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you're listening to the higher calling podcast I'm Pete Newsome and this is your source for all things hiring Staffing and recruiting I'm joined with Ricky Baez on a beautiful Friday morning Ricky how are you today I'm doing great Pete how about you I'm doing all right man I'm doing all right it is uh it's a beautiful day in Florida that's right when isn't it a beautiful day in Florida for everybody else listening that's not in Florida uh when it's a hurricane I think I think that's it I think yeah but we see those coming so yeah we have Florida man but we also have beautiful weather so I'll take it we do you have your Star Wars shirt on you're ready you're ready to go that's right that's right got a Star Wars meeting later on today I am not kidding that's a real thing with a client and I cannot wait it's gonna be awesome wonderful I look forward to hearing more about that later but today we are talking about employee complaints yep an HR uh professional's dream right this is your this is your time to shine Ricky this is when you're when you're needed most right how to handle employee complexion employees never complain though do they [Laughter] have uh what kind of Amazon wish list you have over there there Pete um but yeah employees complain quite a bit quite a bit and you know HR I think HR professionals would really kill it out there if we almost all had some kind of a psychology degree any any degree of psychology even a psychiatrist um we would kill it out there because that's that's almost 90 of our job just listening to people and hearing them out and then helping them along the way but yeah we get a lot of each uh complaints from employees and leaders too isn't that such an interesting statement and I I'm not surprised that you would make it but I think it's unfortunate that you would need to make it which is ninety percent of your job is is complaints right I mean if you had to break that down and put a pie chart of of the nature of those complaints what what would they be attributed to you know complaints about the company peers yeah what what you know getting a raise having opportunity work hours what what do you think would be the top hit list of of employee complaints the top one that I have seen in my 20 years is always that and people feel that they're being treated differently and because of managers holding them accountable right so a somebody comes in now I'm gonna paint you an awesome scenario here Pete because this happens quite a bit I'm in my office somebody comes in and says I need to talk to you because my manager is discriminating against me all right come on and have a seat now the first thing I do I listen I don't care how many times I've heard this same story from other people in the back of my head my conscience is fighting to say okay you know what this is going to speed it up now I'm quiet I listen to what they have to say what that does is a lesson talk you get to hear exactly what's happening what's going on and Pete nine times out of ten at the end of that conversation I ask so how can I help you and you know what they say like you know what nothing I just I just needed to say it out loud and then I go back to the leader why is this person coming to me listening to this right but anyway um to to talk about that number one complaint that number one complaint is people come in and they think my manager is is treating me differently because he's not writing me up and okay so I asked why is he writing you up oh because I didn't do what he told me to do like okay all right it's and why isn't he writing Britney up I'm like is Britney doing her job yeah that's why your manager's not discriminating against you your manager is just holding you accountable to the job you agree to do there's a big difference with discrimination and being held to the fire so that happens quite a bit did you happen to see this week's South Park episode I have to ask no I haven't I haven't I'll just leave it there um it is it has to do with this very topic I'll just say uh for anyone who's a South Park Fan Eric Cartman gets a job and I'll just gotta help everybody so that uh if you know South Park at all um you'll you'll know that that um is probably uh it probably didn't go well I need to check that out okay yeah um but it but it does touch on a lot of these these type of of things and you know in a humorous way of course and uh I look forward to your review of uh oh I'm checking that out tonight of South Park I give you my movie reviews you give me uh you know you're ah I like that okay yes we'll do that John Wick 4 by tonight by the way so I expect to hear 20 out of 10 because as I keep hearing a lot of great things about it well you know expectations are high but they were high for Ant-Man as well and that uh boy was that was that a bust so we'll see all right we'll see um so on these discussion points before we get going uh Ricky I I I have had a theory I don't know if I've even ever shared this with you and being in Staffing for a long time we place employees of course with with our clients who mutually agree to um you know to be to take a job you know to offer someone a job it is a mutual agreement and it's harmonious and and everyone's happy at the beginning of the relationship right that that is how you know these things go the honeymoon period if you will and I find that things generally stay good I mean there's anomalies and outliers of course but for the most part if uh I'm interviewing with you and you choose to offer me a role uh working uh reporting to you and I accept that role we have to get along at some level right you like me enough to make the offer I like you enough to accept it we move forward what I've noticed over the years a trend is when management responsibilities shift uh when when reporting um a responsibility shifts so it let's say I move it to a different apartment or you as my manager leave the organization or you move on and I'm suddenly reporting to someone else I find that that's when most of these employee