Online contact management for product management

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what are hiring managers look for in in this scythe hustler or these projects or these products that aspiring pms build when i'm kind of thinking as a hiring manager what i hear from other hiring managers in pm dojo these are some of the things that keep on coming um they want to see if you can think like a product manager essentially like as a hiring manager we want to see if i see a site project or if i see a deck i want to see if you are able to think like a pm approach the problem like a product manager if you're able to decouple decompose things ask the right questions what kind of assumptions you're making are you able to kind of solve it in a way that kind of fits the mold i'm not looking to see if you can fill in the blanks on all of the templates no right and that is what product sense is [Music] hello everyone and welcome to diego granados and i'm a product manager and today i have a very special guest with us i have bosky with me who is the founder of pm dojo pm dodge is a learning community for aspiring pms or career career transitioners who are wanting to break into product she'll tell you more about that but first of all bossky how are you it's a pleasure to have you here it's a pleasure to be here diego this is uh yeah this has been a long time coming thank you now i'm doing really really well really really well thank you that's awesome and and once again thank you for being with us today and before we get started into talking about products projects pm dojo why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself absolutely so baskey mukherjee uh currently in beautiful vancouver bc british columbia in canada i have been in product and technology now for 20 years i kind of saw the very beginning of what product management used to be even before i knew what product management was i'm also a mom to a six and a half year old so life's been really crazy since pandemic started with homes home teaching and everything and yeah so i started my career in product many many many years ago grew my you know into different roles within product different companies fun fact i've worked in six different countries including the tiny island of bermuda i've been a hiring manager product executive and my two stints uh as an entrepreneur right now so there you go and that is an awesome set of experiences and super interesting working in so many different countries and your latest project your latest startup is pm dojo where did the idea from pm dodger came from and and tell us a little bit about about it um so uh pm dojo was really boring out of a few things that i was seeing in the market in our space in in product for quite some time so number one i was really getting frustrated with the whole narrative around the lack of diversity in tech we know that as a fact but what was frustrating was that the all of these conversations would come and stop at the narrative that companies need to hire more diverse candidates right which is a fact but we don't begin with that many diverse applications right so when i was a hiring manager and i was looking at the pool i wasn't getting that many diverse candidates how do we even define diversity that's another point when i talked with other high rate managers at least in north america we were seeing the same trend and so it wasn't just enough to wait for companies to hire more and more diverse people so we had to do something else to encourage that there were way more diverse applications to begin with so what was that i wanted to kind of tackle that and it seemed very scary and very big and of course in a true product manager fashion my mvp was not the whole of tech but i wanted to do something in product so that was number one the second one was i was really again exhausted and frustrated with this whole business of education um it's very much designed for privileged i was an international student myself um you know with a big debt um when i came to the u.s many years ago i talk with a lot of people who want to get into product or in tech with this tremendous amount of debt um and so the way the current education system works is that you pay a lot of money and you spend a lot of effort you spend a lot of time and you end up learning only theory which doesn't help you if you're applying for roles that even entry-level roles that ask for experience so i wanted to do something about that and though that was the primary reason why these two things came into being in wanting to solve um i've been influenced by martial arts even though i know nothing about martial arts but the the philosophy of martial arts is something that i resonate with and so dojo from martial arts it means in japanese it means it's a craft that you learn under the mastery of some kind of a master or a guru and it's very immersive learning and when i think about product management it has felt like martial arts a lot of the times uh it also there's a big piece of craftsmanship that i believe when it comes to building products and so i wanted to kind of bring in those elements and hence pm dojo was born an immersive learning community where you get to step into the role of a product manager before your first role so we tried to simulate all of that in the program so there you go that is an amazing story thank you so much for sharing that breaking 2pm is tough we see it every day and there are many many paths to get into pm you you have focused much more on teaching and helping aspiring pms or career transitioners that they should build products in order to be a product manager why is that why not just take your resume tailor it and apply to the company that you want to i mean i'm not against resume or or mock interviews or any of these things but i think it comes down to the fact that the competition is just getting fiercer every day i think post pandemic uh you know when i'm still working with companies as part of my other venture um you know where i'm at an advisor with a lot of tech companies