Streamline Your Document Processes with Pipeline Safety Management Systems for Hightech

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we know there was roughly 200 people on the webcast earlier so that's a good-sized crowd I had mentioned earlier we're trying increasingly to do this to save people from having to travel all the way from Calgary and other places long trips unless you're on the committee of course and then you still have to come but anyway hope you enjoyed this morning session we did try to give you a taste of SMS from other industries in that case we're going to now in this afternoon focus on some of the key elements that you'll be reading about in the SMS and we brought people who we've had the opportunity to see before to try to talk to you and help you understand why we included those and what it might look like in your world so I think with that who am i turning over to to you it's my my distinct pleasure to turn over to my former boss Stacey Gerard member of our SMS committee and representing the public okay very good thank you stacy i am so happy to be able to be here a be on this team and everything that Ron MacLean said about the team is is true he wasn't stretching it at all we're really forged by fire I think at this point and I am very fortunate to have the opportunity to introduce Nick he's just goes by Nick you know when you say Nick everybody in the industry knows its Nick stavropoulos I say that right butcher it because I was just here Nick and nick nick is also on our team but in june two thousand eleven he came to the position of the new executive vice president of gas operations at PG&E what you hear about Nick is that he is probably the most experienced leader and gas operations in the United States I don't know about worldwide but to take on the topic of leadership we couldn't ask for anybody more experienced more sensitive more focused on safety and those are some of the things people say about them and for those of you on the webcast you probably can't see but his shoulders are about 8 feet wide he stepped up to the plate to probably one of the most challenging jobs we have in the u.s. so we are so fortunate to have him today on the topic of leadership my favorite element Stacey thank you Wow stop the workout I think right thank you all good afternoon my real pleasure to be here with you to talk about safety leadership and I know that after a few remarks that the Stasi and Tracy are going to organize some questions and we'll have a hopefully a real good dialogue I also want to acknowledge the work that ron has done to lead this team you know I think when all's done we have to get him a hurting cat hat but he's done a fabulous job and Ron I really enjoyed and learned from your leadership of how to bring diverse groups together and reach consensus on such an important topic of safety within our industry right and I can remember back on june thirteenth when i started my first day at pge which was about nine months after the san bruno incident and i flew prior to coming to PG&E I had run gas operations the United States for national grid so I was responsible for the third largest gas company in the country we had operations in in four states had 28 unions supporting me in that effort and I thought that was a pretty challenging job but when I when I took that plane across the country on june twelfth to come from boston to san francisco i happen to have a window seat and just marveled it was a beautiful day crystal clear all across the country and really just marveled at at at our great country and the terrain the environment and then I got the thinking about the 2500 miles that I was traveling and that you know my gas pipelines were under terrain like that right in cities and across valleys and under rivers and bodies of water and across desert and then I thought you know we have 80,000 miles of this 80,000 miles which if you go back to your fifth grade geography if you wrap it around the world it's three x plus right and so that was going to be the responsibility that we had at PG&E to take ownership and responsibility of this 80,000 miles NE inch of which if it operated incorrectly could hurt or severely injure someone so that's sort of my starting point when I came to San Francisco at PG&E and the very first thing I did when I walked in and do it on my office at a big white board and right at the top of it I put my job is to improve the safety culture my job is to improve the safety culture and that's really what I focused on for two and a half years and I'm going to talk to you about some of the things that I've try to do as a leader that we try to do is leadership team at PG&E going to talk a little bit about some of the things that we've had to do to demonstrate that that we just didn't have words but we've had deeds as well along the way so improving safety culture you know I think we heard from some of the speakers this morning this is not a light switch right this is not a light switch it's not something that my boss Tony early whose fabulous boss by the way great great guy best CEO he's listening I hope if he's not we're going to sell him the YouTube video but Tony comes from the nuclear Navy comes from two previous companies that have nuclear operations and so understands that even though you operate in a very hazardous environment if you understand the risks and you take the steps necessary to mitigate those risks you can operate extraordinarily safely so it's great to have someone at the top of the organization who own safety when Tony came two months after I did he formed the chairman Safety Council and he brought in our big unions the ib w and engineers and scientists of California