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Speaker 1 (00:00): Hey guys, welcome back to my channel. If you're new here, I'm Angela Vorpahl of angelavorpahl.com and I make videos on all sorts of topics related to law school, the legal industry, and the lawyering life in today's video, we're talking all about how to get clients. So whether you are starting out your law firm for the first time, you're brand new, or if you are a young associate looking to start those client business development steps early, that is what we are going to be talking about today. And to help us walk through these steps is Katie Lipp of Lipp Law Firm. So less than a year ago, Katie started her own law firm left the law firm where she had been working previously for eight years. And now not even a year in she's already hit the six, multiple six figure mark. And on the side, she has a consulting business where she coaches law firms and attorneys on how to get clients. So we're so, so, so excited to have her here, Katie, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me, Angela. All right. So let's go ahead and dive in. So where do clients come from and what are the steps that you can take to actually get them? Speaker 2 (01:00): So there's four ways that you can get clients and I'll go over those four ways for you. So one of them is getting client connections within your firm, getting client connections, outside your firm, through attorney referrals, you can also get connections from your current client base. And then the last is online through articles, SEO, and like, so all unpack all four of those. So the first one you want to take caution with this. So trying to get clients from within your firms as a young attorney, some people think, well, we'll all just work for this one partner. And you know, they'll give me their clients. If I worked for them for eight years, I would caution you there because what tends to happen is attorneys get pretty territorial with their clients. And I just wouldn't bank on that. Although it does happen, I will say in my experience, my first client I got was somebody that I was working with for another partner. They just so happened that, you know, they were too busy to handle the client matter. And I ended up with that work. So that is one way you can position yourself within the firm to be really responsive to a particular. Speaker 1 (02:16): But you would say that getting clients from more senior partners is more the exception than the rule when you're thinking about ways to develop your own client base. Speaker 2 (02:26): Yeah, exactly. It's yeah, it's more the exception than the role. The point in time, Angela, when I really started to make traction on building, my book of business was when I realized that most of my, most of my clients were coming from other attorneys who were referring me business. And so I started focusing on networking with other attorneys who maybe didn't do my practice area. I do labor and employment law. And so I tried to network with divorce attorneys you know, that did personal injury law. So if they had a client come to them and ask them for an employment lawyer, a lot of times there's a lot of overlap between family and employment because there there's, it involves a suffering of a relationship. If somebody is going through a divorce, they may very well be losing their job, vice versa. Speaker 2 (03:18): So there's a lot of traction there. So I would encourage you to reach out and make connections with other attorneys that you like, people that you genuinely enjoy hanging out with, so you can help them with their practice. And I would have you approach it that way. How can I help you with your practice? How can I connect to you as opposed to coming to somebody and saying, Hey, you know, you don't do this type of law. You should totally refer me work. It just comes across better. When you're coming from a position of service, as opposed to a position of, Hey, here's what I need. People will be much more receptive. Speaker 3 (03:54): And then, Speaker 2 (03:55): Or the other ways is client referrals. You want to treat your current client base like gold. And then that client, you know, that you're working on, you're treating them like gold will be more likely to come back to you. And I think that that's a mistake that a lot of law firms make. They're always out chasing new business when really their current client base holds a lot of fertile ground for new client matters. And what I try to do with all of my current clients is do once a year, I'll do an off the clock you know, one hour meeting where I'll just check in with them, find out what's going on with their business. And most times they come to me with more work after that meeting. And it's just, you know, sometimes I'll go to their office, you know, pre COVID of course and kind of learn more about their business operations, their situation. Speaker 2 (04:48): It's all about like continuing to stay top of mind for a client and that kind of segues into the last way, which is online. You've have to get online. I would recommend using LinkedIn for sure, just to be a thought leader. I know that's such an overused term, but really what you're doing is you're putting out helpful information about that your ideal client would consume. So I do non-compete law and I also do attorney coaching. So I'll put out a lot of