and i'm helping them build product teams and define what level of product you know is needed and i'm looking at resumes i'm looking at tons like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of resumes for the same role and what is happening thankfully i guess is that most people have somewhat learned how to do their resume right so there was once upon a time where i couldn't even make the difference between a cover letter and a resume they both looked very similar they both had novels written they were like five six seven pages now most people have learned you know one page two page you know put accomplishment put outcome and so if i'm looking at resume and i remove the name of the person most resumes are looking very similar as a hiring manager i don't have a lot of things to know how different one candidate is from the other and there are a lot more other dimensions to us than just a document which is a resume and a url which is our linkedin profile and in order to stand out and in order to be ready for roles that require two years three years four years experience even for entry level roles you have to learn how to do it you and it just improves your odds i guess right um you know if you think about the fact that uh you can read about product management it sounds kind of rational right it sounds practical it sounds sensible but we all know that in the real world so messy uh partly because of people us right like humans right we're quite messy we're complicated creatures right and so it's never just about frameworks um if it was about frameworks then all like disagreements at work you know would have been resolved by changing one framework prioritized different way and we would all be singing kumbaya it doesn't happen like this in the real world right and so how do you stand out and how do you even know if this particular role is for you if you have not done it then you will not know and so my idea and my intention behind pm dojo is that get to build a product live the life of a pm know firsthand if this role is something for you before you kind of get into it and while doing it increase your odds 10 times because you don't have to then struggle with getting your resume through ats you don't have to struggle talking about your transferable skills just demo a product that you launched to a hiring manager uh it's not as simple as that but it does work wonder wonderfully well and it makes perfect sense i mean the way that you describe the the resume is one thing but then showing that you have the experience through building this product is definitely going to set you apart from the competition now a lot of people think that scythe projects are you know a startup a site business is that a science project what is that what exactly is is you know these side projects or these products so terminologies right it's the same thing like frameworks right like if we get like so hung up on this um side projects can be a lot of different things but then you also have passion projects you have side hustles you have all of these terms and terminologies the way i like to think about it in my head is that side project has been there forever a lot of the developers and engineers have typically worked on it and that's what kind of got the popularity as far as i understand and so side project is kind of in any any project we have to define what a project is but any anything that you're working on the side you have your day job or your main thing whatever you're working that pays your bills and everything and then you're kind of doing something on the side that you're deeply passionate about that somehow either fulfills your need uh you know some need that's not getting fulfilled at work or maybe it is something that allows you to tinker and learn new skills um or anything that you do on the site that typically at a very very high level is a side project it may or may not monetize right usually it's not monetizing at a side hustle uh on the other hand is something that is monetized so usually people who have their day job or night job whatever your situation is um you're doing that but then you have something on the side that you may have started as a fashion project or a side project but it's now becoming a hustle which i don't like the word hustle but yes it is something that's is running by the side that is also generating your side income a lot of people especially after pandemic are really beginning to think that especially as they're thinking about what's going to happen with their work are they going to have a job do they even want to have a job do they want to do this a lot of people right now are beginning to uh there's a lot of inspiration to become a creator and a builder in the current economy and the world we live in so side hustles really really work well startup i mean startup is very different though right like it can start as a side project but then it's i guess the intention behind how serious you are in terms of making it like a fully fledged adventure you're going to be hiring people eventually i think the seriousness becomes a lot more and eventually you do want to leave i guess your job and kind of start focusing full time i would say just at a high level that's how i try to explain myself what these differences are i don't get hung up with these definitions i guess it's i think more the intention but the goal is and how you're getting about it to do this when when aspiring bms think that a scythe project has to be a you know a full company end-to-end and and and you're absolutely right right some people take their passion project and that becomes a startup and it's something else but it doesn't have to go to that extent it can be like you said a site hustle a passion project something that you're interested in besides your work your school whatever you're doing now speaking of these projects um whatever you know people are doing out there what do hiring managers look for in in these projects right because we talked about there's a resume and and you show that you can be a pm by actually