manager conflicts happen do you have you ever had that thought because I've really noticed it um so many times over the years and I think that's usually the source of these employee manager conflicts that happens almost every time there's a new leader when somebody gets promoted because you know especially if you have a leader that's stepping into a role that that role has had the same previous leader for the past five ten years those employers already said in their ways that leader really has those ruling set and this is what I call the new sheriff complex right new sheriff is in town next thing you know it disrupts the Apple card what people need to understand latest employees and HR Pros is whenever there's a new leader in place always expect the Apple car to be upset and you just have to know how to mitigate that right and you you have to to expect it because contrary to popular belief people don't like change right and when you start changing things you as a leader you have to go in there understanding that the changes you're looking to make is going to be impactful and your job as the latest to make sure that you make those changes as least impactful as possible but still it's impactful well I think it's it's human nature it's natural if if um if I'm in a relationship with you let's let's say you're the person I go to lunch with every day and I go to lunch with you you're my work buddy we go to lunch every day because we enjoy each other's company we have common interests we like each other whatever the the bond is is based on um and and you leave I'm not going and I and I randomly have to start going to lunch with someone else because that's what we're talking about right yeah to yeah if you inherit a manager or manager inherited employee that they didn't get to interview uh it's the same thing what a crap shoot that is right suddenly you know I go from going to lunch with Ricky every day now Bob who I've never met before is is hopping in the car with me every day at noon to go to lunch man that's that's gonna have that's gonna fail a high percentage of the time don't you think it is and and look that that P that's because we're human beings right and and look and I've I said this in class and I shared this with you HR I.T and the healthcare industry are the only industries that I know that we furiously work hard to put ourselves out of business right I.T if you work really hard hear me out if you work really hard to to make sure nobody has any I.T issues your industry doesn't exist the medical industry if you work really hard to make sure nobody gets sick there isn't a medical industry HR if I work really hard so everybody gets along there's no reason to have me around but guess what Pete as long as you have one human being working with another there's going to be attitude there's going to be issues and you're going to need me so I have job security for years years so that that's why I love my job to be honest because I get to intervene in people's issues and I help them get to their aha moment I don't want to prove them wrong I don't want to prove them right I want to help them get the aha moment and understand you may not have to like each other but the respect has to be there because each and every one of you have a paycheck that's waiting on you the end of the week right and that's why I should be on top but some people don't think that Pete I got stories for days about incredible HR stories that will blow your mind it will blow your mind well I don't think we're gonna solve all all of this right and you just said it as long as two people have to work together conflict is inevitable and it happens right but let's instead focus on what you can do about it right and we have some uh some points that we think will be helpful in that regard so let's just start at it uh start to start at the top uh the first thing you need to do is have a plan right of of how to handle employee complaints what what's your procedure for that um what what you know you're the expert on this uh I may be the expert on causing employee complaints because that's probably uh yeah you put that well not intentionally right but but it happens if they're going to complain about someone um you know often the complaint yes goes to the goes to the top right I'm I'm not perfect maybe I deserve it sometimes maybe I don't who knows but we're not going to focus on this is not a counseling therapy that's right Obsession for me um but where uh where do you start and is in terms of creating a processes and procedures to handle complaints what I tell my students Pete is that never ever shoot anybody away until you fully understand what's going on right what you have to understand as an HR professional is it's at any time anybody can come in and say I have an issue and you have to make a determination whether you need to stop what you're doing right there and listen to that issue or just say you know what go back to your manager maybe they can help you out blah blah blah blah but you still need the first five minutes to fully understand that issue so the first and foremost is understand the issue that's in front of you understand that issue and although the issue may not be important to you it is apparently very important to the employer who's in your office right now telling you what's going on right and what I tell my team there are two issues two issues that always jump to the front of the line always if anybody was what was touched you know sexually harassed anything like that that's that's that's really bad or pay both of those things automatically go through the front of the line everything else is on the first come first serve basis so you have to spend the first five minutes trying to decide what kind of a situation am I looking at here right so let me ask you about that so the so the so the first thing you mentioned you know that's obvious right that's a very serious uh thing in any part of life um you know where there's harassment involved especially physical contact I mean no-brainer there but pay seems like it would be