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hello and welcome to this international society of automation webinar my name is matthew and i'll be your global spec moderator and i want to review a few housekeeping items with you before we begin please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the operation of the user interface for today's webinar the large window with the heading presentation in the upper left is the primary window for today's session just to the right of the main presentation window is the speaker bio window with background information on today's presenter and just below that is the q a window at any time during the presentation you can enter a question into the box in the lower section of the window and click submit your question will be placed in the queue to address when we get to the q and a session at the bottom of your screen you will see additional buttons to enhance your webinar experience to see what a particular button does just place your mouse pointer over it and a tool tip will appear with a description of the buttons function now let me introduce today's presenter with us today is donald g dunn professional engineer ieee fellow isa fellow and principal consultant with w s nelson to read more about donald please look at the speaker bio window right next to the main presentation window and donald welcome to today's event and with that i will pass things along to you to get started please go ahead thank you matt welcome everyone i'm uh glad y'all could uh join us today and hopefully y'all will uh pick up some things about alarm management what i'm gonna be talking about is an overview of the alarm management standards that are out there and available to you specifically on the agenda what we're going to cover today is the importance of alarm management first we'll hit on the history of isa 18.2 and iec 62682 which are the principal documents uh from a from a standards perspective out there that hopefully you folks are using on your alarm management within your facilities we'll talk about the alarm management life cycle and that's really only briefly going to get that at a very high level and then we'll we'll do a quick summary and wrap up so let's go ahead and get started so the importance of alarm management when you look at how alarms are used within facilities alarms are often as an ipo or safeguard which helps prevent incidents and one of the things that myself and co-chair of s18 tend to like to do is we we take and read csb reports and other incident reports and have been doing it for a number of years and we have found um in many of those reports that alarms tend to continue to be one of the initiating factors or causal factors within a number of the incidents that you see within process industries globally let's move to the next slide so the cost of poor limit a lot of management why is it uh you know how does it impact your bottom line so it's recognized as a common problem within industry uh alarm management the asm consortium has done some substantial research and they have actually estimated that the cost just to u.s industry exceeds about 20 billion dollars a year as i mentioned uh earlier that it's often cited as a causal factor in many of our incidents within the process industry um and then when you look at when i started in the industry back in the early 90s many of the control rooms were the board mount type control systems we were just starting to adopt some of the dcs type control system so when you walk into a control room you could see the status of the process plant on the wall literally and as we've taken those type controls and migrated them into a descriptive type control system there are more and more features more and more alarms and we'll hit on that in a little bit also and then many alums uh systems uh aren't monitored at all it depends on the the process right so uh one of the things that we have found is the cause of abnormal situations uh human era it tends to be the the largest uh causal factor and then of course equipment failure and process so let's move on so why human or other errors you know why is that the impact you know it's the weak leak we've had operator consolidations and and then there's a lot of opportunities within the distributive control systems as well so let's continue with the cost of poor alarm management so where we hit on that bullet and we've already hit on that one but it's been cited in these specific incidents it's one of the causal factors specifically if you go look at the csv report for a bp texas city you'll find it as uh one of the causal factors that contributed to that incident so the drivers for improving alarm management you know it's recognized as a common problem and this is you know since had been in the distributed control system and i keep hitting on this factor that's often cited as a causal factor but there are business drivers as well if we look at safety and environmental performance many organizations that do alarm management improvement projects find that they improve both safety and environmental performance but they also improve quality costs and uptime from a quality standpoint if you the operator doesn't miss alarms it helps them ensure that the product quality uh stays on spec and then of course the the cost when you have a catastrophic incident or even a minor incident you can have substantial equipment damage and enough time by keeping the process uh within the bounds of the operating conditions in lieu of outside that bounds you tend to not have upsets and in the process unit would tend to operate much more smoothly and then finally linking alarm management improvements to the bottom line so this this is one of the comments i say it's sometimes difficult uh to quantify uh how uh you can have a a uh reduction uh when uh you know you're talking to management when you say okay well we can implement alarm management and it's gonna mitigate