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u.s president-elect joe baden is signaling his plan to scrap the keystone xl pipeline as one of his first moves once in power ing to sources who spoke to cbc earlier we talked to parliamentary secretary paul lefeve who said his government would continue to make the case for the project let's get some more reaction now from scott mo he's the premier of saskatchewan he joins us from regina hi premier mo good to see you thank you for making the time well thank you premier mr biden was crystal clear in his campaign one of his spokespersons put out a statement at one point saying mr biden would proudly stand in the roosevelt room again as president and stop it for good by rescinding the keystone xl pipeline permit should this have come as a surprise at all this is very concerning and i think it is surprising that uh the president-elect would be making this decision in his very first day in office it's concerning as it's been up until this point a project that has been supported by uh both administrations on both sides of the border it's supported by all of the people that are working on the project and and hope to work in its operations in the in the years ahead this this is a a positive project for uh north america and it would be most uh concerning that on day one that president-elect biden is going to make a decision uh like this a controversial decision like this and it's it would be very concerning as to where our canada u.s relations may go in the future it's one of those rare uh projects or issues related to the energy industry that actually sees the alignment of provincial governments with the federal government what does it say to you that even despite that alignment it doesn't appear that mr biden's mind can be changed well it says to me that uh that that i would and i would hope that the federal government and i know we are as a provincial government are going to be making the case in the in the next number of hours and days as best we can to the biden administration as to the merits of this project and as i say not only does this provide uh energy security for north america but it also provides the opportunity for jobs that are folks that are currently working on the construction of this pipeline on both sides of the border that provides jobs for those uh for years into the future and ultimately there is an environmental plan around this particular pipeline unlike any other pipeline i'm aware of it's net zero in its operations the product that's coming out of saskatchewan and going into this pipeline has reduced our greenhouse gas emissions in its production on a per barrel uh use by 50 a sustainable product going into a sustainably operated pipeline providing energy security for all of north america i i think this is a project that there's a reason uh that both sides of the borders administrations had approved it until this point and we hope that it will continue uh continuing its construction and continue with the opportunity that it can provide i imagine joe biden and his supporters would uh would challenge the assertions that you made by a saying that that claim by tc energy around net zero was just made yesterday and that there aren't a whole lot of details yet provided about how that would actually happen and b when it comes to the creation of jobs yes there there are some good numbers clearly coming through the construction but their own state department analyzed back in 2014 once the pipeline is operational there would only be about 35 permanent employees in the united states with a with a president-elect who has prioritized climate change in the way that he did can you understand how the arguments you're putting forth won't really be convincing no because our arguments do hold water as i said the the energy coming from saskatchewan that's in that pipeline and additional energy um existing uh a pipeline infrastructure and the additional energy that would go into an expanded kxl has reduced our greenhouse gas emissions by some 50 uh the refinery and the demand the refinery is still going to operate and the demand for the end-use product is still there but it is going to be procured in absence of this pipeline by places like venezuela or opec nations that have a much more problematic environmental record and in particular climate change record and climate change goals and then the product that's going into this particular pipeline this pipeline fits within canada's climate strategy that's i think why the federal government supports us and most certainly uh i think the federal government and austin's provinces are looking to ensure that this that the biden administration has uh all of the facts and has the merits of why this pipeline is beneficial for all of us in north america i take your point but but i wonder is you know with respect premier if in fact we know for sure that should this pipeline not be built that it would be supplanted with the product that you lay out and i and i guess i would ask is it worth putting it putting everyone's eggs in this basket when you think about demand being down and i know that there are projections beyond 2023 that it will pick back up but still it will take until then ing to the iea to come back prices have been volatile and very depressed uh oil sands companies right now are not even focused on expanding production they're focused on return for investment for their shareholders and cash flow it's not like you see tons of announcements of them wanting to expand production and the need for uh more and more pipelines you've got tmx potentially line three is it really worth the fight for keystone yeah absolutely uh this just saskatchewan i spoke a little bit of the direct barrels of oil that would go into that pipeline and their environmental record but just by the expanding