a very common complaint I don't think there's an employee uh anywhere if you ask would you like to be paid more do you think you should be paid more yeah maybe some would would say no I don't think I should be but everyone would like to be right I mean that goes without saying so is it pay almost a constant I'm surprised to some degree that you would put that at the same level or or you know above potential other things so so let me be more specific not necessarily somebody complaining that they're getting paid too little but complaining that their paycheck is wrong ah okay that's that's an important distinction and I yes now with you a thousand percent because being in Staffing that is uh the number one thing we absolutely have to get right no ifs and or buts and we we cannot let someone go into a weekend not having a paycheck oh my God absolutely is we place hundreds and hundreds of people a year as you know and it is not completely uncommon I think it's becoming less common as we can scan these things and It's All Digital but uh for years having um people have to write down their bank account number and the routing number for direct deposit and those are numbers we're not used to writing down every day and they're long um there's there's you know some percentage of the time that they don't translate correctly and um or transcribe correctly and a direct deposit doesn't hit and you know that that has happened over the years and you know it's easy to say you could say well it's the employee's fault look they clearly wrote the thing down the number down wrong but I love you don't make those mistakes yeah that's part yeah we all make mistakes that's that's part of it we've written yeah you know manual checks you know when those happen and you know FedEx checks overnight I mean I'm with you because as a staffing company that is the number one thing I could never have anyone say about us is it my they didn't deliver my paycheck yeah right I mean that is a kiss of death then I would never let that happen so um okay thank you for the clarification it complains about Peg no yeah so so let's talk about that let's say somebody comes in and say you know what my pay is too little blah blah blah blah the first thing I say is all right let's let's set up some time to discuss but have you talked to your manager first you have to talk to your leader about this because all I know is what you've been paid before what you're being paid right now but your leader knows how you work your leader knows how you perform he or she is the best person to talk about this now I here's what I would do Pete I would coach the person to go back to their leader with some ammo right I'll tell them don't just say hey I need a a pay raise because of inflation it's that's not a good way put a business case together what it means this case together showing how you have gone above and beyond the normal Call of Duty and why that is worth more than what you're currently being paid right now so so let me ask you to clarify something else on that point then uh when in this and this applies Beyond pay but you uh going to their manager first um to talk about pay now in in many I think the larger the company uh the managers don't have a whole lot of flexibility there when I talk about uh when to ask for a raise for example my first recommendation to anyone is understand how your organization handles those things is it an annually is it done based on Merit on the Fly maybe in that case what you're talking about right now would make sense right your manager with and make your case um but the first thing is to understand that right I think you'd agree with that yep I agree but but just talking about um complaints as a whole when should HR get involved like when should you know what point uh in in how soon or is it a matter of what the topic is where HR gets involved versus a first line manager for example H or so I'm I'm speaking holistically here right HR should only get involved if the situation is serious enough that a legal issue might come out of it okay right now is that is that a general for HR as a whole like you know how do I know nhr is involved well when it's when when it's legal right when a legal issue that that makes sense yeah well well when when the situation can get complex enough that it would hurt the organization financially later on right now now that that's that's the business case of it um now what I do is I I'm really careful in how I talk to employees and how I help them because I don't want the employees to see me as that leader they should see their leader as that leader I'm here to help the employees whether it's a manager or the actual employee at the bottom of the totem pole you know navigate these issues but I'm like the referee at a USC match right well no that's a that's a bad description employees don't fight like you only stop the fight when the person that's that's not do you imagine that it's not the right analogy is as a UFC fan I can tell you that is that you know how much money we will make if we charge people for leaders and employees to fight each other man we'll make a lot of money don't do that folks I'm kidding I'm kidding um no so so when so a great example Pete somebody comes to me with a concern about their schedule somebody comes to me with a concern about attendance right I tell them go to their leader what did their leaders say if they rent to their leader they didn't like what they say that I'm going to listen to them I'm going to process that information then have a conversation with their leader just to to let everybody know what's what's happening what's going on now if the complaint is against that leader then I get involved and I take over that investigation and I partner with that leaders one over to say hey just wanted to let you know this is the concern that came in now let me pause real quick because I think it's important that I make this point right here do you remember the first time you had a complaint file against you Pete I don't you mean I don't know what you mean a complaint filed