content on how to get clients. That's most of what my coaching practice involves. And on the noncompete side, I'll put lots of content out about what do you do if you, if you have non-compete lawsuit or a cease and desist letter, or what have you. But LinkedIn is great. Facebook is great, getting in different Facebook groups, LinkedIn groups gosh, there's so much to unpack online, but the reality is your clients are coming online and they are shopping for you as an attorney. Speaker 2 (05:46): And you want to position yourself as an expert in what type of lawyer they're looking for. So since my case that I want to get is non-compete law. I in Virginia, DC, Maryland, I need to make sure that I'm speaking to the person that's looking for that type of lawyer and understanding what search terms are they typing in Google. Making sure that my attorney reviews are, you know, five stars across, you know, all the different places that people can review you. And, and so, yeah, you really want to shine up your presence online. It's like I would view it as like your electronic business card. Speaker 1 (06:25): That's incredible and a little bit overwhelming. And so if you are either just thinking about starting your own law firm, or you're a young associate, and you're looking to start those client development steps, what are some action items that you could take right now to sort of get the ball rolling? Speaker 2 (06:41): Yeah. So I have five recommendations that I'll go through with you. So one way you can you can take a logistical step is to develop your expertise. You can also use social media, you can get sales training, you can document your cases and I'll explain what that means in a minute, and you can master your mindset. So first I'm going to talk about niching down or becoming a specialist. And I know, so when you first out start out as an attorney, it can be a little bit overwhelming and be like, well, why should I specialize now? And all it means is telling people what you enjoy doing right now. And if you figure out how to solve one problem and you like solving that one problem for clients. So for example, when I first started, I was doing foyer request, freedom of information act requests, like, and I don't know, I randomly really likes FOYA. Speaker 2 (07:35): And so I put that, I made sure to get the word out that companies could use me to send for your requests. And so when a, when a company or a potential client is looking for you, they're looking for a specialist, they don't want just like a general practitioner. I call them like people that do door law, like whatever comes in through the door, they want somebody who focuses on their problem and does it day in and day out. And so just think about that client mindset, knowing that it's going to take you a little bit of time to become like the expert with 40 years of experience. And I know we have ethical guidelines on, we can't say that we're experts necessarily, but think about how clients shop for you. And so the end game is you want to build up a resume to show that you do solve this specific area for clients, because really at the end of the day, it's just problem solving. Speaker 2 (08:29): And so for me, in my law practice, I do non-compete litigation. And so I focus all my content focuses on that. And then I do other stuff too, right. And then on my attorney coaching practice, I help people get clients. That's what I focus on. And so keeping it narrowly tailored, ensures that you're, you know, an energetic match for that type of law coming in. You're gonna, you're gonna scoop up those cases that you want. Okay. So make sure you niche down and the way you build up that experience gap, like let's say, you're like, look, I just graduated from law school and I'm, I don't have that experience yet. How do I get that experience? So you want to make sure partners in your law firm know that you want to focus on this. That's key, just telling people over and over. This is what I want to focus on things be when this type of type of stuff comes in the door. Speaker 2 (09:23): If your law firm doesn't do that practice area, you could consider opening up your own practice area in the law firm. That's what I did at one other law firm. My work dad, they didn't do construction law, which is what I focused on at the time. So I opened a construction practice and was like, duh, I do the things. The other way is you can write articles. You can, you can put yourself out is I know this, and here's all the information about this, whatever it is you want to be the thought leader on pro bono cases is a really good way to build up that experience gap. Nobody really cares if you don't have a lot of experience, if you're free is what I've found. And so I, that's how I got a lot of trial experience early on in my career is I just, I just did stuff for free. Speaker 2 (10:06): And it was painful. Yes, it was painful, but you know, I did it and you can also put on CLS within your firm, but the whole goal is getting experience on a particular practice area. And then communicating that to, you know, to your internal network at your law firm and then externally. And so just to segue into another way to, you know, take action steps is you, you have to be on social media. And I would say the three places for new, new folks just starting out. So you want to have your LinkedIn profile. You