and put them on the chairman Safety Council with him to talk about what we were going to do to improve public and employee safety so it really does start from the ownership and commitment at the top of the organization which gives me the confidence that Tony Chris Jones our president the Board of Directors has my back you know when we make decisions to when we find things and we go out and fix them I know that that our board our Chairman our president has my back and and my team knows that knows that as well I think we really had a seminal moment at PG&E when we had really the first opportunity to turn lemons into lemonade and it was six months after i was at PG&E and really was trying to create an environment where our people felt more comfortable reporting things that were broken to identify issues and problems and that was very much not the pge culture that existed we had a something called positive discipline I didn't quite know what that was but i think it's like you know you're going to have your cod liver oil and you're going to like it maybe kind of thing but we were really trying to change that because we're finding people just weren't identifying and reporting problems and so i would go out to the various locations and evangelize about the importance of identifying issues if we don't know about it we can't fix it these are some of the mantras that you hear in our company but what happened was one of our mapping supervisors along with a with a with a minister in the mapping area had identified 17 plat maps out of 22,000 that we had that hadn't been properly leaked survey for some reason it fell through the cracks and pge system we self-reported that and three weeks later we would find 17 million dollars so that was kind of a tough thing right to have happen when we knew we had problems the NTSB had issued a report four months earlier had identified 12 specific weaknesses that pge pge had to address and one of them was records lo and behold we find a problem with records and we're fine 17 million dollars so I had a choice to make right was they going to fight this and argue about it or was it going to take this an opportunity to turn lemons into lemonade and so that's what we decided to do and make sure we broadcasted a communication for me to all 22,000 of our co-workers at PG&E that I was proud of our employee the employees that call this out I was proud of the fact that we self-reported and whether they find a 17 million dollars a 70 million dollars I want us to do the same thing and that was a huge moment for us it was really the first opportunity for people to visibly see that we were changing the way that we went about doing business the other way we changed businesses in my office I had a giant wall and on one side I had a giant picture of a lemon and the other side picture of a lemonade and we asked people to send me pictures of all the things they found and we put it on the wall of lemons right and it's little things like that that resonate markedly with our people right it's the mantras that we have find it and fix it is not just words at PG&E but you can hear it at the lowest levels of the company that they know that's exactly what we're going to do that so we're going to try to do if we don't know about it we can't fix it is another another example when I came to PG&E another thing that that I did was certainly understand that I really didn't know a heck of a lot and so from a leadership perspective it was important to do what my father said you know God gave you two ears and one mouth and use them in that proportion right so I spent a lot of time listening and one of the first places I went was to the IBD ibew union hall and in Vacaville California I was told I was the first senior executive of PG&E to set foot in the union hall I find out a little bit remarkable it's the largest ibew local in the country it represents all of our gas field workers so one-stop shopping one place to go and I sat down with the gas business agents for about four hours we broke bread together and i would say at that first meeting they really identified probably about eighty percent of the things that we've worked on to try to improve ever since just sitting in and listening to those folks they certainly began to get the impression that we were a different leadership team we were trying to create a different culture and i go back with my senior leaders about every three or four months and we sit and we have similar conversations but now it's changed from all this stuff is broken too you know how can we prioritize how can we work better together so we've really built up the trust factor and working together to solve problems so you know real leadership issue is have to get the buy-in of the people who are actually going to do the work we can have great procedures we can have great work methods we can have great training programs but if we don't have inspired and engaged employees whose hands are going to be the last ones to touch that pipe that valve of that control right whose mind we need to be thinking about am i doing the right thing do I understand the implications of my work you know if I don't know it do I have the confidence to stand up and say I don't know how to do this I need some help right that's what we trying to work on at that level so really began the process by understanding that that I didn't know a heck of a lot and they really helped me greatly along with our other in the engineers and scientists of California who represent my design drafters and mappers and they've been extraordinarily helpful as well at the suggestion of chairman her husband of the NTSB god of our office got in a plane and visited other companies and