Elevate Your Business with a Customer Service Management System in European Union

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my name is John Looney I'm a production engineer with Facebook work just over the river when I'm not out talking to people and thanking them for tolerating listen to listening to me tell stories I work with the few teams but we basically get operating systems and firmer on to servers when people think of production engineers or essary they're about the same thing they usually think of large scaling problems but today I'm going to talk about instead a different different type of problem and that's people and not just people but also the fact that well where none of us are trained as customer service and this is kind of strange because when I well yeah when I started in this industry it was a bit a long time ago eh and I actually did customer service jobs and they were all horrible and in fact my first customer service job that I consider real customer service was when I was in college I worked in a local hospital doing anything for money that sounds a bit weird I did anything the union's wouldn't do for minimum wage and that included you know unions wouldn't allow cleaners to clean anything high they wouldn't allow them to clean body fluids they wouldn't allow them to clean bodies down at the morgue it wouldn't let them clean machinery connected to humans I learned all this stuff and part of it though is it turns out I started picking up on customer service I got a big kick out of it seriously considered dropping out of computer science and going to be a nurse or something because I actually really really enjoyed helping people so I didn't go straight into a software engineering job after college I was thinking of all these enjoyable you know there's nothing more enjoyable than I don't know you taking a to bed it's a strange there's someone's had a strange tube up a strange place and you're cleaning it off because again Union stuff wouldn't do that and you're chatting away to the person then they're kind of go and that was in me but you're trying to you know stop them freaking out and bringing that person back to reality and and really having a connection gave me a great sense of well-being as the best way to put it so obviously I did the sensible thing and said I think I could use my newfound skills of customer service and I know bit about computers now I'll go work for gateway 2000 doing phones tech support for angry Windows users okay not a big fan of low margin PC sales so after a cidade I went in Sun Microsystems doing tech support for people who had spent anything from ten thousand to ten million dollars on computer equipment and that was completely different for a start we got customer service training every six or eight months we were hauled out to some hotel somewhere and given a full week of you know what do you say when the person has just spent three million dollars with us says he doesn't like the color of the front what do you say when someone rings up and says I'm trying to think of what was the actual dumbest thing probably I typed CC and it said optional language product not installed well sir you typed si si si si is an optional language product and it's not installed okay great I just checking did I do something wrong you keep your cool you don't say idiot why because you want the customer to think you have respect and as long as you pretend that long enough you kind of feel it it's really nice so part of these training sessions that we were taught they were some of them are quite structured and it was it was odd they weren't tailored necessarily for the high-tech computer industry they were generic over everything from restaurants to real estate but there was seven that I kind of spoke with me I think it was like 11 and the original training deck and some of them are nonsense so let's just concentrate on the ones I think might be useful to you guys here's a weird one for you right retention is cheaper than acquisition how does that apply to essary well yeah we're really cool right it's all about the nines you have three nines four nines five nines doesn't matter how you to express to your customers or your users as long as you're hitting those metrics and you're proving that you're meeting your SLO to the letter there's nothing they can complain about right well how would you feel if out of the blue your CTA CTO it doesn't really care that much about uptime just cost has decided we're gonna move we're not gonna do you know our internal my sequel database we're going to move to MongoDB hosted MongoDB I heard it's web-scale and your first reaction is what and the second set instead of the GTOs melters yeah we won't need database histories anymore so if you can help with the migration that'd be great and we'll find you something else to do now suddenly you realize what retention and that means in that scenario is it's retention of your position in the company it is no no we want like you know if you're an SRE you've got a services you want customers because what happens when the customers go away your job security goes away so you need to be very very careful to keep those customers onside you think there's no one else in the company who can give them a database like that until you find out they go to a different company and I have seen in you know large organizations previously where when a sorry team wasn't doing a great job and they go well we don't like the essary team they're kind of maybe it's maybe they can't tell the difference between the actually yeah they couldn't tell the difference between was at a badassery team about product about dev team they didn't care they wanted someone who would make them successful so they just went to a different storage technology completely and they didn't have to deal with the old people anymore if that happens enough of course yeah you're out of a job used to go and find something else to do maybe go work for okay so as part of this I know this is more aimed at sales I suspect he was saying customers are more like you know romantic partners you need to keep reminding them that you care about them that you know you think they're unique and special and you have to make them believe it and I was looking at the the sales guy going sales is weird but maybe we can apply that tesserae if you can keep it in the bounds of the code of conduct so next one people who take pride in their work are in general happier and more productive and it's easier to take pride in your work if you're making people happy than if you're making