Empower Your Product Management Team with the Best Lead Nurturing System for Product Management

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all right well hello my name is rich Baumann they've given me 40 minutes you is so bored if I talk for 40 minutes so we'll crack into a little bit about me and about the course is about what it means to be a product manager gets of my folks around it if that's of interest to you and I'm going to leave a lot of time for questions and answers if you have any and then we can talk offline if you don't want to raise your question in front of everybody so when I first signed up for this several months ago I was a head of digital product strategy at Goldman Sachs and I'll talk to you about my background but more recently I've decided to go it alone a little bit I've got a lot of experience and so I'm actually working at a startup called Vox Mart they do voice and instant messaging compliance and I'm about to start a job helping the relics group it's a big company that has a series of subsidiaries that provide analytical and data capabilities mostly to the financial markets and I'm going to help both of those companies with their digital product strategy so that's why it went from and as you saw it went from energy director to former managing director at Goldman Sachs but it's a nice change so just to talk to you about what I'm gonna speak about here talk a little bit about Who I am and I'm going to be indulged myself a little bit here I don't like indulgent thinking too much as a product manager right but I'd like to tell you that a bit of that mine generally because one of the questions I'm going to ask you that pin to answering is this product management right for you and many of you may be in product management want to become a better product manager or you might be questioning like you know is it right for me so maybe well we'll touch on some of those things and what it takes to be successful in product management high opinion and sort of subjective you know is it right for you how I think we can help you is the product school and I'll go through the agenda of the product management as mentioned at the beginning and then you can ask me any questions that you've got hopefully what I won't be doing is the blah blah blah blah blah which is very sorry I'm talking about me I've already told you what I'm doing at the moment my background and I've got a few years behind me is I started at this is a chronological order I started at Bloomberg so that's my career at Bloomberg and I took you through a little bit about that in a second because I think it's kind of interesting for you to reflect on either I then worked at Jake Gorgon and the Goldman Sachs and that brings me up to the present I returned to the UK after 19 years in New York where I work for most of these companies I move across there with Bloomberg and I can tell you a little bit about that journey and they came back to the UK in September that's why I'm working in a start-up and changing things up a little bit it's all new to me so let me take you back a little bit to the late 90s who remembers them okay I'll be home far over there does I know that miss all right she's really flipping out what did you just say so this is what phones look like remember those miles I think I had I think I had this one here I think I still have it in a box somewhere at my parents house you know no internet connectivity no websites on the go very basic but it was such a thrill at that time technology was really moving on this is what Amazon look like it doesn't look that different but that that's 20 years ago that's 20 year old image capture of what Amazon look like and when you wanted to search the way you use your home and that's what your who look likes when I first went on the web this is how you navigate it around the ng categories there and you type something in you've got some probably terrible match but this is the world that we lived in and that's what that is on this file yes what it's called it's a scion organizer and I just put it up there because in the UK they were very popular 20 years ago they were little Barry and at their time fantastic that Allah was speaking against and thought they were PPI whose rate was old digital assistant yeah and they were absolutely brilliant they weren't Windows obviously because you didn't have the memory in there to be able to love it but it had word on there and it had a kind of Excel version on that nice little keyboard you could type on the go and then with them one of those companies like Dyson an apple that really understood hardware design but it was a different world it really was and I started work at Bloomberg that's me I never had that is 22 years old I'd like to blame the light shining on my head but showing my scalpel blade neuron and big party right now I've I've really not had hair for most of my life and what I was doing the blue base as you can see I was in sales so what the sales being a Bloomberg so Bloomberg is obviously I'm sure a lot of you know financial information right in the terminal product that they sells you software on desktop and one of the missions of you as a salesperson is to ensure that your clients get the maximum value out of the product how do I do that as a salesperson I go in and constantly show you new features and functionality my goal my guiding vision is that you extract as much value from that product as possible - that's the vision it's always good to have a vision to know why you're doing something thank you there's a salesperson if you engage with the product more you would renew your contract and hopefully the person that's not sitting next to you when they join and they're looking at what you're doing and they like it they say I need to put him down as well so I spent a lot of time training people up on blue mogul and at the same time at home I was mucking around on websites and I started to scream my own websites are not technologies I'm proudly not the technologies to be sent to it not the G other times I'm really having the kind of client facing guy but I was mucking around on websites and I was thinking I actually went on to archive calm if you've never seen that actually keeps a record of all websites and dug up my old website from that time you say oh yeah I love a fresh face anyway and I am speaking about how you lay out the website and how you get people to navigate around