other industries so we had the great pleasure to be hosted by some terrific companies alaska air we had the chance to see their corrective action program and non-punitive self-reporting and what they had done over the previous 12 years to improve the safe operations of their company after they had a terrible airline crash off the coast of california 13 years ago we also went to norfolk southern railroad in atlanta georgia to listen to them about non-punitive self-reporting and went to Tennessee Eastman corporation beautiful Kingsport Tennessee to learn about chemical process safety because what we found was that really was not a concept or a term that's well known within our gas industry we went to Boeing we went to GE we've been the Ford so as you might imagine we've learned an awful lot from these companies and so we've brought back a lot of those concepts and I would say from a leadership perspective the most fundamental is that we dealt with a leadership team was changing this idea that we had to find if we had a problem we would previously try to find the person who was responsible for it rather than really the system that was the problem right when you go read the last three to four years of the NTSB's reports what you find in virtually every single one of those is organizational failure right organizational failure and what we needed to do is we needed to put in place a non-punitive self reporting system that we tried to model after after the faa's our system after the impo system as well so that we could create an environment where people could report and they knew that we were going to try to understand the root cause of incident was that the lack of proper tools was it the lack of proper training you know what is it that really caused that incident we had a lot of challenge and debate amongst our leadership team you know probably nine months of of challenge and debate but finally we had a new set of safety principles that we adopted with the support of the ib w in the esc and we launched that program at the beginning of last year and we put every single one of our leaders in the organization through new safety leadership training over a six-month period of time so anyone from union crew leader and above that supervises someone went through our safety leadership training we're fundamentally we were trying to change and get away from a where we would we would suspend people and fire people and put letters to the file to really an acceptance of its our problem and we need to figure out and understand the root cause so that we can limit it so that had a huge impact and has really begun to be the basis of a significant organizational change I feel though I'm always reminded I you know for those engineers in the room you might remember the second law of thermodynamics you know it's really chaos theory right that you know without proper control things sort of go off the chaos and I think that that safety and commitment to safety is the same thing it's just an intense effort that needs to be tended to every single day one of the things that we learn when going out to speak to to Alaska Air we went and visited our Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant which is one of the top-rated plants in the country consistently is that is that this takes time right it's it's not something that happens overnight it's something that you need to find out where you are on the maturity curve of safety culture but that wherever you are if you want to get to a place further right on that curve it just takes time and commitment you need to get out of the office you need to get out to the arts one of the challenges that we face is we have a 7 by 24 operation like all the gas operators in the country and we're incredibly geographically dispersed right so how do you go out and touch that person on second shift in burney California that's responsible for the operation of a major compressor station if you don't get out from behind your desk get on a plane and get up and go visit with those folks periodically to check in and see how they're doing so that's a that's a big part about what we're trying to do so it wasn't just important to have words we had to match those words with actions right and so we started with the 12 NTSB recommendation and said I spoke about and we really put our mind to begin to rectify those and so I'm happy to report that nine of them the NTSB have reported are closed and acceptable three remain open we expect that those three might be closed by the end of this year they open and unaccepted they're open and acceptable status right now and they're really time dependent issues completing hydro test work completing our automated valve installation and things like that so we're incredibly proud of the work that our team has done to address those issues we've also invested close to 2.5 billion dollars of shareholder money that's billion with a beat to do over 600 miles of hydro testing and high consequence areas in the bay of california increasing by a factor of 20 the amount of transmission pipe we replace on an annual basis to embark on a program to make our lines more pickable and we've been installing about 75 remote automatically control valves and our transmission network a year so a really intensive effort we spent about 128 million dollars redoing our maps and records of our entire gas transmission network and we we completed that work which represents about 500,000 separate features with four million data fields that are used to calculate the mao p of that pipeline we've reduced our leak backlog on a distribution system from 12,400 leaks 24 months ago we ended up with 151 at the end of december last year we improved