us from having catastrophic incidents they they tend to want to have a more quantifiable number and uh nick and i actually wrote a paper a little over a year ago and we provided some quantifiable numbers on on how to tie that back uh to doing alarm management projects and then job retention as well we've actually seen a process incident in the beaumont port author area i haven't seen the csp report on yet but it was a pretty substantial incident and uh the process plant uh is shut down and they're you know last died orders could be down for in excess of the year and all the employees were laid off so that is a impact of not operating the facilities and keeping them up and running okay let's continue on drivers for improvement operational excellence is certainly one of the uh drivers for improved uh alarm management it starts with the operator discipline doing the right thing the right way every time the alarm indicates the operator the right time for them to take an action and the right action for them to take for that specific alarm alarm systems are the good indicator of on operational discipline if we're doing them appropriately right and this includes operations maintenance technical and management functions as well and then of course oe impacts business performance and then the basis to expand the effort alarm management activities helps us improve our safety and our business performance so this is a facility that i worked at in the late 90s through the early basically 1998 to 2006 i was at this chemical plant and this is a operator console that we get alarm management project on and so what you see in this 24-hour period is a total of 2053 total events that the operator saw 980 of them were alarms and then 1070 of them were actual operator actions basically they're making uh set point changes or acknowledging the alarm or whatever action operator took so as you can see there are more alarms than the operator uh needs number one and many of the alarm management features won't use here uh and and basically when you look at that number of alarms in that period of time if we had a uh critical alarm that could impact the environment or or prevent damaging equipment or a catastrophic event the likelihood of the operator being able to pick that alarm out and be able to react to it is is not high okay so let's look at the control panel of like i mentioned earlier to the dcs control system so we we've migrated from hopefully you can see the pointer from this here to this here so the subject control systems replace the old panel mount type control systems where it was uh basically the wall right all your instruments were are controls were mounted in the wall and then what we've seen is the number of tags or data points has increased exponentially in addition the space to display this information is decreased so you look at we went from wall mount to basically computer screens and then the area responsibility has increased you know we've had incidents where at least in facilities i've been at where we've had more than one operator condensed down to one inside operator controlling more than one unit so increasing point count per operator decreasing display area per operator as well so this increasing alarm count uh the panel arms were space limited it was expensive dad alarms uh so you tended not to put in alarms unless you absolutely needed them within dcs realm the the viewpoints all alarms are free right and so each tag can have multiple alarms and i've seen this in areas where we went in to do an alarm management project where you have one tag with you know just an inordinate amount of alarms right and many alarms are set uh because the viewpoint is that they're free so a newly increasing alarms per point decreasing cost per alarm has kind of driven this issue so when you look at our alarm system problems dcs has been kind of the alarm problem in a nutshell you can see the graph here this is uh shows you that from 1960 to roughly 2000 alarms for operative position configured have increased exponentially and the alarms per day have gone up substantially uh and you look at that screen capture those are alarms in a particular process plan as well so thousand alarm events that cannot be evaluated by the operator which alarms are safe to be ignored by the operator that's that's question that each of you needs to ask which ones are safe for them to ignore so alarm system problems summary so past alarms had a dedicated point very few alarms each alarm had a response each alarm was documented you know basically when you look at the panel arm everyone knew what each of those alarms meant and what they needed to do to respond to them today alarms share the same space we have thousands of alarms many of them have no response uh many of them have no documentation i've seen that uh many times doing alarm management uh projects when you'll see a good example of alarms is you've got a and a b pump uh the a is running the b is not and the b is an alarm because it's not running that you you see that in almost any facility that you go to a long management project all the equipment that's not running is typically an alarm that that's a good example of alarms that should not be on the screen so common alarm problems alarm overload it's a substantial problem uh within the process industries so when we look at the next one we've got alarm floods alarm overload you've seen the the uh a screen of alarm a little load capture of a facility alarm flood is when you might lose compressor and the operator gets hit with hundreds alarms for that piece of major equipment still alarms we we talked about that we've got a and b pump the b pump is not running it's an alarm for however long that it's not running that's considered still alarm nuisance alarm you might have an alarm that's uh uh basically uh uh vacillating around the set point and that's what's going on and off and on and on that would be considered