these people miserable unless you're a sociopath yes generally if you want people to be mean to the customers you have to pay them more I suspect Ryanair pay a lot to their customers so as an SRE you should remind your team occasionally you know why your service is used in my team I point out that our service when it's running perfectly enables Facebook to deploy huge amounts of capacity to different teams in different directions at any time that's pretty cool we used to have a problem in a previous team I was on that we used to make ads and one of the engineers said yeah we make the Internet annoying and then someone else thought about and said now we make the internet free and I thought that was a pretty cool mission because I think our users are happier having the internet free than they are sad about having little annoying ads every so often another one is that when things go wrong people can feel vulnerable and when people are vulnerable they have a very strong sense of how make people made them feel while they're desperate looking for a solution looking for someone to help they'll they'll remember a long time if they were made feel stupid unappreciated or so you know as a source of annoyance and when you next interact with them that's what they'll remember they may not even remember the exact event they'll just remember this was the person this was the team that made me feel like it was my fault and that might be when you're looking for resources to start a new project or you're looking for approval to try some new risky venture or maybe even asking for more people to join your team and that's that's not cool have you ever been on call when something like that happened when something went wrong and you reached out for a lifeline you're just like I'm not quite sure what's going on here or I think I know what I think I know what to do to fix this but I'm not exactly sure and if somebody just turned around to say huh I can't believe you don't know what you're supposed to do now how would that make you feel right you'd remember that comment for a very long time so your team needs to be that lifetime for your customers even when it's not entirely their responsibility they need to go that extra mile in the real world 86% of customers said they pay 25% more for better service so they're getting the same thing is just being delivered in a nicer way they'll pay 25% more in essary this can translate into getting more headcount for your essary team or a reason to go with you and allow you to run a service rather than outsourcing it externally in my experience it also translates directly into people wanting my team to take on more services run and that always makes our lives more interesting ironically I thought about this a month ago this week it's absolutely true so that's a bit of a dear kind of yeah people talk humans have gossiped since we first developed language we use gossip to discover and enforce social rules increase intimacy and reduce uncertainty all of this brings customers and their suppliers closer together we love to warn actors sorry we love to warn people about bad actors far more than we love to recommend good ones and it's really hard to shake off because of that it's really hard to shake off a reputation for being an ass if one time when a customer was being unreasonable and you were under pressure that you you know reacted poorly that customers gonna remember that and tell a lot of people it's not just a fear though about what people say that you should care about by taking a customer service mindset or you know trying to care about customers and and you will eventually become genuinely interested in their in their problems maybe into their lives and maybe into the why did they do that smart companies they don't they shouldn't treat customer service as a expense area they should consider it as an asset you can get amazing insight into how your service works for your customers sorry if you take the time to take an understanding of what your customers are trying to do how they're trying to use your customer your service you can really get an idea of where your service is in their expectations you can see what you're missing and what you need to do next that can translate into a wonderful opportunity for customer white impact 90 years ago I was running a provisioning service in a different company we were visiting some data centers and one of the data center technicians was just saying that I was trying to understand why did you this machine you know 24 times and he was saying oh I knew one of the day was having a problem but I didn't trust our monitoring so I wanted to reinstall it while to save it in a different disk each time and sometimes two disks and sometimes three see was it causing a problem with the power supply and I thought that's kind of weird but okay did you know that you can tell our installer like just disabled components uninstall and he said no okay yeah well there you go you probably make up little shell script do a little binary search try and reinstall it with disabling different components to reduce power load and give it a go and he was delighted but I didn't understand I we'd never understood that they were using installers to debug hardware problems and after that we ended up basically giving them options to burn ins and even allow them to provide scripts that they were doing is Hardware dissections as part of the burnin process and understanding what people wanted to do was wonderful and of course if you scale that up and you have an SRE team where everyone is asking the customers what are you using our thing for well then you have a way better chance at roadmap time to build something your customers actually want I hope managers will respect that who here runs a perfect service oh you're just modest that's why you're not putting up your hands no service is perfect the closest we can get to perfection is a service that does the bare minimum a business needs while not going out of business plus a little bit of automation to take the edge off so all of the service all of the operations team don't quit so we will disappoint our users by design every so often if you can give people a little hope though that it'll get better they'll tolerate the rough edges of your service and they might even help you I don't know if now Murphy's here there's a pseudoscience he loves to give a debate called myers-briggs personality tests and the best s eries our reality sorry not reality optimistic realists so this roughly means that you know everything is but you have this belief that it