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okay welcome to chartloop's medic uh series i am here with craig rajpal craig is an enterprise sales director at wocato he helped initiate their uh enterprise sales motion and we're gonna dive into this whole framework of uh medic today so welcome craig sean great to be here and uh really exciting to be chatting i think this is our third time now that we're coming together to do this so uh really excited to be chatting and med pick has been something pretty close to my heart i've been using it personally as a salesperson but also a lot of my team members have been adopting it so excited to share more absolutely so um let's dive right into this uh we know that there's right there's probably three or four main uh or popular methodologies in enterprise sales there's there's spin selling there's bands um so so let's let's kind of first firstly maybe understand exactly how uh what medic is in the first place uh and then we'll maybe compare it to a few of the others let me actually share here we have um a little um right a slide here showing the different stages of of medic so i'll turn this over to you and then maybe give us a little intro on what the framework is all about absolutely i mean um you know from there's two perspectives to really think about medic right one is more of a holistic organizational perspective which is you know how is medical company not just train their sellers to sell better but forecast better to basically have you know if you're a public company especially right have a more sensible strategy towards forecasting and b from actual selling perspective med pick is all about you know how me as an individual seller can utilize a core framework or a core tenants of a construct to be able to evaluate my own sales cycles so when i'm not able to see gaps or when i'm not able to see holes in this beautiful sales cycle how do i fix those i think that's what medic is as a holistic level it's basically a way on how you re lead and run your sales cycles absolutely absolutely great now that's that's a very good uh um segway here so so um maybe to uh share with us a little bit more should i you want to maybe tell us a little bit about the stages and how how one uh gets it started can you actually see my my uh screen here with the different stages now if you if you pull it up that would be great i cannot yeah let me do this i share it uh yeah this should work here we go perfect so yep now we can see it right so just to kind of walk folks through i mean met pick it's not necessarily you follow the m and then the end and the d and so forth the first stage in any sales process is the discovery stage or as you know some of the folks on the outbound selling side it's more on the value alignment phase when you try trying to pitch okay how does this align with the value you're supposed to deliver when you think of med pick i think the first stage in the sales cycle is really the eye or the identification of veil of pain or a strategic priority that is when you're starting a sales cycle let's assume you're let's assume you're uh let me pick up let's assume you're a seller at salesforce trying to sell trying to sell salesforce to a company like uh to a large sales organization right that potentially needs crms and all the things that go along with it right so the first step is going to be identification of okay what are the specific gaps that this company might be facing which sales force is a product uniquely solves right and that's kind of is the mo that's essentially the building ground or the foundation on top of which the rest of the sales cycle is going to be based upon right post that you know you really dive towards you know more of the technical scoping or the you know more of the ingrained scoping process when you're trying to figure out okay if this is the pain how does the how does salesforce.com or your solution specifically solve this pain and that that's when you're really you know folks often ask me especially some of the folks who are just starting off their careers in selling is how do we make champions and you know i think the there's this very famous saying pain finds champions so you know if you need to find champions go find the right sort of pain and the company which is you know stopping somebody from succeeding stopping somebody from getting promoted whatever the underlying catalyst may be but pain is really the mechanism to champion and that's essentially also the next phase in your medic cycle that you're kind of identifying the other thing is the sooner you find your champion pretty sure your competition has found their own if you're both relying on the same champion you're not relying on the champion at all you're relying on somebody who's just coaching you through their selling motions right once you've gotten there and you know there's a there's quantified pain the company is going to definitely do something that's when you're really diving into critical aspects like the decision criteria hey we as a company are looking for a crm but these are the specific components or the attributes that we're thinking about when we think of a crm that's the decision criteria furthermore when we think a little bit down further down the line when we're talking to the teams okay we understand your decision-making criteria but what is your process going to be are you going to do a poc with 5 20 30 50 people in your organization who are going to get their hands on keyboard keyboards and look for you know a specific component basically to a proof of value of the solution or b is going to be more of a catered demonstration uh once you've made the technical when what is the process from therefore or not like who does the negotiations have you approved the budgets who are the key people from an economic uh buying perspective and so forth and then of course uh as you as you go past you know the technical scoping phase before you even get to a proof of value you're really aligning yourself with the economic buyer to make sure that at the end the the whole project is with somebody who can't sign off on the dollar bill during the scoping process you're trying to understand the pre and post process metrics which are all about okay my sellers take 40 minutes long each day when they are missing a crm putting that roi together so the company understands and you as the seller have you know a quantification of the business value of look these 40 minutes times a thousand sellers at your company is costing you two million dollars a year and you have that to present when you put forward your business case and then when all is good and well and you have the technical win you're really understanding the paper process because as you know in many large organizations if it's a 9 to 12 month or 9 to 18 month selling cycle you might get the verbal win