our emergency response time for a hundred and ten thousand leaks that are reported in our system our odor calls from bottom of 3rd quartile to top decile we're now responding in about 19 minutes per call verses 33 minutes per call before so you know we had to have the words and the actions and create the foundation but people also needed to see that we were going to put our money where our mouth is even though we haven't received any funding for this yet our commitment was to get the job done another big part from a safety leadership perspective was to put in place a corrective action program and that's where we really look to the nuclear industry and we really went down and put the Vulcan mind-meld on our partners at our Diablo Canyon power plant and we set and learn what they had been doing since the inception of the plant to have a system where everything that happens from a problem with with the stairs coming down from the parking lot to a critical item on maintenance having to do with an important part of our nuclear reactor it gets reported it gets ranked it gets scored and it gets dealt with on a daily basis some of it gets dealt with immediately someone gets put into maintenance program and some of it gets monitored but we put that program in place in September and publicized it and we've seen eight hundred and fifty percent improvement and self employee self reporting of issues so we think that's a real big measure of the safety culture that we're trying to put in place in the organization the other thing we did was we brought in people from the outside to make an assessment so we do something called a premier survey some of your companies like do that but it's a measure of employee engagement and we evaluate how we stand firm engagement perspective against other fortune 500 companies in in all industries we also brought a company in to do a safety culture assessment so that we can look specifically at the safety culture within our organization and compare ourselves again with other companies within our industry and in other companies more broadly it's a very important part of building a strong safety culture you got to know where you are right you got to be able to have the gift of feedback and it's humbling you know I think I think we're on used that word earlier today right it's humbling to look at these reports and in some cases you're not as good as you think and so it really develops and gives a roadmap it's kind of like what we heard from the chemical industry the importance of having the importance of having you know independent assessment what we feel it's important to have an independent yardstick to assess how well we're doing and I guess the last thing that I would share is we really tried to adopt the plan do check act principles of the safety management system that the team has developed here and we didn't have an SMS that we could look to for our industry yet but we wanted to get going so we look to something called publicly available standard 55 pas 55 which is now morphed into ISO 55,000 we embarked on that journey two years ago and we have the independent Assessors started on Monday and that audit will run through April to determine whether or not we are certified under the asset management standard pas 55 we did a self-assessment two years ago in under all the clauses of that standard and found many significant deficiencies and have been working really hard to get those into a better place in talking to the independent Assessors from lloyd's register in London when I had the moat back a few months ago we really talking about the safety management system work that we're doing here and say you know one thing about past 55 it doesn't have a safety culture clause and we really feel that we needed have a safety culture clause in our SMS system and and burning my my my Assessor from from from Lloyds who has assessed the asset management work at over 30 of the largest energy and transportation companies in the world said Nick what I can tell you is that it's going to be very hard for you to obtain certification under their standard unless you have a good safety culture because you need to have a good safety culture to demonstrate competence in all of the elements of a good asset management program plan do check act right no your assets understand their condition understand the threats that impact those assets understand the mitigation measures that you can deploy against those threats risk rank all that incorporate that work into your capital and operating budgets and then check to see if you accomplish what you set out to accomplish if you hadn't change your course to do so that's that's underway we hope to be the first I so 55,000 certified company in the country by mid-year this year and will be I think the only gas company United States if we're if we're lucky enough to obtain past 55 certification by that period of time so in closing this has been the most remarkable and rewarding leadership challenge of my lifetime I don't wish it on anybody I got to tell you it's been a real challenge dealing in incredibly toxic environment this was a horrific accident eight people were killed 35 homes destroyed a whole neighborhood right lost right so I try to put myself in the shoes of those folks that had to endure that awful experience and that's really what drives me every day that's what drives my team every day I've been fortunate I've been able to recruit some of the top gas people across the country I've recruited people from 10 States Canada the UK we brought in some of the best gas talent from all over the world from the Netherlands from Germany and it's been incredibly rewarding for my entire leadership team to have