will get better the best customers are in the same vein and you need to convince some of that you need to say yes honestly these are all the things that are broken but we will get there we will make it better it's pretty cool so this kind of I wish we had metrics that we could Mayor SLI is good for customer service like how do you know things are working so there's a bunch of metrics I want to keep you keeping your head when you're this is not something you think about every day this is something you probably think about it roadmap planning time every three months or something when you're trying to work at what does the team need to do different organizations have different priorities and one of the most famous tensions between two different priorities is reliability versus velocity right you're very comfortable with that another one could be between efficiency and Happiness right so this is do we keep our customers happy or do we run the business really lean and you're going to need to get that balance right more importantly though you need buy-in from probably senior people in your organization like is it cool that we keep people happy even if we spend more money if you're in developer tools or something like that it's probably a lot of people who work on things like CI tools is a perfect example you can say yeah boss we can spend twice as much money and bring down the time to run unit tests on average by a quarter because we just scale out more machines if you do that on your own you're gonna have loads of happy customers but you're gonna have poor alignment with the rest of the business who don't care about the average happiness of the engineers you need to make absolutely sure the business appreciates that another one is if you're gonna start caring about customer service you need to tie that back into a supposed business impact right so you can you show that you're evolving service that's getting better for your users whether they're external or internal impacts their customers ability to do their jobs makes them willing to pay more money if it is or give you kudos and under like set performance review time if you can't tie making people happier to the customers but the company's bottom line you do have a problem because like the rest of the world thinks this is possible if you can't prove it it's not going to go well also do you have you know customer service capacity in your team have you hired six seven people as who you work with are they the people who sit in the corner and like to be not bothered and just code all day don't to talk to people you don't need a team of bright college grads who communicate over emojis all the time and smile at everyone and ask how are you doing is that code review good but we do want something closer to that maybe two or three people who can talk to customers and six or seven people who don't mind talking to customers eventually that's pretty good you might have to build this up over time and some of that will be well give each one of the engineers a short exposure time of customers go asked go travel the offices that we support find out who's happy who's not and the engineer goes but I have to code no just take you a week off go write reports do interviews with people talk to people and if they absolutely hate it or screw it up okay it's not for them but at least give people the chance so there's also a kind of an aim this is more for tiel's and managers but if you can have a no escalations aspiration it's a it's well worth trying and this is that nobody ever asks to see the manager kind of smiling here because what does that mean for an SRE team I have had people were you know the teammate was explaining to a customer no no no no this storage stack it's not very good your read latency SLA is 300 milliseconds and some of 300 milliseconds that's 30 times what it should be to read from a disk and it's like oh well latency network problems there and the the person was like this is not we designed our system assuming this is going to be about 30 or 40 milliseconds it's been 30 or 40 milliseconds for the last year oh well now the storage system is kind of busy there's lots of other users we're using it efficiently so now we can only guarantee 300 milliseconds well then I need ten times more machines so there was an escalation I want to see the manager it's like I don't believe that this SLA is makes any sense whatsoever and of course the manager goes yeah well no technically yeah that's about what we do and there was just a giant fight why the engineer who's dealing with the original development team couldn't explain the SLA properly didn't really care that this development team had spent two years designing something on top of the storage stack that then everything shifted underneath them and then didn't seem to care that this was going to cause a problem and cost lots of extra money so having a kind of a no escalations ethos on the team of like everyone should be able to handle an annoyed customer everyone should be annoying to handle a user who doesn't understand what's going on that that's something to go for like it's not the end of the world if they come looking for the manager but everyone on the team should be able to not piss off your users okay so Irish people love hot takes this is where we take multiple unrelated ideas Monge them together and try and look like a philosopher they work best in a bar environment but we'll give them some a goal here okay does everyone agree that customer service is theoretically important okay at least one person agrees that me I'm gonna go that's sample of one so I actually think the operations roles are basically customer service right the difference is they want a technical outcome for the from their service interaction instead of you know normal customer support you're looking for an emotional outcome I don't know whatever whatever people call non-technical services for they want something fixed they want to feel better about themselves they certainly don't want to be feel Fiat they don't wanna feel like they're an idiot they don't want to feel like they're they've done something wrong they just want everything to be back the way they think the world should be and well let's like it when someone logs a ticket with you and says this server is broken and you go you filled up the logs at your fault that's not what what people want it's so much easier to go mmm yeah that service full of logs do you know of any of these nice log rotate technologies that we could use to avoid this ever happening again that's customer service on