wi-fi zen went back to canada got dragged back to uh to europe by royal bank of scotland then we all know what happened to that bank so um uh as they were going bankrupt i left and since then i've been uh using my time and allocating it among different activities advising different clients uh teaching at a couple of universities and and helping companies like the small business banking network that is for a personal uh background and introduction and let's carry on and let's start talking about crm because i think that's why we are here i'm seeing that there are funny things happening on the screen but i hope everybody is seeing everything so um so let's get into it what we will cover um now let me see if this will work if i can go down a slide which would be really lovely yes what we will cover so um this is this is a really really kind of high level uh review of of crm and crm for uh for banks in uh small business banking so we talk a little bit about definition and components uh and then uh about nailing down the benefits because every time we want to do something we have to have to justify spending money and time on it so it would be good to uh to review that the alignments needed internally and then i give it really a flavor for implementation steps and then at the end as it is noted we'll uh leave you with some basic diagnostics uh uh questions and and templates to help you uh your thinking a little bit further on so having said that let's um let's get into it why crm for small businesses and for banks um well the the i listed up a few points here the first one is what i call funny mathematics um i always tell people that you know um doing doing crm when you look at both the personal and business holdings of say sme owners is is a is a really bizarre math because normally in mathematics we say one plus one equals two well in this case when we are doing uh good crm uh targeting small businesses uh one plus one equals three point two and where it comes from is uh and this is based on a lot of working experience that when we get both the personal and the business holdings of sme owners uh we tend to get a 60 boost in our profitability uh in our in our banks so one plus one is two plus we had 60 percent to that which is another other 1.2 so we get 3.2 and that is nothing to laugh at so that's that's a very good business reason right off the bat to do uh to do crm and do it right now we also have a lot of relationships and um i don't know uh how your banks and businesses are but when i talk to banks around the world uh a lot of them are saying you know we we know we got some relationships and normally banks focus on the credit needs of smes but there are a lot of other needs that can be exploited and with a good crm setup customer relationship management taking an overall view of our relationships we can do that we also need to make sure that we deliver our offers consistently across all channels and i know some of some people are saying look you know i mean working in developing markets we just we just got to get the basics right but you know what developing markets are developing very very very fast and i've seen tremendous change and we need to be ahead of the curve so we need to make sure that everything is delivered really consistently and we cannot afford uh customers coming in and talking to our phone center and talking to our sales representatives and getting different answers now building on that further i remember uh last time i was in johannesburg there was a lady a small medium enterprise entrepreneur who gave a very moving account of her engagement with one of the banks and how things almost fell apart when her banking advisor was away and she ran into some difficulties with the business uh and this is some of the things that we can avoid again with the crm setup because there should be no business disruption if a bank advisor is away there should be a seamless relationship and relationship management with all our key customers the next one is in in terms of customers think about it we get uh maybe a micro enterprise it's it goes into a small enterprise it grows into a medium enterprise if we cannot grow with the customer sooner or later we are going to lose them so this need to grow with the customers especially in a fast-moving segment like sme is really really essential so having said that i hopefully um if anybody has not yet been converted uh why we need crm i am starting to convert you uh so let's kind of take a deep dive and take a look at the crm essentials and assault potential implementation issues and with that one the first question is what is crm and with crm there are all sorts of definitions there are the definitions of say gurus there are the definitions of uh uh marketing people definitions of i.t people all sorts of different definitions going around um and it's it's very important to keep in mind what crm is and is not what crm really is is is actually optimizing all the processes of an organization or let's talk about our bank to maximize the profit per customer profit per prospect and at the same time improving uh service quality and making the life of our staff easier it will therefore link all the different processes together it will it will operationalize them and it will create an optimal full cycle of managing our interaction with with our with our customers and prospects it is not a standalone item like a salesforce automation system or similar it is not a technology platform and it is very importantly not simply an automation of existing processes because the whole idea is that we need to optimize the processes first before we operationalize them and it is certainly not something that is defined by gurus or or management it needs to be defined from a business perspective and uh i always tell everybody that i have very small brain i do not believe in complexity so when gurus give me very very tall tales about crm my eyes cloud over and i like to keep it close to ground level so if we don't take the uh the idea of crm as kind of optimizing all our processes in terms of