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good morning uh ladies and gentlemen very sorry to make you wait for this uh session on synergies um apologies synergies are cool because this session was one of the first fully booked ones we have lots of interest in the topic of synergies we also heard from the first results the first input to the public consultation that three percent of respondents feel that synergies are not important three percent that means a lot of other people expect a lot from synergies so this is what we will discuss in this session we have everything in place to have a very dynamic interactive session you see a panel here of excellent speakers who have been involved in synergies who are maybe still bruised or scarred by the synergists but they will tell us all about it i'm kurt vandenberger i'm a director for planning and programming in dg research and i also have the privilege of being acting director for research and innovation outreach together with my colleague magda who is head of the unit for european research area widening including synergies so what we will discuss in this session for about an hour is how can we really facilitate and operationalize synergies between eu funds not just because we like synergies it is cool but we want to really maximize the impacts from the investments at european level we want every euro to go further and further than it has already done we want to make sure that we have the correct deployment of the results we get from all our programs and if programs can work together and the actors can work together across programs then we can have more of this deployment and we want of course more diffusion of knowledge of results of solutions and spreading the excellence that is a very important priority as well as i said the first analysis of the feedback we got to the public consultation confirms the very high interest in synergies so this is a message also to the commission to ourselves that we need to take this very seriously we have already done this we have worked together across services some of which are represented here today to make sure that we have the enabling provisions that we will need in the future in our programs these provisions are still subject to debate with the european council and the parliament so the session is also very timely in that sense because every feedback we get from you we will be able to make best use of it the negotiations are ongoing on horizon europe but also on the common provision regulation for the structural funds and you know that there is a public consultation open on the possible changes to the general block exemption regulation which governs the rules on state aids which of course are essential we have heard that from you for making the synergies work earlier today there was a session on synergies across all programs and the european uh budget in the future what we will do in this session here today is really focus on the synergies between horizon europe and the cohesion funds and how can we enhance the regional dimension in european union research and innovation while of course maintaining the principle of excellence but not polarizing between excellence and widening and cohesion but really make these two much better work together as i said we have an excellent panel of speakers with us today thank you very much for joining i will briefly introduce um leonard sipuri from the university of athens who have been who has been doing great work on the policy support facility exercise a mutual learning exercise between our member states and national administrations on synergies and you will tell us something about this elena mr christophe clejo regional councillor of the region of peggy delwar in france very active member of the committee of regents was roberto on horizon 2020 as well as rapporteur for horizon europe we received a letter earlier this week from mr clejo and a few other members of the committee of the regions again calling for much more ambition we're not daring enough and we need to do more to bring the regions in we hear you mr clejo i can assure you we also have mr jose carlos caldera a member of the board at inesc technology and science importantly mr caldera was is former president of portugal's national innovation agency and he has 25 years of experience with eu national and regional funding instruments so i think lots of experience you can share with us mr caldera and lastly but not leastly we have mrs jana volkova from the joint secretariat of the interreg central europe program who has also been involved in shaping an experimental call coordinating project results across funds notably horizon 2020 and interreg central europe actors of synergies with bruises and scars as i said but also very clear ideas i hope for the future how we can make it better and on the commission side we have four eminent colleagues from various dgs in the european commission i hope ladies and gentlemen that you experience during these rni days that this is not dg research and innovation talking with you these are all commissioned services that want to make it work with you and for you i would like to welcome magda de carli head of unit and director the director for research innovation outreach and dg research katya rappel who from comes from dg radio a very long ally with us on making horizon europe horizon programs and regional funds work together thank you very much for being here katya we have elizabeth mandel from dg competition which whom with whom we have worked a lot on all the state eight aspects thank you elizabeth for the cooperation and we have johan stirna who used to be working in dg research until recently but has joined or joined research center the institute in civilian who is very instrumental in the smart specialization strategies thank you also for being here johan let us can immediately go into the heart of the matter and i would like to ask lena maybe to start um we will keep the interventions short to the point five minutes maximum because we also want to privilege interaction with you in the audience and with the viewers on the live stream who are also following through internet lena please okay can you hear me great thank you very much kurt i have five minutes so five points and to start i want to say that while i agree with court that synergies are cool i have to say they suffer from things that are cool because they are sometimes misunderstood uh they are inflated and you risk losing the essence so my first point