nuisance alarm alarms without a response you'll often see that uh alarms where you know the the response is the operator pushing the acknowledge button uh that's not a a lot right when we look at the definition alarm uh you'll see what i mean alarms with the wrong priority well we can go into that and more detail if we cover a more expansive view of this presentation but i'm not going to get into that today redundant alarms where we have a high high and a high high for the same tank right and then bypassed alarms that's where people have alarms and bypass are jumpered out for extended periods of time i've seen incidents uh in facilities where i've done alarm management project where i've uh the alarms were actually bypassed for years i mean we're not talking days or months but we're talking literally years so this is that same facility again and on the left was prior to the alarm management project and on the right is the alarms per day after the alarm management project so this before our management after alarm management so you know the question is to get a different result we need to do something different bottom line so what's a good alarm this is the definition alarm management alarm is an audible and our visible means of indicating to the operator okay an alarm goes to the operator that's fundamental alarm doesn't go to the engineer alarm doesn't go to the maintenance person alarm goes to the operator an equipment malfunction process deviation or an abnormal condition requiring a timely response that is fundamental this is the definition on isa 18.2 and iec 62682 and this is fundamental to proper alarm management so key design principles every alarm should have a defined response what does the operator do when they receive the alarm and if it is just to push the acknowledge button and be aware that that something happened that's not an alarm and you've got to push back on the facility when they uh they try to deem an alarm uh that just push the acknowledge button you have to have adequate time for the operator to carry out whatever that response is and and that's critical if what they need to do takes longer than you can uh you know to get the process in control then an alarm maybe isn't what you want to implement and this this sometimes uh you may want to look at uh something else like a sis system or some other type of means to mitigate that process hazard every alarm presented operator should be useful relevant and unique that's a key key factor there each alarm should alert and inform and guide the operator on what they need to do to respond to that alarm and so if an operator response action cannot be defined it's not an alarm fundamental folks so the history of isa 18.2 and iec 62 682 so we're going to talk from a historical timeline endpoint uh isa 18.1 which is really we'll call it a the alarm uh of the standard four panel arms was published in 1979 as a standard that document actually goes back to a technical report many years before 1979. uh during that time frame there the late 70s to early 90s we had a number of substantial incidents out there and the milford haven incident specifically caused the hsc to write a a report the management alarm systems by bransby and jenkinson and that was published in in 1998 the asm consortium also conducted a lot of research during that time period if anyone's heard of a gentleman by ian named ian nemo ian what created asm and conducted a lot of that research with funding from various organizations but they also provided a lot of the research and funding to um create a mule 191 so immune 191's first edition was published in 1999 in um basically uh 2003 isa team began the effort uh in houston at the isa show with an effort to create the first standard on alarm management and neo191 a mua number one is not a standards development organization in u191 is not a standard so that's key uh delineation that that folks need to understand but in 2003 nick sands and i started our effort to lead the is-18 group uh to create the first standard on alarm management it took us a number of years a mule 191 second edition was published in 2007. uh in 2009 we published the first standard on management alarm uh systems for the process industry and this standard is pretty different from most standards that you see out there in industry most standards are standard zone kind of widgets you know equipment stuff like that this is a work process standard so it's substantially different from most standards that you see within uh standards development organizations so following the publication of isa 18.2 during a number of years we created technical reports so one of the key things is a standard tells you what you shall or should do the technical reports tell you how to do it tr1 covered in alarm philosophy tr2 covered alarm identification rationalization tr3 covered basic alarm design tr4 covered enhancing events or methods tr5 covered alarm monitoring assessment and audit tr5 is in the process of being a update is being published for tr5 tr3 is in the process of working through comments uh for its uh second update tier six is covered alarm systems for batch of discrete manufacturing tier seven call covered alarm system for package systems we have a working group eight right now that has just pulled together a draft on the management alerts and notifications and that's actually going to go out for comment uh the is 18 working group to get feedback from them there was a joint working group on between uh isa 84 and i say 18 working on safety alarms and a term they called sky um that's uh you know that's that's kind of dissolved and we're going to be covering um safety alarms within an update of isa 18 uh coming up later this year uh apis also created the document i'm not a big fan of that document but uh you know you may may have interest in uh api rpe 1167. iec created uh iec 62682 and it was uh published in 2009 i'm the convener of iec 62682 nix