want to be on Arava, which is basically a place where people shop for attorneys and you can get reviews on there. And then you also want to shine up your law firm profile. So when somebody is looking for, you know, you at the firm, they can see what all you do and you want to make sure that all three of those areas get consistent love. Speaker 2 (11:04): They want to tell a consistent message. That message needs to be an authentic message, not a message of what you think you, you know, your maybe your mom wants to see, or maybe your husband, or I don't know, fill in the blank, make sure that eight is what you, what a client would get. If they're working with you. Because as a young attorney, you have, you fight a lot with imposter syndrome and emulating maybe what others are doing. And I really, really would encourage you. Number one, to get, to do some research on imposter syndrome and understand why that is a thing it's happens, I think to most of us. And it's because of lack of experience. And you want to make sure that the content you're putting out is is, is you, it's the real, you, there's no reason hide behind a , you clients will love the real you, because ultimately if you're putting out real content, that's your authentic self, then you're going to get clients you like, because you're going to be on the same wavelength. Speaker 2 (12:07): If you're, if you are focusing on, Oh, I'm, you know, I think I should do this type of thing. You're going to attract clients. Sure. But they may not be your ideal client that you like to work with. So just be very careful with the type of content you put out and make sure it's your authentic self. I would say the key with social media is to be patient it's kind of like farming. So you're planting seeds, right? So you started out with your seed packet and you're planting the seed and then you're watering the seed and it has to be during the right season. And there's a time, time to plant and a tight time to harvest, right? It does not happen overnight. And the way that you get clients is you put out consistent value, added information over time, and you want to avoid putting others up on a pedestal that maybe have been doing this for a long time, because they've just been doing it for a long time. Speaker 2 (13:02): And you want to just kind of try to put your ego aside, try to allow yourself to be vulnerable and realize who it is you're serving and how you can help them and, and focus your content in that regard with that theme in mind, not how can I, how can I put out information that I am this very impressive attorney cause really you see a lot of that legal marketing and it does not resonate with the general population. It's it just seems boastful and tacky. And what you want to do is you want to show people that you are their problem solver. You're the one they can trust. And the way that you garner trust is by showing up being consistent and being authentic. But then you also want to like reveal who you are to people. So you want to do video as much as possible. Speaker 2 (13:52): You want to do photos as much as possible, like show yourself. I would say video is awesome because it just allows you to get on and riff and just kind of talk about a topic. So you want to, again, you know, but be patient. So the kind of the goal is get on social media, get your message out there, but be patient, but then also expect great things to come, right? You want to expect great things and know that you, if you put in the work, it is going to come to you. So you want to have that confidence in yourself and that will kind of shine through in your marketing. Another thing you could do is you can get sales training. Some firms may not necessarily teach you how to sell. So you want to make sure that you can educate yourself on how clients find you and what do clients want to hear and a really good resource for that, that I will recommend I've taken his courses twice. Speaker 2 (14:49): He writes a really good book on selling. His name is Ian ultimate, a L T man. He talks about same side selling the concept. There is clients are coming to you to solve a specific problem that they cannot solve on their own and what you don't understand sometimes. Or at least I didn't understand. As a younger attorney is it's a big deal for somebody to call a lawyer. It is it's nerve wracking for them. I do employment law. It can be very nerve wracking for somebody to call and talk about the fact that they got fired or, and most people are going to try to solve it themselves on the internet. They're going to look on the interwebs and try to figure out how they can avoid paying the expensive attorney. And so the sales training really comes into play because it teaches you what people are looking for when they're calling you. Speaker 2 (15:38): Usually it they're looking for, can you handle this? You know, are you qualified and how much do you cost and how long will it take? It's really a very simple process and it can be, you can really practice your sales skills and you don't need to spend a lot of time, you know, waxing about all the cases you've worked on or blah, blah, blah. It's like, they want to know like, have you solved this problem before? How does the procedure work? Like procedurals huge. And so anyways, consider getting that sales training. And if you, you know, if you can do the work yourself