is you know if as a region or as a big institute you want to create synergies you have to start by understanding the concept we talk about the regional concept here i would argue that some big actors make a difference at the regional level but if you really go for the most ambitious part of the synergies uh then you can use the horizon asif synergies as a leverage for broader synergies because there are more funds than just horizon and as if there are national funds there are non-governmental organizations charities you name it so uh the concept of synergies is terribly important we need to understand it and we need to understand that it has various levels of ambition now if you read the paper that was commissioned by magda's unit you'll see that ambitions range from you know simply an actor in a region thinking okay i need two things these two things can be managed can be funded by horizon and as if i'll try to get both simultaneously or in parallel it doesn't matter this is just one idea a once off synergy and then we can range all the way to the highest ambitions and ireland is the best case i would argue slovenia is also a case you can look at where you the region says okay in a horizon of 10 years so more than one programming period using the smart specialization strategies we envisage to become excellent with various institutes with funds from the national budget or the regional budget with specific actors in two three four big areas so in this case you have the really what we call dynamic strategic synergies you go for the long-term horizon now of course everybody will argue that synergies are full of obstacles you can see on my background slide the most often cited obstacles and i want to say there are two different categories of obstacles they are the technical obstacles so what we heard most in the interviews was digicomp stated big obstacles i'm happy to hear that dg comp is improving in this direction the commission is doing its fair share you may read those of you who know me that i'm critical to the commission sometimes but in the particular area the commission is really improving from here to here from programming period to programming period i have my doubts about certain member states and that's one of my big questions to the commission what do you do with the member states that are not doing their fair share and of course researchers and regions complain to the national authorities why are you gold plating the synergies aspect so these are the areas audits regulatory frameworks competition where there are technical obstacles but these technical obstacles can be overcome there is another type of obstacles which are the i would call them the real obstacles the social obstacles and these are the obstacles where you need a change of mindsets it's it's behavioral economics and there are two aspects there one is inertia path dependency regional policy makers like to do what they know you know the devil likes what he knows best and the reason is because they don't risk much when they experiment they risk the risk under uh performance they risk under subscription the risk somebody telling them why did you change that because it was anyway fine so my point is that this is a real obstacle path dependency and the other real obstacle is uncertainty because horizon 2020 and horizon europe in the future is about excellence and needs to remain about excellence which means that there is an element of us uncertainty you can't plan you know if you are the cousin of the regional uh of the mayor or the regional authority somebody in the regional authority you can say okay i'll have a grant and i'm more or less sure i'll get it i'll apply to horizon 2020 i don't know if i'll get it you need dynamic synergies to increase the probability of getting funded you need to become excellent so for me these two elements of uncertainty and inertia are the 10 years horizon you want to fight for you want to change ireland did change it in uh 10 years time and i don't know if there are any irish people in the audience but i claim that part of the success of the celtic tiger was this change of mindsets and it was synergies because before they were called synergies actually so these are the main aspects uh what is synergies can it be used can it be used as a leverage how do i overcome and in what time horizon do i overcome the problems there are good and bad practices in the study you can read the good practices the good practices prove that the technical aspects are surmountable the seal of excellence wasn't but it will be in the future we're here and that's very good news and then you have to plan regionally how you overcome the real the path dependent the technical the non-technical aspects these are the good practices what are the bad practices the bad practices are about not experimenting not changing not understanding not being ambitious my advice then and i finish because my five minutes are over my advice is increase ambitions it's not bad to start low you still increase ambitions if you start from nowhere but have a time horizon with increasing ambitions redesign cooperation the breaking silo silos the institutional aspects are not negligible you have to fight for them there are good practices for that target synergies and not expect them to happen and experiment experiment experiment these are the ideas of the study and i recommend you to read it if you want to go for it because there are many good examples you can learn from thank you thank you very much lena and indeed the report of the mutual exercise mutual learning exercise is publicly available we all need to become irish or slovene so if you want to become my resource ravine please read the mutual learning exercise report mr clergy do we all need to become irish please over to you i iron is a small country so it's easier than in very big ones so regional element is very important in large countries so i'm coming from pilar region from the city of north our new european innovation capital so congratulations i think we could have some element of uh evidence-based element to a discussion so sorry for my poor english i will try to give my main ideas uh with my nuts then perhaps in the discussion it will be is your first thing for us and i totally agree with lena the debate is not about coordination between uh research european policy and cohesion policy it's about ambition and it's about how innovation ecosystems regional ecosystems can be actors to reach the goals of uh horizon europe and the