interacting with our potential and current clients uh and doing it in such a way that it will make the life of our staff easier and it will improve service quality and at the same time create extra profit for us then let's uh let's take a look at some of the uh the crm components because really you know when when we look at crm it all goes back and and normally i talk about the corner store approach when uh back many years ago and in many markets still somebody working at the corner store would know their customers and you know their needs uh would be able to serve them who know when somebody is going away on vacation when the store owner goes away on vacation they they leave instructions for whoever is is filling in for them so there is a lot of good common sense practices that crm actually tries to recreate and when we talk about things like institutional memory and and full view and 360 view of personal and business stuff and analytical capabilities this all goes back to where it started which is a close intimate understanding of the needs of our customers and prospects so institutional memory is basically a history of the context behavior holdings all the issues everything that relate to our customers the full view means that we actually understand what our clients have with us what their businesses have with us what their families have with us so we can actually look at them in in entirety instead of looking at them in silos and maybe considering their their deposit accounts and or their credit holdings and separating out the business buildings from the person etc etc when we do a full view it it creates a very rich source of opportunities for us and let's not forget every time when we are talking about making extra profit for us it is because we are serving the needs of our customers better so there is absolutely nothing wrong in my books about making extra money making extra profit if it relies on serving the needs of our customers better that is what the business setup is all about now identical information at all contact points and scripts for each event just simply means that wherever anybody comes into contact with us we have the same information we are not giving them the runaround and we can also take advantage of these opportunities so scripts are available next sales opportunities are available and proactive and reactive best practices kind of belongs to that cross-cell upsell retention whatever it takes analytical capabilities geared to actions and gear to actions is very very important you know there's analytics at procter gamble we used to call it uh paralysis by analysis when we analyze things to the nth degree so i always emphasize analytical capabilities but focused on actions so we need to analyze things with an eye towards building the business and serving the needs of our customers better so we do we we planning plans we do what if planning we do all those kind of things and key information at any any level means that the essential business information is available and we have a certain structure to mining the information and giving key people in the organization access to that so if you take these as the kind of key components of crm and really when you think about the corner store owner uh that guy is doing all these things now what what happened is that over time um a lot of this got lost although i'm trying to get yeah here's the next slide from history to today so it was very easy when many years ago um people actually knew their customers but what happened is as businesses developed and as banks are growing bigger we have more customers we have more channels and guess what if your bank is is anything like the banks where i work then you do have very high staff turnover especially at the front line so a lot of knowledge and understanding of the customers walks out the door every year my rule of thumb is that normally the banks for i've worked we experienced about 15 to 20 percent frontline turnover so imagine within five years all the information i have about my customers i'm losing unless i do something about it and that's what the crm system partly should do so predictive modeling uh and database marketing came in a lot of that was driven by credit risk management that banks needed to do and then companies realize that oh there is good payback in this in business to business marketing and sales so out of this combination evolved crm and crm really what is trying to do is again recreating that early customer intimacy so we are using technology to make up for complexity and uh and high staff turnover and the uh the plethora of of channels and and and high number of customers and some people say well this could be a very sinister development because guess what you know at the end of the day if i'm modeling my customers and and i'm taking advantage of their behavior to build a profitability for myself that's not very nice but again i go back if i do my business if i do my activities right then everything is always based on serving the needs of my customers better so there's absolutely nothing sinister about it and i truly believe that that is really the right way to go if i sell more sales is always a higher level of service so uh if i use crm to drive my sales then i am actually improving my my service quality now um how do we go about quantifying the benefits of crm because every time we want to do something we actually need to get the resources to implement it and no management in his right mind would actually give us the money and the time to build something unless they say okay they can see that they are getting the payback on that well here's the thing in my experience in all the markets where i worked i found that about two-thirds of the overall benefits uh can be quantified and and can be defined and about one-third comes in from so-called non-quantifiable areas and the two-thirds of the benefits in the banking sector uh can be quantified as uh say at least ten percent over annual sales uh normally coming in over the first three years from improved cross-selling and improved