showing that you are already a pm in your site hustle in your startup in whatever project you're doing now just to finish the question many aspiring pms send me their portfolio or or their project or their site hustle for feedback and most of the times it's either you know a very very small simple presentation with a few words and how they would improve their favorite app sometimes it's just the website but but that's it so so what are hiring managers look for in in this scythe hustler or these projects or these products that aspiring pms so i think when in my mind i think just that when you're talking about a diego like if it is like a critique the design critique of an existing product um you know which is like a deck for me i wouldn't consider that a side project like for me when i think about a side project it needs to be something that you've kind of built and launched so like what you do right with your youtube channel right all of that for me that would be a side project maybe eventually can become something else but it is a side project where you built it i think a lot of the times as product managers would be product managers we are constantly thinking about products you know i'm gonna pick up my new phone i'm gonna automatically i should automatically start thinking as a pm what is what is going on here right like is it good not bad how can i improve what am i not like i think it just becomes natural in us that wouldn't be a side project for me that would just be my me just practicing right and and getting maybe it can become a portfolio maybe just like you know you may want to um i think when i'm kind of thinking as a hiring manager what i hear from other hiring managers in pm dojo these are some of the things that keep on coming um they want to see if you can think like a product manager essentially like as a hiring manager we want to see if i see a site project or if i see a deck i want to see if you are able to think like a pm approach the problem like a product manager if you're able to decouple decompose things ask the right questions what kind of assumptions you're making are you able to kind of solve it in a way that kind of fits the mold i'm not looking to see if you can fill in the blanks on all of the templates no right and that is what product sense is right a big part of product sense i think for me as a hiring manager is also your spidey sense so something that i have strongly believed is that as product managers we get paid not because we can solve our own problems but we should be able to solve we should be able to identify the right problems in the market that needs to be solved and then kind of work with the team to solve it so if it's that then um we shouldn't be kind of seeing a side project where you cannot tell me about who the customers are what their pain points are i'll give an example um i was you know once hiring for a pm role um i received a candidate's resume um and they had like six or seven site projects on paper it looked wonderful right uh it went into two pages it was an entry-level role but six seven side projects right i was just amazed i mean a lot of the times i would see volunteering roles that would excite me but this time they had actually done site projects there were links and everything i of course didn't have all of the time to go through all of the links but i was like worthwhile i want to talk to talk to them and so as i started interviewing you know my first question was can you tell me a little bit about this they started talking about how they're interested in some technology and they wanted to tinker along with it and they kind of did something and that was what the what the site project was like went to the next one we went through all of the six or seven side projects not one was about a pain point that was not for them or their one friend or two friends or it was not for the family member and there was no like you know the the mindset for how do you even validate how do you find out how big of a problem is it why does that problem exist that thing wasn't there so you can work on as many side projects but if you don't start thinking like a pm to identify those problems and go through those i guess you know the stages of validating right and it becomes kind of pointless right so in summary i would say as a hiring manager you want to kind of you want to see from candidates who are thinking about the problem as a product manager really questioning themselves and why is it even necessary to solve this and then if it becomes like a side project then you can launch it and you can see it i wouldn't want to see a deck all of the time decks have become too common now so again i think standing out i like to see something that that is built and something more than a website that has all the information it should do something right you know a lot of the times i just see aggregators you know and then it might have a button and if i click the button i get to send an email i mean for me that's not a product right uh it's just a website let me retake one very important thing that you said because you're absolutely right a lot of times i receive a portfolio a project a link url something and the first question that i ask myself is are they doing this because they found the problem they talk to users or because they have the problem they think it's a problem for everyone and then they solve it and most of the time the answer is is the latter they never stop for a moment to think is this a problem am i solving a problem or am i just having an inconvenience with the product and i want to change it and that's crucial not only for these site projects and the products but also for interviews because as pms you never improve a product based on what you think it's always about the users the pain points the market research so that was fantastic thank you so much for for sharing that with us now thinking about these products and you mentioned yes making a button send an email is definitely not a full product but at the same time a lot of people don't have