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hello and welcome to the making season 3 with me Shireen Bonnie in association with HSBC my 2048 India is likely to become the second largest economy in the world after China that's as per the oecd's recent numbers until now in this season we've been connecting with Indian Business Leaders to understand how India has transitioned to a new phase of economic growth and the fundamental pillars that are charting the path of making this journey if the recent disruptions have taught businesses anything it is to embrace digitalization to become more resilient cater to the digitally forward customer and be Future Ready India's financial sector is also rapidly leveraging Advanced Technologies to keep up with evolving customer expectations and show faster turnaround and offer a frictionless yet secure intent service in fact the booming digital lending sector of India is predicted to be worth 350 billion dollars by 2023 after growing at a scorching Pace to understand how digital transformation is driving India's financing Revolution I I have with me rajat Varma Commercial Banking head at HSBC India Rama Swami Ayer the founder and CEO bayana Network and archit Gupta the founder and CEO of clear gentlemen appreciate you joining me here on the making thanks very much for your time Brown let me start by asking you from the start of your journey in 2016 when you founded vayana to where we find ourselves today with the kind of digital acceleration that we have seen what have been the key Milestones to your mind that have helped us charge this transition so I think I have multiple things I mean 2016 demonetization spurring off all kinds of electronic payments 2017 introduction of GST labeling a lot of free data to get captured 2020 the introduction of e-invoicing um you know and now on ndfc account aggregator I you know I think it's India has been a success story of public infrastructure coming in and helping lending to kind of lending credit payments everything has to kind of go right up to the last month so I think each year almost has been a milestone and of course covert was a big milestone in itself I think we discovered you know if anybody wanted to stress test our models I think uh that was the perfect two years into stress test so I think other was great well yes sir I I think I think every everyone's passed the stress test with flying colors uh uh We've you know there was uh the risk as well as the possibility of accidents in the financial space but that hasn't been the case and that really counts for the resilience of the sector but you know you talked about some of the key milestones and those were the Milestones as far as the public infrastructure side is concerned the digital pipe so to speak but let's talk about what we've seen happen on the regulation front uh there have been many changes and in many ways regulation is also kept pace with the Innovation that we've seen on the infrastructure side uh November 30th has been a crucial uh Milestone with the RBI also changing the guidelines as far as digital lending is concerned how is that likely to change the landscape how's that likely to change the complexion of this sector going forward so um I think look I mean RBI has basically been reiterating um a whole bunch of guidelines it already had in place or you know so close it and already in place I think you know in the fintech sector we have been kind of um not kept up to reading some of those guidelines and I think it was uh just a reiteration of all those guidelines from an RBI perspective and I think if you couple that with a bunch of things that happened in the uh you know not so great on the retail uh lending side um I think RBI just came down and very clearly spelled out the rules for everybody so I think from that perspective I think a lot more clarity has come in having said that I think the only thing all of us require it will be Banks of fintechs and uh you know through an accident even Regulators is consistency so we just need to kind of understand what specific role that people expect us to play um tell us the rules and the uh you know the guardrails that we need to submit ourselves to and I think that's really what we should be held accountable for and I think uh you know I just believe that over a period of next few months RBI will probably come out with the final set of circulars that will help us to kind of very clearly chart out that this is what fintechs will be able to do as opposed to regulated entities and I think that would be welcome from I think definitely from us yeah I would imagine that predictability and consistency uh is something that fintechs will be looking forward to but actually let me address that issue with you uh you know many fintechs at this point in time are looking aspirationally at an nbfc license nbfcs are looking at a bank license and of course there's a whole plethora of other licenses in between but as far as clear is concerned you moved your journey from Clear tax to clear now what role do you believe you see yourself playing in this landscape right sharing um so one of the key things that we think about like first addressing the question of uh the fintech evolution uh I think the the key thing is picking a lane for most fintechs and nbfcs right pick a lane and like double down on that lane for example our lane is that we are a technology platform and we think like uh we are best suited to partner with the banks and nbfcs