differential over the course of the last few years or just even this past year uh saskatchewan and the saskatchewan energy industry which is about the third largest uh very close to newfoundland in the nation um was was down about 900 million dollars just due to the differential this past year that we all know was a pandemic year where our production is down demand has been off over the course of the past year and it still cost our saskatchewan energy industry close to a billion dollars it's far north of that in normal operating years we'll be far north of that in the years ahead and by and large that's not only a cost to saskatchewan's industry but it's a cost to to all canadians ultimately as we share that wealth across the nation and people work in the saskatchewan energy industry from other areas of the nation as well so the cost is very dear is much larger in alberta but the cost is to all canadians and i would say that the the if this program this project is cancelled uh it's to all of our detriments in north america but that differential will be impacted by the construction of tmx by line three getting up and running that differential will be impacted by those there's lots of analysis out there about how keystone becomes an extra after the two of those and it will be impacted that differential will also be impacted by uh kxl uh listen to the the uh the us or the gulf coast is uh by and by and large been the largest purchaser of saskatchewan energy over the course of the last number of years will continue to be likely for the course of the next number of years if this project is not able to go ahead it is a as i said detrimental for the opportunities and jobs is detrimental for our economy both north and south of the border it's detrimental for having ultimate energy security for all north americans and as i said this this particular pipeline is somewhat unique in the environmental record that it has it is as a an environmental record unlike any other pipeline project that i have seen uh going going forward whether it be in the operations of the pipeline itself or whether it be in the actual energy that's being uh being transported in it okay i'm out of time unfortunately i have a lot more questions and and i know there are definitely questions about uh the projections put forth about the pipeline in operation and its uh environmental impact but i'll leave it there for now thank you premier mo pleasure to have you with us thank you very much the pipeline that could be on its deathbed once again sources tell cbc news that president-elect joe biden will pull the presidential permit for keystone xl on his first day in office the provincial government in alberta estimates that the project will create roughly 2 000 construction jobs over the next two years the province also expects it to generate 30 billion dollars in tax and royalty revenues for alberta and the rest of the country over two decades in operation so can the prime minister still change joe biden's mind paul lefeve is the parliamentary secretary to the minister of natural resources he's with us from sudbury ontario hi mr lefeve good to see you again thanks for making the time thank you bashi sources have told cbc that the project that kxl will be killed by the president-elect on his first day in office has the biden administration told the federal government that directly right now as the answer that is no certainly we continue to engage at our officials level but certainly in the current administration is still the trump administration and on the january 20th the new administration will be sworn in and at that point we will certainly engage um with the with the new administration but what i will say though is that the prime minister has been quite clear i am a few months ago saying our position with respect to to the keystone xl project as well as even seven years ago so our position has not changed the administration is aware but certainly speculating as to what their decisions will be right now is certainly not something that we want to engage in why isn't it something that you want to engage in is it really speculation i mean there are multiple outlets in both the united states and canada reporting that people inside the bonnet administration for example have confirmed that you're saying that the federal government has no knowledge of joe biden's plans to kill this presidential permit i think no so what i'm saying is that we continue to engage at the uh at our officials level and we continue to make the case that uh why this infrastructure project is important has the prime minister directly reach out to mr biden or anyone close to him since news of this surfaced well certainly um we've been like like i said before our position has not changed right now the current administration it will be the demonstration will be coming into place on wednesday and after that we will continue to have our conversations but i know at the official level that we certainly continue to make the case uh with the us officials through our us ambassador and but uh we we strongly believe that the importance of dialogue uh with uh that will be key as to how we move forward so just to be clear though the prime minister has not reached out since news of this surface because the prime minister had spoken to mr biden previously since the election but since this news there has been no outreach from the prime minister to mr biden or his office or those who surround him on the island i can't i can't speculate as to what the pmo has or has not done but i know that we have made the case at many times the embargo administration is more than aware of where our position is we made the case through our ambassador and we continue to certainly make the case as to why this project is important what does it say or what should it say to canadians that