ambition to help to to reach the ambition of european union and our main problem is that place-based approach of research on innovation is not a core idea in horizon europe there has been some progress but it's still not the core idea and we think it's still possible to do new things to look for new solutions uh the synergist question is still uh in the parliament the council so we have debates and we have to do better and we have to do better together so what for it's not about just transferring money from the regions to a commission it's not just about getting money to seal of excellence is about joining our forces and building together new projects and new ideas and this necessity a change of method a change of approach we need to act together to beat together new projects and to finance together new projects new bottom-up projects new bottom-up approach and region agree to pull money from their budget or from equation policy if there is co-design co-construction of policies on projects this is the main idea we are fighting for so how we can do that we have on the slide our five seals are the five complementary pillars to succeed in synergies the first one is the full recognition of local collective initiatives on ecosystems it's a grc evidence-based production you produce four recent studies about boston ljubljana godborg espo you show our innovation ecosystem bring new solutions a new result for the european dynamic so this must be fully recognized second element coherence of political objectives but if you want to have coherent political objectives it's not about aligning regional authorities on european objectives it's about debating together and deciding deciding together about what what must be our common goals and our common objectives and we have a problem with strategic planning yes there is research innovation there is a very good opportunity to participate but then where will it be possible to discuss how is it how to manage the program all over the years is there any place for stakeholders is there any place for parliament is there any place for region we think no we think that's only place for commission and member states and if there is no debate about how to make the implementation of your european union europe program it would be very difficult to have complementarity of policies between a european national and regional level then third one forf1 compatibility leads to deal with the state problem will go and we are allies to fight this problem and the fifth one is again co-construction and co-design of policies if co-financing and this should be could be a revolution a radical shift for dj research so just collectively let's be disruptive i'm sure all of you would like to and then to conclude there is a potential tool to implement this disruption it is for us european partnership if if european partnership is not only synonymous for a limited list of programs built between commission member states and big business but a method to implement europe and europe across pillars two and three and strengthen joint support to bottom-up projects lead by ecosystem and this is a very important debate for us will it be possible to have coffin on two co-program actions coming from the regions coming bottom up um sometimes corresponding with the list of partnership or mission and perhaps not it can it must be open and last word to sum up my point of view the questions of synergy is not about pulling money but joining forces on creating new fields for co-construction and co-design of research on innovation projects and policies thank you thank you very much mr clejo there can never be enough co-creation co-design and co-involvement a message well understood um let me then go to mr caldera please to give your perspective from portugal well thank you very much first of all thank you very much for the invitation can i have the slide there that i put it there um well i was asked because i have experience supposedly on this to bring some examples so i have a very only one example uh that i like to show if it's possible it's not not the previous one the other the previous slide not this one the next one yeah this one so this is an example of synergies and i like it particularly because first of all is very old so it's not from the horizon 2020 is not from the seventh framework program is from the sixth framework program so which means i've been working on synergies for 15 years now it's also a very complex complete example because it combines utilization of infrastructures funded at national regional level to test and validate results from european projects which is the first case so there was a european project to develop advanced technology for customized production and these results was were tested in a pilot plan existing in virginia in italy for the shoe industry and then there is the other type of synergy which is cross fertilization which is critical it's very very important for europe which is for those horizontal technologies like like cats to be able to to transfer them to other sectors and so there was a sector in portugal a company metal working completely different from shoes of course that was facing the same problem customized products so we used national funds to take the result from the european project that was being tested and validated in the show industry to bring it to a high precision metal working company so and also combines a more mature sector with a more advanced sector so this is an example of synergies that i had in my past life and as it was mentioned i was lucky enough to have the opportunity the privilege after these experiences to be chairman of the national innovation agency can you give me the other slide so when i get there when i got there the first thing i did was to make this slide which is a slide that shows the different instruments existing at national and at national european level to fund the entire innovation cycle including grants loans fiscal inc fiscal incentives so and in one slide they can show companies what they can use what is there because before that if a company want to know this they have to talk with three different organizations for an sme this is nightmare so i can show them all the instruments existing and how they can combine them to cover the innovation cycle okay so it's so and this is a little bit from this experience that i took my notes to say three things one we should we should not start discussing instruments we should start discussing strategy because then from the