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uh retention you have their data you have their information they've given you hopefully um you know the agreement that you can start marketing or sending emails to them and on top of that it's 90 plus of your patient base already and so I'd rather focus on the 90 and making sure that the retention is as good as it can be versus trying to uh focus and spend a lot of time and money on the 10 percent [Music] thank you hello Healthcare in today's episode I'm really excited to be talking about data driven marketing it's actually one of my favorite topics now data driven marketing it's not a New Concept in fact it's been around for the past few decades starting somewhere in the early mid 80s with emergence of database marketing now for healthcare marketers data driven marketing is a lifeblood to the continuation and success of their initiatives their programs and their campaigns from Brand awareness to Patient acquisition and patient retention data helps marketers better understand optimization that helps them better understand their attribution and ultimately it helps them deliver Roi as well as top line revenue growth today I am excited to have Andy Chang VP of marketing from Summit Health join us Andy welcome to hello Healthcare thanks for having me so Andy you have the envious position of uh straddling two brands at Summit Health um both Summit itself as well as City MD yeah so how does how do you leverage data-driven marketing to drive and measure the success of those two Brands yeah it's that's a good question there are a lot of challenges that are definitely not unique but at the same time it's makes the job a lot more interesting and fun with citymd it's a urgent care practice with over 160 locations and the urgent care business is more transactional you walk in no appointment you walk in when you need uh you know something looked at or or some you know covid test and then Summit health is more relationship driven it's your traditional physician Practice Group to Ambulatory Care and it's a very different mindset uh between urgent care and so while the the data is actually all in the same place now with rehr Athena and our CDP um the behavior is very different and trying to marry the two is always a challenge um especially when we're trying to promote one brand to the other but at the same time um we we have the blessing of being in healthcare of having that patient data our own patient data in-house and we can manipulate it and use it to our liking right um and so it's it's a fun challenge for us to have but it is definitely not easy so besides those two Brands what are some other key challenges that you and your team are facing in terms of measuring outcome and successes absolutely a ton of challenges so we have City MD again like I said is a transactional based business no appointments needed so how do you attribute a person who sees a campaign or an ad or what have you and walks in um versus Summit Health where you have to make an appointment uh you can't just walk into your OB GYN or what have you and so you got a call or you have online booking or you have the patient portal through your EHR you have follow-ups maybe that you book directly in the office and so again very different behaviors but what we've done is enable tracking uh with third-party data and our own first party data to connect the dots from an attribution model standpoint and so for cityfd we use geolocation data where if someone interacts with an ad or if this device interacts with an ad or even an outdoor billboard and that same device ends up in our city MD location we have that compared to a control group of those people that also saw the ad but didn't come to a City MD and then another control group for those that even didn't see the ad at all right so we can see what the incremental lift is right and then from the summit side same thing we we a B test and do tests and control groups all over the place to see what the incremental lift is from an appointment tracking standpoint right and so we have phone tracking and we have pixel Souls we have campaign management tools that again track the first click to last touch all the way through right and and again compared to the control group and see what the incremental lift is and that's how we figure out roughly what the marketing uh credit should be and how we measure our Revenue that's amazing I think that's definitely a very pleading Edge I mean a few health systems are doing digital marketing correctly let alone using things like geolocation for for attribution what kind of led to you guys exploring that are you borrowing from other Industries what yeah LED you to kind of that approach uh definitely borrowing um this is I used to work outside of healthcare and these are the tactics that we used 10 years ago and everyone always says Healthcare is 10 years behind it really is at least 10 years behind and these are the things again that was just commonplace when I was in other Industries right and so uh you know everyone a lot of vendors interestingly enough are actually afraid to work with us because of the HIPAA concerns and the liability um so you just have to keep on digging and keep on pushing and keep on finding the right balance between a third-party Tracking Company that will be able to share some data that they are legally and also compliance wise comfortable sharing with and same for us yeah and then um and so so that part we're kind of pushing the envelope a lot um but in terms of the overall tracking attributes and tracking methodology that's uh we're definitely borrowing from previous experiences right that's awesome so um it's interesting what you said about HIPAA and how vendors are a little bit uh hesitant to work with you on that one that's always been something that's brought up when we're talking about technology and Healthcare and communicating with patients is it do you see that more as a true challenge that needs to be overcome or is it more of an excuse that's a great question uh well I think in reality it's a challenge but I tell the vendors it's an excuse um