acquisitions and that improved retention and an extra two percent of the portfolio retained um most of the the benefits will be realized over the first three years uh it's a sharp uptake and then the the growth will slow uh to about half of its initial pace but it will still carry on the um a lot of the work that went into this definition i actually personally didn't i can i can tell you now this was done for citibank when we were planning crm implementation across 26 countries and these countries included developing markets evolved markets uh everywhere from uh from europe all the way to asia down to africa and and over and over again we found that that these benefits we could quantify now the way we need to we we can quantify these benefits is using a simple approach called process mapping um process mapping uh is basically taking a look at all our processes as they cut across different uh functional areas in the organization looking for breakpoints and then fixing those breakpoints using a crm approach it's important to look at cross-functional pass always because again in my experience in most banks most functional areas know how to do their job the marketing guys know how to do marketing the sales guys know how to do sales the phone center knows how to handle the customer calls operations knows how to handle operations the problem is that when we go between these functional areas and we hand over a customer lead or a prospect lead from one to another breaks happen and most of the efficiency loss is actually at the handover points and and those handover points we can then identify and and the benefits of fixing them we can quantify with process planning now on this slide that you see right now i'm giving an extremely simple example of process planning and i got some extremely complicated examples that i can bore you with uh if if we meet in nairobi and walk you through it but just to explain the whole concept of process planning because process planning is one of those things that honestly when i hear process planning i go oh i really don't like it it's not something very exciting but here here is what happens uh imagine that a customer comes in and opens a current account that's that's step one right in the in the middle um and the contact goes from the customer to sales now sales at this point should capture the revenue information of that sme company pass that revenue information over to marketing who could then create a credit offer addressing certain needs that the customer may have and for the credit offer obviously the revenue information needs to be available so the offer goes to the customer the customer responds to the offer it goes to operation um operations well the things may or may not happen but certainly after a number of days and and in many banks it can be as high as 30 days pending files are reviewed purged and action is taken on them and then they may be passed over to see us for follow-up so this is a very simple process now what is wrong with it well what is wrong with that that first of all in many many cases the the forms the information that is collected by sales is incomplete so if there is no revenue information no credit offer is possible the second thing is if funds are pending up to 30 days then guess what customers would change their minds they will walk away normally after seven days they tend to change their mind and they go away so if we do a process man mapping and process planning then we identify these break points and we say okay good so what do we need to do to fix these points and create a seamless process across the different functions so that's kind of where it where it starts now benefits though even though we do this process planning and everything benefits are influenced by many different things uh it how much benefit i will take will be depend on my portfolio is it is it big or small is it growing or not the markets are is the market growing or not uh who am i targeting customers or prospects and the opportunity and i'll explain these disconnect versus behavior profitability in a second let's let's take a look at some of these things influencers well obviously if i have a small but growing customer base then i focus in on acquisitions if i have a small stable customer base growing balances then i can look at cross-selling behavior change or acquisition and so on and so on you can you can you can read through this and i believe the size will be available so you can take a look or ask me questions i don't want to kind of spend too much time going through and and and get into all the good details of this the next one is market dynamics again if it's emerging growing market versus mature table stable it will it will create a difference uh let me cut to point number four the opportunity because this is one where i get a lot of questions when i talk about needs disconnect or behavioral opportunity because these are big words misdisconnect and behavioral opportunity so a needs disconnect means that i may have overlooked certain needs that i can address a behavioral opportunity means that i have customers but their activity or usage pattern is not optimal and i can shift that around so these are two different approaches that i that i can take to then quantify the benefits and and and these will really influence my benefits so to go back uh before we get into the the uh the next area so we talked a little bit about crm the the historical background some of the critical components of crm and then defining the benefits uh what can be quantified and how it can be quantified based on process mapping and what are some of the things that will influence these quantifiable benefits it's also interesting to look at other areas which are what i call hard to quantify benefits and and these hard to quantify benefits can be some very very creative things let me give you an uh one example um point number one linking internal information with external variables to drive actions let me tell you about the bank there's a bank in in belgium that built an incredible business uh now this is not