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Msp Sales Process for Banking

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[Music] welcome to the beyond the horizons podcast where we delve into an expand upon some of the key issues raised in the 2024 MSP Horizons report produced in conjunction with Canales one of the core questions respondents were asked was to set out the biggest challenge their businesses faced the top challenge came back resoundingly as new customer acquisition in this episode I'm talking to enabl sales and marketing head nerd Stephanie Hammond about how msps can set themselves up for sales [Music] [Music] success so Stephanie thank you very much for joining me um today we're going to focus on your particular chosen subject which is sales and marketing uh for MSP um one of the things so one of the things that came out of the MSP Horizon's report is that 22% of those that responded ranked new customer acquisition as their biggest challenge is this something that you're familiar with and you see on a regular basis in your role as a sort of head sales and marketing ner absolutely and uh interestingly enough I just delivered my uh Le gen series of boot camps last week and I delivered uh a pure cohort session during Empower in Frisco and that slide has been kind of my starting slide for both of those different uh events and so last week when I I threw that slide up and said look you know we did this Horizons report 22% you know I rounded up and said you know almost a quarter of msps still cite new customer acquisition as being their top business Challenge and I said you do you agree with that and 50% of the people that attended my boot camp series last week agreed with that they said that new customer acquisition is something that they are struggling with within their MSP so absolutely I still see that it's nice to know that the we're doing these reports and they're actually resonating with the MSP audience so clearly we're getting you know clearly we are kind of hit hitting the mark with that so yeah what do you kind of think is or do you think there are any specific things that are really driving this or is it just kind of I suppose slightly cultural and endemic within the fact that you know people they're going in as as as technical people and it's that you know natur thing that's definitely I think one of the bigger contributors to that Pete is that when you look at msps maybe it's changing a little bit nowadays but you know I've been in the industry for 20 years and for a large part of that time msps were founded by TCH right and Tech snow Tech really really well that they went to school for that but they didn't go to school for business sales marketing so I think a big part of it is because they were teexs they were founded by Tech and so when it comes to sales they don't have the business acument they don't have that sales acument that marketing acument that maybe someone who went to school for sales and business and marketing uh would have and I also think another contributing factor is you know if we're talking about owner-led sales you know smaller msps that business owner there's a lot of hats that they're wearing right there's a lot of plates that they're trying to keep in the air and there's a lot of priorities being thrown at them and so sales and marketing is one of those things that it's done on probably a more ad hoc basis I I equate it to wack-a-mole like you know they'll do a little bit of marketing and they'll be like okay I did some marketing and then they go back down and they focus on something else of their business and then it pops up oh I should do some marketing again and um so it's not given kind of the dedicated Focus because there's too many things that are causing distractions um I also think because they are Tech you know msps founded by TCH when they do try and do the sales role they come at it from a technical perspective right like they'll they're trying to sell a tool versus selling a package of services that has value and and this is really evident because one of the other questions I get asked a lot is how do do I price X insert tool here you know how do I price EDR like endpoint detection and response how do I price MDR manage detection response how do I price backup how do I price pass portal you know I'm just kind of throwing out enable tool sets there but insert tool and when an MSP is asking me that how do I press price X or what are other msps pricing for X they're coming at it from a tools standpoint and you're never going to sell a tool because again think about who we're selling to we're selling to non-technical business owners so they don't care about the tool that you're that you're using within your MSP they care about how is it going to benefit them um how are how is their business going to be better how are they going to make higher revenues improve their costs make them more competitive in the industry and so again kind of going back to msps founded by TCH they don't have the business acument they don't have the sales Acumen they're not able to connect with who they're trying to connect with which is non-technical business own owners you know they're talking technical speak versus um uh you know business uh speak and making it relevant to them so it's not I don't think one main issue I think um a couple issues the other thing that I see a lot is um and again it just kind of goes back to Tech speak and kind of their background is they're not doing a good enough job really differentiating themselves from their competitors you know other msps down the street you know when I look at websites and I'll see hey we are the premier man service provider you know MSP in the local area and we deliver top quality manag services who cares right you know who cares you know again think about who we're talking to we were talking to non-technical business owners who in their world msps we fix computers right