strategies then we are able to think about which instruments and what what combination on instruments then we need to implement that strategy so that's why the risk three strategy or european strategies are in my opinion so important and this should be the starting point we need to have a clear understanding to that we have to consider the old innovation cycle not only the research part we need to understand the innovation ecosystem as it was mentioned and their actors and to ensure a flow of knowledge and people along the innovation cycle so we need to then to then we can design the instruments needed to support this um and the what what we need to fund at which level which kind of funding level that we can assure this so which it's basically how can we set up and support an innovation ecosystem which is capable of promoting this industrial transformation and and have a territorial impact um namely via innovation diffusion as it was mentioned and also interregional collaboration which is also very important in these cases and to do that my first message is apart from many other things that was mentioned it's very important it's fundamental to reinforce the capability of regions and managing authorities which means more people but especially more skills and knowledge to develop and implement risk three and to do that my concrete suggestion is that there should be an envelope under technical assistance specifically to do that so regions cannot use it to anything else except for that that will be my first suggestion now the second comment is about synergies as it was mentioned there are different types of synergies and unfortunately every time i talk about synergies usually i hear the most complex cases which are combining in the same operation different types of funds and this is the most it's a nightmare by the way it's the most complex thing well could be in the legislation very nice try to implement it in practice it's a nightmare and then we with that we forget that there are other types of synergies which are simpler not simple simpler but very very important and we are not pushing for them which are for example complementary funding sequencing finally like i showed that there for take for for takeover of results for pushing more into innovation cycle also support cross fertilization and so we should consider the at what i call the three types so complementary the the more complex one which is this this funding is this joint funding and one in the middle which for me it's also very important which are called collaborative funding which means we have a common goal but we gather under the same umbrella of this common goal different types of of projects funding with different type of instruments so they are independent so they are not so complex but they are under the same type of of objective and this is very important particularly for for some inter-regional collaboration as it was mentioned before so about one year ago i was asked by some people from the commission talk about this and i made my wish list for this christmas for this next christmas what i would like to have in this next christmas so which means more or less at the end of this negotiation so i made this three wish list first one the european erdf regulation so the european erdf should have a sentence there very clear very simple saying if regions or countries want to replicate horizon europe instruments with structural funds they can point they can replicate okay independently of the rules of the national year it's not mandatory if they want they can replicate the exact instruments because it's critical for synergies that we not only simplify but we we harmonize the instruments and the rules so this is the first push if they want to replicate they can do it and this is very important so it is means in legible costs the evaluation criterias whatever there are two things that i accept that can be different the funding rate because of course i know that if you are using structural funds there are issues with the funding rate maybe not 100 like in european so it could be 70 50 whatever it's a large company that's okay for me the funding rate is okay and eventually also the type of beneficiaries because if in some again some uh structural funds they're only for smes so we cannot fund large companies but that's okay but the rules the regulations the instruments should be possible to do the same the second wish is if a set of regions as it was mentioned here before if a set of regions decided to go together and with their own funds start common projects common program again align with the missions or independently if they put their own minds they can do it and they could use structural funds and if they use similar instruments like european ones they should get a generous top-up yes so an incentive to harmonize rules to to simplify things that would be an incentive from dude and my third suggestion is my third wish list is if those regions decide but by the way this is still what i call a virtual common port so it's not a real common plot so each region will find defending they will get together each region will still be funding their own uh beneficiaries so it's not going to find others so that that should be clear otherwise it will be very difficult for regions to accept this now the third one is if those regions instead of creating new managing authorities new funding bodies decide to uh deliver the the central management of this program to the european commission and the european rules with the same rules in that case uh they should this should be state aid compliance so which means they should be like rise in europe and these are my three wish lists my three wishes and then i have the questions a bit later but that will if if i get this one i'll be very happy thank you very much thank you very much mr caldera we do not only have christmas we also have santa claus in belgium and i hope they will listen to you um last speaker is mrs jana volkova please so very interested to hear your experience also from the interick project thank you i'm delighted to be here on behalf of center interreg central europe which is a european territorial cooperation program that funds transnational cooperation in 76 regions across central europe and our program has always encouraged the projects to create synergies and to cooperate with projects funding funded from different funding schemes and initiatives but recently we have started thinking what we can actually do for the people living in the