sands is the secretary and our technical editor of that standard um the way we manage these standards is uh the new work product or the new uh items or literature tends to come into the 18.2 document first the iec document we have a lot of folks from other countries around the world and and they do a tremendous job of helping us parse the words because english does not necessarily translate to other languages so but the when you look at the alarm management subject matter experts the the bulk of the subject matter experts in alarm management are within the isa 18 body not over in the iec 62 682 body and of course a mua's third edition was published in 2013. mew actually has a rep that participated in iec 62682 work during that 2009 update we published a update uh 18.2 in 2015. uh we are not quite finished publishing the update of 62-682 we finished the cdv comment stage the document just came out of the iec editorial process uh and you know we need to do a few things and and then push it out the door uh to publish that new version of 62 682 and then we will start later this year to update 18.2 so it gives you a history of alarm management so let's talk about the alarm management life cycle this alarm management life cycle and it's the same life cycle in 18.2 and 62 682 and it includes practices that help us solve our common alarm problems you know it includes practices for new facilities or existing facilities uh and then it is also considered rag a gap to recognize good engineer a good and acceptable engineering practice i and it's been recognized by csb doing uh incident investigations within uh certain facilities so let's go through the alarm management life cycle we'll start with the philosophy and then we feed on into identification stage the philosophy stage is where we write a a document a philosophy for either the company or the facility that spells out what you're going to do from an alarm management standpoint identifications where you go identify all the alarms you don't rationalize them you just identify them throw them in the bucket and then you move to the rationalization stage where you go through and you ask certain questions to determine is this alarm right does it you know one of the key questions is there a response right the next stage is detailed design that's where we actually go in and do the detailed design of the alarms that have filtered through the rationalization stage there there are occasions where during the design you have to step back and look at you know identification and rationalization again might be some issues with the detailed design and then we move to implementation implementations where your implement alarm management uh your training your operators those type things and then we uh we put it into operation those in orange as you can see we've got the box on the side where we we cover management of change within these areas uh once we move into operation there's the you can see the arrow going back and forth there's the ability for us to take it an alarm out of operation and put it in maintenance going back and forth between operation and maintenance to ensure that your alarms are all operating uh appropriately and then monitoring assessment the only way that you can ensure that all your alarms are working appropriately is by monitoring and assessing them really on a real-time basis and there are a number of companies and or packages that can either be stuck on an existing scada system or pcs system or some of those manufacturers have actually enhanced their ability to do monitoring and assessment within modules that you can put on uh from those manufacturers on their control systems and then all that audits as you can see is kind of stand alone out to the side uh and it's like that because the audit process is where you go in an audit uh whether or not you're doing what you say you're going to do within the alarm philosophy and so the the audit is sometimes you might need to tweak the alarm philosophy or you might need to tweak through [Music] the training of the operators or others some other parts of the process uh this also builds on the previous work of asm and muo so within the alarm management life cycle we have three loops so if we look at the three loops we've got the monitoring and maintenance loop this is a daily or weekly process of analyzing monitoring the data helps us determine a number of things is there something needs to be repaired do we need to take in implement uh you know enhance in advanced alarm management to mitigate some you know alarm floods or things like that the monitoring and management of change loops less frequent but it's a necessary process where you can roll back into that those stages of identification rationalization detailed design and implementation to tweak your alarm system to eliminate uh different instances it might be alarm floods or it might be nuisance alarms where you need to go back in and work on those and then the the other uh loop is the audit and philosophy loop and we talked about that that's periodic uh typically in the facilities i've been at we would have an operational excellence audit and part of the oe audit was auditing work processes like our alarm management philosophy and whether or not our facilities were adhering to the alarm management philosophy so a summary of kind of what we've been talking about the alarm management life cycle it provides a framework of activities that helps you manage an alarm from cradle to grave the life cycle makes it easy to connect the activities with other frameworks within the facility whether it's capital projects process safety quality management or your sis systems and alarm management systems is a key indicator of oe operational excellence it will help you if you implement alarm management within your facilities help you improve safety reliability and efficiency within your process plans don't wait for incidents uh designed for