sme specific they did this with private individuals they found that when the markets go down investors react in three different ways some of them will say wow the market is on sale let's buy some more some of them will say oh i don't like it but i hang in there and and and i'm nervous but i won't do anything and some of them will say oh my god the world is falling apart let's sell everything i have so based on these three behavioral patterns this bank and its kbc then actually planned very specific activities targeting their investors with different offers all linked to how the markets are changing so they are tracking how the stock markets are behaving and based on that giving different offers to their customers and they built an incredible business based on this very simple inside and my question is always can we do something like that for our sme customers what are the external variables that might drive their behavior that we can then address with some offers initiated from the bank now the the other points let's do a quick walk through i mean we can if we take a combined view of the different functional areas and processes and how they relate to each other there are there are lots of opportunities there we can implement leading indicator based uh sales activity management and sales activity tracking and to say a few words about leading indicators you know there is a there's a big kind of myth out there that to drive sales we need to give our sales people profit targets i don't believe in that if i give my my sales people profit targets i'm measuring them on things that already happened in the past and they have no opportunity to change it profit comes at the very end of doing everything right by the time i know whether or not i made profit it's too late to do anything if i wish to drive my destiny if i wish to drive a good business i want to to uh design my activities and plan my activities so i know that the steps i'm taking will lead to a good result at the end so i'm using indicators uh measuring steps that will lead me to generating profit at the very end instead of looking at profit at the very end so i will then look at my objectives i will break them down and i will roll it back and break it down into this kind of sales funnel type of steps what every single salesperson should be doing every day and how they should go from step one to step two and use these leading indicators to actually drive my destiny and build a business and with a good crm system i can then operationalize all of this well uh point number four i i save operations time because if everything is is automated then obviously i'm gonna cut errors sales session time is also uh going to be uh shorter i'm gonna reduce fraud and losses product profitability i will improve i can have faster time to market and improve my skill base because as i'm doing activities and i i have a template to duplicate them then i can i can just re-implement it in new situations and keep building very very very fast and i will reduce customer irritation uh and simple direct marketing costs because many many times we keep talking to the same customers uh too much and they just don't like it so i can really kind of finally target how many times i should be talking to who and and and manage my life like that now there is a there there are some extra opportunities specifically in the sme area because one of the things i can do if i'm dealing with the with companies as opposed to private individuals then i can look at all the partners of these companies and i can look at the supply chain participants their customers their service providers forward sellers and i can build offers to target all these people and and enlarge my offering and build my base off my my individual sme customers into some something much bigger now having said all of this it is great that i can i can have all these benefits but you know what they won't happen by themselves uh we need to have a lot of alignments within companies um i always say look if if i don't believe in building the business i shouldn't be investing in anything that will build my business so i need to have a proactive business development focus i need to believe in using data intelligently i need to have database marketing and sales process teams otherwise there is nobody to to help me build a crm system uh if if i don't have a multi-channel approach then why bother coordinating different channels and one of the things that that's very close to my heart let me tell you and and and i learned this the hard way as we implement crm uh systems and and a good crm setup many times what we find is that we come up with new bottleneck areas and i give you give you an example um we implemented at one of the banks where i worked a pretty good beginner crm system and as a result we started getting 60 to 70 qualified warm leads per day coming in the only problem we had is we did not plan for this now it took us about a week to figure out how to handle all these qualified leads but during that week we lost more than 400 potential customers and it really really killed me and i learned it the hard way that we need to think about what the different new bottleneck areas can be think ahead and fix them before they actually developing their bottleneck now um in the process area if if we want to automate processes those processes need to exist and the process doesn't exist until it's written down and everybody understands them and everybody follows them so i always say if if we don't have these processes written down then there's nothing to improve and nothing to optimize so can we please before we even think about crm start thinking about what what our processes are how they work and what we can do about them because that's where it all starts now if we've done all of that stuff and now we know that okay we can we can get some benefits out of crm we have optimized our processes then the next step is really to kind of operationalize all of this put it into place and and build an architecture that will support that and in terms of an i.t architecture