regions to better benefit from research results from projects funded by horizon and we were very lucky to have a support from the program member states that actually approved an idea to open a pilot call experimental call bringing actors from our projects together with actors from horizon and fp7 projects we were cooperating on this pilot exercise with dgrtd with unit for common data and knowledge management and that was a great help for us so the call that was open had pilot character mainly into elements one was that there was a rule that had it had to build on uh existing results from projects from at least two projects from uh interac central europe and one project funded by centrally managed funding funding scheme horizon 2020 or fp7 but also others like life cost me etc and another element that was new to this call was really a strive for impact so we asked the beneficiaries not to submit proposals to develop something new in a new landscape of partnership with partners from horizon but really to build on the results that they have developed in their previous projects so it was capitalization exploitation call these were the focus um this was the focus but before we launched the call we actually ran a survey with our beneficiaries to ask them if they are interested in doing this and if they find this as an added value for the regions and the results of the survey showed that more than um two-thirds of our beneficiaries found this very important but actually most of them didn't work in organizations that would have been involved in horizon 2020 projects so it wasn't really easy for them to find the partners and to really uptake the research results in what they were doing for uh the regions at the regional level and those who actually worked in organizations that were also involved in horizon projects like universities because this is one-fifth of our beneficiaries anyway still the level of uptake and the bridging between results and what is being done in horizon projects and interact projects was very low so we realized very quickly that if we want to launch this experimental call we will have to invest a lot a lot of energy and pay attention to matchmaking and to provide a lot of support to the beneficiaries so we organized couple of matchmaking events one horizon infidel here in brussels um cross fertilization workshop in vienna and we also developed together with dg rtd image making tool that helped our beneficiaries um easier find partners from horizon 2020 that work on the same topics and that they could actually create the partnership synergies and benefit from that so these were the support measures and we also invested quite a lot of time in individual consultations with our applicants to really explain to them what we expect and what the logic of this call is and the results so far are that we got 23 the call is very small financially but we got 23 very good proposals um from which it's obvious that the that the the applicants really got the logic and that they really found the right partners to join forces and submit to interrupt c to our call we are still in the assessment phase so there's not much more that i could share with you at this moment but in these 23 proposals i can what we know is that they were building on 46 horizon projects and 46 interact ce projects so this there's quite a strive to go beyond the minimal rules that we have set in the call so it also shows the commitment of the actors really to join forces and build bridges um some of the proposals i mean i can give you an example some of them work in preservation of cultural heritage at risk due to hazardous events like floods and landslides and they are using the copernicus services and data processing and models integrated from h horizon 2020 experience to actually help protecting cultural heritage so that there are some uh really nice ideas and examples how um uh research results from horizon projects can be used actually in uh in regions and in what our projects are doing um for the lessons learned probably it's a bit too early to draw any at this stage and we would need to see the projects from at the um in the implementation and at the end of the implementation to see what the impact of this call was but if there are any representatives of other funding schemes that would like to try this pilot activity out maybe the first lessons learned from us is it's important to select topics that have really good potential for exploitation they have high technology readiness level they focus on close to market solutions and deployment-oriented topics for us it was important to go mainstream and not niche because that really facilitates the matchmaking if you go for niche very specific topics might be harder for the regional actors to find the good actors um uh working on the topics in the research field and what was important and that's what i have already mentioned is we needed to invest a lot of energy in promotion and providing support to the beneficiaries to really find good partners and develop good applications uh so my two key messages just to wrap up would be uh it's important to focus on nurturing if we want the synergies to actually happen and we ask the partners in the regions to to do something about it we also need to probably help them in in doing so because they might be interested in doing so but the process is just not at this moment in central europe happening naturally and second message will be the strife and focus on higher impact so for us it was really important that they are not starting um to work on new topics but they really built on what has been developed in their previous projects and they capitalize and exploit these results so that's probably it and my question that i formulated relates to this slide so i don't know if it's the right moment to ask we can come back to that if you agree um thank you very much mr volkova that's a really interesting experience and we want to see a lot more of this experimentation many good things start small and then grow and we hope that your experiment will definitely grow ladies and gentlemen you've heard very very complementary four very complementary perspectives a lot of food for thought but especially food for work for the commission services and all of us because synergies will not happen because the commission wants it synergies will happen if we're all involved in this i will turn in a minute to my colleagues for a few quick reactions but the idea of course of the rni days is that we listen