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foreign [Music] operators I sit down again with Mr Brian Bank from Kirkland we're going to be talking about what he has been seeing with uh GPS who are merge managers all the way to more established managers but Brian before we get into it can you remind the audience what you do sure Jordan good seeing you again thanks for having me for a second time here I am part of Kirkland analysis investment funds group it's the largest fund formation practice in the legal Community I am a non-lawyer I don't bill for any of my time I was an LP for 16 years and a placement agent for a few years and I guide emerging managers existing managers others on strategic and Commercial issues how to better fundraise how to better interact with LPS crisis management annual meeting planning branding appearance ESG again anything that's not legal that I can leverage my experience my background and knowledge I've seen probably only five six thousand decks over the course of my career and met with you know thousands of GPS so I bring that knowledge and expertise to uh Kirkland's clients Kirkland's firm the law the lawyers I work with so let's talk about coming today's fundraising environment and first what have you been seeing in the market obviously it's a difficult fundraising environment but I wonder if there's anything that's particularly been front of Mind in the discussions you've been having with GPS yeah I mean I think there are a few things I you know I think the last time we spoke and this isn't the first time the audience will hear this the Market's tough this is probably the most difficult fundraising market we've seen in at least 10 years LPS are swamped from a Time perspective they're restricted from a capital availability perspective there's multiple reasons for those factors one denominator effect is playing into Capital availability lack of distributions coming out of existing relationships is also impacting LP's ability to deploy or make commitments to new GPS the shortened time frame between fundraisers by established groups is creating the situation where LPS frankly don't have time to evaluate new managers and then lastly the size of the funds that are being raised by existing groups is larger so LPS are again limiting the number of new relationships that they can establish the amount of capital that they can commit to new funds because they don't want to lose existing relationships and they also don't want to lose access to the new products and new strategies that those existing relationships are launching which is another reasonably new Dynamics in general it's a very tough fundraising market for all the reasons I just raised the other thing that's worth noting is that LPS are still I think appreciating The New Normal here of availability they generally are not in offices or they're working remotely Mondays and Fridays so if you're on a road show in a major city you frankly should be heading home on on Friday and heading into town on Monday because you're not going to be able to put together that list of meetings that you would have pre-covid now LPS are you know really comfortable doing initial first few conversations remotely and again they don't see the value of that in-person meeting of course from the GPS perspective there's no better way to bond to tell your story and to have that personal interaction than being in person in the office so it creates a challenge yeah it's making me think a lot about what we do through video LinkedIn content and trying to think about how can we make sure that these emerging managers are staying front of mind to get the meeting and then to stay front of mind after the meeting and making sure that their message is preserved throughout that LP's investment committee so it's not just they spoke with one person but there are multiple people it's like just okay just send me the deck you have to do something that makes them stand apart and so what we have really been thinking about is video strategy and how do you drip out the different types of videos and what Cadence you do that to not just get in the front door but to stay in the discussion I recently saw a video on LinkedIn of a group that I was invested in 10 15 years ago that hasn't fundraised in quite some time but the video is incredibly effective in in bringing them back to my mind to remind me what their strategy is and they actually did a great job also in highlighting newer strategies and newer issues that are you know front and center in people's minds so excellent branding tool excellent relaunch tool if they're thinking about relaunching it is tricky how do you keep front of Mind especially if you're an emerging manager and you don't have a lot of stories to tell so I mean I think strategizing with someone like yourself someone like me to really figure out what that timing is what that looks like what's Overkill what's too much contact versus not enough contact the same story frankly is at play with existing managers you should never not be fundraising especially in this environment you should never not be reaching out to your LPS the video tool or the video as a tool is very effective both from a fundraising from an awareness perspective and then ultimately you know when you're looking to sell portfolio companies it's excellent to have in the data room room excellent to provide that accessibility and overview of the portfolio companies so when I'm advising clients on annual meetings I often suggest that they do you know videos of their portfolio companies and introductions of management teams and so forth because again these are things that LPS will remember it's much much more tangible when you can see a facility when you can see a member of the management team speaking Yeah and to that point in the lp updates like the you know whatever their quarterly or annual you know LP updates adding a video component to that we were inspired by Howard marks at Oak Tree and how he did I was like and hadesifer is more frequent blog posts for example I love that type of update um and it just adds something that's a little bit different and maybe they want to read but maybe they just want to have it on this you know the second screen and watching it on the