Prospect and qualify in legal agreements

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at this point so welcome everyone to today's session so um as you might have saw on the synopsis today's session uh involves the solicitors regulation authority and the law training center who represented here today so we're going to explore why change is being made to qualifying as a lawyer what the sqe involves how it affects those already studying and what is meant by qualifying legal work experience and what employers think of the changes so just a quick note we were expecting someone from bumble bond dickinson today unfortunately uh she's had to cancel due to illness so we've just got the solicitors regulation authority and the law training centers today so uh to start off with uh we'll just get some of the attendees to introduce themselves so ben would you like to start us off yep so i'm i'm ben burns i work in the strategy and policy team at the um sra been there for about nine months and prior to that i was called as a barrister in 2015 but then kind of shifted into policy work within the barrister profession then over to the solicitor side fantastic thank you very much and shane hi uh good morning to everybody my name is shane i work for the law training center i assist the students and the tutors on the courses in creating content and looking over quality assurances for the law training center and also lecturer at universities uh in the midlands fantastic uh well thank you so much both of you for joining us today um so the first sort of topic we uh want to explore is uh why was it necessary to change the route to qualifying as a solicitor in your experts i can go on that one from the from the sra's perspective so i think there were there were five kind of big key reasons why why we wanted to introduce the sqe and change the route to qualifying so i think the first is that the traditional route was was inflexible so typically all candidates would have to take the same route qualification which was undergrad degree conversion course if your undergrad wasn't in law um the lpc and then a two-year training contract the second reason which is kind of linked to the first is that the traditional route was was expensive so you had those kind of steps but the lpc in particular could cost in the region of up to 17 18 000 pounds which is obviously very expensive um that kind of leads on to the third reason which the the traditional route was quite risky for candidates so if you look at the average progression figures from 2011 to 2019 you had about 10 000 people each year starting the lpc but then only about five and a half thousand to six thousand people starting a training contract so we call that the kind of training contract bottleneck that drop off from committing to the the lpc but then perhaps um you know not not being sure or confident that you're actually going to go on and qualify as a solicitor through a training contract all of those things kind of lead on to the fourth reason which is that the diversity implications so people from less less well-represented backgrounds are probably more likely to be negatively affected by things like cost inflexibility and the risk that came with the lpc i think the fourth one um which is our concerns as a regulator about inconsistent standards so obviously as the regulator of the solicitor profession we need to be sure that all new solicitors are meeting the same kind of cons and admitted and that's kind of in in the interest of legal services and under the old system and what you had was lots of different lpc providers setting and marking their own assessment and if we couldn't be as confident as we would like to be that that all of the solicitors who were passing and being admitted were meeting the same consistent high standards so they're the kind of five five reasons we thought that the the old system needed changing that's really interesting uh shane do you have anything else to add on to that yeah i mean obviously ben's covered everything there from the sra standard perspective that i mean that's exactly what i am aware of i think the the new approach is um i think one of the key things is the flexibility the sra of offered now with the sqe to this option of um lower costs in in total so as ben was saying an lpc could cost in the region of 17 000 pounds it also opens the door to people that maybe are a little bit more mature who have gone into the law profession and haven't got the confidence maybe to go and do a degree or maybe they've already done a degree so they can't fund it so they'll have maybe equivalent qualifications which they can use as well and most definitely the flexibility for um young learners who maybe have from school college to university done a degree in something that they possibly didn't even want a degree in the first place and didn't feel confident enough to do a law degree so it really opens up the flexibility and provides big differences between the uh the lpc routes and also this the new qualifying routes and i think um and again ben ben covered all the points here uh very succinctly um it's about ensuring that everybody is at the same standard and i think there was some sort of um inconsistency previous so when everyone takes the sqe one or the sqe 2 exams they're all being set and um against the same standards everyone will have the same set of questions if you like and and the sra can really now home in and ensuring that the solicitor's profession in general is full of competent solicitors who can provide a a really good service and maintain a professionalism for solicitors but also confidence in the end user as well so people when they go and see solicitors they want to make sure that everyone can deal with their issues um to the to the correct standards so i think that's i think that's it really i think it's making it i think the biggest change was making it fit for purpose and ensuring that there was flexibility there so that law firms as well you know if you've got someone working in your law office who maybe isn't qualified or doesn't have a law degree um and you can see that they've got real potential the law firm can also work with them to try and assist them through the sqe1 and the sqb2 and giving people a greater opportunity and especially and i think one of the important things that um i personally believe here is that it does help people of different backgrounds um whether that's people that um of within sort of economic backgrounds or social economic backgrounds that didn't have or the [Music] the confidence to think that they could be a solicitor and now actually through this route they can they can go through this route and really progress through the degrees through the different training processes that are available from different providers and also knowing that they the risk factor of you know you haven't invested 17 000 pounds in um an lpc to then fail it so here with the sqe1 for example once you've taken that you know that you can progress into the next level or if you don't feel confident or comfortable or comfortable doing it um then you you haven't really lost as much money so i think there's those i think those factors for me flexibility the new approach the consistency and allowing people an opportunity to um experience um this this sort of profession which has always been real rather shielded or rather got guarded fantastic that's really really interesting thank you both so much um so the sort of next topic i'd like to explore is what exactly is the sqe and what does it involve um would anyone like to start us off um i mean i can kick off i think shane's covered some of the the points there so i think the key thing that i'd want candidates or students to know is that the sqe is not a course um so the sqe1 and sqe2 which shane was talking about they are assessments which we kind of use to kind of gatekeep the solicitor professional make sure that everyone who who gets through or gets admitted is competent uh we as a whole has kind of four four components um the first switching already touched one is that um we only require degree or equivalent experience and the key thing there is or equivalent experience which is