it and unn hopefully use it more when i was going to work and showing people how to use the Bloomberg at one of our guided most how can we get people to use a lot and I started to bring these things together and think geez you carry big dynamic blue they did this better on that better and I watch the way that people use the product and I saw where they were falling over where I had to step inside let me do it I'm doing for you because it was too difficult for them to work out and that's why I started to get this sense of some intuitive usability right I was in sales but it was great to get that exposure to clients and I started to put together ideas and those ideas hit one of the cofounders of Bloomberg in New York and I was up traveling to New York on business and he took me out for lunch and he said I don't agree with all your ideas but I like the way you think about this stuff come to New York I need you to help me guide the development he actually said if I the developers will do a good job coding but they'll make it look the way that they dress me they don't want to do so so I said no and then I said well you know this is a chance in a lifetime to influence of product say do I want to sell how many of your salespeople in one month excluding part so I just thought do I want to sit there selling what these other people are producing and designing or do I want to create it and have them fundaments likely going to sidetrack here but when you're a product manager a part of your role directly on the company's work because you accompany this a little bit different but when you're working in our more than institutional or b2b role one of the things you may have is a sales force that sells you're grown up your job is to sell them and their job is to then resell it so I whistle of source sales people's research I think one of the research I wanted to be on upstream so that's how why I decided to go over to New York and it's a long career I spent 10 more years in New York working for Bloom though but while I was there I continued with that client engagement and also talking to the salespeople and I continued to exercise what I think is a critical facet of product management which is the synthesize the client needs we listen to them process we might talk about that bit later I came up with an idea for something called Launchpad if you're in the financial markets you'll know it it was my idea my job originally was it's a great idea Raju's you could sell it what we produced it they handed it over to some people who didn't have a clue they ballsed up for a few months and then I came in and I rescue them and that's how I became a fully fledged product manager although at the time we didn't comment it bad we call it business management because a blimp bird the product is the business and the business is the product so you could also spawn their business managers and I think about this morning when I left Bloomberg I didn't actually know how to describe the job that I did other than the business manager I got to finding my business manager small business development she's more like sales and I said that's why I didn't want to do sales right anyway but I did a number of things of Bloomberg launchpad is very well known I read that their new system I came up the idea of an instant messenger which is the early nineties was quite novel and I feel that those things could move on where I left them are not sure they really have and then after about 10 years I felt you know company has achieved its goal always wants to be number one in market data and it got there and after that I felt that there were more innovative things I wanted to do and I felt a little bit institutionalized I still in the camera okay I want to walk around but she told me stay in there in the view of the camera I started to think I need to try something different so I ended up going to which was a competitor of the Bloomberg because they wanted to help with that they couldn't start up in a large company what actually happened is they came they invested a billion dollars in the product condom icon you I pay loan in and when it came out it didn't do very well being on camera so I'm gonna be very careful why I say that they didn't do very well and so what they did they took the group that I work for and they put us into an icon and my job was to come up with the product strategy and build out a team to make icon of airy very viable product and for me I had a lot of creative ideas that I wanted to pursue a Bloomberg and I can fill them I could and I was able to do them at so it was really really good you know it's it's quite funny because and now this is quite a new big display of showing the financial products but if you look at launch pad and you have an icon you'll see a very common thread through it and that's because I was very heavily involved in the product design is this interesting so far I got your attention good okay all right I'm a no I'll go bigger so I was voices for a while I won't give you the full blow-by-blow after that but in the more nest decade after that I wanted to get more into the business I wanted to be closer and I said I like that interaction with the client I started to lose that so I wanted to get back into it so I work for a series of real businesses I think businesses as in the businesses that someone like Bloomberg or were serving JP Morgan Goldman Sachs most recently and I worked in their digital product strategy groups or their digital product management groups because they are all you know this is the world of FinTech so what's happening with these large banks and financial institutions is they are the minimum Theory disruption right you see it with Monza with the big banks right or you see in some of the smaller companies that have there's a company called this blue alpha that's a small company a lot of Goldman Goldman they are on the board of it and invest in it and they have some very nice tough financial professionals that are interested in the equity markets right and so you've got this kind of disruption of the status quo and so what it means is the banks will how many of you work in the bank I came in to grab which one afterwards I thought about you but then putting money into their digital propositions right and it's not it's not in their DNA so someone like myself with the background I've gone it's it's been for a you know good few years of being able to to work with