side and uh it's just one way to kind of differentiate themselves yeah well and your point a few seconds ago is really critical which is there are multiple people at the lp so you know don't get tied down to that one person who took the meeting or the one person who's that initial evaluation teams change on a regular basis and it's a mistake for GPS to assume that the person at the lp entity is familiar with your strategy or familiar with the team familiar with the GP so a video uh is a great way and an easy way to help establish that knowledge set among the LPS especially when there is turnover how is how is it typical endowment or pension or other type of LP what are those teams you usually look like and I know it obviously depends on the size of it but what are the different functional roles and maybe before doing that can you kind of paint the picture about the lp Universe it's kind of remind us what are the different buckets and about how many pensions for example or endowments are there in the US and and then let's go into the typical team structure yeah I mean as shocking as this sounds ing to pitchbook there's more than 35 000 limited partners committing to funds and you know that breaks down between advisors which would include investment managers wealth management firms fund of funds could be philanthropies or agencies like endowments Foundation Sovereign wealth funds government agencies universities people like that pensions both corporate as well as public or Union a single and multi-family offices and then you know again there are dedicated investment firms insurance companies secondary funds fund of funds so again it's a very very large Universe individuals is another just ultra high net worth so as the firms as the lp gets larger more institutionalized the composition of those teams and offices is going to really change small family offices small entities might have one or two individuals who are total generalists they come men from you know either from within the family or through a network however they get hired they they could inherit a portfolio they could inherit strategies but again these are generalists who truly don't understand the depth across all the portfolio companies all the portfolio strategies that might be there other end of the spectrum you have these you know massive entities The Sovereign wealth funds that have teams of 20 or 30 people under each strategy you could have a private credit team you could have an ESG team you could have a PE team or a venture team and you know these groups all report up to the CIO or in some cases to a oversight committee but again you know in most situations you've got one or two people who are The Gatekeepers they you know will provide that first introduction the first meeting determine if it fits the strategy and then move it up the chain of command again if there if there is a process they'll check the box off they'll say okay this is interesting to me let's have a second meeting ultimately after the second or third meeting more people will be involved they will in most cases have site visits due diligence but again as it's both institutionalized and process driven you know no two LPS are the same the process will really evolve or be formalized if it's a group that has a system of checks and balances has broader constituents they need to be able to cover their behinds frankly that they've undergone a process these are groups that will require all the legal documentation the ddqs they'll require you know looking at budgets they'll have a laundry list of requirements and then there are others that are much more haphazard much more piecemeal you know it feels good smells good looks good like the team like the story like the examples that they gave and you know no formal investment committee process they just sign off sign on the dotted line when we go into a a you know in a difficult fundraising environment for emerging managers what are some maybe some common mistakes that they're making for a difficult fundraising environment and how can they avoid those to make sure that they're being the most effective with the limited attention that they might be getting from LPS that's a great question great question I mean I think the first mistake that most GPS or emerging managers make again is is an expectation of the knowledge and sophistication of Their audience so back to my earlier comment many LPs particularly at the lower end of the market are generalist so if you're a fintech focused VC launching you need to dummy down your story you need to make this as basic and as understandable as possible the more technical your strategy the more critical it is that you dummy it down the second suggestion I would make and the second mistake I see frequently is telling too much in the first deck having that first introductory deck tell the entire story be 75 80 Pages tell them everything as opposed to having that Dex goal simply being get to that first meeting have a nice concise 20 to 25 page presentation without typos in a clean template and a professional template I was reviewing a presentation today of a group that's already been out talking to LPS and I found four typos again you know it sounds silly but LPS are looking for reasons to say no LPS are looking for attention to detail if you missed typos and make mistakes in your own presentation that's reflective of a potential that you're going to miss a number a decimal point in an Excel spreadsheet and a projection as a former and recovered investment banker I you know as an when I was an analyst I said I'm like are you kidding me does this even matter but now you know over a decade later it matters and here's an actually an interesting thing one of our account Executives here at the firm found literally five tempos in one of our clients deck and you know this particular account executive has been in the business for less than a year and if they found that in you know an hour of being you know inexperiencing industry then what's the lp going to think about that and it's as simple as just send your deck to a friend right and just get a review of it it's just get it out out of your firm because your firm has been in it so much and you just get lost in the weeds your eyes are crossed you