like that will be, that will put you light years ahead of so many attorneys, it will just, and, and that can be cross, like if you decide, okay, I'm not going to do traditional litigation, or I'm not going to do this type of law for my whole career, that that base will, that's a skillset that will follow you wherever you go. Speaker 2 (16:34): So it's just worth it to invest in yourself. The next one is document your cases, really document your journey and the way you do that is so go to your law firm web profile and make sure it lists all the things that you have done recently, of course, the successful things, right? And of course, with the proper ethical disclaimer, that all results, you know, you know, these results, aren't always, you're not always going to get the same thing and, you know, make sure you put in that ethical, you know, lack of a guarantee, but make sure that when a client is looking for your potential client is looking for you. You kind of fit with what they're looking for and you can get the cases you want to get and another benefit to documenting your cases. So what do I mean by documenting your cases? Speaker 2 (17:20): So I would do it on a quarterly basis eat, you know, every three months, take a look at what cases you've worked on, what clients you've served, what wins have you gotten? I mean, really it's super basic client wants to pick a winning lawyer. Everybody wants to win, right? So tell them, tell them you're a winner and show them how you can win for them, obviously keeping client confidences. And then when you go in for your bonus meeting at the end of the year, show that piece of paper, you know, print that out and show it to your managing partners and say, here's all the cases I worked on. Here's the cases that we won. They want to hear it too. And they're too busy to go and delve through all this data. And they, you know, they're not paying attention unless you bring it to their attention, the value that you're giving. And I used to do it at my old firm. They would love it. They would eat it up with a spoon. Cause then they're like, Oh my gosh, look at all the stuff we've done. Oh, I forgot about this case. I forgot about that case. So you want to make sure you're really documenting the journey Speaker 1 (18:20): And Katie, that's such a good point about documenting your matters and your cases and your deals, especially for young attorneys looking not only to have those end of year evaluation discussions internally with the firm, but also begin to develop an understanding of your own expertise to be able to market outside of the law firm. And so we're actually going to include a link in the description below to be able to download a professional skill spreadsheet that you can use to create a representation sheet, a matter sheet. So be sure to check that out as well. Speaker 2 (18:50): Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, it is what helped, helped me kind of organize all the cases that I was working on when I was working under a larger law firm umbrella and my managing partners would actually look forward to my review cause they're like, Oh, did you bring the sheet? Like, and then I would tell other lawyers about it too, that I worked with, especially like younger attorneys that were, you know, it's hard in the beginning, you're kind of floundering for the first few years being like, is this for me? Like this is terrifying. And people hate me. You know, there's just like a lot of self doubt during the first few years of practice. And so whatever us is like more experienced or attorneys could do to kind of like take people under our wings. And that's what I find like so valuable about what you do, Angela. Speaker 2 (19:37): And the last piece I want to talk about as far as practical steps that attorneys can take in this process is mindset mastery. I would really focus on the fact that, you know, everything you need to know and taking confidence and you have a solid foundation just through your law school experience that puts you in really your degree is just so valuable. And I think when you first graduate, you're like, what do I even know? Like I haven't even litigated a case and like, you know, I haven't even done this and you focus, your brain is actually you are more prone to focusing on negative things as opposed to positive things. And your mindset is critical in, in basically I would say what I did when I was a younger attorneys, I had a post it note on my desk and it said, validate yourself because I would get really hurt. Speaker 2 (20:30): Like when I didn't get those like super lawyers awards and other people in my firm got them. And I was just like, you know what? I do not need external validation and neither do you. None of us need external validation and we should not be chasing that. And you should know that you have all the skills you need to service clients right now. You don't really need a huge book of business to be successful in law, whether it's as a younger attorney, starting out generating your own clients, or if you decide to go out and start your own law practice, you really, you actually don't need any clients to start out. Like I, when I was starting out, yes, I had clients. I have more clients now, but there's never like there. I wouldn't let the feeling of lack get in the way of you accomplishing, accomplishing your goal of starting