at the first year mark but the paper process might take you another six months on top sure would you say the paper process the bigger the organization the typically longer it takes that that is that is correct yes that that's that's right i mean whatever i've seen everything from you know paper process as small as two months to as long as nine months to even a year actually at times it really depends and uh sometimes the paper process might be as straightforward as you know hey we need to get approval from our cso org or we need to get approval from uh we need to get legal aligned and make sure that the dpa and the msa terms of services are all lined up within the organizations on other times it can be you know just the internal paper process that is hey even though like it has to go through approvals five stages above and like folks have sold the walmart specific above a trusted threshold walmart is pretty famous for getting everything done and then a click being waiting on the cio's table for seven months just for the cio one day to open up that approval in koopa and hit approve uh been on the other side with some of those sellers and believe me it's painful so having forecasting capability and you know having a full understanding of the total process is essential totally um nice so so we pretty much covered everything did we mention uh refer to competition um that's like earlier on you would say in the in the process the sooner i mean you know often it really depends upon the cycle right and i think it again begins with the identification of a either pain or the identification of a strategic initiative and what i mean by that is if the company is already understanding hey that we have a gap that we need to fix more than likely they're not just evaluating you as a you as a specific vendor but five other vendors alongside you right and depending upon the champion you have of the multiple champions you create you'll be able to get information about who they're evaluating pretty quickly so earlier on the cycle i would say you know identification of pain or strategic initiative or basically the gap is the first part of the medic process and that's followed by the champion creation process the understanding of the competition once you get into more of a technical scoping metrics becomes pretty key so you can understand okay what is the situation as is today and what is the value of this what is the post implementation of the solution situation so you can quantify the value and then you really go down the funnel okay understanding the decision criteria the process meeting with the economic buyer on your you know having the economic buyer meeting and then the paper process right right so so enterprise sales reps are are known to to swear by you know medic being their their process now now from your perspective i mean is is there an anecdote or a story that you could share of like why this like you know here's here's how i was selling before and it was going okay maybe a few bumps and here's how this because this seems like pretty you know it seems like common sense like isn't every any any seller doing this anyways so so how did this you know change your life yeah there's a famous saying common sense is not so common at all and i personally don't espouse to it but i do want to take learnings from it right so uh i think the idea with netflix is it's not that uh it's something being forced upon sellers i'm an individual seller myself right i adopt metric i i i use netpick not out of the force of somebody else but my own volition for the simple reason it's gonna help me apps when all i see is like you know wonderful pastures right so what it's helping me do is it's helping me proactively think about any gaps that i'm not thinking about so for example i have a strong champion i have amazing metrics which quantify the business pain this seems like a sure shot deal but i still have had i have yet to meet with the right economic buyer or we've still had to meet with the person who can sign off on the check med pick will act as my guard rails letting me know that hey that's a critical part of the step the sales process that i'm still not thinking about the other thing is paper process oftentimes one of the biggest failures i see when it comes to forecasting within enterprise sales is the paper process right you might get especially folks who are new to enterprise sales or haven't done this for long you know they get the verbal win and they're like yeah maybe a month or two and we're all good we're all set to get the deal closed and then nine months later they're still waiting on uh they're still waiting on the msas to be uh you know their legal teams have hashed out the msa so uh it's essentially think of met pick as the guard rails you know even if you're if your natural instincts and selling in your natural uh skills and talents get you eighty percent of the way uh med pick is the other twenty percent which make sure you don't fall off just in case right oh absolutely so tell me i mean from what from what size deal is this applicable would you say like if this is a small let's say a 50k deal like you're wasting your time it's it's whatever it's you know four or five meetings and you have a deal and you don't even need to go through the cio or like what's kind of the cutoff look if it's a five thousand or ten thousand or twenty thousand dollar deal i wouldn't bother with netpick i think it's gonna take you it is just not as consequential in transactional deal sizes as it is and much more strategic ones if you're a mid market or a commercial organization sales organization deal sizes in the vicinity of 40k and above 40 to 100k yeah you should sporadically use medpick you sprinkle that in and then anything above 100k in arr for sas organizations absolutely i believe medpick is an essential for every single one of those deals you might have an outlier that closes in 60 days or 90 days and you know feel happy about it that's okay but more often than not anything above 100k is gonna take you roughly three to eight months so i'm having there as the guiding anchor is going to be helpful for sure for sure now let me ask you like in in terms of uh you know of a sales organization so so so let's think if i was a company with uh you know go to market organization of three or four hundred people like who owns the medic or med pick process is it the you know the vp uh sales the cro uh is this more of like a training and kind of where does this uh who takes ownership on this or because also i've seen some organizations where that you know every every uh rep is doing you know freelancing different methodologies and then you look at their crm it's a total mess uh and so so like how do you get this thing down pat so i think there's a couple of different approaches here right one is it needs to come top down right