got a headache just send it to somebody else they're gonna say oh yeah by the way you have two different fonts this isn't a line you know you put bold on instead of bolt on you know and these there's things that it's it's it's it's not worth the disproportionate downside for a small typo absolutely and you know it's also applicable in advance of sending even to placement agent a lot of people think that they're going to send that first deck out to placement agents or to you know friends and family just for that you know first round of fundraising and and it leaves that first impression also I think emerging managers need to appreciate that very little is unique and differentiated for an Institutional and LP everyone on the lp side has seen dozens of managers with very similar backgrounds you know saying that you were the co-head of a desk at a bulge bracket bank or you're coming out of a very large very well regarded venture capital or private Equity Firm LPS have seen dozens of those same stories that same month so it really does need to stand out if you're citing you know relationships be very specific if you're citing you know companies that you've had a relationship with try to be as specific as you can obviously there are considerations regarding where you come from what your deal attribution looks like the SEC is going to be much more scrutinizing with regards to what you can and can't say and how you can promote yourself but the more General the less effective it's going to be I you know I review decks frequently that you can replace the name from One GP to the next and the story would be exactly the same there's two-thirds of the slides can be removed and added to a different deck because they're so General the pipeline Slide the process Slide the due diligence slide unless it's specific to your story frankly I wouldn't even include these in the decks they're flyover slides as I call call them and you know the last point that I would raise regarding the deck in the presentation it all really just again adds up to how to be differentiated and how to be memorable is appearance make it make it attractive the you know the templates that you can pull out of PowerPoint or Microsoft aren't appealing to an LP it needs to be professionally done spend the five thousand dollars the few thousand dollars to hire a third party firm such as yours or others that can put together a good story with a great template a good flow have it colorful the black white gray or light green dark green again put yourself in the position of the lp who sees dozens of decks at the end of the day you might be reading something and the more word the more qualitative content the harder it is to get through if you don't tell the story of your track record of your team bios of your strategy and of your Fund in the first seven pages it's not an effective deck if someone truly has a good track record a team should the deck literally just be a cover page and an executive summary as you know five people full time deployed 150 million in the past 24 months if the goal of the deck is just to get a meeting should they even have Decks that are more than 10 pages I mean you need to tell the story you need to in a best case scenario have a case study or two again if I'm the gatekeeper I need to be able to share the story internally so I need enough meat to be able to articulate to my colleagues why I like this team why I want them to come in and why I want you my colleagues to spend that hour meeting this group unfortunately the SEC won't allow you to to give your full track record how many funds do you think are being raised right now for buyout private Equity I have no idea I I would guess somewhere in the five to seven thousand range at some stage of being raised right now in the US in the in the US but again that's I I'm I'm not sure well maybe a better question is for a well-known LP that is known for investing in emerging managers or being open to it in a given week how many decks do you think that they are seeing I would have to guess a couple of dozen 25 three a day four a day something like that you know the the funny part I was just at a conference in La last week and there was a senior LP who oversees the emerging manager program at a very large endowment on a panel and you know when you have that role and you're on a panel at a conference you're literally opening yourself up to just an unbelievable amount of inbound emails you know I would imagine that if you indicate that you're open to first-time managers or emerging managers you're going to see a few hundred decks a year easily you know similar to like the VC ecosystem because of how many startups are trying to get funding they literally have to use the heuristic of was I referred to this person by someone who's trusted to what extent is does that so yeah I mean I think there's a little bit of that but I think the reality is is that no emerging manager really comes without a background so you know if you're an emerging manager and you're or if you're an LP you're evaluating emerging managers you know you've got that list of questions that you need answered before you move forward is the team experienced is the team experience working together do they come out of a program or prior firm that's well known did they do exceptional things at that location have we met before and again of course is it in a strategy that I'm interested in so you know if if you can check the box on whatever the eight nine questions then you've got a good chance of of getting to that meeting I think a lot of emerging manager LPS expect to get to know these groups over the course of a year or two expect to learn about the strategy but you know I would again imagine that most of them are anticipating not committing to a fund until fun to tour fund three it's a get to know you process you're also in a situation where the you know the larger institutions can't write a check that small to begin with so if you're an emerging manager and you're targeting a fund one that's 200 300 million dollars it's a far different Universe of LPS than if you're investing or raising a billion dollar fund what is that fund one Universe of LPS typically look like smaller yeah it's going to be the smaller foundations