those companies to help you know formulate what they should be doing when I say formulate that sounds without coming to an ivory tower you know there's a lecture or something you know Colorado you do as you go no I'm very hands-on very well obviously there's obviously drawing up the user experience up on a board so don't get the wrong impression when I use the word strategy alright so let's get a little more theoretical here and talk about what I think makes for a good product manager so a couple of thoughts I had but product managers provide the deep run-up to expertise now if you work in a bank product off the means and it will take a a structured product a bond derivative you have say digital application this is all on the web I like like I did I just took half a bit died following the best there's so much stuff out there right not all good after you spend your whole life reading this stuff on what makes a good product and if you actually wouldn't be a product manager because you wouldn't have any time to do it but anyway but I think the deep product expertise if you think about my story being out there with the clients from being able to think from a client's perspective I was able to obtain that viewpoint by engaging the facade to see what's working what's not working so and the end product expertise could also be business expertise as well so if you can take business expertise your knowledge of a particular business or product area and you can think about how strategically you want to build another to enhance that that's extremely valuable but you need to leave the organization and make strategic product decisions so that's your vision what do you want to build product managers often analyze the market what the competition does is really critical should never do something just because the competition should do it again you should look from the clients perspective is it a value to the clients and if it is what do they like about it and what could you do to differentiate it that's what I've written here and this one here is really interesting especially for me working in a start-up right now the wrong spends many activities from strategic to practical so one of the things I've done a lot of smarts I've gone in and I thought it started to comment the boulders just thank you really these help to tell me the big boulders that you've gotten your curfew three roadmap and then we'll go through each one assess what the value is why are we doing it and then understand what the drivers are who wants it I use comes I think why are you doing it and sometimes you find out in this long conversation for the seats together today where there's a desire on the screen to be able to change the time zone that sounds like a requirement but that could be five different implementations and no one really knows why someone asked to change the time zone they just know that in Asia so I asked right and so the job here is from a strategic perspective why and then when it comes to the tactical stuff there are some challenges that clients have had that are very palpable very relatable and my job is to think through end to end how can we provide a solution to that our agency all about managing expectations can't solve the underlying problem because it depends on telecom companies networks we can't pretend that what we can do is communicate to the client when they don't have a good enough seat signal to make a phone call because of the moment where they're going to make phone call it doesn't go through the gate please stop me throw the phone stop IT person to get back to their firm but what you can do is manage the expectations that's kind of understand it's a little bit more tactical how can we do something to solve problem quickly and then product manager provides cross-functional leadership right so obviously and I think you all know this but working with the engineering team working with marketing often forgotten by the writers particularly the people in the big banks very often what you can end up doing is getting so busy with the plan and the execution and dealing with technology that you forget to think I just mention to you the reselling or the selling because it doesn't have to be doing that or the consumer world you need to think about your marketing strategy social media all that kind of good stuff right but the market either marseilles is really important because you are effectively this product manager writing checks when the company's money now you better make sure that it pays back if it does by painting back as well in terms of your career and your career opportunities hopefully some chair them alright so how many of you see this before doesn't surprise me I'll bet you not as many as I want okay because I'm so haven't spit stay but but one of the things is say product management is the intersection between UX and design technology and business and actually I was thinking you know you kind of it kind of in the middle of all of it you have to be able to do a little bit of all of it especially if you're a client applicants you should be as a product manager I'm definitely more on the UX in the business side I get some of the technology but my viewpoint is that if I could imagine I have good product strategy we've been out of a good technical person because if you're going to rely on me to you know that's fine relying on me to do your tech architectures like rely on me to do your hairstyle it's not happening you know but i but i but I occasionally know enough that I can argue about core units the logic protect the logic I get the bits of the bikes you know myoh someone smart for me to do that but I think this is quite a useful way of looking at it alright so this was just like I thought I would just focus very quickly we make a good time actually on just the I found this on the web by Brendan there but but but really it's funny I looked at this and there's so many different ways of looking at it so being a product manager means their solutions now very often you'll have people say it's a response to a client problem kind of but some of the best things like the iPhone iPad everyone you say example but think of the iPhone no one knew they have a problem right because I don't think it's more of an opportunity so you know we can talk about problems by Mylon challenges you can't have that definitely will be a big input driver for your product vision but I think is about