there are essentially four key components uh to uh to operationalizing crm the first one is a marketing data mod then a contact management system which in many case uh cases is called the salesforce automation system then marketing planning and then an integration module uh it's normally in this order of priority although the integration module is is a base essential now here here's what these things do the marketing data mode the data mod is very different from a data warehouse a data warehouse has a whole lot of information and manages uh every piece of data for the for the the company for the bank a data mod is a custom design database that is designed for a purpose so in this case it is to drive the business from a marketing sales perspective uh it should be able to take in prospect information uh my customer information it you know updated in a in a variable way i should be able to pull information from it and use it in a very proactive way contact management system is linking all my different customer contact points together and will help my sales force to deal with smes to deal with private individuals and allocate leads do the follow-up do all that kind of stuff marketing planning is actually direct marketing planning uh this is a system piece that allows me to to plan activities and plan them in such a way that based on the outcome of one activity i can automatically do another one or i can program in things that i don't know say based on the birth date of the business owner i can generate a a call or follow-up or something so that i can build relationship an integration module is a very important because integration module or in some cases it's called middleware is something that is a traffic cop it it it handles the flow of information between my crm components and my operating and other systems because trust me on this one you do not want to mess around with your operating system so if i wanted to show a kind of map of how the crm system would develop it would be like this in terms of external targets i'm targeting the business the private and the family side of of my smes in terms of delivery channels contact points i this is the internal pieces i just go right across whatever i have available and and you may have more than this or less than this but this then i got the crm drivers that i mentioned the data mod the marketing engine contact management salesforce automation system data warehouse is nice to have not essential for me for crm operations finance risk accounting all sorts of other systems are there and i put a middleware in between because again please please please do not try to integrate your crm pieces straight into your operating system because that is a very very high risk proposal and if you mess anything up you blow up the business so so far so good now i got the uh the map now what do i do uh this looks like a tall order because um i need a lot of uh internal skills and talent and people available to implement all of this but luckily there are solution providers out there and i try to um again to keep things simple and i split solution providers into three main types the the first one consultants the second evaluators and the third the true solution providers consultants are the people these are like saffron or capgemini and so on that help us with business review business casing and and and and kind of planning everything up front evaluators are a new breed uh reasonably new breed they are there to provide a third-party review of true solution providers take a look at their systems and and help us with that the request for proposal evaluations help us choose the right uh system integrator solution providers and then point number three the solution providers of system integrators these are the people who can actually kind of take the technical solution work with me as i'm doing my business process re-engineering and integrate the different technical components of crm into one organic piece watch out some of them have their own solutions some of them will just implement some other people's solutions and that can always have an obviously an impact on the cost complexity and so on so if i got these people helping me then let's take a look at some of the implementation milestones how will the crm implementation work well first of all i need a high level business review and i need to get the support of my management attack at the kind of let's say theoretical level that they say yeah yeah i think it's we think it's a good idea if you give us a good business gift then i get a solution provider evaluate different proposals and start nailing down this very specifics of of my crm setup then i can build a business case i can go through the uh the benefit definition i can do my process mapping i can i i can identify the how my processes should be re-engineered and i can put together an implementation plan process review optimization i finished that one up and then unfortunately i have to do with a bunch of additional must do's and and and this is uh i mentioned in a in a few minutes such as data cleansing many times we forget that we don't really have good reliable information so we need to clean it up and we need to worry about where we will get the the information then we do the technical implementation and business implementation and then again not to be forgotten training and internal selling many times companies really miss the boat by not allocating enough time for training and not allocating enough time for convincing people internally that this is actually good for them then we track the results we learn we modify things and you know if if i wanted to put that or into a time frame a schedule then it would be something like this uh total time required one to two years assuming that we get the support from management about half of this is actually the upfront work the business planning the business case the vendor selection and so on then up to six months is optimizing all my processes then the implementation integration testing and then not to be forgotten training salesforce