performance of your alarm system use our alarm management life cycle within 18.2 isa 18.2 and iec 62682 to manage your launch thank you matt thanks so much donald yep i'm here that was great thank you for that great presentation um so to the audience we are now going to move into the q a session donald's going to stick around and answer as many questions as we can before the close of the session and if you haven't submitted your question yet you can still do so now by entering it in the q a box and clicking submit like i said we'll try to answer as many as we can we don't have an answer for you during the live session today we will have an answer for you following the webinar so please send us your questions okay now for our first question from the audience what activities have the biggest impact for the operator donald so one of the key activities uh for an operator is number one making sure that you adhere to the definition alarm right that the operator has a specific response to the alarm not just hit the acknowledge but you'd be surprised how many alarms you can call out of a system or a plant when you do an alarm management project when you adhere to the definition of alarm management that's number one number two is if you're if you do good alarm management uh basis of design right if you go get the technical report where you look at detailed design and you adhere to some of those fundamental um tenants so good alarm design not having high high highs for the for the same thing when we talk about unique alarms so if you've got tank level you don't have multiple alarms for for that tank uh if you've got an a and a b pump if the a is running and the is off the b is not an alarm you have to do a little bit more advanced uh alarming logic where you're only interested in alarm if the a drops out so those are some things that if you implement those type things that that's a real help to the offering excellent thank you for that and to the audience we are in the q a session you can still send us your questions by entering them in the q a box and clicking submit ok now for our next question from the audience oh great here's a good one hey here it is is there any substantial advantage to using iec 62682 over isa 18.2 if doing alarm management in the united states and speak english um no uh they they are basically uh what i would call mirror images of each other and and and to give you a little background on how uh iec 62682 came to be when uh 18.2 was published in 2009 there were a couple national committees the canadian national committee i think it was the the german national committee and there was um one of the other european national committees uh submitted the document i isa 18.2 document to iec and said we need to to convert this into an iec standard um i got a uh literally an email from uh the technical committee chair and asked me to fill out some paperwork i filled out the paperwork next thing i know i was named the container of the body and that's the working group within tc65 that was tasked with developing uh 62682 and we literally started with the 18.2 texts uh and then you know the the individuals from uh you know around the world uh helped us parse wording so the documents um have a little bit of different wording but overall uh you know the the crux of what's in them is is identical so you know i would i would lean towards uh picking your choice now in iec we do not have the tr's the tr's only exist over in isa so if you want uh documents on how to do what the standard says your shower and should do then go get the technical reports within isa and it gives you a lot of examples and underlying uh text on how to implement alarm management hopefully that answers your question oh it was great thank you and thank you to the audience member that sent that question and that was a very good one thank you um so we have a lot of great questions coming in and we just need a moment here to manage them and while we're doing that i'd just like to first of all thank you for the folks that sent in praise we have a bunch of questions in here just saying thank you for the presentation so you know you're very welcome thank you all praise due to donald of course um and also i just want to remind you all that the live presentation today including this q a session will be available as a replay on the global spec site for the next 90 days and that will be available about an hour after today's session ends you can always come back and watch this again okay back to the questions okay here's our next question from the audience what is the standard rule for acceptable alarm per operator per day and hour so that that's a good question and there's if you read the standard we have a whole lot of we call them weasel words right there's uh uh because it it's different per industry right uh when we look at if we go to let me go here if we go to this slide i can tell you that this exceeds what's acceptable for an operator on a given day right and then i can say this on the left exceeds what is acceptable this on the right uh may or may not uh be you know typically in most instances we say it should be acceptable but you know the the term the numbers we have within the standard is is 10 or less within a within a defined period but if you go uh to the technical report let me push this out it's tr5 if you go to tr5 uh and we're updating tr5 right now but tr5 gets into a lot more information than what's in the standard on on what's acceptable and and what you should do and we talk a little bit in there or not a little bit we talk a lot in there about different industries of what's acceptable for one industry may not be acceptable for another industry so so um you know it's it's it's a difficult answer to um or a question to answer uh there are uh groups out there there's uh there's a consortium that is in the process of trying to quantify a little bit more of what's acceptable versus what's not they've