yeah they they are uh they are rightfully protective of their IP and uh coming into a highly regulated highly scrutinized industry like healthcare probably scares people away which I totally understand and get um but I think with time especially in the last five years maybe even less than that more and more of these companies that used to say no to us are now saying yes right and they're seeing the growth opportunity that there is and we're one of the I mean we're the largest industry in the world if not the country but uh the marketing again is so behind that these companies are now seeing the opportunity come and so now they're trying to right size their internal um processes and compliance and and legal and all that stuff to see how we they can work with health care right so we're seeing more and more of that now and so it's it's it's a little bit of both right I I really love what I'm hearing from you and again this is just uh bleeding edge mini health systems are actually in the opposite in the spectrum that you guys are are working at well hope I I don't want to say that's cool but I want all of us to be ahead right but again you know it's just a podcast like this really helps you know others identify and understand what you know their peers are doing kind of across the country and hopefully this will inspire them to either reach out to you and to learn more about what they can do to improve you know their their data yeah I hope so um so what type of kpis do you guys use to measure the impact of your work as as well as your efforts we've got five main kpis and we set quarterly goals against them number one is revenue marketing credit attributable Revenue number two is return on ad spend row s number three is what we call the close ratio which is for our physician Outreach team how many uh Physicians that you visit that started sending us new referrals which is now going to be converted into new referrals because now we just started tracking that um number four is Romy return on marketing investment um and then number five is cost per acquisition especially for like the primary care business you want to fill that funnel of primary care patients as much as possible and you want to do the cheapest and most efficient way possible so you got to keep that metric as well how to get you guys uh identify these five why are these the top five kpis for you guys yeah so my standpoint from a marketing person is always marketing should be in charge of driving the revenue driving the patients creating the customer and traditionally in healthcare that's not really what marketing is perceived as and so by having these metrics you are and sharing these metrics and Reporting out these metrics to our leadership team helps change that perception that hey marketing isn't just a a group of people that makes cool brochures or Billboards whatever you what have you um we're actually we actually exist to drive revenue and so um so my whole stance is I'm going to prove it to you right all of it's incremental and you know return on ad spend or any kind of Roi metric is always incremental based and um we show how we got there and what the trends are whether it's good or bad what channels what campaigns are doing well and we and I make my team report that out on a monthly basis even if they hate it it's it's what our job is we're turning on it's returning an investment that the company has trusted us with right so were these kpis initially driven by you or you're a finance partner or is that a collaboration um it was mostly driven by me and my boss okay um because Finance doesn't really know what marketing is and I don't know what Finance does they handle money right in a very smart way and I'm terrible at that um so it was basically me and my boss coming together it's like all right look we let's how do we change the number one to perception and two really just make it clear what our role should be and what our role is and those are the metrics that we settled on and my boss presented it to the board and um everyone is like that's cool let's let's go all right that's awesome you're totally singing my song and one of the key themes I think in the past couple years that we've been trying to encourage and to communicate out to the industry is that marketing should be viewed as a revenue generator versus a cost center exactly and if you're not achieving that you're doing something wrong so I think these insights these five kpis that you share it hopefully helps the listeners and our audience better understand some of the kpis that they can start gravitating towards yeah and my uh my whole thing when I used to work for Piedmont Healthcare in Atlanta or for any of your non-profit Health Care System listeners um you're taking money from your patients and your community yeah and in many cases uh you're causing financial distress on your patients because of the surgeries or the treatments that they're going through and you know if you're not uh putting good use and being a good Steward of the money uh that these patients are paying you then why do you exist right and so that's kind of been my whole driving force and from a non-profit standpoint um now it will work for a for-profit um it's a lot easier to sell the return on investment story and message and they get it right especially with the private Equity backed group and that they speak that language so that's awesome yeah good for you now um one of the things that I take a look at from a healthcare marketing perspective is you have your brand awareness um and kind of brand campaigns the other thing um that you guys are focused on typically is driving patient volume and there's really two approaches to that I think one is new patient acquisition and the other one is activating your existing patient base yep so do these kpis change for you between new patient acquisition versus targeting your existing yeah um it does change variously for the retention metric we do have a retention metric um but the the kpis the goals itself does change based on new versus existing um so for a new patient as we all know it's multiples more uh expensive