a law firm or of generating your own book of business because everybody started somewhere. And I always like to look at, you know, like Wayne when Amazon started out in a garage, you know, I would encourage you to really look at, like, we always see people on social media or companies on social media and see their end game, the shiny, shiny end game. We don't see them struggling. We don't see the beginning when, you know, they have only a few followers. I would just really encourage you to focus on mastering your mindset. Cause if that is going to be a key piece of developing your book of business. Speaker 1 (21:53): Yeah. And you also mentioned something when we were talking as well about the fact that people think, you know, to start a law firm or to start a book of business as an associate in a law firm that you need, you know, dozens of clients or hundreds of clients or thousands of clients. And the reality is you could have one or two and that is a huge step. And all you would need to even get started developing that book of business or that law firm. Speaker 2 (22:15): Yes. It really, it becomes kind of like a snowball effect. Angela. I remember at my old firm, one of my managing partners, he said, you only need a couple of clients. You don't need this like huge book of business because what ends up happening, especially like in my realm where I represent companies, there's, you know, they have a lot of matters, even though it's like one or two clients, it could be a really big client. And a lot of times people are trying to go after, Oh, like I need to get in with like corporate counsel or I need to like cold call people, like really a lot of the matters that you will start to get early on as a younger attorney, you'll get people that trust you, family, friends. And I know sometimes people say, Oh, like keep business separate from, you know, your family or your friends. Speaker 2 (23:00): But I, I wholeheartedly disagree with that. I've represented family members. I've represented family friends. Of course I've given them a discount. You know, you got to give them the friends and family discount, but at the same time, that's how you cut your teeth. You know, one of my colleagues, we, you know, we represent his family's business and he he's been representing them for years. And there's, I feel like there's no, there's no shame in just helping people that are closest to you because really what the attorney client relationship is, is it's a relationship of trust in order for people to invest in you, they have to be able to trust you. And that's why there's such a, we could do a whole different podcast on this, but there's such a, a rift between like the general public and the attorneys and legal profession. Cause there's not, there's a lack of trust. They think we're out to get them or, you know, we are somehow screwing them over. And I think the more you can humanize yourself and the more that you can make sure that you're bridging that gap and making sure that it's a client centric approach, the more successful you will be in your legal career. Speaker 1 (24:04): That's an amazing point. And I think that one of the other things, especially when you're going through law school and you know, this stuff is not top of mind at all, but what tends to happen is that people discount the importance of creating connections within their own law school classes, not realizing that in five, six, seven, eight, 10 years, that a lot of your classmates are going to be either in house at corporations or starting their own law firms or starting their own businesses, looking for representation. And so maybe, you know, five, 10 years down the road, they need a service that you now offer. And so definitely make sure you're connecting with people in your class as well, because you guys, aren't going to be baby lawyers forever, right? You're going to start being business leaders and industry leaders. And so when you talk about representing your close circle, that can also be, you know, people that you don't even necessarily consider as your network, but naturally are because they know you, they trust you. They like you. And it's so much easier. I imagine hiring somebody that you at least know tangentially than just hiring a random person off the internet. So I can only imagine that starting those relationships early on is really valuable too. Speaker 2 (25:10): Oh, absolutely. It is key to the more you can expand your network the better, but you also want to go for depth as well. You want to make sure that you're not just reaching out to people just to do it, or, you know, I would avoid just like going to random networking events. Like I would just, I genuinely think that networking is all about helping other people. How can you help someone as opposed to how they can help you? And once you understand that the more you help someone that builds Goodwill with that person that you can, you can benefit from. Whether it's, it's not going to be a short term thing, right. It's going to be a longterm relationship that you're going to develop. And that's the same thing with clients, right? And, and sometimes, I mean, even with attorneys that, you know, at your law school, sometimes those could end up being your clients. Speaker 2 (25:59): Like I've represented other attorneys as well. And vice versa. You know, everybody needs a will. A lot