marketing and all the other functions the good news in all of this is that say 10 years ago 10 15 years ago this would have been a a really really big undertaking uh these days with hosted solutions and so-called cloud computing uh things are much easier now cloud computing uh does create its own issues because a lot of companies don't like the uh the the security questions attached to cloud computing but it's always a trade-off uh with cloud computing i can cut you know up to 80 or 90 percent of my total cost of the crm implementation and i can cut about 50 of the time for crm implementation so uh i need to think about the trade-offs now before we um we go any further and i and i um throw it open for questions i i was asked to uh to talk a little bit about the what can go right and what can go wrong with crm implementation and i just want to give you some personal anecdotes uh how to do it right how to do it wrong again from personal experience um how to do it right my my rules are something like this number one let's not over complicate let's keep it simple if i'm designing navigation everything is within three clicks uh all the information fields are are automatically filled up information is brought forward i'm navigating within a security shell i i just really i want one single login i don't want to make my sales forces life more complicated so i want to keep it simple i want to go for early successes the so-called low-hanging fruits nothing succeeds like success if i can show my management that i'm generating extra results i'm improving service quality i'm helping the sales force and at the same time i'm losing profitability you know i will get a lot of support next one keep the providers in check um unfortunately there are a lot of kind of gurus and consultants out there who would try to sell us whatever they wish to sell us and if we don't know our business uh they they may succeed so we need to have enough enough internal knowledge to keep them in check we need to keep an open mind when we think about benefit definition sometimes the benefits are not that obvious we need to think cross-functional uh we need to think cross-channel we need to think across segments to get the most out of crm and let's do what is needed instead of what is nice to have so for example many times people say well you know we should we should have an update of the data mart uh every day and my question is do you really need to update customer profitability every day no you don't you need to update it once a quarter so save yourself the processing time update uh product holdings every day but update profitability only once a quarter so if these are some of the things i keep in mind as i think about crm and doing it right now some of the things that we can do to really get it wrong is first of all we can define crm what it is not many times companies say oh i i got a a call center optimization automation project and this is really good crm no it is not good crm it is not crm it is only a component of crm same goes for a sales force automation system like acebo it is part of crm but not crm crm is much more than that and crm starts with rethinking how we manage our processes for the most optimal way also we can overcomplicate things i remember i got a call once when somebody told me sandy i have 17 ways of identifying my customers i think i only need 10 of these can you help me defining those 10 and i said no you don't need 10 you need three or four at maximum so can you just please not over complicate things another thing i noticed sometimes companies implement crm they forget to teach their sales force to use it well salesforce will think it's an audit tool that management uses to check up on them and therefore they will hate it and therefore it will not work unfortunately it is true i i did work with the spanish bank that implemented a crm system and their sales results dropped 20 as a result because they they failed to pitch it right and to deal with the salesforce right um so we talked about the training well there's also the issue about over promising uh believe it or not 50 of the companies that claim that they have implemented crm system still have no customer profitability numbers i ask you do they really have a crm system no they don't somebody over promised uh next thing let's not plan for all the things that we don't like to do data cleansing it is it is a real bad stuff it is a lot of sweat i hate to do it but i have to do it otherwise it won't work the next thing is let us not meddle in the operating systems uh if i meddle in them it's it it's really bad as i said we can blow up the system and i just uh interestingly i just heard a very interesting one from uh one of my students um who implemented the crm system and this was in romania and he said well you know i got big problems because people are still using the old system and i was totally blown away because if i implement the crm system i turn the old systems off that the new system is the only one you can use so please don't ever ever ever allow dual system usage okay because then then it defeats the purpose now i i hope it it gave everybody some ideas about the things that can go wrong or right i will i will stop now uh as as i probably have taken up more time than i should have but i wanted to give you a quick walkthrough of what could be a good two or three day discussion with a lot more details so um elizabeth would you like to pick it up from here yes thank you so much sandy um we do appreciate that as you all can probably understand um we have developed a two and a half day training that will cover these topics so there's more content than we can fit into the webinar so with that thank you very much to sandy for putting this together today we really appreciate your time and your expertise and if we have any additional or lingering questions from the participants we encourage you to post those in our discussions area of the website so thank you all very much and i look forward to speaking with you and working all with you all soon thank you take care thank you