endowments it's going to be you know potentially some fund of funds that focus on emerging managers or smaller managers and then it's going to be the ultra high net worth the family offices the multi-family offices how are LPS reaching out I mean how are GPS reaching out to them without using a placement agent I mean we're the common however they can however they can I mean I I had a conversation earlier today with a emerging manager and you know the goal of every conversation is to get five or six names five or six introductions I mean it's it's a long painful slog but you know you start with friends family every everyone you went to business school with or everyone you went to law school with in the industry anyone you've ever co-invested with anyone you know the endowments of every institution you've personally been associated with the same with your colleagues and when you could not just download the list from Pitch book and just start cold calling is it primarily school called yeah I mean cold calls are really tough I mean I would use LinkedIn heavily I mean if I was in an LP or GP shoes you try to get that connectivity I get inbounds all the time for people asking me hey you know I see you're connected to Jordan Selleck is that someone you can introduce me to you know any kind of warm introduction is better than cold email so you know you definitely need to do the digging placement agents you know placement agents are obviously an effective tool that said you know they are busier now than they've ever been also so it's going to be really tough even if you they have to decide do they take the risk on you when right if you if you truly have a good story but it's hard to tell it's hard for them to take that on they'd rather take a spin-off from a fun three that has an easier story where two people left from fun three or particular strategy it's like this is gonna be a heck of a lot easier to sell yeah I mean placement agents only have a certain number of slots that they can spend time on and it's it's an opportunity cost if they choose the wrong manager and that manager is in market for two or three years they can't fill that slot with someone who's going to be more effective they don't get paid until the fund has been raised and you know there are restrictions or limitations regarding competitive funds so if you're a placement agent working with a emerging manager there's probably somewhere in the engagement agreement that says you can't work with another emerging manager with your working strategy so you're really any strategy potentially I mean it could be size it could be a size constraint it could be a strategy constraint it could be a stage constraint but again you know the placement agents are stuck and you know I was I had it original Nation for replacement agent for a few years you really need to pick your managers very carefully because again you don't want to be stuck without uh generating fees because you chose wrong so I think one of the things you're hitting on earlier is critical and that's around this idea of they need to get to know you and it's not just here's the intro email let's jump on a meeting next week they're gonna have to see you you know for months and months and hopefully you break through the noise and hopefully they've seen who you are and what you're about and then you afterwards you got to keep their attention and stay front of mind and I think it's really about having a robust and sophisticated marketing process that's not just the one-to-one communication that's not just going to conferences and seeing them but it's about using everything you can to cut through the noise really important and it's it's a tough situation for most emerging managers because they are cash constrained they're team constrained and they've never done it before so you know most GPS who are launching a first-time fund have been incredibly successful investors but they're not necessarily business Builders so they don't know what they don't know and you know having a good co would be a great first hire a great uh you know a very effective non-investing professional to take care of a lot of the things that they don't want to have to take care of part of that would be marketing investor relations and fundraising is critical unfortunately I think there's a perception in the marketplace that it's the investment professionals and their track records that really generates the interest in The Firm I would you know definitely raise the potential that you know an effective marketing plan to your question a an effective investment relations team and fundraising team is more important you can be the best investor in the world but if you're not getting the story straight if you're not getting to the right LPS and you're not fundraising effectively you're nowhere you're not going to be able to have a fund so you know I think money well spent is either in a placement agent is a marketing consultant is in a very effective experienced investor relations perspective now I'm not suggesting that those hires are necessary or possible frankly for a 200 300 million dollar fund one but once you get to that five six hundred I think it's worth considering and you know investing in your own infrastructure and your own people to make subsequent fundraises and ongoing investor relations efforts and marketing efforts more efficient because again as I mentioned a few minutes ago I mean you're never not fundraising and more you can do between fundraisers the more you can do to keep your LPS and Prospects informed the more creativity to keep them engaged the easier the next fundraise will be I one of the things analogies that I like to use is would the GPS advise their portfolio companies not to do marketing like to not fill the top of the funnel hey five portfolio company is I don't want you to I only want you to make products but I don't actually want to do any marketing it kind of makes me think like the brand building is kind of like the recurring Revenue like when you are sleeping your brand is still building and it's not one or the other it's a matter of using all tools available and I think our Market tends to be really good at the one-on-one and the one a few but it's not really good at the one-to-many