of people get divorced. A lot of people get fired. Some people end up in jail, unfortunately, you know, knock on wood. There's always, it's never a bad thing to have a good lawyer in your Rolodex or in your phone. Like you just, that is how, I mean, really at the end of the day law being a lawyer, it's a position of power. It's, it's a very powerful thing to be able to help someone in a very difficult time in their life and to help them solve a very difficult problem. And yeah, I couldn't agree with you more, Speaker 1 (26:37): Katie, thank you so much for all of that. That was crazy valuable. So now we've gone through where our clients where did they come from? We've gone through action steps that you can take to actually get clients. And then the last thing that I wanted to talk with you about is as you have gone through your career in developing clients, what are things that you have learned that surprised you? Speaker 2 (26:58): So there are three surprises that just kind of shook me once. I actually realized them and they give such a huge value to attorneys trying to get clients. So the first one is implicit bias and how that comes into play. When people select us as a lawyer I always say, you know, birds of a feather flock together and clients pick you based on whether they trust you and based on whether you are top of mind for them. And I'll explain this with an example. So I, I didn't really have a targeted marketing strategy. I mean, I really don't now, but at the time I was just like, Oh, I will go to lunch with the lawyers. And that's what people do. And you know, I still do that from time to time, but I realized that I had just gone to lunch with one of my male colleagues from another law firm the week before. Speaker 2 (27:52): And I was out at a party the next week, it was like holiday party season. And he saw one of my male colleagues and was like, Hey, bro, like referred you a case yesterday. Hope you got it. And I was just like, Oh my God, he didn't think of me because I'm not his bro. And I, at first I was just like, I took it personal, which I would never, ever recommend. Like, don't take anything personally. I don't think it was anything malicious. But what I realized is there's a lot of power in networking with other attorneys that are similar to us. You should also diversity network. I'm not saying like I should only network with like a certain type of attorney. But early on when I realized this, I started networking with older female attorneys because they tended to kind of take me under their wing. Speaker 2 (28:39): And they're like, Aw, poor baby lawyer. You are clueless. And like would feed me cases. They would see a little bit of their younger selves in me and would purposefully try to give me business. And it, you know, it turns into a little bit of a snowball effect, but definitely for the year after I figured that out and realized how much implicit bias comes into play when people are thinking of you for referring cases, I almost exclusively networked with older female attorneys. And it, it gave me immediate value. I started getting cases right away because people are like, I like you, I'm going to refer stuff to you. Like let's do this. And so just be mindful of the fact that people are maybe not going to keep you top of mind. And I wouldn't necessarily go out and network exclusively with older male attorneys. Speaker 2 (29:33): And I've found in doing that, which I still do that I still have a lot of friends that fall into all kinds of different categories if you will. But I found the older male attorneys were almost income, uncomfortable networking with me cause they would talk a lot about their wives or, you know, and you know, it's just like, I think it really is more of like a generational thing. It's just, you know, it's not until recently that female lawyers were kind of thrown into the mix, you know, in the grand scheme of things. So that's really something to think about. It can really be a game changer for your networking strategy. Another thing to keep in mind is when you are focusing on what you want to do, you know, when you're going through in the beginning of your career, you kind of do like a, a process of elimination. Speaker 2 (30:21): I started out for me. I was like, I love psychology. So I'm going to try family law and can't do anything with kids. It's like terrifying to me and I just can't handle it. I, you just cry. And then I was like, Oh again, love crime. So I'll do criminal law. And like, it was way too much pressure, like people going to jail based on like my actions. And then so go through that process of elimination. It's fine not to know what you want to do, but know that you cannot pick your practice area strategy based on, Oh, I'm going to do this because it's going to make a ton of money. Like don't start with money. As the beginning point money is a byproduct of what we do. And if you are only doing lawyering to make a lot of money, you, my friend have chosen the wrong profession because there are a lot easier ways to make money to being a lawyer. Speaker 2 (31:11): Trust me. It's not. Yeah. But I would start with what brings you the most joy? Okay. What is the most interesting thing that you could possibly do with your legal degree and focus on that? Don't focus on for a while. For me personally, I was like, Oh, I have to be in court all the time