you know if there's a problem with my computer if I can't print if I can't log on my email that's who I call but msps they do so much more than that right when you look at you know msps they're doing Security Services compliance Services business continuity service they're delivering training consulting services so there's a lot of other skill sets that msps have besides fixing printer issues but when you look at their websites you look at their marketing you look at their sales they don't talk about that they talk about how they're in MSP and those are industry terms we understand what MSP means we understand what managed Services means but again thinking about who we're targeting non-technical business owners we need to use their love language they don't understand what MSP means but if they say look I'm really struggling you know I live in a hurricane prone area we get hurricanes if someone comes at them and says hey we have a business continuity plan to keep your business up and running during Hurricane Season that's relevant to me I'm going to I'm probably going to pay more attention to you than somebody else that's coming to me say hey I do manage services so again I don't think it's one reason those are several reasons that I see and it's interesting because I mean so one thing that kind of comes to my mind as you're talking about that is like I know I spoke to um we we did a podcast with Matt teer recently talking about m&a stuff yes um and we were we were talking about there is a there's a different type of person coming into the MSP into business these days because there are more business business orientated people coming in I would agree with that but do you from your experience are you seeing this as a challenge across the board so like small msps big msps or is it just kind of restricted if you like to the to to to the smaller sort of I don't know up to would say that um I think smaller msps definitely do have that challenge because being smaller they probably don't have the people right like they don't have the dedicated sales resources they don't have the dedicated marketing resources but I think you know some of the larger msps um they may have too many people you know they're you know they they could be e too easily distracted um or not have a a good go to market strategy defined because I do work with larger Partners I'm working with one right now and and they're like Steph our go to market strategy um is very complex uh we make the whole sales process for our salespeople very complex um and it's inhibiting our sales growth so I don't think it's just smaller uh I don't think it's just focused on the smaller I think msps if you are lacking the structure the processes the systems and the people they all play a role in uh helping to impede sales success so I suppose moving on to the kind of $6 million question or questions um what can msps do about that and I mean I know we've we've done sort of I've I've pulled together sort of like a white paper if you like of some of your kind of recent blogs that that touch on a lot of this stuff so we'll you know we'll link to that in the comments but I suppose this is an opportunity really for us to look at some of the key things within that and some of the key areas that that msps can do relatively easily to sort of really start to set themselves up for sales success and to get those get those new customers coming in yeah I think first and foremost um all the information all the training that I try to VI provide I want it to make it relevant um prescriptive tactical because I do want msps to be able to take what they hear what we talk about and be able to imply it to their business but I think when it comes to sales we can't get around the fact that you need someone dedicated to the growth function you know do we need a chief Revenue officer and we are a six or a 10 person MSP shop who knows right but we do need someone whose whole task is growth and focus on growth and focus on on revenue and generating revenue on a full-time basis not a business owner who you know is working on everything else and every once in a while we'll do some marketing every once in a while we'll go on an appointment right we need someone dedicated to that so I don't think we can get around that and one of the the first questions I always seem to get asked by msps if they are moving in that direction they recognize okay I need I need to fix the sales motions by actually making a sales motion um they'll say who do I hire and they think they have to go and hire you know this very expensive account executive you know they're like I don't I don't have the money to hire you know kind of a a Top Gun to come in and sell for me and I think a lot of the times you know especially if they maybe they're a larger MSP in terms of their customers I always say well who's looking after your existing customers now and is there opportunity within your existing base we don't always have to go and think huge and say okay new customer acquisition yes that's what we're talking about today but if we're talking about Revenue growth for an MSP there's a lot of Revenue that probably can still be extracted from your existing clients so you know instead of going big maybe we hire an account manager and make that account manager focused on treating your existing customers really really well we get into executive Business Review process going if you don't have that today so you're meeting with them on a quarterly basis or every six months you're finding opportunities you're finding new Mr Services you can tack on uh you're finding new project Works You're Building uh the pipeline that way but if you are treating your customers and you've put a diligent process in place around account management then naturally probably the referrals are going to increase right because you're treating your existing customers so well so that can kind of help fill the top part of the funnel