and and that is how our scale will come so we've picked a lane that look uh the the RBI is expressed clear clear cleared clear Lanes in terms of like hey regulator regulated entities and data entities customer entities and what have you so our goal is like to sharply focus on being a technology platform and digital platform and scaling that up and getting customers to reach us uh and helping Banks Capital to reach customers at scale so that's one coming back to the clear text to clear question that has been a massive journey in terms of starting from digital taxes to as uh as the panelists mentioned like the digitization of GST which was digital taxes digital invoicing with electronic invoicing Digital Way bills the account aggregator stuff is helping get access to bank accounts and GST data for Lending purposes and what have you so that scale is coming so from our perspective we started with one product for digital taxes and now we have seven products which serve massive number of customers on different problems we serve like about 4 000 large Enterprises which are like largely public companies and what have you and about 400 000 small businesses medium-sized businesses which are like smaller businesses for different kinds of problems so but the consistent digitization agenda which India has is is helping us scale our business and continuously offer digitization and technology and credit to Indian businesses at scale at other you know both these gentlemen here representing the fintech side quote unquote supremely optimistic about the decade ahead and you know we've been over the course of uh the making uh through our three seasons been talking about the digital transformation Journey that India has made and the kind of opportunities that it throws up I want to understand from you where we find things in terms of partnership and collaboration uh in this current growth phase between fintechs and Banks so firstly I sort of share the optimism that both archit and RAM have mentioned around not just the optimism but the sense of sort of almost pride in the way that the Indian tech stack has developed in the way that the uh the government and other bodies have encouraged in open architecture so that's absolutely uh fundamental and to answer your question Shireen that's probably led to the kind of uh thought process and uh and fintech Industry that we we now have which is very robust and is trying to solve different parts of the uh of the various problems that that we've spoken about so I think Partnerships are absolutely fundamental uh to the way that Banks need to also operate there's absolutely I mean clearly Banks need to have a lot of understanding of the problem set themselves but equally Solutions are out there in the industry and perhaps there is less value in recreating the wheel for every uh financial institution but to work with partner us along the way to be able to solve all those problems because everybody has their Niche and their strengths uh to which banks can work and and take advantage uh take advantage of so we're already into several Partnerships with fintechs uh and uh and and with uh you know like the Treads or the other sort of systems that are coming up as as public goods infrastructure uh so we certainly uh feel that this is a a there is enough and more space left Ram spoke about you know one crore MSM is just being on gstn and you know another four or five throws not yet on it I I would add to that that even the one crore uh I I don't think that all of them are served to the extent or even to a reasonable fractional extent at the at the micro end of that channel [Music] I want you to comment as well on this ecosystem impact that we're talking about and where you see future collaboration and partnership and the need for future collaboration and partnership around yeah so you know if you really look at it uh the real mom and pop shops the 40 million out there really need interest rates that today the you know the largest companies get less than one percent a month or less than half percent a month because that's what the margins are in their business uh they really need the interest cost to be very low now I think the biggest thing that fintechs like us can do with banks like HSBC uh and rajat is to help them to kind of reduce the risk premium that they have for Lending out to these mom and pop shops reduce their cost of servicing these small ticket loans reduces cost of identifying these you know the right borrowers from that lot and I think if we can kind of to be that Eyes Ears you know distributions uh chain for the large Banks who have low cost of funds and who possibly can lend out far cheaper than they're lending out today and we can change their cost economics of doing that and still make it very profitable for them I think that's really the role that we can play and I think that's the role that at least From wayana perspective I am very interested that we play that's one and the second is the I think you know you know fintech has a general you know I think perception is all about software technology systems artificial intelligence machine learning and all those fancy terms I think the fundamental thing we'll need as we go down this chain and talk to 40 million guys you know small and pop shops is empathy and I think uh that's really you know I'm really that's one idea that I am at least personally kind of really trying to focus on how do you build empathy into this old model of lending