to you the commission is not here to make promotion for itself but really to listen uh to you so before i turn to my colleagues i want to see if there are people in the room uh among you who have some burning question some burning id you want to share or some irresistible emotion to share with everyone with anyone here on the panel yes please please briefly introduce yourself and try to keep it to a tweet-like message my name is miroslav altof i'm representing the ju shift to rail the initiative based on rail transport and my question is how we can probably use the synergies with regions in order to promote the potential of a railway transport in the regional fundings and working together as a ppp activity because there is the public private partnership activity and that's already an answer to mr claire jones one of mr clejo's uh calls i think from partnerships the role of partnerships in putting off synergies yes please hello my name is anja sorduna i'm the executive director of aspire another ppp working with the process industries we definitely welcome the combination of funds we don't see it easy and there is a reference here that the european partnerships can definitely support on the core design with the regions we have in our roadmap an idea of the hubs for secularity that addresses and targets specifically the regions and smart cities to a certain extent but there are more than 300 whatever number 373 i think regions in europe how do we approach all of them we are a team of four and that's the reality of all the partnerships so that would be very interesting how can we approach them how can we collaborate with the commission or with the committee of the regions or with interact in the case of the interact programs in which i was also working some years ago to to collaborate on that how do we do the matchmaking and the co-creation very important question there's a lady over there i'll take two or three more and then turn to my colleagues in the commission thank you very much i'm sarah english from scotland house here in brussels and also part of the erin and vanguard initiative networks i suppose to the panel but also perhaps the colleague there i think one of the things that's maybe slightly missing from the conversation from the point through the conversations we have about synergies and the rules of the regions is that we're awfully focused on the funding synergies and i think a lot of the synergies and this comes back to your point come from more about work on policy work working about how we and coming back to your point how do we take learning and examples and accelerate them or scale them up and these are conversations that are happening in another room here about redefining prosperity looking at scottish examples how that can be helpful to other european economies i think we need to have that conversation also in the context of the regions because regions aren't only focused on money that we get from the eu we're also fairly focused on the learning the development the commitments that we make through our eu work to improving our actual situation on the ground and that's just important to discuss with a european level with a commission how we do that and we do it also through networks we do it through policy exchange and that's maybe that's needs more focus than just the funding synergies thank you and that's where the new generation of regional smart specialization strategies can of course make a big difference there's a gentleman over there yes please thanks very much uh david fenner i work for saxony arnold one of the german regions and we're actually also a member of erin and vanguard as well but um apart from that uh i just wanted to ask um we've talked a lot about smart specialization you mentioned it just now as well the kind of regional dimension of this whole thing and um my question would be how do we how do we bring that together with with horizon in terms of the new programs that we have now the new opportunities that we maybe have in pillar three as well and things specifically of the uh innovation ecosystems program now it's quite a small program not that much money so when you think about that kind of program what value it would provide where could it basically be used as kind of a catalyst to bring together regional innovation ecosystems along kind of certain smart specialization priorities for instance what are your what are your thoughts on that we hear you sir um this is exactly the intention of the rni days is that you give us the ideas um and i can assure you there's a lot being said here we take everything on board we will not be able to deliver on everything but we definitely listen to you and we will try to do as much as what you wish for to the extent possible is there any last comment question of someone yes please hi my name is patrice bucholt from innovation policy matters um when we started the smart specialization strategy i think the essence of the message was that a region should not try to copy each other and and all go for the same fashionable high-tech strategy but you know go from their own strength from their own um capabilities and so forth so i i think that means we have to accept some sort of uh diversity because we we have different uh ecosystems and i have the feeling that because the discussion here is so much about the funding of horizon 2020 by horizon europe which which has a sort of a new philosophy for going for for bigger impact emissions uh sustainable development goals are are we not risking that we lose the the essence of the smart specialization strategy go for your own strength and not try to find a solution in in in the money from horizon uh europe because maybe the solution is not there so um yeah where where has the smart specialization strategy gone okay well maybe johan will be able to say something about this or uh magda colleagues can i turn to you maybe for a few quick reflections we don't have time for long uh presentations but um what have you heard that you will take back uh in the work we will do together in the next few months now maybe start with katya then magda then elizabeth and then yohan katya please yes thank you very much i'm very pleased that practically everything i wanted to say has already been sent by the different panelists who were there stressing that no it is not only about money it really is about strategies and if you'd asked me what's the key it's governance governance governance and if you manage to bring the actors from different