against me I'm because I do I do I've had a couple here's here's why I asked that right a brand new a brand new leader who comes into it into a position right they're gonna have to make some calls that people are not going to like right so when they make the calls that people are not going to like people are going to file a complaints stuff like that so declare right when you say filed against me that sounds very formal right I mean I and well it kind of is the best of my knowledge that's not happened but um but when uh when I was first promoted I was in uh to from my first management job I would um and this is I'm we could talk for days about this too uh because I think this is very common I was on a team of about 10 and um we all got along if everyone was friendly and then when there was an opportunity uh for a promotion to manage that group the person who would manage a group moved on I don't even remember the exact scenario off top of my head but uh you know I was one of the people up for the role there were a few others in the group who who were as well and I was the one um who was given the opportunity to manage the team and someone who had been a very close friend of mine I thought um was not happy about that outcome and suddenly went from an ally to you know an enemy not to be dramatic but um you know complained about me constantly yeah and so yeah I remember that uh it was all it was painful it was horrible and and I bring that up because that's important to to talk about I remember years ago one of my employees candida and and I'll tell them talking about her uh because I've I've talked about this before in the past when she became an HR leader she had a complaint file against her because she she held somebody accountable she was freaking out because up until that point in her career she's never had anybody file a complaint and I just I gave her a hug and I'm like welcome to the club welcome to the club she's freaking but but Ricky I I don't have I I have a clean record on my Candida did you do everything right he's like absolutely did you follow the book the apology absolutely you have nothing to worry about just when the investigator comes in answer the questions honestly you've got nothing to worry about the truth will come out in the end and then it took her a few times right because let me tell you an HR person who spends their entire career without one complaint file against them there have not been doing their job they have not been doing their job and that and that's that's not just hrp leaders leaders as well so that's what I'm saying um from an agent from a leader perspective right you're gonna make some calls that people are not going to like so expect a complaint filed against you that's perfectly okay okay so all right so how do you how do you establish that process though we didn't really get to talk yeah as an organization what what do you recommend in that regard should you know we hear a lot about Open Door Policy you know where that seems to it'd be sort of the default thing everyone who doesn't have an open door policy I don't think we all do right let's talk about that open door policy what does that mean open door policy means that you can come to me with any concern that you like and we will look into it what it does not mean is that after we look into it we're going to side with whatever outcome you want to see if that's not what that means right now this is again for HR leaders out there if you say you have an open door policy all right and people come in and say I have a concern you should start your conversation with this and I say this to everybody but before we begin wanted to let you know that I'm going to listen to what you have to say and listen to your concerned and we I'm going to keep this as confidential as possible I cannot promise you 100 confidentiality because if you tell me something that by law I have to investigate I do have to involve other people above and beyond us that tells the person because I've been told Ricky don't tell people that because then people are going to be afraid to say anything if they're afraid to say something because of what I said that it's not an issue it's not an issue right so that means you don't see this as as dire enough for me to look into it so we're so we're good now if they continue going down this list listen to those investigation claims carefully do not interrupt and I don't care how many times you think you heard that story you keep quiet and you listen and and and just turn everything off your iPhone everything do not multi because a lot of these times people just want to be heard me that's it want to be heard so that's why we started I would I would explain the open door policy I will listen to what they have to say then I make a determination whether I get involved or not okay that makes sense I like it right so is there anyone you're any company you're aware of that has a closed door policy I think I don't know what the the alternate option is there so let me give you an example of what a closer policy looks like because because this happened to me I was sorry I was working in Lake Mary and for those of you listening Lake Mary is a town you know just 10 minutes north of Orlando um I was working there and there's this new back then there was this new thing called the sun rail system where I lived in late Nona I take the sun rail to Lake Mary and then I was in a schedule right that means that if I missed my 634 train back home right I was I was going to be stuck there for three hours and I didn't want to so I was on my way out one day I locking the door of my office still in the still in the building somebody came to me crying her eyes out this call center was open almost 24 7. so just so you know she just started her shift right so I'm about to leave she comes and crying her eyes that like this is Ricky Ricky I gotta talk to you so-and-so was touching me and he took some pictures blah blah blah blah and I'm on my way out here's what I closed door policy looks like he's like oh man I'm sorry hey can we talk