uh with new leads so an account manager won't be as expensive as a Top Gun you know salesperson or the other thing I'll say who's booking your appointments for you like because I think the sales I think the business owner in the beginning should be the main salesperson like you started the business you may not have all the sales experience the sales uh knowledge um you might be winging it but you started the business you understand the IND you understand the the need so I think the MSP business owner should stay as the primary salesperson for now have your account manager and then have someone booking appointments for you so that you're not tasked with prospecting and doing the appointments you have someone booking an appointment for you and that's not a highly paid uh role uh either but I think step one we have to we have to formulate a sales plan and who's going to actually do the do the rules and so that sounds a bit like kind of tackling the elephant in the room which is really you've got to kind of like you have to have somebody in position to do that and that's not for a lot of business and this isn't just restricted to msps for anybody right any business that is growing at some point you have to evaluate who who to who to bring in who to employ and how that you know whether the investment in that employing somebody else actually pays back yeah and was interesting because I was reading um MSP growth hacks Uh Kevin cloon and he actually put out a Blog last week on this topic and he surveyed just an informal LinkedIn survey and asked um his followers okay if you had to start over again who would you hire would you hire a salesperson like a hunter or would you hire an account manager or a farmer and 64% of the msps responded back they would hire an account manager first if they had to start all over again and and I agree with that not only because my whole life at enable has been account management you know I started enable as an account manager we C they called us uh partner development specialist back then I was the first one and the whole reason they brought me in is they recognized we had our our inside sales um people that were booking appointments for the outside salespeople but they recognized that the outside salese weren't account managers they they were focused on growing Ena they were focused on finding us new partners but they recognize we need a sales motion to care and maintain uh and grow the existing customer base we have and now we have a whole partner success uh or 20 years later that has probably 200 people around it globally so it's a really important function and you mentioned you mentioned growth hacks there um MSP growth hacks I mean I know that one of the things that you've talked about a lot in the past is about this kind of concept of keeping yourself educated reading constantly developing yourself and that that plays into this I'm sure as well doesn't it because you need to be developing your your business knowledge your business understanding and having taking guidance from outside exactly right like no one who is successful did it alone right you know they they educated themselves um peer groups huge um the most successful msps that I have ever worked with or I've spoken with they will all say that they are part of some peer group uh and a lot of you know an MSP dedicated peer group and being part of a career group is amazing because you're then able to tap into the experiences of people that have been there done that and have all the t-shirts right especially if you are a newer uh MSP that's maybe coming into the market or maybe you're now recognizing you know I've I'm only a 1 million2 million MSP I want to get to that five I want to get to that 10 so you do have growth aspirations you need to continually educate yourself and you know I'm big fan of of Paul Green um I listened to all his uh uh podcast the material that gets out there on part I listen to I watch listen and read his newsletters like especially those type of Industry experts um every MSP should be finding and and cultivating their own list of podcasts uh newsletters websites that they should be reading on a daily basis absolutely you you touched on peer groups there which is something I was going to come to a little bit towards the end so you've kind of thrown off my my question sorry but actually that's a really good point to kind of like bring up I suppose at this at this juncture which is that actually msps shouldn't be concerned whatever stage they're at they're they're not alone and there are other people out there that have been exactly the same position and can actually share knowledge around this and I was talking to it was I was talking to um the the guys um heish and and Matt in um in in in Australia and they were saying they brought a bunch of guys over to empower in in in ear the earlier in the year and they created a WhatsApp group and these guys were all on a WhatsApp group and they'd never had that peer interaction before but since they've got gone back that interaction's kept going they've all been kind of going oh you know what do you think about this who's in it I'm thinking of looking at this bit of Technology who's that so you know you raise that upper level and you talk about business challenges you know and you talk about business growth having that peer group around you is hugely important and I don't think msps give it a lot of value to it they think it's not a they think it's a waste of time or maybe they're struggling maybe they're more of an introvert and going out and introducing yourself to people that don't know you like that that can scare a lot of people and you know when I did the the talking about Empower and I had my own sales cohort that was the first question I asked I had about 30 people in my cohort and question number one was okay who's part of a an MSP peer group no one raised their hands and I'm like okay you know what here's your