governance levels the european the program committees whatever together with the people who are implementing regional development funds and at national regional level this is already key and i would like to add one of the good examples which really shows that if you have a governance which is coherent it does work i would like to list estonia among the countries which manage it's the very same minister apparently sitting in the same building in the same corridor who manages the erdf research and innovation investments and who is going to the horizon program committees no wonder that the two pieces fit together and they're very well informed what the other side does so very happy to hear this very happy also to hear you mentioned the sequential funding because that is where you really have an influence as a member state or region you build up the well the research innovation capacities which are core of an ecosystem regional innovation ecosystem if you have no capacities you're going nowhere you have not necessarily the control but you have the actors on the ground and can pull them together and work together and shape up yes to pick up on the question the smart specialization priorities which are and should be very specific for your territory we had so much dreaming and scheming of becoming little silicon valleys and stuff which is just totally off the shot we heard horizons about excellence and it should be about excellence nobody can be excellent in everything but everybody can be excellent in one or maybe two areas and that is what smart specialization really is about to find out what you have the strength and what you can do picking up a little bit on the questions which came on rail i think and one other ppp the thing is or the good news is you won't need to contact all what is it 377 managing authorities for the rdf for the 200 which have research investment for seen it's not necessary because not everybody will invest in transport related research innovation or in in industrial specific industrial applications it will be just some and that's what smart specialization is about to help identify the regions where there is a strength and where they would really have the potential to cooperate for these very specific things so looking at johannes diana next to me that is what the colleagues tried to digest in in the databases you can talk about more easily and helping to team up among the regions to do exactly what you asked for to bring together the regions and see what they can do together so um for me i have to say i'm very happy with the comments which came in um maybe a little bit of response to jose caldera on the the dream of being able to replicate horizon ways of intervention i think your dream has come true that's at least if council and parliament have the kindness to support that and not build in some other blocks eight intensities apart but from the other side there are possibilities if the member states wish so but to end again with a complementarity horizon doesn't fund research infrastructures it just doesn't so you can't try to replicate anything but there is nothing to replicate on the horizon side thank you katya and there are representatives of member states in this room who i have seen already i'm sure they will transmit the messages and we can also become estonian now if i understand correctly magda please so thanks thanks for all the comments extremely interesting we have been discussing with a few of you already in the past the ideas and it's good that they're brought in into the surface again uh of course we have been listening and we have been working a lot together as i always say i'm seeing my colleagues more than my husband most of the time we are working very closely together so and i think we have reached a lot and our colleagues from dg comp as well will tell you because we were listening and we understood that some of the issues were linked in fact to the application of state aid and through some examples that the seal of excellence we have been then moving to co-funded projects and tried to see eventually how we can uh simplify the application of a state aid in terms of regions and but i leave the floor then to my colleague in terms of the region's participation in horizon of course very welcome to partnerships so it's very open to all actors including regions uh this we know uh you have been mentioning as well the region's regional ecosystem how they can eventually have a role as well and we can co-create and call and work together so there is a specific as you know pillar three that specifically mentioned this uh this opportunity and we have the partnerships as well uh where there are co-fund actions and this is a way in which as well we try to simplify as much as possible the participation eventually of horizon to support these type of partnerships when the objectives aligns as well with the ones of of horizon so there are a lot of uh some issues still to to to discuss in the implementation but there is definitely a lot of willingness and a lot of progress as well done in terms of simplifications with the with the application of uh state aid so maybe i just pass it thank you thank you thank you well having listened to your interventions my first takeaway would be that and not surprisingly i'm aware that state aid rules are considered or sometimes they are seen to to complicate things are seen as a burden but i'm also happy to to hear as a first reaction to the current ongoing revision of the cheaper that you consider this to be a very positive approach towards simplification um talking about this limited or targeted review of the cheaper court court mentioned in the very beginning i i'm not i don't know if we can make dreams come true but at least i i hope we hope that we might chase some nightmares and make them go away just to to tell you a few things about the the current cheaper review it's very targeted it's meant to accompany horizon europe and mff discussions um there are basically three fields of of intervention first there are provisions on the etc second provisions on invest eu and third and i think that's the most relevant provisions for for for us here that's uh provisions concerning projects which fall under the scope of horizon europe that is research projects you've already mentioned lena the seal of excellence issue actually there will be or we propose to have in the future a provision which um allows for block exempted funding for rdi projects conducted by smes who have been awarded a seal