out to because these are guys who probably the slightest shock will not be able to repay or will have some stress no if I mean yes go ahead go ahead I think it's a really interesting point that Ram raises you to get the cost of financing down for the micro segment and one of the prerequisites for that is the cost of transaction the frictional cost of transaction which I think we are in a really good path uh basis all that we've discussed on this call the other is the cost of credit I mean in India if you follow what's happening to the credit Journey the wholesale credit which was the problem let's say back in 2016 17 18 is now a fraction of what it used to be uh and and you know lots of steps have helped in that the SMA model the bankruptcy code and all of those things and that is no longer the problem for the banking sector uh but if you think of where msme default rates are is still quite high and they are not trending down so whilst we say that there's information collateral and you know there's this massive uh amount of credit that is being served by unorganized you know lenders Etc and that needs to move into formal system we do have to solve the problem of credit here uh and and we have to make sure that what we call information collateral which is what you'll get from from the segment that Ram refers to works well it has worked in other sectors so am I optimistic yeah I am optimistic about it it's worked in let's say microfinance because they had a certain hypothesis which has been tested over a period of time but you do need a hypothesis because if you end up with 10 11 you know the objective of lending reasonably and cheap because debt itself will become the overhang on a micro or very small uh you know businesses and that and that itself will be the downfall of those businesses so you you must get the cost down but for that you have to get it back under credit control without which this won't work yeah I think that's a very important point that both RAM and you raise let me get archit to comment on that uh and extend that a little further to talk about some of the headwinds or the challenges that you foresee archit you know we've all talked about the opportunity as well as the significant Headroom for growth but what you believe are the key challenges uh that a company like yours is faced with at this point in time just I address the question of like the fintech and Bank collaboration and then head on to the so in my view is uh like I I think and that also ties into your question of headwinds I I think fintechs uh generally like have an advantage on reach and technology so those are the two big advantages which fintech will bring right like reach technology and do a degree data but the data Advantage still has to play out right either the the reality is mixed because as rajat mentioned and RAM mentioned right information based collateral hasn't necessarily led to lower uh statistically lower NPS at scale right like uh the 11 percent I think the the compression in the bnpl consumer industry is a very strong evidence of no data LED Advantage working out like at scale and meaningfully because when the the that model has been pressure tested and stress tested it has not stood up uh we have a different hypothesis here uh at clear a global hypothesis if you will that generally like unless you're way a very scaled horizontal nbfc uh where you are committed to mbfc and technology is supporting like maybe you are a bank or you are a or a new kind of a credit card maybe that is a model which may have sustenance otherwise we believe that like a vertical SAS or deeper SAS coupled with uh coupled with financial services is a much much more scalable model for fintechs and leads to deeper collaborations with banks because then what happens is you have a sustainable business model on on your technology platforms and reach is paid for and then you are monetizing on top so the monetization could come in the form of payments monetization could come in the form of lending and what have you and other financial services and that creates incentives which are longer term and not just on the core valuation drive that that the 2021 leading up to the Bull Run had like where people had deployment targets and and AUM targets rather than having like uh rather than having like uh technology advantages technology modes like having the right business model which is aligned to the country's regulator and so you you saw all sorts of Divergence and like that now to a large degree is going away uh fundamental questions being are being asked in terms of what are your modes what are you bringing to the customer how are you adding value and if it's just financing I think that to me is a big question mark right like because you're not the uh you don't have advantage on cost of borrowing you don't have advantage in physical physical infrastructure which Raja talked about so I think like those questions I uh like we have a strong point of view that the right collaboration requires the fintech to have sustainability to partner with bank and create a right compounding business model for the next 10 years you know I I think you raised some very important existing this this is this is I think these are important questions that many are asking at this point in time what are the eventual votes as far as these fintechs are concerned what is going to be the future and the nature of Partnerships with banks going forward and more importantly what is the path