the technical background they're worried they won't be able to create a project should they be worried do they need to take classes on coding how do they go about this this is like i i i sometimes wonder what started this myth you know like it's like in every single thing uh probably it is you know people like me who transition into product from a computer science background and here i'm talking about no you don't need technical background i don't believe uh that you need a technical background with a caveat and again this is not like an aha moment i'm sure that this is people have heard this time and again if you're looking to transition or break into product and this is your first time and you don't come from a technical background you don't need to take coding class because as a pm you don't have to review code you don't have to sit down and write code you do need to understand at a very conceptual level how software gets built you do need to have passion for technology and software if you're talking about product management in tech but you don't need to sit down and write code you don't even have to manage developers right uh usually you're going to have someone who's going to be managing but what happens is that unless and until you are trying for a role where either the product is like a devops uh maybe it is an api maybe it is a platform maybe it is iot so really technical products of course there your chances of course get very limited if you don't have come from a technical background uh sometimes i've also seen where in companies uh or hiring managers there might be a little bit of a bias right like we all have biases right all of us have biases some people might have a bias that i need to have only people who come from a technical background because our internal stakeholders are very technical and it'll be just so i think you have to kind of think about those but for most roles in pm you don't need to unless and until you have some passion and some understanding of how software gets built um but you don't need to have a technical background if you want to launch something on the side so like in pm dojo we have partnerships with no code platforms um no code platforms has been there in existence for a very very very long time and it took the entire startup world by the storm especially for non-technical founders about nine ten years ago it was impossible for a non-technical founder to even believe that they could be someone who could launch their own business or their product right they would either have to the path would be they would have to go and find a cto that they've never worked with or maybe someone they've worked with many years ago then they've tried to bring them as a cto they try to start working or maybe you have to spend money in hiring a deaf team and then when they would be ready to get funding and all of this their conversations would turn into well what's your runway how much have you spent uh how many customers do you have well none but we've spent all of this money right and now what non-technical founders are doing for the last several years is that they have they are using no code platforms and you can actually build with point click drag right it's not as simple as that but it's very very simple point click and drag you can launch production quality software both web apps both mobile apps um with actual users with data with integrations with all of that and you can get through all of that validation so no you don't need to learn how to code you certainly don't need how to code you do need to understand though how software does get built at a high level um and then you can go from there and use technology to beat the myth that you need to be very technical in order to get into product now that is fantastic and plus one to everything you said including uh or especially the no code platforms i think there are so many options out there nowadays that you don't need to know how to go if you want to do it that's awesome but you don't need to do it to build products or to become a product manager so that's fantastic thank you for sharing that posky now um another very typical question that i get in my messages about products inside projects people come to me and say can you tell me what product should i build um how should they think about building these projects should they you know do a side project on a company they want to get into should they try to come up with something how do you answer to all of these that that come to you and ask you tell me please tell me what to build please come and tell me what you get how what should i build it's a golden question isn't it like if i had all of these ideas i would probably be a multi-millionaire sitting in a vc right um you know exactly um i would say we should you know we've heard of this right it depends that famous answer i think it depends we've i've certainly seen people who have gotten opportunities by working on something that they wanted to improve so we had a speaker come in in pm dojo a few cohorts ago they are in linkedin they basically published an article a really well written article it wasn't superficial one it was really well taught off about their experience with a certain product and how they would improve it it was very very critically written as something that i really it's one of those examples that i have um and they ended up actually getting invited for an interview right um so we've seen that happen um but i think it comes down to that basic fundamental question how are you gonna stand out when most people are kind of writing about this and and so it is one of those it is tough but it is one of those easier steps right easier ways to kind of think about a product and kind of come up with a critique um i'm going to give an example of um what happened when i was doing my mba and you don't need an mba to get into product that's also the thing i did mba for very different reasons another another very cool question and yes you don't need an mba don't need an mba i i really think you know that mba story