that's terrible English it's a lot costlier to get a new patient than to keep a patient right and so therefore it's not cool to have the same return on ad spend expectation or cost per acquisition uh metric for a new versus existing customer so a CPA for retention is obviously or cost to keep is a lot lower than our CPA for a new patient yeah so the goals really don't change that much it's from a from a name standpoint it's really more the goals itself and basically we track we track it very closely and it is still tough to nail down what the number should be because when I ask the peers in healthcare hey what's your roast or what's your Romy yeah uh a lot of times they don't have one yeah um and so we're just trying to figure out like what should the Baseline be and what is good what is bad and so we actually borrow from retail and try to set a goal of four uh a four to one ratio for um our Romeo and Ross and um uh but yeah the numbers definitely change so today not a lot of Health Systems actually focus on the retention piece they don't which is interesting to me because like you're very interesting it's so much more costly yeah to acquire a new page why why is that why why aren't they choosing the cheaper out I mean if I knew that answer um yeah I mean you think about the new you know the traditional marketing funnel right so you have awareness consideration um you know purchase loyalty what have you or however many steps of the funnel you define it as and if you look at a new patient you gotta start from the top awareness which is the most expensive uh marketing cost yeah right and then you have consideration which is again you're pouring a lot of money into trying to do retargeting or other ads or you don't have uh emails yet per se because they're not a patient of yours um use and you spend a lot of money uh trying to get someone to even just consider you yeah uh retention you have their data you have their information they've given you hopefully um you know the agreement that you can start marketing or sending emails to them and on top of that it's 90 plus of your patient base already and so I'd rather focus on the 90 and making sure that the retention is as good as it can be versus trying to uh focus and spend a lot of time and money on the 10 now the 10 or less than 10 for the new patient acquisition part is shorts you know sexier it's more fun you get to do the creative stuff and the ads but really when it comes down to the dollars and cents of it and an investment standpoint retention makes more money uh per dollar and um I don't know why Health Systems don't realize that to be honest with you and you know they always say they're data driven marketers and if you're really data driven then you should be looking at your retention numbers and what percentage of your patient bases new versus existing to hit your goals right and uh you know the numbers that I've seen in different Health Systems 90 of your primary care patients are usually existing exactly and so why are we trying to get after that grow that ten percent when you have all the data you need to try to keep that 90 right so let's let's help your peers out I mean what are yeah what are some uh key differences and kind of strategies and tactics for retention versus acquisition what can they borrow from acquisition for retention and how can they start down that path yeah um well kind of like I said earlier the the funnel right um so you don't have to spend any money on awareness for your existing patients I hope not and you don't have to spend too much in consideration as long as your website and reviews and find a doc all that is updated um um but from no uh so I would say it's the opposite like making the tools making the experience of the patient as as seamless as possible makes it easier to acquire new patients instead of just focusing on the retention aspect yeah because anything above that point you are trying to get as much attention to someone who happens to be in the market of looking for a Primary Care Urgent Care and uh you can't control that state of mind or that emotion when people want to find a new doctor right uh your retention rates are historically across the board pretty actually pretty good um for a primary care doc like the last time you switch primary Paradox I don't know Alan do you see a primary care doctor yes yes I do how long have you been seeing this doctor uh I would say at least four or five years four or five years so I've been seeing mines for 15. okay and even when I worked for a competing Health System yeah I still went to him I didn't want to change right um and so that's tends to be the behavior that tends to be the norm people don't just switch pcps every year right so it is a lot harder to get a new patient for a PCP than is to retain um but at the same time the the tactics that you can borrow off of each other is really more about the experience of booking and post visit and um the web experience and the bill bill experience so as long as you have um a very good experience I think there's just a lot that you can just bar off of each other right so what are some specific efforts that you guys have underway on the return on the retention side that you really see taking off and and working yeah so we just launched a CDP um with with Salesforce and also launched the personalization tool so we've linked the two and it's live now and so what we're doing is our main fy23 strategy that our CMO has declared is making the most use out of CDP as possible and the way you do that is building segments identifying your prioritized segments and so if you have a retention goal which are the segments that you can identify and prioritize and have the highest value and what is the targeting that going to be what is the positioning going to be to that segment and then what is the go to market strategy going to be for that segment and so um it's heavily digital based and then how do we personalize their experience whenever they come to our location or our website or app how do we make it more of an omni-channel experience to make sure that they are again dealing with us in a