to profitability what does monetization today look like for this industry so I think look I mean at the end of the day I think for any business to survive you have to be relevant to your customers and in the fintech case I think especially in models like ours where we actually work with banks and with small businesses and with large corporates I think all these customers have to find is relevant um you know and I think one of the big eduins uh really that I think uh inquired in this business um you know we talked about all the great factors but I think one of the big events is to just make sure that uh people feel comfortable about um you know technology people feel comfortable and I'm really talking again about the 40 million people I'm not talking about a particular moment workshops I'm not talking about the large corporates um so I think the key for us at least has been very simple we think that there is a huge volume as I said there's about 120 billion dollars a great credit required every month and even if you were to take very very small portion of it exceptionally small portion of it we just think in terms of in volume plates and sufficiently uh easy part of profitability I think the key thing is to remain Frugal ourselves you know I think one of the challenges of the startup is to try and ensure that we don't um you know become the cost of sources of cost to our customers um and I think that's really the key thing otherwise we would just be replacing one intermediary with another uh so I think as long as we do that and as long as we find Banks I think that the only issue that I think fintechs will have to kind of consider is not to become sourcing agents or Banks because I think that's a business model that I don't think banks will find long-term value with you know once a customer has been sourced once a customer has been serviced by the Banks they know the customer and I finally frankly they have the relevance to the customer I think the key thing really for us has been that how do we make sure that the you know the business of the customer keeps on improving and as you know one of my colleagues told me our business is only to put more money in the hands of our customer so as long as you kind of stay focused on that I think banks and other customers would want to kind of keep us in the game and if he can be frugal enough I think we can be profitable pretty easily okay well you know I don't know about how easy it's going to be rajat you want to take a stab at that how easy is the path to profitability but more importantly to both the what we heard there from archit as well as uh uh from Ram where do you see this uh you know this collaboration this partnership evolving what is the ask as far as banks are concerned from fintechs at this point in time uh and also as far as HSBC itself is concerned take me through where things currently stand in your own Journey uh to use technology to be able to reach out to the underserved customer and what next uh is on the cards as far as the aspiration is concerned yeah I'll first you know we are we are a very large wholesale Bank in the country as you know and a lot of our effort in using technology for our client base has started with that uh segment uh so things like uh Universal transaction banking to help the trade Finance Journey virtual cards for corporates uh you know digital uh receivable factoring account opening seamlessly signing documents seamlessly Etc uh started with the corporate bank the reason I mentioned this although your question was around the underserved is because essentially the philosophy and the technology is uh you know is transferable and a lot of the work that we've done will get transferred into the msme sort of world itself so it's important that Banks like us have a good stack of products with our internal sort of systems or our core banking platform which are enabled to be able to accept uh seamlessly the volumes that are coming now the corporate volumes are relatively small but when you go to the sort of underserved or which is clearly a an important goal for us uh I think we we the fact that we've got these tax already ready will help us uh significantly of how fintechs may help us I think that's I've mentioned this before I think Partnerships in areas of their strength we find that different fintechs have different things that they can offer to us and our approach has been that we partner with them where uh you know there's a mutual sort of Coincidence of needs wants Etc uh and uh and and uh and I think archit made the point that we're not only looking at solving the financing challenge we're looking at solving the frictional challenges in transaction banking in exports and imports in foreign exchange etc etc these are all problems that msme's also face and we have to look at this holistically this whole problem system holistically well rajat RAM and archita thanks very much for joining us here on the making to take us through where things currently stand uh as far as India's fintech future is concerned and more importantly uh the targets the goals and the hypotheses that you're working on uh to ensure that we continue to scale and gain momentum from here on always a pleasure speaking with you we wish you the very best of luck thanks so much for joining us here on the making that's then on this edition of the making for now from all of us here on the team goodbye and many thanks for 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