is actually this is just my interpretation i might be totally wrong here but a lot of people actually still come into product from technical background right and that's how product managers were hired long time ago too right folks from certain university kind of get them and you start kind of working on the product and so there is obviously a gap between technical and business and you try to kind of understand that so i really feel that mba requirement or that bullet point in the job description really kind of has stayed from there but that's the story for another thing you do not need an mba um but i i think it comes so when i was doing my mba we had a strategic advantage or some kind of a core module it was many years ago and we were sitting there and it was a case study about microsoft and we were sitting there and we were reading that case study and there were quite a few things that kind of didn't go uh what it should the way it should have been and i'm sitting there with a few of my teammates and i'm like duh like you know we spent half an hour in reading this case studying we already kind of have a pretty good understanding of how things shouldn't have been done so here we have these really smart people in a company maybe microsoft maybe anything right like when you're when you're working through case studies and all of this right and how come they couldn't figure it out like how come and we sitting here we haven't even finished our mba right we're obviously not as smart as these awesome people how could we figure it out right um and we had one of the industry veterans come into a class for a lecture and i asked this question and they said something that's kind of remained really kind of foundational to me throughout these years is that they said hindsight is always 20 20. and so when you're doing a deck or you're working on a case study that world is very sanitized the real world is not sanitized we can sit here critique all of that in order to implement it it's a really really whole another ball game and it's not just about implementing it you have to also make sure that users are using it or if they're using something else that they're adopting your product how are they increasing their usage they're all these different elements it's not just about shipping right it's not just about check mark and so i think it all comes down to this right if you're thinking about this doing a deck or doing a design critique on a product might give you some brownie points but it might not be all the things that you need in order to kind of make that transition happen and cross the bridge and so why not kind of figure out what you need to solve in order to think about what you need to solve it comes back to this fundamental question that is pms very much we have to develop that spidey sense right we need to be able to uh be able to put in all of these things uh map them out in our head and kind of make some deductions on what might be some of these pain points that we actually validate and then solve for and i think that becomes the thing that you have to kind of start learning it doesn't have to be scary uh you know i can give a few examples right like like in pm dojo we've had teams who have built and launched a product for helping victims from domestic abuse connect with each other and even know if they are in an abusive relationship because a lot of the times people don't know they're in an abusive relationship we've had a product that's launched and gordon did that gordon and his team where they wanted to solve a problem for earlier career professionals to get career advice from more professionals in an anonymous way you know very pretty simple problem uh in the world that we live in today the unfortunate the only unfortunate aspect is that there are more problems than solutions so you can i'm sure that people if you think a little bit talk to people uh you will you will find problems you know and you will get to know the more people you talk to is this a real problem how important is it how how frequently does it happen to you is it like once a year you know uh that's amazing and so um i have a follow-up question for you when you mention yeah it's not just about launching the product and that's it at the end of the story so when we think of these aspiring plums aspiring pms building products or scythe projects or scythe hustles to show that they can be product managers they launched that whatever it is an app a website portfolio whatever it is they launch it um now what do they do after that how do they tell the world the hiring managers hey i built something i can get a job into pm how do they do that okay okay um and uh so my question would be diego are you talking in general are you talking about how we do in pm dojo whichever you prefer i mean as advice to somebody who's building a side project yeah what do they do after they launch it so one thing is you don't want to wait after you launch it to do your marketing just like in the real world in the real world you're thinking about adoption how are you going to create awareness so it's no point even in the real world as a pm and i see this mistake so many times where you've launched it and then you start thinking oh boy now we need to work with marketing [Laughter] i've made that mistake so and i've seen that many times just like that when you're working on a side project or whatever side thing you're working on in order to kind of stand out you want to make sure that you're not waiting until it's done because you also have to make sure that you're getting people excited all these different kinds of people you know when you're doing your initial validation uh you can sign up people for your beta you know so there are lots of different ways like you have to really start thinking as a product manager this is why right it's you have to get out of a project manager mindset where you're managing a project really start thinking as a product manager and as a product manager usually i'm thinking where am i going to get my users how am i going to get