the opportunity to try to make sure that we're operating a safe pipeline you know we only run and operate two percent of the transmission pipeline in the country but we operate ten percent of the high consequence pipe in the United States of America so we know we have a very important obligation that we need to address and it begins by those words that I put on my whiteboard the first day when I walked any office right no my job is to improve the safety culture at PG&E and hopefully we've been able to make a difference so thank you thank you Nick at this point what we'd like to do is open up the floor for not only questions but also conversation one of the great things that I've experienced in working with Nick over the last year or so is his candor and compassion and commitment to these and and one of the ways that he demonstrates it in my experiences is a willingness to to share his experiences the the easy ones the difficult ones the the challenging ones so at this point please come forward and ask questions or engage in discussion and say who you are oh and apparently I'm supposed to say Who I am I'm Tracy Scott with a PF with the API working committee so i'll start off linda darting with femmes a-- you know Nick we know that transitions are difficult I mean you changing human behavior is can be a monumental challenge I mean every one of us knows that we shouldn't text or talk on the phone while we drive but how many of us do it you know so when you're looking at changing behavior as far as reporting and giving people the confidence to make those calls you're going to get to some people you have people to the early adopters how long does it take to turn that ship around get everybody on board well I wish I had a more precise measuring stick on that but it really is interesting in my visits with alaska air and these other companies you know alaska air i recall you know said it's going to take five to six years before they got to the point where they felt that that everyone was on board you know I think in talking to other companies on the industries they talked in terms of five to ten years to go from wherever you are to whoever you want to be as Don mentioned every company has a safety culture could be a bad safety culture could be an okay safety culture could a great safety culture but you can even see in some of these chemical companies that have been at this since what 1984 this still pushing the envelope on continuous improvement and challenging on on how to get better DuPont came in and spoke to our committee and it was just fabulous around talking about hey they bring new employees in and they don't have the DuPont safety culture well they have to learn that they acquire companies that don't have the DuPont safety culture well they have to bring them on and learn that I think I think it was quickest to get our field workers bought in I think the biggest challenge is in the middle and so I'm trying to work down to the organization and I'm trying to get my my partners with the ib w tom delzell who is just an amazing partner he's president of the IBEW Local in California to help me push from from the bottom up so the middle is really where a lot of time and attention needs to be spent because they are the ones that are you know arm launcher is safe reliable and affordable and I think it's the first line supervisor the manager that sort of feels that tension feels that tension the most can you take that just a little further and tell us so how do you approach the guy in the middle and they've probably been with you those guys in the middle of the longest and predate Nick so how do you get to them well I think that's where it's a journey so a couple of things that we really focused on was first off the targeted safety leadership training for these people to make sure that they understood that we wanted to go about leading safety in a different way and we tried to have an officer at every single one of those leadership training sessions so that they could see firsthand that it was a commitment and it just wasn't words we also put our first line supervisors through three weeks of training and we update that periodically and we build into those workshops this notion about how to lead and how to improve safety culture and also that we make sure that employee engagement is an important part of their scorecard so incentive compensation we have forty percent of our incentive compensation is tied to safety goals Public Safety and personal safety goals we have another piece that's tied to employee engagement so when you really look at it over six fifty percent of our compensation is directly tied to safety or employee engagement another big piece is customer satisfaction so it's it's sort of backing up the words with how they're going to get compensated I think that has a positive impact as well how long has that been in place we put the we put the public safety elements into our incentive compensation two years ago and this will be the third year where we've had public safety as a significant portion of incentive compensation question one of the questions that I have nick is can you can you speak a little bit about the changes at the executive table so from from when you first joined to to today how have how have the conversations changed how has the agenda changed how was the decision-making changed I think one of the things that Tony brought to the company was a more rigorous strategic planning long-term planning process and we really pinched from GE their model we all went out to Croton Ville and had a visit with them and and really to understand you know how they go about developing their long-term plans a big part of that is understanding