the biden administration thus far it appears has not been convinced by all the arguments that that you say have been put forth by uh this government well certainly for us this uh the administration has also stated that the they foresee oil and gas being important for for decades to come and we are making the case that the most strong environmental uh and climate policy frameworks in in the world is in canada and that's why we believe that this project fits in with the what the us administration the new administration wants to do as well so for us having the you know the cleanest fuels in the world being exported and that's what that's why this project we believe in it we believe in the workers of alberta we believe and certainly as to the measures that we have put in place the price on on on pollution making sure that they're the clean fuel centers that we're putting in place we want to have and we have the high the most strictest esg regulations in the world and that's why we will continue to promote certainly as the world needs oil and gas why we should make why they should be uh taking and consuming canadian oil and gas my question though mr lef with all due respect was why all of that has failed to convince joe biden to make a decision other than the one it appears he is very clearly going to make not just at some time during his administration but on the first day that he's in office that says something doesn't it yeah well again uh vashi i think you're again we are speculating we i think we need to wait to see what happens on wednesday but as i said before we believe in our workers in the in alberta and in saskatchewan uh we are proud of of the work that they do at the same time we put measures in place to make sure that we can promote and continue and be behind getting oil and gas why because it is it has the most strictest regulations of environmental stewardship in the world we will continue to to do that and that is we would be fools not to continue to uh support certainly the again the uh they're all the regulations that that we have put in place and that um and why it's important to make the case for canadian oil and gas there's been so much discussion amongst many people involved in both sides of the relationship between the u.s and canada since the outcome of the election november about a sense of optimism that the relationship will change be more predictable for example going forward than it was under the last four years under president donald trump if joe biden were to immediately rescind this presidential permit what message does that send your government and canadians about the potential for that renewed relationship i think again flashy i think you're this we are speculating now but what i can say is that certainly our since 2015 since we took office certainly putting the strictest like we put a price on pollution and we certainly have a climate plan to meet our paris 2030 targets and to get to net zero by 2050 and this is outside people certainly third parties saying that the plan that we put in place in december will help us achieve that and within that plan we still we still believe that there is room for uh supporting canadian oil and gas as i said before the case that we are making is having the cleanest fuels in the world and as the world will continue to need again the administration um has also said that uh they foresee uh oil and gas being certainly something that it will be required for decades to come we want to make sure that our job is to make sure that the canadian oil and gas is at the forefront to be certainly to access those markets even if uh as you characterize it the the timing of this decision will be uh speculative the president-elect has been unequivocal about his position on keystone xl and has been during the campaign he proudly his campaign said he would proudly stand in the roosevelt room again as president and stop it for good by rescinding the keystone xl pipeline permit so it's not necessarily speculation maybe the timing is because you as you say the federal government hasn't heard directly from him on that uh but but to that point look a lot of critics of the federal government say and i and i take all what you've put forth about supporting workers in uh in alberta and the project itself uh well there are critics though who say that you know you you kind of have to put your money where your mouth is kind of you know they like to see more action on your part and with all due respect and appreciation for you appearing on the show the federal government wasn't able to put a minister to talk about this is that should should we take that as an indication of of anything no i think vashi what you think as an indication is certainly the plan that we put forward on our for our climate change agenda in december that is a plan that we put forward and at the same time we strongly believe and we've been saying this in 2015 since 2015 we can do both we can certainly support our economy and at the same time support our environment right and certainly we also hear when we hear climate change we also hear jobs and at the same time that's why we have put the most the strictest regulations and certainly we believe in the world when it comes to extractives right and certainly putting the strongest measures in place and that's no so that we can continue to to to support our workers in alberta and in saskatchewan and because we truly believe in in the great work that they do and at the same time meet our net zero target and meet our 2030 targets for the art with respect to the climate change are the the paris targets okay mr lefeve i'll leave it there i do appreciate your time thank you thank you so much hi i'm vashi cappello's host of power in politics see more of our show by subscribing to the cbc news channel or click the link for another video