about this tomorrow I'm about to miss my train this right right what does they show her so I'm like you know what in the back of my head I'm like I'm gonna miss my train but I'm like you know what come on let's talk I was there for two and a half hours wow okay two and a half hours and then I had to call my wife to come pick me up but still uh that's why I stopped taking the uh the the train um I I that was a True Story by the way I'm saying that to say that an open door policy is exactly that you do not turn anybody away you don't turn anybody away and depending on the information that they're telling you you don't use it against them now there's an asterisk there right if they tell you look and because I was being discriminated against I stole some stuff from the cafeteria you can't ignore that right you still have to address that issue so I want people to understand and open door policy is a policy where you can come in and have a good discussion about why you're currents but what your concerns are that's what it is at any time possible if you're not a priest and you're not an attorney I am not I am neither one of those is there a priest attorney that'll be an amazing Exorcist I'm sure they're I'm sure there is a few all right so I think we've we've set that stage well and I know the the last thing I I want to ask you about uh before we get into some do's and don'ts and we'll go through those quickly um you are a big fan of having regular check-ins doing employee surveys so you can find out and I I think it was as a as a as a leader of a business uh one of the things and I know I've shared this with you on more than one occasion but the thing that's probably caused me the most frustration uh over the years is that I am the last to know about some complaints um you know and to your point earlier some are valid some are not right we still have work that needs to be done we still have a job to do we still have to be profitable as a business so those are things that um you know we we can't uh ignore but there's a lot of times uh I will find out that someone had a complaint that I didn't even know um it wasn't even on my radar screen far from it and I wish I had a way to find out about potential problems before they become real problems and or big problems or a reason for an employee to be frustrated and decide to move on uh about things that we didn't even know they were unhappy about and you know I have a few scenarios that come to mind when I think of this and it easily could have been avoided if we knew in advance and so um for that reason I I love that you uh support of of surveys and finding these things out um you know let's ask before we know before we have a reason to right is that a fair way to look at it absolutely because but if you do an exit survey you're going to get really good information but it's too late for that person giving you the information if you do a pulse survey and this great relationship between the employees and leadership in HR you're going to get some good information as well and the reason I'm emphasizing in that relationship is because if you do a pulse survey the employees don't trust that we're going to do anything with the information we're not going to get a good credible data we're going to get everything's great Ricky everything's awesome right um so so that's the information I would get so I'm a big fan of pulse surveys but I think how you validate The credibility or the value of a pulse survey is an everyday thing and that validation is connecting with the employees listening to what they have to say and actually helping them in what the best way you possibly can you build that trust if you have to build that trust every day JJ Watt said it whether he say that rents do every day something like that so yeah yeah it's every day you had I I got the last part of that every day you have to work on building that trust that way when that pulse survey comes up they believe in it and they give you good information and they're not going to feel like they're going to be batting down if they say something that I may not like right so that's important to to to work on every single day because he dude HR let me tell you it's it's we're like the police department every almost every interaction is negative except somebody's leaving voluntarily somebody's being promoted somebody being hired anything outside of that it's it's negative so that's where I like to get out there talk to the folks shake some hands kiss some babies metaphorically I don't know why there's babies at work but still you know what I mean um and actually it's build those relationships excellent all right thank you that's a great that's a great answer um and now let's turn to some do's and don'ts do's and don'ts do's and don'ts so dues for responding to employee complaints you've covered them right some of them listen what else um available be accessible be accessible it's it's again uh paychecks being wrong and things that can get us in trouble is the only thing that you can continue working on as an HR hourly person without any approval for overtime right I will be perfectly okay paying that overtime if you have to stay late to handle one of those issues because you got to do them timely timely is key so discrimination missing pay no question about that um yeah what else what are the things that else you need to do I mean what about um follow-up yeah so so we have this situation I think this is probably a common challenge uh I think where you uh you have a complaint you think you've resolved it and we all go on about our day because of course the objective is to solve this as quickly as possible and move on um you know have everyone be able to move on the manager the the the employee who HR you know you have you have your next uh issue to tackle but you have to follow up and make sure the fix worked right and that's hard I mean you have to have a system for that I think you do you do and and the my system for this is always this once I get the complaint I'll let them know what I'm going to do with this