seamless way as much as possible right and all that's going to be centered around our CDP okay awesome I love the fact that you guys are using that data to Target the audiences right it helps you fulfill that promise of right message to the right patient exactly at the right time um what are some additional challenges that you're anticipating or you're seeing in terms of reaching these existing patients man okay so of course nothing's ever as smooth as you want it to go um weaves surprisingly thanks to our partners in it and and finance and other partners outside the company the the data integration with our EHR was actually pretty smooth thankfully and so that would not be the biggest challenge it would honestly be trying to identify the use cases and enhancements that we want to make as part of our tool so how deep and how broad do we want to go with a really powerful tool like CDP and and our personal personalization tool interaction studio um because they're just uh there's just a limitless number of combinations that you can do now that everything is centralized and so the challenge for my team is how do we prioritize those segments um the second thing is the attribution aspect of it and Healthcare is of course like we just talked about notorious for being a little behind and it's always sometimes never no always it's always an uphill battle to get the right tagging in place and the right tracking in place especially on areas where there might be Phi and so we do have some gaps in our attribution model that um we do small sampling of and uh of course it's all anonymized but small sampling of and try to figure out how we can fill those gaps but making our attribution model more and more accurate is another big Challenge and attributing that back to our CDP right that is that is kind of our next Big Challenge and and on top of that hopefully building a marketing mix model that gives us even more accurate and more holistic looking attribution model or excuse me not attribution model marketing model yeah um so we could refine tactics and channels and campaigns um those are the two that I see in the Horizon okay no those are definitely two very sound strategies I do want to you know the the concept of CDP and integrating with your eh which are very inspiring I've also had the opportunity uh to actually talk with a lot of Health Systems where they're having trouble Healthcare marketers are having trouble leveraging first party data and leveraging oh you can't have access to HR data Phi HIPAA Etc what would be your recommendation to your peers who are in those environments of look it's we're we need to be able to leverage that data to personalize and our Communications to reach out to the right segments yeah my recommendation is to quit just kidding totally kidding uh no that's a very commonplace thing um um it is commonplace and is part of the perception issue that we have as marketers like whoa whoa why do you need patient data yeah right and and so it's all about having a conversation with it folks a compliance folks illegal folks and here's the use cases you tell us what the guidelines are and let's talk through it and hear all these other health systems that are doing the exact same thing as what we want to do and it becomes a negotiation and so uh part of our negotiation at Summit health and CMD was all the people that touch patient data and marketing has to take a compliance course no problem right I mean we should anyways right um and then the second thing is uh you know another best practice was having all data requests go through a data governance committee um so that everything that we do is above the line and and it's transparent and so that they learn that they can actually trust us with the data we're going to handle it response responsibly yeah the last thing a marketer wants to do is honestly uh lose the trust of our customer of our patient absolutely um and so there's always just negotiations that's going to have to happen but you got to demonstrate willingness to be just as protective of patient data and and talk about how you're going to use it be very clear and keep them um apprised and align the whole way through and uh yeah we've done it a couple times now but it always ends up being in a good way like a much better working relationship with it with our bi team with our um with our compliance team with our legal team and and we know where the hard lines are that we just will never cross right so based on what you shared with me I'd love to be a patient of uh some health come on over we'd love to have you but um how are you measuring the kind of that that patient experience or what type of metric are you using there to engage your uh one thing I love about this company one of the many things I love about this company but they are very obsessed about NPS and so we actually do a lot of MPS surveys and it's actually part of the Dr comp model as well um and so we have a whole uh report in RBI dashboards all about MPS where you can filter it down to the date location the doctor the type of procedure all of these types of things and for any of our City MD locations and then we actually look at that on a very very regular basis as a whole team not just marketing team but as the leadership team and then try to figure out how do we improve The NPS course and how do we focus on getting more surveys out when we need to or how do we figure out like hey this group here came during a very very busy period of to our city MDS yeah so what message can we send out to them so to make sure that they come back right and make sure that they're aware that this is a good place to come back to this one's we've figured it out or we're sorry for your past experience Etc right but we're pretty obsessed about NPS great how long have you guys been using NPS for to measure that oh before my time so at least two years or at least three years at least so I I can't give you the exact answer but it's been many years for sure all right yeah um have you been able to kind of see the Improvement of the MPS score since you've you've been there like a percentage Improvement you