so one of the biggest comes to scaling sales organizations or training reps the right way is the it is basically the lack of a common language what i mean by that is you'll be sitting in a room sean are you still there sure yeah yeah and did i cut out you did uh so let me start again real quick so here it's a good question around who basically takes ownership of medpac in an organization right so i believe it does come topped on but there's a couple of different folks who are really responsible for metapick who also get the most benefits out of it right so if you think of sean pause first yeah yeah yeah let's let's uh yeah i think we're good i think we should it's we should we should go through and uh yeah we're fine you'll cut you'll cut it out right yeah yeah i'll cut out the sections that got fuzzy okay cool ask me your question again yeah so so who owns the um the the sales process in terms of implementing uh medpay does it come top down like cro vp sales or you know does each rep bring their own like i've seen some organizations where you know the people just like freelance each rep does something else but then also like how do you uh write the way reflect this back into your crm in a cohesive way that's a good question um you know so i i believe that so whatever the sales methodology med pick spiced band spin whatever whatever you can think of right the the issue with not having a common i think of a sales methodology as like people speaking common tongue or like a common language right if you have 20 sellers in your company or you know five of them speak french the other five speak german the other five speak english the other five speak mandarin it will be impossible challenge for you to really train those reps on anything so should be seen as a top down kind of an initiative where it really is bringing everybody to speak the same language so that each person can understand economic part we're talking about the exact same person or the exact same individual who can sign off on an initiative and has full authority on the budget does that make sense i think netpick does start top down what what i have seen though companies do delay it much longer than needed so oftentimes once you're at 5 10 20 30 people you have a sizeable sales force at least on the earlier stage side you should start having a common methodology such as medpick so that everybody understands and the communication styles and where the deal stand is exactly the same sure absolutely let me ask you this in terms of the the sales stack and like does doesn't matter you know and in terms of what framework you're using how you implement this along with your tools like you know if you're using uh something like a gong or chorus to track your your deals or or your crm or some of your other very essential uh technology stack in order to sell better so what would you say so often times what i've seen companies do is uh within their sales within their crms most often salesforce now for 99 of folks listening to this right it is uh it is basically they've actually created custom fields such as identification of pain and basically every single one of the med pick acronyms in there to kind of go in so the as the deal moves from like say stage one to two the reps have to add those key components in right right and you know it's a good question to leverage gong and chorus so i haven't seen a lot of folks like really map out specific areas where you tag back to like a gong recording of where this was spoken or this this specific um you know med big acronym was satisfied if you will uh that that yet it just becomes too forceful on the reps so not a good idea but uh yeah in salesforce absolutely i've seen folks have custom fields that you have to input to uh to get uh to move a deal from stage one to like say three right and do you guys have uh any uh like meetings around this like a weekly uh is this like part of like weekly uh sales planning or or whatever intervals to kind of uh that that that medic allows you to really uh have a clear picture on on your book of business so we don't have meetings on med picks we have meetings that do leverage medic what i mean by that is our forecasting is predominantly based on top of netpick so that we understand okay where do we stand in the buying journey is this somebody super early on where we're just discovering the pain or the strategic initiative that we're going to align ourselves with or is this something much where we're meeting with the economic buyer we have a verbal understanding we've conducted a proof of value so it's essentially acting as more of a that that that that that map right that map of the sales journey letting us know where we all stand and we're using netpick as essentially the guiding map or the guiding north star if you will right absolutely and and i've seen i've seen um this this trend with a lot of these larger companies like once the company hits like 100 million or 200 million in revenue they bring in force management which which includes some of the people who actually uh were the founders or the people who came up with the methodology in the first place uh i believe at ptc uh so so uh to kind of consult and help implement you know at large scale you know med pick so the question is like why so so late like doesn't it seem like you'd want this you know as you said like when you once you have 50 reps 100 reps you definitely want to have like you don't want to have another tower um of babylon so i wonder if you if you saw that yourself uh and then if you have any thoughts about that yeah um no so i'm i'm actually a big fan of john mcmahon so for spanish john mcmahon is uh look i i revere him i think he's he he does fantastic coaching to a lot of folks in sales he's a five-time cro himself yeah i came out with a recent book that i'm a very big fan of it's called the qualified sales leader uh i would he talks at length and about met pick closer to the end and you know just sales in general and how do you you know basically it's a it's a story of you know he takes a organization that's suffering from a sales perspective a go to market motion perspective and really turns it around so would highly recommend if you're in sales and go to market and sales enablement whatever the function may be uh if it's revenue centric highly recommend you check it out absolutely so i'm very excited that we're definitely going to dive into into john john mcmahon's uh uh new book with with our series here so this was an awesome intro uh to uh medpic and then uh over the next uh few sessions we're gonna dive into each one of the actual components and see how we actually can plug it in into each one's uh sales process so craig really excited to do that with you excited to do that with you as well sean this is going to be great thank you so much thanks everybody thank you greg have a good one