first MSP peer group there's 30 of you in here and the rule it was a three days that I that they were with me the rule I had for my peer group was when you come in for the next session you're at a different table with different people I don't want to see people with the same people I don't want to see people at the backs or if you're at the back you're at the front because I wanted people to mix and mingle and get to know each other and I think um by the end of the 3 days uh people left with with those types of connections which is phenomenal which is fantastic yeah it is incredibly powerful and it's and again I was talking this came out of the conversation Matt and HH that they were saying that you know there were a couple of guys there who were a bit overwhelmed by the attention in the process and so they've gone you know they they're still in the group but they've gone back and they're setting up smaller events um enable events down in down in Australia that um that and they're bringing those guys into that because they'll be able to interact in a in a in a more kind of closely knit sort of less kind of intimidating environment so I mean you know peer groups are not just about big groups it can be a little as you say can be a little bit intimida a little bit intimidating but I think at the end of the day if you are focused on growth for your MSP education self-education reaching out and connect with other msps in the industry um is going to help you get there and there are so many different events where you can easily meet other msps um you know obviously you talked about our enable events that we hold globally um there's a lot of good Channel events um that msps attend like exchange is being one of them like just getting out there it might be a little bit nerve-wracking but msps this is such a phenomenal industry where people want to share you know like they're not they're not afraid to tell you what their secret sauce is and I think for those msps that can kind of tap into that they're the ones that are really they're doing very well no that's that's really good and and I do I hear incredibly powerful stories about peer groups and and and that kind of sharing all the time but just to kind of bring this back on track a little bit so once once we've got to the position that you've hired you know say you're you're in that position you've made that higher how do you go about then kind of like suppose it's important then to to start to sort of understand how to set goals effectively in terms of in terms of your your where you want to go with your growth how's how how how do we do that yeah so I think it's important like you know like you said once you have your salese in play we need to make them accountable uh for something right and I think before we can make them accountable for anything we have to set expectations we kind of have to set you know we got to tell them okay what this is what you're going to do and here's our activities so you know we need to make sure that we are putting in you know setting those expectations putting in those Milestones setting their goals you know in terms of activities so if we've gone and hired maybe um uh like an SDR like a sales development representative they're going to book appointments that's their job they're going to pick up the phone they're going to call into companies they're going to book appointments for you as the business owner we have to set out what the expectations are for that intern terms of you know how many calls are you expected to make every day how many appointments are you expected to book every week every month um you know how what are you doing to make sure that those appointments happen you know that you know doesn't get cancelled doesn't get you know put off postponed so setting goals for each of those different um individuals like if you're doing account management there's going to be expectations for that account manager like you know how many executive business reviews are you doing each quarter you know what's the Mr R increase that you're hoping to generate out of your existing customers each each you know quarter um you know what's the customer retention rate that you are expected to to meet so I think you know from a uh from an individual contributor perspective it's going to be um important to kind of set those expectations and set those Milestones so that when you put people into those positions they know what what they have to do and you know we again sort of like this again kind of I'm just kind of pulling out on some of the topics that we've talked about or or you've i' say we've talked about you've blogged about um so once we've we've got that sorted there are certainly you know and we talk a lot about this this this concept of working working on the business and not in the business um which includes that kind of element of you know everybody needs to keep learning yeah um clearly that's hugely important but then that sort of and that needs you to sort of like you know how can we then some some of the tools and some of the ideas that we can look at in terms of how to generate leads yeah so working on the business really means that you might have to step away from it for a period of time right like you know um setting goals strategy that's something that you can't do in between fires right like you really need to remove yourself you know msps I've talked to you know they'll they'll maybe just take a day if that's all they can get away from they'll take uh 3 days they'll take a week but they'll remove themselves from the customers from the business of the of the business just to kind of step back and say okay this is where I want to see my business where is it today where do I want to take it um so I have a boot camp and I actually and I blog about it you know this whole concept of creating a road map for your MSP and you know the goal setting comes into that so you know a higher goal would have