know our NPS has definitely improved quite a bit okay I will say that and we actually do a survey asking NPS scores against our competitors as well yeah and our numbers are always consistently High however I can't take any real credit for that because I don't have direct oversight of the experience of the patient our Ops team does and they do an amazing job yeah and they I mean I'm serious they really really look at those numbers every day it's I'm I'm very impressed by how they are really attuned to the customers feelings and and expectations and perception but you are a part of that attribution right it may not be a significant part but at least a little part maybe a little part yeah yeah hopefully I mean we we do build segments based off of The NPS course right and and we do Target people that we again uh did not have the best experience right and so so sure in that sense okay right no I I really like that approach right especially most people especially most Healthcare would probably shy away from that but for you guys tackling head-on I think that's making lemonade out of lemons right and it's a great opportunity for you oh yeah to deliver absolutely yeah so what's next what's next for your patient initiative patient retention initiative patient retention initiatives well we're gonna get uh very granular and we're partnering with our implementation partners and also our data science team to start building more and more complex models using machine learning to try to create look-alike models and also maybe patient cohorts of the type of patient um that we're trying to prioritize from a profit lifetime value or um other other strategic plan goal standpoint and so that's the next challenge we have CDP how do we link it Direct quickly into a machine machine learning tool and get a lot more complex as opposed to trying to brainstorm ideas or segments right now right so so that's really fun to me being able to use tools like that and I don't know how many Healthcare systems are doing this today but um it's something that we're we're pretty dead set on and moving forward with right um that's that's very impressive uh what's kind of LED you to this particular step in terms of oh let's take a look at using machine learning to develop these models yeah we are a you know you had to crawl walk run approach and I've always said that we started with tummy time like we're just trying to figure out how to roll over um we're probably at a light jog if we want to go to a full Sprint what does that look like and so we actually have this roadmap that we've planned out what does a Sprint look like it's usually it's using AI it's using ml it's um launching and using our CDP to the maximum capability it's it's basically we bought a Ferrari it's trying it's time to take it on the track and become experts at it yeah and so again what does that look like here's what that looks like and here's what we're driving to and that's how we determine what's next right so part of the challenge I think especially in healthcare is like getting everyone else on board so yeah who are the other who are your partners in this initiative yeah we have a lot of Partners um so so we did a pretty big Road Show internally okay when we were talking about CDP and so it was Finance it was our chief operating officer our chief data science officer or chief product officer our CEO and then CIO and the VPS underneath them we spent a lot of time honestly educating them and why we need a CDP at least for marketing if not for the Enterprise right and just got by and answered all their questions as much as we could and to make them feel good and and comfortable we had a business case laid out that showed a pretty good return within a short time period which I had Finance vet with me yeah so that I could make sure that my numbers were reasonable it's not conservative and um so that's that's kind of how we want that's how we approach it normally is just getting people on board first and making sure they know what we're doing uh because especially from the data standpoint you know it involves a lot of data and so uh just continuing that transparency approach right now I think that's a fantastic approach and you know kudos to you to be able to pull together all those uh support and champions yeah now I got to deliver on the results we'll see peace done exactly hey Andrew um I want to say thank you so much for coming in today and talking with us happy to be here yeah about uh data driven marketing um if people want to continue this conversation and learn more from you and all the Innovative things that you're doing what's the best way for them to get a hold of you sure there's many ways um so I will say LinkedIn obviously uh not the I'm not the most active person on LinkedIn to be honest with you but LinkedIn um and then that's pretty much it I don't think I want to give it my phone number or an email address but uh or they can ask you Alan sure you can be the guy with the answers or they can come to conferences what are some of the conferences that you attend that they can come and meet you and yeah uh the two conferences I usually go to hcic and hmps and then um dream force or uh um you know we're we're a big Salesforce shop so we'll be at the Salesforce conferences and we usually speak there and um you know concerts I'll be performing you can see me perform there no I'm just kidding um you could see me just around around one I'm pretty accessible though I'm always happy to help like I really do believe in making sure that the marketing function in healthcare right moves forward in a more faster Pace right well again Andrew thank you so much so for our audience that's watching and or listening um highly recommend you check out these conferences and grab Andrew Corner Andrew uh if you get a chance all right Andy yes he likes to be referred to doesn't matter but thank you very much again Andy for for your time and until next time hello hi if you want more of the latest from healthcare's thought leaders subscribe using the button below or you can visit hellohealthcare.com to get updates directly in your email [Music]