information who I'm going to investigate what I'm going to do and then later on let you know when I'm done here's here's where people kind of make mistakes here from from the complaint inside when I go back and tell them that hey I investigated um thank you very much but everything has been handled and the person is like then why are they still working like well what do you mean they they're still working they're not fired so how could it be handled if they're not fired I'm like well let's handle because the appropriate action was taken just because the approach the action you wanted to happen didn't happen it doesn't mean the appropriate action did not happen the appropriate action was taken right and all you did was brought the information to me and I took care of it my guarantee to you is whatever happened is not going to happen again right because that's what you want right you wanted to Pro somebody fighting something different then because you want the harassment to stop and you want this to stop and I stopped it so look ahead well I was just a thing you know because this is fresh in my mind this uh South Park episode from last night where if and I don't want to spoil it for you I ain't gonna see it so don't spoil it all right I won't say it okay but but but but I think what um at times what an employee yeah so so one of the words that we hear a lot have for the past few years toxic work environment right this is a toxic work environment and you you you meant I want to just clarify what you just said I guarantee you this won't happen again well and you maybe you didn't say the word guarantee but because you can't really do that from happening but what if what's happening is fine right the employee doesn't like it but it's just part of the job it's part of the deal I mean how do you how do you follow up on that because I think you have to you wouldn't say it won't happen again in that case you you would say what well this is the deal you can accept it or not um but I and I'm trying to think of a good example um and none immediately comes to mind but when you have that if you have a complaint and you have to say to the employee hey this is just part of the job you know you have to suck it up but once a person has complained about it and expressed you that they're dissatisfied with that situation how do you handle that because they're going to go back to work but you know that they're they're not happy how do you how do you reconcile that and I'm putting you on the spot with this question no no it's okay because I can give you a great answer it's I have a great example that I think I've I've used before when I worked at the county the the uh the person who kept calling the uh soda pop do you remember me you talking about that one yeah yeah same situation in that one right the person what the person wanted to happen was so unreasonable so I just told the person look that's not an issue right The Prudent person's not going to have an issue with that she's gonna continue saying it you have to make a decision on whether you want to continue working here under those circumstances or not please understand this is the last time I'm going to hear this complaint and if you keep complaining about this over and over and over again to the point that it becomes a disruption to operations in HR and operations in the field you are going to be held accountable we have done that in the past the same complaints over and over and over again now it's frivolous and now you're wasting resources we're not going to hear you anymore but it's it you know it seems less than ideal um to send an employee back out knowing they're dissatisfied right I mean that that's what I I wonder you know how to handle that because yeah a person's like well okay you said it and and but I you know they're just not accepting of the outcome that seems like it's um well you're set up for an unhealthy situation moving forward I hear you but I don't know what else we could do in that situation because that's why because satisfaction the unreasonable satisfaction I'm not I'm not going to entertain okay all right because unreasonable satisfaction makes it reasonable for that one person but unreasonable for everybody else in the organization and that's just not worth it but we have to be clear right let's go back record to to what you said about somebody that that where nothing was wrong right look I investigated here's what I got evidence on paper here's what I got everywhere your claims are not substantiated I'm not saying it didn't happen what I'm saying is there isn't enough evidence for me to move forward right now I can talk to the person and say look here's the complaint blah blah blah blah blah be careful but I can't do anything else with it because nothing was substantiated and the person has to accept it and be okay with it and go back to the floor if they keep creating issues and they're labeled to trouble making then that's another employer religious issue that we would have to address with the employee I think what um yeah what I would hope for is to you know if if it's if it's a if it's something that can't be resolved then you know honesty and openness and it's hard I mean this is way easier said than done right but um is say hey let's let's make sure we can all live with the outcome right and and be happy with it um in or not or decide we can't be and then figure out what we need to do next but that's that's you know you're back to needing a psychology degree to diagnose it is and I see one here one one one one one point here that really I'm really passionate about taking sides let's talk about taking sides real quick listen so now let's go to the don'ts right because we're uh yeah oh I'm sorry no and so so I want to say look don't you know um don't go off script if you have a policy in place right don't don't break anyone's confidence and SEO confidentiality is huge when you're in HR right with these things to to to to some point right again back to not being a priest or an attorney um you'll make promises you can't keep that that's