been okay I want to grow my business what's impeding that well I don't have anybody to actually do the sales so that would be a priority that maybe we want to fit and we would add to our road map is you know get some get some sales people in play but again it's really kind of building that road map and that's just really a 12-month plan um of your top priorities that's going to help move the needle and get your business One Step Closer where you want it to be but doing that you know dealing with employee issues customer issues Tech issues you're never going to do it justice you do need to remove yourself from the busyness and and really spend that time and that dedicated uh Focus uh on that and you know so I suppose again one of the things that I like that I've I've heard you you talk about and I I really enj this is one one of your blogs I really enjoyed not that I don't enjoy all your blogs um but this you know you you talk about a lot about how to close more deals and I think that that's kind of something that is I think that's a really important thing that msps can c can understand when they're looking to get that new customer acquisition going yeah and closing more deals you kind of want to work backwards right um and so closing more deals there's a lot that goes into that and I think first and foremost is are we attracting the right person are we targeting the right type of business because if we're not targeting the right type of customer who actually would want our services we're never going to close that deal um there's a stat that I always use in my le gen boot camps and it was done uh it was a survey done by sales.com and they interviewed I think 400 different salespeople and they found that out of the 400 people that they surveyed 50% of salespeople said that they don't they're not engaged with businesses who are the good fit for the services that they sell that is that is huge as a salesperson how can you spend 50% of your time interacting with businesses that you know will never subscribe to your services it is a waste of time it is a waste of effort it is it's just a big waste all the way around so closing more deals starts with making sure that we are targeting and attracting the right type of of client and so you know we call that the ICP right or TCP Target client profile ideal client profile um I joked yesterday in my office hours that I think if I had a dollar every time I use ICP in a day um I could probably retire by now because I think I I think I say the phrase better book of business and ideal client profile every day I'm either writing it or talking about it and I'm talking about it again today it starts with making sure we're targeting the right type of of individual because not every business is going to be a good fit for your services and I think the big struggle with msps especially if they're feeling that anxiety that I need to sign on more customers you don't need to pick up every nickel that you find you know you know there's there's value in being selective in who you targeting and being intentional around who you want to bring into the business and so kind of going back to the goal setting going back to the roadmap planning another thing that msps really need to focus on if they haven't done this type of exercise before is who is my target client who do I want to do business with and uh I talk about that in my blogs I talk about that in my boot camps and usually the first msps are like oh my God that seems like really overwhelming like who do I want to have as a client but it doesn't have to be it just comes to thinking about well look at your clients today who are your favorite ones why are they your favorite ones they're probably your favorite ones because they pay you on time they're probably your favorite ones because they listen to you if you bring a uh a recommendation their way they're not second-guessing you they're saying oh okay that makes sense all right let's let's put a plan in place to make that happen so they're respectful of you of your recommendations they understand that you have their their best business um goals at heart and it's a partnership and so then we just kind of M you know peel that back a little bit and say okay well what verticals are they in right like maybe there's some verticals some industries that you support really really well can we can we go deeper into those verticals right um you know is there a certain size customer that you enjoy working with you know do you enjoy kind of taking care of everything you know that that traditional outsourced type of Engagement where you as the MSP are looking after 100% of their Network or do you enjoy working with larger organizations like mid or upper Enterprise where there's internal it people there and you like you know being a partner with that that it person whether it's a CTO or a director it or VP of Technology because those are two totally different sales conversations two totally different sales messaging and and sales processes so that's a big thing that you kind of need to figure out for yourself as well but again really thinking about who do I want to do business with that's going to help increase your close rates um other things that are going to help increase your close rates is just kind of having that structured process on how you can move that Prospect through the sales final so they become a close sign deal at the end it starts with having a good uh Discovery process and what do I mean by that I mean making sure that you're asking the right types of questions to your prospect so that you're finding out everything you can about their business and I think one of the struggles especially with you know msps that don't have a sales background is they feel this need to do all the talking right they feel that you know they they're uncomfortable with silence and because they're not great in sales you know not that they mean to be narcissists but they