communication I've seen a really big change in the evolution of private equity in the lower motor Market where you know five years ago the the idea of a LinkedIn post was just like why would I ever do that and then really the past two years it really changed but people don't know how to do it consistently and with inequality you know it's it's about the right mixture of company related content such as portfolio news fund announcements new hires plus the personal and the reason for that is that you have to be memorable and it can't just be track record it can't just be your strategy there has to be that story of like oh you remember that guy or girl like this is crazy story about growing up in you know somewhere in the middle of nowhere and then for some reason they went to a great school and a great firm and then they focus on Healthcare private Equity now and here's why they do it you know there has to be that powerful Narrative of why they do what they do I guess one of the things I keep on going back to is should emerging managers stay where they are at or as independent sponsors and just say the 10 to 20 hours a week that they're going to spend on fundraising stop doing it for the next X amount of months and just focus on doing deal by deal raising the capital growing your portfolio like should they even be I mean maybe it's a dumb generalized question but should they even be fundraising right now it's a great question I mean I I don't think it's a dumb question I think the reality is is that the story really depends on what the individual's goals situation is right so you know if you can afford personally to spend 24 months fundraising you have that level of conviction that you'll get there if you have an anchor if you have you know a a list of LPS who you know will back you you should start I mean I think we definitely advise certain individuals that going as a fundless sponsor for the next year or two building your track record building your portfolio is a great way to do it you know you work with a law firm to make sure that the the document documentation allows you to roll those investments into a closed fund structure is a really Nifty way to fundraise it shows prospects that you're able to source and execute transactions like you say you are it's easier to discuss your strategy and your goals when you have a few companies to talk about whether they're executed or whether they're in the pipeline so absolutely I mean I think fundless is a great way to deal by deal approach is a fantastic way to get the ball rolling especially when the market is tough like it is today I mean the Market's going to turn around at some point here hopefully in the next 12 to 18 months and and you know the the spigot should turn back on for emerging managers but in the meantime you need to do things particularly if you've left your existing firm and you've already launched this independent strategy you know what are you going to do you're not going to sit back and just wait you need to stay relevant so go out and meet with companies identify companies that you uh sometimes the economics are better for you anyway and you know in some situations you might realize that it's more advantageous to be a fundless sponsor than actually have a closed and ended fund one risk or one point that I would highlight again is that if you do take the independent sponsor approach or at least the fund by or the deal by deal approach make sure that the companies that you're investing in the size of Investments aligns with what you're telling LPS you expect to do with the fund I've worked with friends and managers who've let's say they've targeted a billion dollar fund and the first deal that they come across is a billion dollar deal that's going to scare LPS that they're not satisfied with the strategy that they're sharing on their fund it might scare LPS that they're you know swinging for the fences as opposed to really staying within the Fairway mixing Sports analogies I apologize but well that's I I've heard that through multiple clients and people we've been speaking about and I've asked them like hey what are some of the early mistakes in fact uh with Martis capital on a previous webinar that we had publicly recorded and shared he was making the Barry up off was making the point about it was a difficult story to tell of well here's kind of a venture investment here's a debt investment it's all within health care but that was one of the things that he kind of advised like being focused and making that trade-off and I think especially in a market that especially in a market where it's so noisy if you are a generalist then you're not it's gonna be more difficult to cut through that noise but as an independent sponsor you have to find a deal that can get one done it might not be you know write down the middle Affair what you know and love Etc but to First deal and guess what it might actually be a good deal in fact one of these projects that we're working on there's this deal that um they had they just absolutely has been crushing it it but it's not part of their main story right do you put that in the investor debt well guess what they're going to ask about it so what do you do to say hi Let's Pretend This one doesn't exist or this is an example of how we sourced a unique deal how we're able to do it although this is not part of our core strategy in terms of finding deals underwriting and effectively here's our thought process raising the capital for that here's how we did that for the deal now we might or might not do this in the future how do you tell that kind of story because they didn't sponsor you you gotta you just gotta get a deal done and get and pay the bills yeah I mean those stories are fantastic and being able to explain is critical you don't want to be in a situation where it's it's buried in a marketing deck and you know that LP is reviewing the deck and sees this anomaly but if you're able to have a conversation or an in-person meeting and explain this opportunistic investment that you made that had an ultimately an incredible outcome even though it might be slightly outside of your Fairway I think that's fine LPS you know LPS understand shifts and adjustments but again it's a better story told in person