top of this most operations teams probably don't know who the customer is and that's because there's not just one customer if you're the project manager and a team the customer is probably I know some senior vice-president somewhere who gave the team a chart or a few years ago and they send capacity plans to if you're a new engineer it's probably the person who pages you most out of hours or the person who comes up to a desk asking for advice if you're the tech lead your customer is probably the engineer who's leading the company's new strategic big bet initiative and you've taken a small part of that and promised that engineer that you'll deliver if you're the team's manager realistically it's who you get the head count from and where the team's job security comes from so it's unsurprising that the team's mission and communications can seem a little unfocused if everyone is trying to please somebody different the team needs to agree that they may have multiple customers that he needs to agree who those are and try and keep them happy on occasion also enough lot of operations teams don't actually know what their product is this is really surprising you can test this by asking the team can we are can your team also support this or if we gave you extra headcount could you also do this and this is a really dangerous question for a team that doesn't know what their product is doesn't know what they're providing their customers for instance you might ask a network operations team what's your product and they go we're on call for the network we don't make a product what they do right they they sell a dependable Network the products of all of the teams that you know have worked on the network and done the wiring etc but the SRE team or the network kasseri team bundle out and sell a dependable network you might have another team say and they sell the reliability of the company's developer API also very important maybe they don't sell it for money they sell it for reputation but at the end of the day they have a product this product is ideal look at it from a product lens it'll give your team an identity products can change over time okay but everyone on the team should be able to answer that question could you also support X hey network a sorry team could you also support the rack switches and they have to think about it and they go well our product is the the dependable Network wait no is it though who's a customer who what's the customer product pair we sell an external network to the customer well then a racks which would be a distraction maybe they could take on the CDN because being responsible for the long-haul networks the edge pops etc and the the CDN yeah that fits an awful lot closer then try and run the long-haul links and the rack switches because these are two very very different things a customer who cares about the long-haul network traffic probably will get annoyed if there's an outage related to a lot of rack switches and you're somehow wasting time on that but if you're working on the CDN and long-haul network goes down I don't think any CDN customer cares that if the network isn't working as well okay so one last hop take then or maybe I'll have a few more most software engineers do not excel at customer service to know if many of you ever contacted a career guidance counselor in school I did I was told I was good at mathematics so therefore I should be an accountant I said no I'm pretty good at computers I think he said no no don't bother with computers all the software we know that ms-dos 6.21 has been released we don't need any more software and computer hardware like we'll probably have all the computers everyone will have a computer in a few years we don't eat anymore go into accountancy everyone will always need more money I ignored him but other people maybe they were saying you're really good at customer service you're really good at people you should go into software engineering doesn't happen no offense but doesn't happen so yeah it means money a Suri's kind of need help with people we need coaching we need supportive peers and maybe training I don't know maybe your organization can do some of this so maybe we're not naturally great at helping people or helping people specifically who can't help themselves let's not focus too much on our weakness right but it makes us look bad if nothing else instead we'll focus on s eries common strengths and they are that we are really good with tools process and continuous improvements right so when all you have is a nail gun every problem looks like it needs some more nails I'm gonna give you some tools to take home and build your own process and hopefully help your team to improve their their customer service if you can get your director interested in this it'll be even better because then you might actually get rewarded for being nice to people and that's a beautiful thing so actually before we do too much on tools we need to know who the tools are helping with right so who are the people who have a stake in customer service obviously we've got service users I'd like to use the word customer or get your team's use to where as customers and other places because service users sound like they're getting a free ride customers are kind of like they're providing us with money and job security so try and use customers when you can and you want to know as much about them as you want as you can you want to know you know what price they're willing to pay you want to know what latency they want what performance they're expecting what's gonna happen when there's a giant outage some customers want I don't know financial compensation someone who might do with the hug you should know the difference so yeah they want to feel those ignored HR policies buy them flowers did I just do two of those oh sorry yes service owners yes so this is your team they've pride in the work that when I know they're doing well it's kind of wrapping up a bunch of stuff we were talking about earlier on their careers wrapped up in this service if they've been on the service a long time they may consider it part of their identity so if a customer says your service sucks they'll take that really really personally your team needs to understand that and remember that they are not the service sorry their identity is not the service they should be able to take criticism from the customers and and enroll with it but they will want somebody to set context right someone who's talked to the customers who know what the customers want and be able to modify that you've also got all of your dependencies