talk a lot about themselves and their MSP and that's not how a good Discovery process goes like you want to sit back and you want to let your prospect talk um you know if you want to have a good solid uh successful sales process you need to do less talking and the prospect has to do more talking and so having kind of that structure around the types of questions to ask how do you keep the conversation flowing how do you get the details that you need out of the prospect to help build case because that's really what you're doing here right you're closing your sale because you've built a good business case you have built a case where whoever they're using today for whatever reason isn't cutting it um because most most businesses have an MSP today so the challenge isn't how do I go and find new businesses for my MSP the challenge is really how do I steal business from another MSP right and and it's how do you make yourself stand out you know how do you make yourself seem um appear more professional more knowledgeable uh have a greater Authority in in a certain topic those are all things that you need to sort to help build your case that when you get to the end of the sales process you have demonstrated that oh wow this this MSP does things very differently they support their customers very differently than what I'm experiencing today I think I'm going to give them a shot I think I'm going to give them a try um yeah so it it it kind of like if you want to close more business you got to really kind of examine what are you doing at the very outset um to make sure that you're getting the quality clients that you want for your MSP and you you've just reminded me actually of another piece that that you wrote that I found kind of really obvious but actually quite groundbreaking in a way and that's that just that concept of of listening the you know to to to to be a good salesperson you need to be listening ab and I think a lot of people forget that because it's like you're trying to sell yeah but part of selling is actually listening because then you can understand what the person's problems are or their challenges are and then you can address those challenges yeah exactly and it does seem so basic but you know I was not a born salesperson I still say I'm not a born salesperson and it's ironic that I'm the head sales and marketing nerd because I I'm not a salesp person and like again when I started at Ena I was account management right so we had very talented salespeople who did the hard part they did the cold calling they got msps indri the outside sales exacts they closed them and then they got moved over into my territory so that that's not sales right I didn't do anything there to get them here but so I but I was very good and I still feel that I am I'm a very good account manager and so I remember in in 2011 um I went away on vacation it was the summer time and I was saying goodbye to my boss I said see you in a week and he goes oh by the way when you come back um you're going to have targets and you're going to be a salesperson so enjoy your vacation but when you get back your rules completely changing and I remember saying to my boss I'm like I'm not a salesperson and he goes honey you are now and um that that would have been my worst night but you know it's not it's not in my personality to fail um so I read I did a lot of reading a lot of educ um and I also had a fantastic manager um at the time and he's now I VPS he still was enabl he's now a VP of sales now but he was my manager at the time and I was coming to him saying I don't know anything about sales like and he goes what he said he goes listen that's all you need to do is ask some pointed questions get them talking and if you can get them talking and you don't talk and you don't respond back not thinking okay what am I going to say next you will be amazed at what gets communicated to you and then just take your notes and then use it to build your case and that that little piece of advice continues to serve me today you know even when I'm having any conversation you trying to be in the moment ask a pointed question like oh okay can you help me understand that a little bit more I'm not you know please provide a little bit more clarification what do you mean by that and then stop talking and the information will flow yeah as I say it's it's a powerful thing to kind of get your head round and I suppose to just just just to kind of wrap this wrap this up and you know this is this this is this will be the first of many uh you know in terms of you know podcasts with you because I think P but I mean just just in terms of that I think you know it's the idea of having an ongoing kind of uh sales motion with within the podcast within the podcast we do I think it's really important so you know ladies and gentlemen if you're listening to this we will be doing more uh but just to WRA wrap up this particular one um let's just briefly kind of touch on that subject to the fact you know and it boils down to the the old adage of like if you can't measure it or you can't track it don't do it uh how does how does that how does that map onto the sales process and what are the kind of things that you need to be focused on tracking to keep yourself to keep that sales performance and that sales motion running yeah so the one of the biggest there's so many kpis that you can track you know and if you've never done this before it can be a little nerve-wracking because you also don't want to track for the sake of tracking and you don't want to get buried in the minutia of of tracking so one of the key metrics that I do encourage msps to really pay attention to is this concept of burn rate and um you know the late Mike Cullen talked about that all the time with msps and if you haven't heard of the burn rate basically what you're doing is you want to take all of your recurring revenue or you want to ensure that all of the recurring Revenue that