because that's what real lawyers do. And if I'm not going to court all the time, then you know, I'm not really being a real lawyer. And of course it's like lies, lies, lies. So now that I'm focusing on more on employment law and employment consulting, and I do a little bit of litigation I'm much happier. I have a lot of joy in my day to day life. And if you, if that process or that concept is overwhelming to you, like joy, what is she talking about? Like that sounds like, you know, hippy talk, whatever I would feel focus on. Speaker 2 (31:59): What is it that you, who do you feel called to help? Who do you feel called to serve? Cause really at the end of the day, the reason you are a lawyer is because you are helping people solve a problem. So you have to solve problems that you're interested in. If you're starting with money and only focusing on money, then you are not going to be as, as good of a lawyer. Cause you're, then you're just focusing on like, you know, getting the money and that aspect as opposed to helping the client. I could talk forever about that, but just that's something that, that did surprise me. And once I turned away from practice areas that I did not, and I started doing things I enjoyed regardless of the money, that's when I started to see more money, if that makes sense, because I was getting better outcomes because I cared more. Speaker 2 (32:48): So it's a little bit counterintuitive. And then the last thing that really surprised me is I felt like when I first started selling myself as an attorney or marketing as an attorney that I had to put on kind of like a persona, I had people, I couldn't be myself, you know, I couldn't just go on and, you know, just be Katie lip. I had to, you know, I'm an attorney and this is serious and you know, I have to be professional. And I think at the end of the day, people really want to see who you are authentically. You know, I would get, for example, I would get a lot of clients that would add me on Facebook and I'm like, Ooh, am I going to be Facebook friends with my clients? Like, this is weird. And now I don't really even think twice about it. Speaker 2 (33:31): I'm just like, you know what, like if a client doesn't like the pictures that I'm posting of my dog and like, that's the reason they don't want to continue to work with me then like, you know, okay, fine, whatever. But I would just, it also comes from a place of confidence, right? You want to make sure that you're being the real you when you're marketing, because then you don't have to put on a show it's really to preserve your energy. I think I'll speak to my own personal experience. I was copying in the beginning of my legal career, what my older male colleagues did. I just would copy them. And it even got to a point where I was wearing like more masculine type clothes. Cause I was like trying to just kind of fit in at the office and kind of become sort of invisible. Speaker 2 (34:17): And actually my husband called me out on it. He's like, you know, you can wear a dress to the office. It is not a bad thing to be a feminine lawyer. There's a lot of power in femininity. And I was just like, Oh my God, I've been suppressing my feminine side to make others more comfortable. When really it's an asset. I would view your differences as a powerful asset because you have more power being your authentic self than you realize. Like in one last example, when the Harvey Weinstein like hashtag me too, stuff came out, a lot of people were seeking a female employment lawyer because they were getting in trouble. And you know, maybe not the proudest moment of my career representing people in that situation, but everybody needs good legal counsel. Right. And so people would tell me, they're like, I specifically picked you because you're a female attorney. And I think we need to flip the script on, instead of getting like offended by something like that, realizing like it actually is an asset to you. And not that you have to like artificially play that up by, you know, dressing in a certain way. That's not authentic to you, but realizing that you as you are, is what you should market yourself as. And I think people will just respond to that because people can smell a from a mile away. They want the authentic unfiltered you Speaker 1 (35:38): Katie that is insanely valuable stuff. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing all that you have learned at all the approaches and strategies that you've used throughout your entire career in developing business. So thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Angela guys, if you want a deeper dive with Katie on how to go about setting up your law firm, how to go about getting clients, attorney counseling, I'm going to put all of her contact information in the description below. So make sure you check her out, make sure you follow her on the socials. And also I'm going to put a link to a download that Katie has on her website that has a step by step checklist of how you actually go about starting your law firms. So all of the tech, all of the admin, all the things you need to know. And Katie also has an eCourse which I'll link to, and she also offered one on one coaching. So make sure you check out all that great information below and Katie, thank you again. So, so much my pleasure. Thank you so much, Angela. Look forward to the next one. Bye guys.