opportunity I think it's about being creative it's about interpreting the needs of the clients and thinking about how you can represent that in your product and then just the kind of span of a product manager you've heard me say numerous times really being the advocate their eyes and ears of the client but you are the proxy for the client in your company so how do you get there in the cluster mum designed the experience right so that's that's very nuanced right that's where you end up you know this if you've done it you end up in arguments with giving UX people is you have a general sense if they can be a question about that afterwards if you want to hear some experiences of that a general sense of what now I just don't think that my clients look at this but it's going to resonate with them so how do you get over that and what can you do empower the frontline I think that leaders become the sales at the marketing side but then the metrics that matter tracking the performance of the things that you feel all right and learning from how people use it using that data much more prevalent in the consumer world and so much means of the true she the world there's still a little bit behind in this I taught I was substituted here a class or maybe testing sorry honor was it metrics it was Google Analytics an a/b testing and I thought was really interesting because any testing is something that doesn't happen that often in the world I come from plainly because some places like this is such a demand to deliver deliver deliver and make money but no one really wants to sit around my Google does you know for years with Google Mail on wait for years it's to have it in beats who are you learn things from it just doesn't work that way in institutional finance doesn't leave it's a bad idea but you know and then the feedback so as a result of looking at how people use it the feedback from your front line I take that to be sales and marketing and also some of the customers as well that all feeds back into how you can improve your product and change your product is product management right for you now we're going to go through every single person and ask them individually and until you all finish and so that is back so I mean look a couple of attributes and I did put this one together because it comes from the heart this one so one of the key things is human empathy I'm looking around the room you know it's fat and I'm checking out whether I think I'm getting to you whether it's resonating with you whether I'm doing a good job doing this present that's empathy so you've got to say of what works for people now there's a lot of different types of people we know that with a lot of different opinions right but you're going to have that sense of what works and what won't and I think you need to be able to synthesize the different inputs that you're getting to formulate your plan you have to put in a big dose of empathy entrepreneurial whether you worked at a big bank or you work at a start-up it's all about you know it's really about if most cases you generating business opportunities so you need to be able to think with a very much general mindset an appreciation of technology now you said you've heard me say openly I know I look like a peanut butter and I am a bit of a keeper I'm not a technologist right but you need to be able to appreciate what technology can do that helps with your negotiation and your horse trading with technology when it comes to all the things you want to do and then all the things that you can actually get curious you really want to know more how many of you were interested in my son organize but curiosity around the way things work I think it's really critical and this one over minded no egos banking guys I'm not saying they have egos I'm saying this is a challenge what you deal with anyway anyone in the family frankly but one thing I take a pride in is if your idea is better than my idea we'll go with your idea okay because it's not about my ego I don't need to be satisfied with my ego but I think I've always been like that if your idea is better that's what's important for the business so we go with that so one of the one of the phrases I've got in my repertoire and I tried because I could be quite forceful in my ideas I remind people that I have strong opinions that are weakly held so you can change my mind don't misunderstand my you know certain this because I really mind is to your ideas if they're better this one oh yeah I loved it in the Steve Jobs but where he walked into Bell Labs and he saw the mouse and he's like that's it and I've had you know one of the initiatives I mentioned before the thing called launchpad my original idea was slightly different and developers say can I show you something here talk to me in words about what he wanted and I said I don't think it's the right thing and it is who can I show you us a job 24 hours later he showed me this prototype and I just said that's it now they thought I said no they after to class exactly once I saw it that's not a whole nother thing if you come to my class I'll talk to you about how to visualize your ideas because visuals would people over where words can often fail because they've put in his words disobey but leave your ego at the door be open-minded about it ask yourself am i objecting to this because I'm gonna have to relent on my idea or are you sticking to your guns because you genuinely believe it's the right thing it's a struggle with this problem all right what's this course all about let's get into the product school so if you've decided this is bigger than this sounds of interest to you so let's talk a little bit about the course first time I think of time three minutes thumbs up alright so this is the product management overview as mentioned before soft and hard skills there's a final project actually is a couple of projects and presentations that I'm going to show you the second and job hunting tips got lots of opinions on that one later gentlemen so it's eight weeks you come along each week there's lectures and discussions there are groups silence that you work with other people in your cohort the end up view if the work cohort is something that's commonly used Wow okay not because they use that university or anything okay so your cohort how young if you guys can't believe I'm 27 so a group of Simon's good fun and then individual homework I think too you know I think over the