done some simulator studies working with one of the universities where they had the individuals running kind of a standardized type script and within uh you know some control systems to try to uh determine a response rate and then they've also took those uh same uh control systems and had uh uh skilled operators and looked at the difference between students and skilled operators so so there's some work that is trying to quantify that more but i mean what's in the standard is our best guidance right now and it it comes from you and asm and uh those type numbers so so i hate to be wishy-washy on that but it depends on your industry i and it depends on a lot of other factors as well excellent thank you for that and thank you to the audience member for sending that one in that was a good one okay we are still in the q a session we have a lot of great questions in here so we're going to try to get through as many as we can but if you haven't submitted your question yet or a comment we'd love to hear from you you could still do so by entering that in the q a box and clicking submit okay back to the questions all right another great one uh do you have any advice or guidelines on setting alarms by priority that's actually a good question too um well one advice on one of the devices you know don't have just one priority i've seen instances where everything was in one bucket um you know typically uh good practices that have uh get divided into uh typically uh three three buckets and and you you wanna have your your your higher critical type alarms to be a a smaller uh segment of the uh the other categories or of alarms so you want to follow those good practices that we have within our tr so if you you get the tr on basic alarm design that actually goes into a lot of good information on how to delineate the your alarms and appropriate uh you know buckets you know parties and how to uh to do different classifications of alarms as well and then that we do tr5 also provides some guidance as well excellent thank you for that and let's see what we have next here okay another great one okay here's our next question from the audience what alarm management audit software would you recommend so audit if if we're talking about the audit stage of the life cycle let me go here push this out so if we're talking about the audit stage um there's there's really not a set a bit of software out there at least in the companies i've been at when we've been done doing uh audits there were it was uh something that was managed by our hsc department to manage the audit process when we were doing our oe audits within the facility now if you're talking about the monitoring and assessment stage there are three vendors out there specifically that i've worked with in my career that provide software but then there are packages that most dcs our control system manufacturers make uh that are uh you know basically plugged in to the control system as well so it really depends on you know your your preference right your different companies i've worked at uh during my career have had uh you know different uh control systems and and different agreements uh with different companies to provide those type functionality so i if if you're wondering specific uh companies um you know shoot me an email you can find me out on linkedin i try not to be commercial driven within uh presentations like this but i can i can certainly respond uh offline to your uh question and and give you uh at least the manufacturers that i've worked with in my career but that that is not a holistic list either excellent thank you for that of course thank you for the offer for the follow-up there that's great so okay let's see all right we have some more time here we have some great questions in the queue so we're going to get back to that in a moment but if you do have any last remaining questions please send them in you can enter them in the q a box and click submit okay now for our next question from the audience okay is alarm management more successful in the more highly hazardous industries uh i might answer one just offline someone asked what is hse department it it's health safety and environmental department and uh then i'll go into the one that you ask um you know they're i i would say uh the companies that have uh taking a um a a cognizant approach to managing their alarms uh from a from a top-down standpoint and have worked to implement that um i would say yes right um i mean there is uh a certain company will will uh leave it nameless but um uh that i'm aware of that had catastrophic incidents that had a loss of life uh were cited as the principal factor that caused the the individuals to die at the facilities basically and the csb and osha came in and cited that operating facility and that company uh implemented an alarm management project that was implemented globally for uh that company and it was a it was driven top down and and they uh they have done a very good job of managing their alarms uh since that point time uh but when you you can look at csb reports within the last couple of years of facilities that may or may not be implementing uh what's in iec 62682 or 18.2 and have had continued to have incidents right so uh you know i would say the process industries as a whole not just hazardous industries um have been starting to implement this over you know the last 10 or so years uh but but it's kind of hit or miss some companies do a really good job uh and other companies not so much and and it tends to be at least what i've seen the companies that uh do a much better job uh have had uh uh you know pretty significant incidents which have drove them uh to implement uh the best practices what you see in 18.2 and 62 682. excellent thank you for that really important stuff we're talking about today that's for sure okay we have um just about 10 minutes left in our session today uh we are going to try to answer some more questions i