don't forget these these are people who maybe their job security is wrapped up in your success so if you're running a web serving fleet or whatever you're pulling stuff from databases you're pulling stuff from file systems you're expecting a CDN to cache it these are all other other teams that if you're if your team is doing really really well they'll get extra traffic they'll get extra kudos that you'll probably give them feature requests or likes asking them to make their service better so you should have pretty good relationships at those and then tell your team by the way we're their customers they should respect us they should listen to us they should look for our feature requests and they should act on them we've also got engineering leads touching this a little bit hopefully I don't actually mean the tech lead in the team I'm more thinking of the those wonderful engineers that seem to float around a company talk to everybody complain about everything to help fix many many things and no one can actually even tell what team they're on a lot of the time when you're trying to build a customer service ethos you some want want to keep those in the loop you want to make it easy for them to find out things about your service you want to make sure that it's doing what they expect a perfect example might be an engineering lead might decide you know we only need six different database services in this company we don't actually need 12 as anyone worked in a company where people keep duplicating things that other people have done so yeah you want to make those sure the engineer engineering needs know that your service is what your users want it's doing the job it's supposed to be doing and then lastly again managers want to make sure we're matching with high-level business goals they should be pride about context for us those managers might want to know if the service is overloaded if the people are overloaded we want to know about do we need more people fewer people have we got spare people we can loan to other teams or the favorite thing of course is our customers want this this and this and this bus and if we had more people we could do all of these or we can do these 19 things customers want but they want 27 things can you pick which 19 it's always in your interest to keep managers happy okay so here's some tools everyone's heard of service level indicators don't care about this but the core alert or sorry I'm not gonna I do care about SLA I care about you so much I dream about them but we've talked about them plenty where it applies to customer service specifically though is just like you don't care about the CPU level on your server you care that the server can handle load that you're giving it customers don't care also about you know your internal to the service you need to know exactly what they care about you need to like the the you know you're serving web application traffic or whatever if you think you're doing great cuz you're serving every 90 percent of URLs in 200 milliseconds you need to ask customers do you care they might turn around go yeah I don't care as long as the inside of a second everything's happy I'd like it cheaper and then suddenly you realize you're you've got the wrong a slice s ellos the era where it gets really interesting if you take away nothing more from this conversation the most important thing in customer service is matched expectations if your idea of a perfect service and your customers idea of a perfect service are different you are going to have a bad time imagine you pay $300 for an airplane ticket and you're okay with paying $300 because you really want to get to I don't know where's 300 from here probably grease these days and you get on the airplane and then someone wants 350 for a Mars bar you go what chocolate bar 350 now how'd they charge you 350 for the flight and giving you a free Mars bar you'd be way happier Ryanair is genius is they tell you to expect crappy service and to pay for your mars bar so therefore when it happens you don't get annoyed and this is really important this is what s ellos at their heart do they set expectations so they reduce conflict later when people get surprised nobody likes this kind of surprise yeah I'm gonna go on with that I just think of all of the ways where your sir SLO or your service has surprised your users in the past and then try and code that in in an SLO in future because they do actually read your essays and SLO s as long as the document isn't too long but try and think of all the ways where the weird corner cases in your service might surprise them document them and I will say it's not to cover your ass because if you've documented it on the SLO and then they find that they don't read the SLO and they're still surprised they're still going to be pissed so it's more you have to have that communicated with people okay so then the service level agreements I thought it was really interesting early on listening to my and you saying service level agreements are about money they're not about money several other agreements are what do you do when your SLO you're out of SLO when you try and make it up to your customer some people want money some people want blood some people want your firstborn child some people want you to apologize on stage was it s recon in Singapore two years ago and someone said when our a Suri's fail we shame them publicly and then we I'm not going to name names we shamed them publicly and then we find them right so there's different ways you can make it up to your customers sometimes you just say I'm sorry we'll do better next time and tell them how to make do it better okay so here's some tools maybe I got my slide slightly in the proper order anyway one is a weekly production meeting this is such a simple tool and I'm annoyed that I don't do this properly myself it shouldn't be terribly formalized there's rules about good meetings and one is you shouldn't have recurring agendas because then people get bored and you shouldn't use meetings to tell people things that they already know that they could have gotten in a in a email or something yeah but you can certainly say click the click here's our high-level metrics what do people think what's what's gone wrong is everyone happy move on what's the story with the customer tasks screwed like long term things and our project ideas no no your production meeting should be what do our customers care about maybe it's small things but you should definitely look for all the things that they care about that you haven't fixed yet we also want to log follow-ups have