overwhelming and then there's the slap community as well that was mentioned before just to give you is eight weeks right so I'll give you a quick rundown as some of the things and I can drill into more of it if you want me to because I've got the full syllabus here so introductions to chronic management in the first week actually it's the overviews of some of the things we've discussed even looking at your resume through the product management filter about men's understanding your customers and success metrics that kind of stuff identifying validate opportunities so what makes for a good idea we've kind of touched on some of those things in this speech which should I keep up safe defining and designing your products what are the inputs that go into the design how can you visualize it that you can either winnow the stakeholders ultimately you want to win over your engineers whatever everybody that they love it but what goes into it what's an MVP what does MVP consist of if you don't know what that is you're learn about it little more touch on the UX design as well building and launching your product so your engagement with engineering the relationships the tensions how many of you are technologists okay so the engagement with technology and how to do that in an effective way and then measuring so let's assume your products out there how do you measure its progress isn't eating your expectation in the beads in your targets is it being used what's the feedback how to process that feedback the sixth week is actually a course review but also an element is preparing for a presentation and then week seven is actually standing up demoing your product and did giving a final presentation of your product idea and I think we actually go into you preceding the product idea that you want to incubate not necessarily real life but certainly for the sake of this course to be something from the existing world what could be something that you want to do outside of work doesn't matter it's all about the product management discipline and then last week we'll talk about if you're interested in finding a job or getting a product job because I think in many cases people attend this because they want to either go through my product management grow into a new one I want to understand a bit more about the world or they want to get into product management much more about it so we'll cover that as well alright so we are at the 10-minute mark about 10 in small right okay so I'll open it up to the floor ladies gentle whatever last things gonna be easy tom could you speak a bit about your experience in marketing sales that has a pullout religion because you talked about building yeah yeah although that's what she didn't do yeah there's this two things there so the question was around engaging with marketing ourselves again the bible's of new customers right there's a couple of things there so I mean I will say that what buy my time wants always worked for me and I'm waiting for it not to what we really has is when you've got the idea or from feedback whatever the mechanism is and you've defined in product vision is actually visualizing it it could be just a series of images wireframes is lots of capabilities now where you can do this interactive mock-ups sometimes that'll be too expensive but at a very minimum some images of how the application would work and what I've tried to do these guys maybe his Google slides which I've never used before but if it was up to me I've been using a keynote right now you can use PowerPoint and I would look together the images and animations on there to try to bring it to life as best I could and as I say that's maybe a little rudimentary but in many cases you know you don't have the luxury of funds to be able to have UX people or kind of the platform they called the hybrid people between and UX guys and and front end designers to mark this stuff up I sing at Goldman but we did it for a tiny portion of the product that we wanted to offer this is expensive to do that but you find a way of visually representing your product ideas and you build a narrative around it and you show them and you get feedback you show them before you have to go to market but and you get the feedback and then hopefully those a lot of sorry that's a great question both actually I was thinking my head of sales and marketing say you're breathing them on your journey but absolutely you know especially in the world that I come from you know the you're talking about thousands of people sometimes hundreds in the face of Bloomberg towards hundred thousands of people but if you still find proxies like that actually trader who's going to be a good proxy for many many other equity traders right it'll be a little bit careful what you're going to be more than just one right otherwise it becomes very anecdotal but go out and validate it and show them talk to the throne and watch their responses and ask them questions and that's actually one of the skills is the common talkative guy but I'm very aware that you should ask questions as shut up and then see what their responses because you know these people want to be nice they want to be polite even in America even in New York right they want to be nice and so they'll say oh oh yeah but make I miss stood that and if you've got another prize invested in this you like getting it you didn't like it shouldn't do that you should be like no there's a reason behind that's the reason why you didn't get it so that's really helps to formulate it in terms of your product launch and go to market look every organization is different if you work for JP Morgan they got you know a huge marketing team or very big marketing team and there's people whose job it is for you to hand it over to them back in the day when I was at Bloomberg who really didn't have much of the web marketing has changed now and I ended up pretty much orchestrating my own marketing campaign we did have a few people in Lansing actually I worked there there was very company that's as successful as it is the amount listen about marketing is relatively distant certainly during their growth engine no one knew remember in marketing right no so the marketing people I find interesting doing off-topic marketing people a little bit like UX people they don't necessarily have deep domain expertise that you have as a product manager and so one of the challenges can be getting them on board with what you're