think we have time for two or three more but like i mentioned if we don't answer your question during this session we will have an answer for you following the webinar so if you do have any remaining thoughts or questions or comments please send them in now and like i said we're going to try to answer a few more i think we could squeeze two or three more before the close of the session okay here's our next question from the audience what is your advice how to start reducing alarms in chemical manufacturing okay so my advice uh and there's there's a paper if you go to my linkedin page there's a paper nixon's not co-wrote uh that we we literally talk about uh you know this what what you need to do uh to implement alarm management but you know one of the one of the key things uh that you know if i'm at a company that has not embraced alarm management right uh one of the things you can do is is start uh look at your standing alarms right look at your chattering logs look at look at what i call uh your your bad actor list and and start working uh use the the technical reports uh and the uh the either i triple isa 18.2 ric 62 682 standards to start mitigating the bad actor and show your management uh how you're eliminating some of the bad actors and use that as the justification the impetus to start doing a wholesale alarm management project and and if you go to the the paper that we wrote uh you you'll see a link in there if you can't find it uh shoot me and uh email on linkedin or to my email and i'll i'll send you the link to it but it's actually a really good paper that tells you how to get started and and what you should do right excellent thank you for that and on to our next question uh where can we find the alarm quantifying document that donald wrote um if you're if you're talking about the paper i just mentioned there's links to it a couple links on my linkedin page if you're talking about something else i mean i published a lot of stuff over the years on alarm management with nick sands and others i i'm not sure specifically what you're talking about but if it's not that document that's on linkedin uh shoot me an an email of what you're asking about i've also got a list of um literally references it's what i've kind of accumulated over the years of papers written by uh you know donald campbell brown ian nemo others you know the kind of godfathers so to speak of alarm management that that have helped me in my career and if you are interested in that i'll be happy to share that with you as well that's great thank you okay it looks like we have time for one or two more but let's see how many we can squeeze in here okay here's our next question from the audience how different are these standards on alarm management compared to regular operational sops oh that's a that's actually a good question um at least and the facilities i've been in um are operating procedures um were really didn't get into how to manage and mitigate the number of alarms that the operator was having to respond to right until we implemented alarm philosophy and alarm management and then those best practices within the standards replicated over into our operational standard operating procedures um so you know i i'm not sure what you have within uh your sops but at least in the facilities i've been in uh until we started embracing alarm management and the you know the tenants within the alarm management standards our operational sops really didn't address uh you know good practices within alarm management in other words number one that uh all alarms have a unique and defined response right that that was a number one uh item that was not within our operational sops great thank you for that and let's see okay here we are next question from the audience this may be the last but like i mentioned if we don't uh get your question during the session we will have an answer for you following the webinar okay here's our question should manufacturers of utility skid systems or aka small equipment systems should they go through the process of implementing alarm management or is this only for plants and facilities so that's actually a really good question i see mr souza's wanted to ask that question and if you go back to this slide tr7 tr7 basically gives you um how to implement alarm management on package systems and so we we at least the the isa 18 committee thought it was important enough uh to address as a stand-alone pr so um a lot of times what you'll find on a package system is they don't address it at all right they they put the package system in and and then you tie it into your control system and then you have to deal with the the mess that was created in the package system so i would say yes it's a good idea to implement alarm management on the package system and then of course implement it a little further as you integrate it back into your control system nice thank you hopefully that's your question charlie very good one at that thanks donald and we are getting to the end here so i think we're going to move to wrap this up um like i mentioned if we didn't get to your questions and we do still have a lot of great ones in there we will reach out after the webinar like to thank donald of course for that great presentation and of course thank you for sticking around and taking time to answer some questions from our audience i'd like of course to thank our audience members for being part of this webinar event you will be receiving an email from us with a link to the on-demand version so as i mentioned you can come back and watch this again or share it with your colleagues and lastly please take a moment to complete a survey which will appear on your screen at the end of this live webinar for on-demand viewers you will find the survey located along the bottom of your attendee console in the survey widget again thank you for taking the time to attend this webinar event take care and we'll talk with you soon you