risk and I think that was probably the biggest leadership change to get everyone on board that it was critically important to really understand the that our assets what we operated the condition of those assets it was kind of what Don said earlier you know I think today was not not company a that that had mitigation strategy X or company be that had mitigation strategy why he was worried about company see that didn't even look at their assets to come with any mitigation strategy at all and I think that has been the enormous sea change within our operation so it's not just gas operations but it's electric operations it's its power gen we've radically upped our game in terms of identification of risk risk quantification using that risk quantification to inform capital and operating budgets develop long-term targets for risk reduction having risk as an important part of our conversation I think that was the the element that was impact most it's easy to get people's heads around zero lost time injuries right you know we don't want any of our workers to be killed all right it gets more complicated when you're talking about public safety issues I think especially since even when you look at national data the frequency of events is not huge in mathematical terms you can develop statistically reliable models to drive your decision-making and when you boil it down to sort of regional data to get things that happen frequently that's really hard to to really mathematically quantify so to get people's heads around how are you going to deal with these preventing events that have never happened before right and the nucleus if done a great job at that right it didn't wait for things to happen trying to predict what's happening in the future they're working on you know beyond design basis work right now right so they've designed plants in this saying we're all designed up for these conditions and now they're asking themselves questions okay what if we were wrong and what if even worse things could happen worse than we already thought right so they're they're you know they're addressing knows in dealing with those this question has come over the Internet what do you believe is the impact of improving a safety culture and the impact on the bottom line of the company and is it expensive well I look at this as a marathon not a sprint and when you think about what it's going to cost PG&E when all said and done with the San Bruno incident could be north of four billion dollars right so that's expensive putting aside the human catastrophe which is incalculable right so but I think when you look at the companies that have the safest operations in any industry they have the most engaged employees they have the highest levels of customer satisfaction they have the best safety results and they have the best financial performance because it turns out that in order to do things in the safest possible way you understand well in advance what you need to do you make sure that you have qualified people to do the work that they know what they're doing that the trained they've got the right tools the right equipment the right material eliminate rework you do it all run once safely in the long run I think it's just you know no question it's the absolute way to go Thanks I just want to thank you Nick for the outreach that your your company has done and the learnings that they've shared with the rest of us in industry the yeah your people have been just tremendous in that regard oh I'm sorry I'm Vern Vern Myers TransCanada pipelines the one question I had i guess around the management system side of things there though is how have you as a senior management team been able to address the multitude of information that you get from your operations and the various indicators and kind of sort through all of that critical data to find that you know salient points that really tell you whether the the programs that you're putting in place are in fact achieving the results that that you desire I know I know it's been a challenge for us we've you know historically relied on lag indicators we've introduced many many more leading indicators but again it's it's really you know cutting through all of that chief and and being able to concentrate on that critical critical information that really tells you what's going on at the frontline and that you are moving the needle internally if you could share something with us on that I'd that'd be terrific yeah I would say from a charity curve perspective we're we're way on the left hand side of that we've got a lot of information that we're analyzing and gathering more than we ever have before and I think we're still in the early phases of learning how to sort through all of that I know what we've done is we've broken up into a tacit families within our gas operation and we've tried to analyze lots of data to understand what we own health of those assets that sort of thing and so I can see the maturity of that year over year has improved greatly but i would say we're in the very early stages and probably could learn from from you and and other companies that have been at this for for a lot longer we do we do we do shamelessly go to our colleagues and a nuclear part of our business because they've been at this for all long time as to how you think about data how you sort data what what indicators are tell you the most so we're we're very much in the in the learning stages one of the issues that we've seen other industries wrestle with that we've begun to talk about is this issue of empowering an employee to stop work when they see an unsafe condition and in your company in particular where the issue of stopping work could impact gas supply