as opposed to being buried in a deck or trying to you know hide it within a a presentation that doesn't have that narrative at the same time you know I think my key takeaways from this are one The Importance of Being memorable and I think you need someone else who's looking at your deck and and looking at your overall story you have to be like radically candid with yourself and just say who cares am I gonna forget this deck am I gonna forget this team within this week and if there's not something memorable then go back to the drawing board find that thing that makes the story absolutely look anyone who's in this industry who's looking to raise Capital as a GP or as an independent sponsor has a history in the industry has a Rolodex has a database of people use that that database use that Network you know ask people who you've come across in the past hey look at this deck for me does it tell this story I know you're a hedge fund manager you don't understand Venture Capital take a look at this does this make sense to you you know that's your point of dumbing it down because absolutely a typical GP they know what you do and they know the different parts of the industry but guess what they're looking at so many other asset classes that's right you have to remember your story within that one asset class I mean ask your wealth advisor ask ask anyone who you can to be a new set of eyes I mean I provide feedback I'm I'm happy to do mock pitches I do Zoom mock pitches so a client will you know practice with me I'll give honest feedback I mean I spend a lot of time reviewing decks and giving feedback on the marketing decks and it's funny sometimes you know I'm a little concerned that my feedback is a little too critical but 99.9 of the time they appreciate it they say you know what you're right we need to make some of these changes some might delay the process by a month but you know again my perspective is having been on the lp side as well as on the placement agent side you'd rather take that extra time to make that initial reaction positive as opposed to that goes back to everything we've heard from the place conversations with placement agents and others in the market who say Do not spray and pray like extra weeks to get it right and be targeted and be specific and be focused and you know frankly if you're a if you're an emerging manager you shouldn't be thinking about fund one you should be thinking about fund three think about the foundation think about you know this first fund is to establish your brand to make relationships to really start telling the story and building that portfolio but you're really interested in in being double or triple the same size triple the size by fund three so you know don't cut off your your nose to spite your face up front take the time do you think that managers are over confident in their ability to raise the non-anchor capital and I asked that because I've probably have three or four discussions that are front of mind right now when it's there's a reasonable ability that they'll be able to you know Cobble together that first anchor Capital but when they go broader to the larger institutions Etc you know do you think there's this fallacy of oh I this LP and my anchor therefore everyone else is gonna recently jump come in uh come into the round I mean I think every GPU who's launching needs to have the confidence that they're going to be able to raise the capital so I mean I think the reality is is everyone thinks that they will find the capital they accept the fact that it's going to be difficult they accept the fact that they're going to have to talk to 10 times the number of potential LPS to get to the number of LPS that will build the fund obviously the brand name of an anchor is going to be beneficial so if you're coming out you know you've got a few really well-known anchors behind you you know obviously you're going to have a higher confidence level that you're not going to need you know the same 12 13 18 months that others might you know again that actually can change I mean I I have a client who I worked with about a year ago who was in a strategy that went out of favor very quickly and that client had two of the best known institutional investors uh having committed behind them for that first close and then the market turned this strategy went out of favor and and they put everything on hold so you know when they launched they assumed it would be a six-month fundraise door-to-door and now you know you're 18 months in and they still haven't had a first close so you know I think that there's always a confidence there's always an expectation but you know there also needs to be a realism that markets change that there's things outside of their control the externalities that that could really turn things on a dime well it's been a good good part too and I think a you know a number of really relevant takeaways and I just keep on going back to not wasting time with LPS and making sure that the messages that you're saying like you know not dumb it down but it's really just simplify it so that they can understand it and communicate it effectively and the second takeaway is is just being memorable what I would add is you're adding you're building a foundation and you know you need to build that Foundation appropriately so the story needs to be appropriate the messaging needs to be appropriate frankly the service providers need to be appropriate if you're you know hiring a law firm if you're hiring a fund administrator an accountant make sure these are people who live and breathe your strategy your industry on a daily basis Kirkland analysis by far the largest fundraising law firm in the industry so what does that mean it means that we've helped raise capital for every strategy out there multiple multiple times and you know if you don't go with a Kirkland you go with another Law Firm that's done it doesn't of times I mean you just don't want to waste time to have that Foundation incorrectly built all right well I think we'll need to find a part three coming up and maybe with some always on the adventure side and other parts of the fundraising universe but thanks a lot for doing this hey Jordan it's always fun good seeing you awesome all right so yeah bye [Music]