doing ultimately what they want to understand it's the same thing that sales we want to answer one of the features one of the advantages one of the benefits why is this better than anybody else I remember being asked that one company or whatever what exactly is better about this than the competition I said nothing much this just gives us pop but Wayne's competing with them but you know our name is worth so much at least we've got something you know but salespeople are interesting it's such a lot I don't know because we got one of the things that's interesting for salespeople is they have are they selling the product that you're producing if they are very often they'll complain that it's not enough just ignore it and just extol the virtues of what they've got and just have a very thick skin about it in some cases you do the sales people who are at against what they're building because it potentially disrupts their careers and there I will come to you now so their revenue stream if you find that a lot of fighting I take it offline with you who use three that's our question isn't question yeah you asked me about clients as well just visit the ones just go out and say you know I don't accept soap you know I'm just a you from experience I've had sales people who are breathing even to get me out to clients and I've had sales people who won't be very defensive for whatever reason I'll tell you a lot of that but you have to push through it if it means you have to go into your CRM or wherever you know there's a client or you need to talk to one of your friends about someone that's using the product just find the way what's what's gonna happen get into trouble for seeing the client to run by an idea I'm about to managers how are we going to happen for us okay commercialize them go home what team what do you think isn't it amazing cube not to matter from your point of view I would say like a recruiter actually you know that's absolutely no idea what job you're representing you don't no idea what the company does and you have complete Glover right same thing I mean you even did the deed you know to try to go this deep as you possibly can into understanding the product I mean for example I've I've worked in finance for my career ten percent of myself a finance guy I'm a product by the works in finance not a finance guy that works with product anyone that knows me knows that I do not learn the intricate workings of instruction derivatives okay I don't need to I need to know enough about what the clients need to devise the UX and the product strategy for them there's an expert somewhere else so what's pretty quite thing from a marketing perspective is to try and get as deep as you can without you know overwhelming yourself in the detail and then look for the clients perspective about how they're going to receive it now I'm sure you do this already singing reading business teaching your grandmother to suck eggs I'm sure but I will tell you I was looking at talking to a property tech company the other day and they told me that they're interested in combining three of their platforms of gave me the name of the three new platforms I looked the ball up the internet looked at their website now I suppose it supports why they wanted me but it meant a second understand I'm saying because this sermon their own mindset knowing their world that they don't get that if someone else comes there they might actually need to be having explained to them and that's why I tried my communication skills to not not take you down to the lowest common denominator but to be as clear as I possibly can and to not assume that you know this stuff right and I think that's that's the mindset it's either done be presumptuous with what you expect to find and manage especially the business like when it comes to you know is easy and quick answers back it's the wonderful phrase what when they stated let's use the data where there's opinions let's use mine so if you get the data then that data could be quantitative but it could be qualitative so to be on the back of you know client engagements so in the end of the day we remember that thing about entrepreneurial you looking everything from a business perspective what drives the business and ultimately what are you trying to do you're trying to drive business opportunities for commercial revenues so if you can tie back your story to that and you can use evidence very difficult for P with you you know within your organization well in your world you end up in the bank it would be you know work with these sales people to get access to the clients that they think will be most vocal you can also look again you can look through whether they are the people that bring in the most revenues they're the people that use the product the most they're people that use other products you know towards the sir in your case sorry if it's a bit narrow but it's like you know a team go to the go to the team meeting for the sales people and say I'm looking for people like this I want to know some people who you know I read great customers of yours or where you're fearing that you might lose out to XYZ competition there you go cuz I can I think we build something for them and you know what it can help you miss the sales guy because what we'll do is we'll turn us into a what we'll do is we'll put a weighting on what they tell us and that'll help with your relationship that's of that is threatened right now and it'll make them feel special what do you think some people say I don't you need my client little muddy things up some people would embrace it the other thing is go to events if your company does events or there's industry events go along go along people just can't talk to people contrary to the way I appear I like to present him but when I'm at most things I've done really forced myself to just go out and shake someone's haven't talked to them but I made myself doing some Goldman there was a there was a lack of even hook into the product from a client's perspective and I went when a lot to the events and lit she just walked around shaking hands with people in the breaks and Einstein sweet to look at the beginning and then get into what are you use it to consume research do use an iPad they turn on screamed you get it flew blue baby and you get get and then swap cards you've made friends and then you can call them directly all right I think I think I was getting then shut up you