of excellence but in the end and that is the sense that we're not able to to receive funding from the horizon europe envelope so if member states in the future want to support such a seal of excellence project they will hopefully um [Music] their life will be easier hopefully in the future because we propose to have a new article in the cheaper which allows them to build their assessment on the assessment already done by horizon europe experts so that they don't have to assess the project twice for example as rdi quality is concerned for example and they'll also be able to use rules eligibility rules from horizon europe which in the end should put the beneficiary in a situation which is not that different from the situation where he would be in if he had received a rise in europe funding this certainly also comes at a cost i mean i've already mentioned that there are some requirements some safeguards because we want to make sure that there is there isn't a project block exempted which might be distortive as i've already mentioned it must be a project of an sme for example i don't want to go into into too much details just to to give you uh an idea of what's happening in the moment thank you very much elizabeth and thank you for the cooperation on this it's been a long-standing aim and a project of collaboration between us my experience in public policy making is that our aim should not be to make people happy but to take reasons away for being unhappy and i think that's what we're trying to do johan we have no more time left but i would like to hear from you on missions yes i'll try to take up on the point of small specialization we've had you know five years now we have constructed a very strong new um instrument and a process uh where you build on the diversity and you reinforce the strength and now we have the new mission oriented policy so i think synergies could be constructed through policy design and and and whenever thought about that and we evaluate where we are you could think that it's important that when you define the new missions that you do it on the right level of granularity so you put it at a relatively high level so you allow for the diversity that comes bottom up you can even think about that the mission boards when they defined they could go out and discuss and talk to the regions to have chosen to specialize in the field that the missionary will cover i think that will create a possibility of good synergies and respecting the diversity and another thing i think is to think that when regions join in on missions it should be on a voluntary basis and there's a lot of things uh with when you have a common directionality you can gain a lot you can gain a lot and there's a lot of things about that and the third level i think it's important that when we talk about missions it's not a polar mission it's not an over engineering we are not setting every small details and what will happen so it's very important to keep the bottom-up creativity in a mission-oriented approach you allow for the internet entrepreneurial discovery process to to to create this diversity and create economies of scope as well not only scholars of scale to turn the diversity in europe into value into new value chain and into new jobs thank you very much johan i'm on severe instruction to close the session on time at 11 30 but at my own risk and peril and because i feel guilty of having arrived too late i really would like to turn back maybe for a last sentence two or four panel members and ask you is there anything that you have heard that makes you happy or very worried or something you want to draw attention to if you can in one sentence and i'll start on this side and then end with uh mr clejo please i think is it no it's working in one sentence yeah so from the perspective of the regions it's important to have the discussion about the strategy but we shouldn't forget that the regents and the actors in that really also need the financial support to actually make things happen so we shouldn't forget about it thank you mr calderon well i'm happier than i was when i heard great yeah so i think we are going moving the right way in right away and i i think just the last sentence i think this capability of doing this virtual port multi synergies funding mechanism is critical for this inter regional collaboration and for example this new instrument the c5 that is still under discussion should be worked out to facilitate these things so as i said i'm happier so i'm i'm i'm hoping that if not all of my dreams at least some of them will come true and no more nightmares thank you very much please lina yes uh i'm i was happy to hear about the cycle and closing the cycle i'm unhappy because it wasn't mentioned often enough and my suggestion is to look a little bit when you design your original synergies at the lesson that we have that innofin was not used for synergies because the eib wants projects that uh can make profit and because region regional policies are about increasing gdp please look at that as well close the cycle thank you very much and the last word is for the committee of regions two bad news and a good one first bad news don't believe it will be possible to finance projects from regional ecosystem in periphery there is no money in an innovation ecosystem so you have to fight it it's possible to finance it in pillar too and second bad news i don't believe in ppp if there are top-down dynamic they must combine top-down investment it's necessary and real bottom-up initiative real complementary bottom-up initiative and the good news perhaps we are together step by step coming from an era when it was about mobilization of researchers and perhaps in the future our policies would be mobilization of ecosystems and actors joined around new same policies and same objectives thank you very much mr clejo thank you to all the panel members thank you to my colleagues from the commission services thank you to peter schenke and other colleagues who have organized this session most importantly thank you for to you for being here for participating the public consultation is still open until tomorrow on the general block exemption regulation and on horizon europe co-design strategic plan and implementation strategy until the 4th of october we still want to hear from you please help us deliver on the synergies we want to make it very appealing very attractive very easy but never force anyone to do anything that you don't want thank you very much and see you later