and critical way how have you dealt with that issue so you know we talked about trying to empower every employee where they can stop work at any time you'd like to think that ninety-nine point nine percent of the time people are going to handle that in a proper fashion so if you don't understand don't know I think it's more about it's great to ask questions and and do reporting but that's been the struggle and I think it goes back to the question that Linda asked about the the middle layer of management being comfortable that anyone can ask a question and you know is that right should we be doing it that way and then also some of our more experienced people being willing to hear the questions from some of the less experienced people and that that's an issue as well you know how do we as that was all part of our safety leadership training that we've begun to roll out that you know as a leader even though you've been doing ask work for 20 years sometimes new people with a different set of eyes and a different point of view might shed light on things that you never thought about before so trying to help people open their minds I think so that makes me think that you might have either informally or more formally identified competencies in leadership and is there are their characteristics that you lay out the training that you say you think are qualities of a good leader or has it has it gotten to that level of detail so yeah we so I think you know a lot of companies have their leadership principles and we're no different I think the only thing that has been a little bit different for us from a safety perspective is we've specifically called out you know these sort of actions that we need you to act that you need you to emulate when it comes to safety issues yeah Mike oh thank you the first question is how has six sigma or other process improvement tools been incorporated in PG&E safety culture how do you jump-start senior management we've got a few questions here what is your training for senior leadership and did training start at the top or middle and then up multipartite question so you know when did the training start we started the safety training at the top and we made sure that the leadership team was bought in and that we had everybody on board that we conducted workshops amongst our officer team and then we rolled it out 22 as I said the rest of the leaders in those workshops were all mixed so you could have directors and managers in with union crew leaders in those workshops and we had an officer attend virtually all of those safety leadership training sessions so started at the top and then we made sure that and that was great to have you know we had people who might have been working in the accounting area in the office and with an electric crew leader and it was good for everyone to hear you know what goes on I think you know one of the one of the slides that was presented today the importance of headquarters understand the impact that they have on field operations so that's what happened there so what's our training for senior leadership so I think I sort of just described that and you know six sigma tools not so much in safety culture you know we really haven't used you know lean are six sigma or workout or any of that for safety culture issues you know we use those tools in selected places for you know process improvement continuous improvement but it's really focusing on specific safety culture surveys that we do by geography by level by line of business you know I know from the recent safety culture survey that we conducted a recent survey that we conducted you know I've got a I've got a problem in a particular area of a region you know that's an outlier so something that we talked about is a leadership team day before yesterday that we need to do something about but we don't use we don't use lean or six sigma around safety culture we're just about out of time I have one more question from from our online viewers and I wonder if there's any additional questions from the audience here all right I'll read this question for you Nick how do you see the difference in the SMS between operational and maintenance aspect of the safety culture looking at lagging indicators as opposed to the integrity management asset aspect of executing white what might turn out to be leading indicators well that's in trouble with it right how to incorporate integrity management into into the SMS and I think that that's something that together we're all going to learn on this journey as to how the integrity management principles that have been widely adopted by the industry in how they're going to evolve as we as we deploy this SMS system so i think probably a question will go unanswered for now I think we're just just about done time Nick thank you so much one of the one of the conversations that we've been having with the with the recommended practice committee is the power of sharing and from learning from each other and and people having the courage to speak up and share their successes and their challenges and certainly making yourself available and sharing the way you did is greatly appreciated thank you well thank you and you know if I haven't said it I meant to say it you know many people in this room many companies across the country Canada other parts of the world regulators officials have been enormously helpful to to pge the time that you have given us to open up your doors allow our people to come look at your companies understand what good looks like has been tremendously valuable for us and we thank everyone that's helped us and we're helping at happy to share you know and whatever small way we can provide to tell you what we do as well