my users how am i going to think about converting those users into customers right what does that journey look like and so i typically tell people not to wait until the end this is what we do even in our program um we start right from this the second week itself right where you are basically validating you're trying to test how big the market is and every step of the way you're validating with users you're trying to get them excited you're trying to get customers and organizations excited who might partner with you uh it's not easy but that is something that it is like one of those hurdles that we have to kind of get over with in order to get that um and then the more you kind of do all of this work up front you have less of a trouble trying to kind of start the whole marketing or the go-to marketing effort right more than the side project or the product that you've launched even as a aspiring pm or as a professional who's thinking into transitioning into a product i've always believed that you need to manage your career as a product right and so if in the real world you have to do go to marketing or you have to work with someone who does go to marketing for your product uh i wasn't that fortunate i i only had a go-to marketing like a marketing product marketing person once in my entire career other times i've had to kind of figure it out somehow um but you have to make sure that you're spending some good amount of effort on go to marketing for yourself so whether that means that you're sharing stuff what you're learning what you're thinking what you have to have a point of view as a product manager and a lot of times i see people who come in even for interviews and say i don't know which way and what to do well you have to have a point of view based on what you have heard what you've learned what you know um and so how can you have these intelligent engaging conversations with the community at large and it's become so easy to do that right now right on linkedin and all of these different platforms so yeah don't wait until the end do these little steps throughout to make sure that you're building that traction um through a lot of different ways linkedin is my favorite depending on your product of course you know your and the audience and yeah your audience and all yeah i think that if it were as easy as build it and they will come probably marketing wouldn't exist and the reality is that it's not like that so there's a lot of work that needs to happen throughout the whole development of the product or the project like you said not just wait until you launch it and then you have to do again all the work so that is fantastic i have then even if you think diego sorry like even if you think of a real like a real product right in the real world when we right let's say it's existing it has tons of customers even then as pm's we have to think about a feature discovery so many times you know we are using products that have tons of features and half of the time even as a user of the product i don't know of a feature that was launched so i mean exactly yeah you have to think right yeah that makes a lot of sense uh that's a great example and and i have one last question for you about the scythe projects and uh if i'm an aspiring pm i build my product i'm doing all this you know say marketing user discovery i'm doing all of these steps at the end of it uh because say i want to wait until i finally release a product should i ask to my resume product manager should i add to my linkedin product manager or do i just call them scythe projects how do i market myself using these projects for these products it depends i think you have to ask yourself so one key aspect in all of this that we talked today which we didn't talk about is that as a pm you're also not working solo you're working with a team uh because a lot of the challenges that come is around the team level dynamics alignment and all of that if you're working with yourself it's very easy to agree with ourselves right you know we love our own ideas so i think when you're working by yourself and you're working on something i think calling it product manager might be a little bit too far-fetched so maybe you can put it underside projects or and things and you can kind of call yourself that hey you are a product manager for this but you shouldn't maybe make it as the way that you did play the role of a product manager because a big portion of the work you haven't done right in terms of interacting with with a team but if you like in pm dojo everyone puts a product manager at pm dojo because we're really simulating the real world you have a team and you have stakeholders and you have all of that but i think for everyone else yeah don't lie don't lie stay as truthful as possible but you also know that in today's world especially there is a whole new world of recruitment and hiring that is going on outside of your traditional resume which is through talking and building relationships it is a little bit of a long-winded route but don't depend on you know again uh i'll do everything on my resume i'm going to launch my resume and companies are going to be coming it's the same philosophy so you have to kind of market yourself um so so yeah yeah i know absolutely and in this channel and everywhere i i speak about this is i always advise never lie because even if you end up having the interview thanks to those lies you're gonna get caught in the interview and a lot of bad things can happen from of course not getting the offer but also being banned even from the company because of that type of behavior so definitely don't lie but put these projects in your site projects when you talk to people share your experience share your learnings as an aspiring pm uh but if you didn't do the work of product manager just don't put it in your title but like boski mentioned and i think it's our favorite word in the entire product management universe it depends it depends it really depends and you know titles are not the main thing though right like it's about this i think good