you're generating from your managed Services business is covering all of your operating expenses your your owner's compensation um overhead um because as soon as your um recurring revenue is covering all of those expenses then any hardware sales that you do any Project work that you do it gets to go right to the bottom line you get to invest that back in your business but if you're recurring Revenue that you're generating from your man Services business isn't sufficient to cover all of your operating expenses and your overhead then um you're not going to have that cash flow to build back into your business and you're going to have to rely on on the project work and the lower uh margin Hardware Sales to try and and recoup the that that loss and so the the goal with the burn rate is you want to be above one meaning that you have you know your recurring revenue is more than sufficient of covering all of your uh expensive if you happen to be below one what I love about this is that there's a lot of levers that you can then choose from to try and get it above one what obviously the big one is we got to generate more Mr right if we can bring in more Mr to cover our expenses that's going to that's going to help move the needle and and get us above one and so it's was looking at from a sales perspective well what do I need to do to generate more Mr yes we can sign on more customers right that that's that's kind of what we're talking about today but kind of going back what I said earlier is what can we do to generate more Mr from our existing clients so what sales motion could we put in account for that we bring bring in the account manager we bring in the executive business reviews we have those conversations um looking at our programs what kind of programs are we bringing to Market are we selling bespoke programs are we selling alak cart like maybe just an EDR here and a backup there you know really we should be selling a bundled package of services and selling that bundled package of services to all of our clients so if you have the standardized package but you know you have clients that aren't on it well there's some Mr growth immediate right there just by upgrading and moving those clients into that standardized package are we raising prices if we put in a regular Cadence for raising prices we're going to generate more Mr so it it seems like such a simple concept but yeah if we can build in our price increases every year we're going to generate more Mr uh for our organization um and what I also say is if you are selling package services every time you send out a new proposal nudge it up a bit you know your your pricing shouldn't remain static so if you're sending out a new proposal to a new customer and you were getting maybe 50% gross margin on the last contract 51% this time 52 just keep nudging it up a little bit to see what the market is going to Bear because if you can if you can get someone to sign at 52 53 55 70% margin then you know what the market is going to bear and you know maybe you're underpricing your services so you should always be looking at nudging your pricing up for every new contract uh that you're coming into um so that's like from the MR uh perspective but we also need to look at the profitability side as well like if our labor costs are expensive we're doing a lot of things manually and we can improve that through automation that's also going to move the needle on our burn rate and get us CL because if we can reduce our our prices or reduce our costs but increase our Mr we're going to get closer to one and so you know I know one of the things that the guys um the the technical nerds talk about a lot is Automation and operational efficiency like if you're doing a task three times or more that has to be automated that's money that that you are giving away because you're allowing people to do that work and not the tool sets and we should never be scaling with people we should be trying to scale um with with tool sets and so that's usually kind of that first that first metric that I really encourage msps to to track is what is your burn rate because then you'll be able to figure out okay well do I need to raise mrr what are my tasks that I need to do to increase my mrr do I need to focus on my cost and my profitability okay well then let's focus on what I'm doing from an automation or tool set standardization that gets added onto your road map that becomes a priority that becomes a rock that you then focus on so it comes you know it helps you with your business planning it helps you with your goal planning so it's it's a metric that I really really like and there's a lot of different levers that you can really dig into to see okay well what what can I do realistically to always move that needle in in a positive growth Direction excellent so let's leave it there for now and you know as as ever thank you for your time and just just for for for the people that are listening if you're not if if if you're not already taking advantage of Stephanie's boot camps or reading her blogs you really need to do yourself a favor and get in there and get involved in those and we I'll put links to that sort of at the bottom of these so people can kind of check them out um but yeah no it's definitely as as as I said you know we we we'll do more of these because I think there is there is just so much more to dive into but um yeah thank you for your time and um for actually I would say just like I would say what's been really interesting for me is I'm I've always been somebody that doesn't like sales and reading your stuff is is actually starting to make me kind of grudgingly learn to love sales a little bit you're grudgingly learning to like sales and I'm grudgingly starting to say I'm a salesperson so uh maybe we'll meet in the middle somewhere all right graa thank you very much your time we'll see you soon take care bye

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