that's a big one um and then let's get to and and I think we I want to conclude with this where you're going right now is don't take sides that's that's big and that's where trust comes in and skepticism comes in you know it but don't take sides you you have to walk that line and I can say you um you I know you do that because sometimes you'll tell me you know that that uh the company's wrong right that we need to make a change we're not doing we need to be um you know uh you know we need to consider you know other other um options from what the path we're on for example um so and I know you do that but but um that's a big one it's huge this is this is where I this is the foundation of My Philosophy for what I do this right here right because I hate when people say oh HR just takes the the the side of management side for the management no we don't well at least me I take the side of fairness and fairness means if you act fear whether is it the employee messed up or the company messed up if you hold both of them accountable at the end of the day that action on its own is siding with management exciting with the organization because maybe we have a leader that's not doing right by the employees we got to get rid of that leader maybe we have an employee that's not doing right by the business we got to get rid of that business so that's why I tell all of my students over at Rollins College listen to both sides of the story but whatever you decide to do do not be afraid to let either side know the options they have or how they messed up and help them with it right because Pete I would not be any value to you at all if I always sided with you and say you know what that person's crazy and then we get sued right I'm not doing you any favors with that no you're not I'm not saying that happens you don't want that no absolutely not that's why that's why I'm really big on that one because I want to make sure people on this stand a good HR department always sides with with what's fair and they do what's right and that entire thing is siding with the best interests of the organization that's it I think I think uh I think that's it so it's in in concluding is there any conclusion is there anything else Ricky do we cover it all did we did I know I know uh despite our our other podcasts about violent language in the workplace have we beaten the horse enough there we go um you know what I like let's do one more real quick real quick one more all right can we talk about how to handle complaints uh about other employees versus leadership sure I love how you did that sure sure Rick no look because we it's look from from an HR from an HR point of view if you had if somebody come to me right and they say hey Ricky your business partner is doing ABC blah blah blah blah here's what's happening right what I do I go to the person above that business my my business partner and say hey just wanted to let you know here's a concern here's a complaint how do you want to handle this I don't automatically insert myself into that situation because now this is my business partner they're almost my peer right and I want this investigation to be as Fair as possible because procession is key if people see that we're boys and I'm investigating you come on how's that going to look like right but if I if my business partner is a VP of operations I'm going to go to the CEO and say hey just wanted to let you know this is here if you want I can handle this or you can handle this and I guide you with it but I wanted to let you know this concern came into play and the best thing to do is for me or your boss to come to let you know there's a complaint that has been filed against you we're going to do an investigation and that should not be that should not be received as an ego hit or a stab in the back that's just the way the business works well it's impossible not to take those things personally I think correct no correct it really is impossible because that the first few times I was hurt Pete I'm not gonna lie I was hurt and I'm like how can they not like me and then I was like God they're being unreasonable whatever I've done anything everything right well social media a few times you'll find out how they don't like you that's what we know that's all right yeah but they complain and that's just given the information here you go I've got so many complaints it's not even funny man so now one of them stuck so leader same thing what's different about uh you know when when the complaint is about the leader no no well well that's what I'm saying that was the one about the leader but if if if if the employee is coming to me like I said earlier about their leader I'll go to their um okay they're one over and have that conversation but it's fair to let the leader know what is being said about them I I never want I never not want to because again I'm still have that business relationship and I want to make sure you know how I work here so I'm going to investigate this is not personal here's the questions give me the information then we'll go from there and then we'll go have coffee later on perfect right I think I think uh I think that's a perfect way to sum this up so yeah I think the uh the important animal is uh just yes that so we love questions we haven't done a q a in a while or uh yeah if we get we need to um probably do one soon hire calling h-i-r-e-c-a-l-l-i-n-g at four corner resources.com so if you've listened this far you ask us something I've been read us in review we should say that at the beginning Ricky we should say Raiden review as well we still have you because I know we lose people as we go on um no one skips ahead to the end it did a dramatic end we are at this point likely just talking to each other and that is fine and that's still fun yeah that's still fun right we could we could keep going all fair and we will probably but yeah I are calling it four quarterresources.com we'd love to hear from you thank you and drive safe Ricky thank you as always have a good rest of your day thank you have an awesome weekend folks good night