hiring managers will see it right so if you're able to talk about that which is why it is so important to not rely on your resume and ats systems all of the time so if you can talk to hiring managers do casual informational chats you can talk about those experiences and find every possible venue to stand out absolutely and i have two more questions for you today okay one is any final advice for aspiring pms out there about anything any advice any advice uh believe in yourself right it starts with that don't follow the typical crowd these days everyone wants to become a product manager just like a few years ago everyone wanted to become a management consultant it was one of those big fights so spend some time to reflect on your why for product management or any kind of product role um right that reflection is really important because one you know you're going to be asked that question in the interview and you don't want to give answers like how i used to do it for years which is i come from a tech background i'm going to be great with devs oh now i've done my mba i'm going to be great with the business stakeholders i love working with customers uh you know these are such generic answers that when i used to answer it that way i thought of course i put in a little bit more color to it i thought that there were really good answers until i switched my seats and sat on the other side of the table hearing similar answers and it was so mundane and boring so if you want to differentiate yourself again thinking like a product manager who who is your target user your target users are companies you're hiring managers recruiters what do they need what are they paid points you've got to change your story right so and for that you want to really know your why what is that why second piece of advice i would say would be we all have gaps tech is evolving every day the role of product evolves a lot is evolving and so we will always have gaps and so you know if you were to kind of take a stock on where your gaps are and then look at some of the roles that interest you and then do some sort of a kind of a reflection exercise on how big broad deep wide those gaps are and what are some of the smallest experiments i can do in order to validate if those gaps exist how can i fill those gaps so a little bit of reflection is something that i would definitely request all aspiring pms um to undertake um third one would be around imposter syndrome i don't think we can ever not talk about imposter syndrome i think my take on imposter syndrome is kind of a little bit different everyone kind of talks about how you need to manage it how you need to solve it how you need to deal with it and my thing is i don't think we need to deal with it um impasto syndrome is very real and human uh it always existed uh i obviously didn't call it imposter syndrome back when i was dealing with it i think even you it's kind of just gotten a lot of traction and marketing all this marketing language has come up recently because of the awareness but know that it's so human and it is very natural feeling that we get whenever we are in this situation where we've never done it right and so if we didn't have this so-called imposter syndrome we would basically become these cocky jerks that no one would want to work so it is that threshold that switch that actually prevents us from turning into those overconfident jerks and so just embrace that feeling is what i say it's not easy um i think for me my natural reaction is i get into that but then when my rational brain kicks in i'm like okay you know it's an opportunity where i don't know so i need to figure out how i need to kind of overcome that um so i think that is something that i would like to share and don't try to kind of manage and solve it right it is something that's natural it's just like someone telling you find a way so that you're not gonna be so happy or find a way that you're not gonna laugh so much or find a way they're not gonna cry so much it's just a natural feeling uh what else um oh there's so so many things connect connect with the right people talk take time hiring like i heard one of our hiring managers say hiring is very much a relationship building activity uh it is not transactional uh for most of us and so get to know people uh relationship is also a two-way street don't just ask for can you give me a job or can you make can you connect me with your network i do get those messages uh you know try to kind of know the person that you're reaching out to and and see if you can help them they would probably want to help you back as well right absolutely all of that makes perfect sense thank you for sharing that the last question that i have for you today is where can people find more about you and pm dojo how can they learn more from you um absolutely so i am i'm really active on linkedin um i really like my linkedin community so you can definitely find me on linkedin uh both me as well as pm dojo if you're interested to learn about pm dojo what it is you can go to pmdojo.me and yes you can check out the product accelerator our next cohort is starting in august and spots are filling up so if you're interested definitely you can go to the website diego i'm not sure if you can maybe share that uh in the yeah don't worry every all the links to to find boss key and find tm dojo will be in the description below awesome and yeah if you're reaching out to me on linkedin please put in a message and then i will i can definitely guarantee you that i'm going to connect with you sometimes if i don't get messages i kind of put that at the bottom of my to-do list and the motherhood aspect comes into my life and then i forget about product managers that i think about my six and a half year old so if you put a message i'm going to do my best to get back to you this was absolutely amazing thank you so much for being with us today thank you diego this was really really a lot of fun and thank you so much for having me thank you and for everybody watching thank you so much and we'll see you next time you