a look at that we suppose that's part of it you can decide you know what do we want to do but then get out of that have a short bit on roadmap progress and tell the customers right these were our metrics this is it for okay about this is what we're going to do next week this is what we're going to do next month and use the meeting to kind of crystallize that that decision there's a bunch of other stuff you can do but honestly let it up to your own team but you need to meet regularly to discuss how well you're meeting your customers needs another one is a slightly different one I mentioned you have to keep your Matt your managers happy and one that I hated having to do it but really really appreciate it when it gets done and that is you know you can do a security audit reliability review maybe data integrity review something like this where you go through your service and you take a good look and say well how have we done over the last while and then publish that out to the customers and let them know that you take not just what did we how is the last week but also hounds the last quarter has the last year and then use that to drive what's going to happen in the future there's a little template which you'll be able to find in my slides afterwards so you can use that yourselves maturity matrixes I've seen many many different versions of these always they look terrible but they're useful for the team to come together and have a good honest conversation they can also be very useful when comparing how one team is doing versus another team Facebook did a really novel version of this where they find subject matter experts they might go to a the team that looks after CI and say hey can you tell us code health how often people's tests fail how what how flaky their tests are any other metrics you think are important about a team and we'll bubble that up as a code health element on the maturity matrix and so we're doing that for dozens of dozens of teams so you'll be able to have a look at a quick thing of your team and see where you are in the world but more importantly any customers can have a look and go this team's a show no wonder like they're they never noticed when when stuff breaks you can also this actually a legal requirement in the European Union a data catalog yeah what day do we own how's it generated what would be useful I started doing this because a few years ago one of my teams 200 data sources disappeared when it came back it was corrupted and everyone's gone where does this data come from oh who owns it I don't know is it generated is it a static thing where does it come from no one had any idea it took about eight hours where the service was degraded because we didn't have one of our data sources I'm after that it was like okay okay we'll have to do a full audit because we need to know be on top of this and tell our customers that we know where all our data is coming from and of course our dependencies and saying did you know that we think that one another last one customer surveys go talk to your customers my team we'd look after data centers so we visit all the data centers it would be the text find out how they're doing go to the various sites for big teams that you have large fleets and machines and Facebook that grill them find out exactly what they think and this is a wonderful source of roadmap items I'd say a bad third yeah probably a third of our work comes from these kind of customer interactions I wish I had loads of time but these these these would take a very long time so some examples of teams with terrible customer service interactions and how we got rid of them first we'll talk about storage service so very story service of weird people are attacked very attracted to their data or suspicious when it goes away they don't like date they don't like these kind of storage service users don't like change they they get suspicious when data gets corrupted they think for some reason you're untrustworthy no one wants to go first at use your versions of storage software anyone else put all their precious data on a new Linux file system I think 10 years after it's released people are still suspicious of a butter a fast but anyway so this story system that was being run customers were very suspicious there was lots and lots of problems some people want them to go faster some ones didn't go slower there was no real appreciation of a giant big ops load that had built up over many many years and with a big scale up in customers sorry customer onboarding what people initially thought was a very nippy cool service ended up having latency problems all sorts of blips and then when people started trying to fix these they broke more storage problems so it didn't go well pitchforks all round but with a lot of work we did actually manage to build a user forum bring all the users together the ones who want to discuss Lo and the ones who wants us go fast have them talk to each other explain you know what exactly was wrong tell the customers you tell us what to do you tell us how to how we should proceed and they didn't get a vote but at least they understood then where the the big was we then actually said well what do you want the SLO to be at these big meetings and of course some people would say we don't care about latency we care about reliability others we care about latency so can we have a big collaboration we managed to collaborate we managed to get everyone to choose exactly what they wanted gave them half of what they wanted but it was with those kind of expectations of we can fix this in a month in two months and three months in four months and I actually met a lot of those promises they eventually started to promise oh sorry to agree with this again so Laura is showing me the out-of-time thing loads which is a shame but anyway so I'm gonna see if I can go a little bit on cuz I had a few small of those ons its inclusion I yes so my conclusion is that s eries our best s eries our customer service experts we don't get customer service training we should get customer service training we're going to have to learn it ourselves the ones who've been doing it a few years have probably annoyed and distressed a lot of customers so we can listen to those it's not a bad idea if especially if you work in a company that has customer service personnel pull us a few of those introduced into it the SRE team see if you can get the training that they got and use that to define how your service interacts with its users and its stakeholders it'll be so hard to measure but so worth it okay thank you [Applause] [Music]