the flexibility that shane was talking about so that experience could be an apprenticeship it could be work experience which gives you similar knowledge and skills that you would have acquired through a degree the second component of the of the sqe is is the exam so as shane mentioned you've got the sqe1 and the sqe2 the sqe1 if you think of that as the kind knowledge exam so that is i am testing your ability to identify and apply legal principles in a computer-based assessment and the sqe 2 if you think of that as your skills-based assessment so that is testing your ability to actually deploy the skills that you would need to deploy if you were practicing as as a solicitor and that's the combination of written skills so um drafting legal drafting for example and oral skills so advocacy is one of the oral skills that is assessed through the through the sqe 2. um there's loads of information on our website so the assessment specifications example questions if you just go to sra website and find the sqe area of the website you'll find all of that um the third component of the sqe is qualifying work experience so if you think about the old system you had to do a two-year training contract in one place so typically a two-year training contract in one law firm um we've made it much more flexible um i think there's a question later in the talk about qwe but the key thing to know is that we've made it much more flexible um to really open up the profession so you no longer need to get a two-year position in the same place to qualify as a solicitor you can do a much more kind of tailored bespoke and flexible um form of work experience to qualify and the final component which i don't really need to cover in any detail is the character and suitability checks which is just things like you know if someone has a criminal conviction you know that depending on the nature of the conviction that might make them unsuitable to be a solicitor and you know that's just a basic of any kind of regulated profession i mean i'll just pick up there from ben i mean again it covered everything uh rather well um great because it's the sra so um yeah i think and what a couple of those things that ben picked up on really and there's just a highlight is the flexibility again so the first element and this is a massive change for the sra was you no longer have to have this qualifying law degree you can have any degree in any subject or the equivalent and that is sort of really great for like i say for mature students or mature mature people who maybe have done degrees in the past um on another subject and have moved away from law for whatever reason so that's that's that's that's really big uh i think it's probably i'm sure it's probably quite a scary move for the sra to commit to but a fantastic one nonetheless because of that approach um and then you've got the sqe 1 and the sqe2 so the sqe1 as as ben was saying it's assessing your functioning legal knowledge two different assessments over two days i think it's around about 10 hours of assessment time um and and there are 180 questions per examination five multiple choice answers so it's best possible choice answer on each particular question um and again that's kind of it the important thing to note though is that whilst the sra have created this new flexible approach and they've created um what may be deemed to be an easier route than the traditional route that we're getting rid of it's really important for students and learners to note that the exams when you say multiple choice questions i think people think they're going to be easy they're not they are they are to set they've set a bar and that bar you have to pass so my advice to anyone before um undertaking the examination is to go on the sra website download they have a mock examination it's 90 questions go through that test yourself and have a look to see whether you are confident in passing those questions that all the answers are there as well on the last page and that will then assist you also i think that's great because it gives you a another stepping stone before you take the sqe1 to sharpen up your knowledge and understand where the s sra are coming with this new approach um and the sqe and and just to qualify and work experience to touch on that again it's a great new approach from the sra from my perspective because um you don't have to have that training contract you don't have to be in a position for two years solid and i know we're going to come into this again as ben approached but this is a really big change i think from the sra and a positive one for anybody who wants to get into the profession which allows the sqe 2 then to be [Music] hopefully more of a fun element to the to the examinations when the people are going to be really testing their um knowledge and their practical and written and oral skills as well um i think that's it really what it involves it's not you know four simple it's now four very simple stages degree or equivalent sqe1 sqe2 so your sqe examinations your qualifying work experience and your suitability so i think from that approach as well it just makes it um from a learner's perspective from a student perspective you no longer have to go into this well i've got this degree it's not qualifying now what do i need to do you need to do the gdl now i need to do the lpc now i need to do a training contract now i need to do this so it's a real simplification simplified process with regards to the sqe fantastic thank you so much um so the next question is how much does the sqe cost now i wasn't sure if this is this question with regards to costs of a course or the exams itself but the exams themselves um from this year are going to be a total both exams 3980 pounds so sqe1 will be 1558 pounds which is again if i just touched on what i said earlier with regards to um costs you know if you were to fail that exam or you were to take that and you were to feel that this isn't the right path and as i've been touching as well that's only 1500 pounds that you you've invested rather than the lpc route which used to be 17 you know 12 15 17 thousand and sqe two will be two thousand four hundred and twenty two pounds so you take your first examination sq one one thousand five hundred fifty eight and then you've got that time and flexibility before you take sq e2 which is two 2 422 pounds if the just quickly if the question was on about training courses and preparation courses which obviously the ltc provide they can vary depending upon the type of course you want to take so there's going to be students there's going to be learners that have that have got a law degree so they'll have some of the key skills already and they'll only need top up courses or they'll need fast track courses or there'll be people that haven't maybe studied in law before or maybe work in a law firm and then we offer we offer and other providers offer much bigger courses over a period of 15 to 18 months which allows learners to learn everything they're going to need before taking the sqe examinations yeah that that that's completely right um so i think um so shane obviously covered the cost of the assessments and i think in terms of the courses one of our main objectives with the sqe was really to open up the training market so just to make and to make sure that within that training market there were more affordable options so there are still some expensive options you know you've got llms with integrated sqe training obviously that's that's going to cost um quite a bit but already even though the sqe is in its kind of earlier stages we're already seeing much more cost effective and affordable options to prepare for the sqe and it can be um you know well on our website we have a list of of the the existing um sqe training providers that already exist and there's a real diversity already there so you've got um standalone kind of intensive um sqe prep courses which might you know when you finish your degree you might spend the rest of your summer prepping for the sqe you've got kind of full length you know maybe one year sqe prep courses as i said you've got the llms with integrated sqe prep and um undergraduate law degrees with integrated sqe prep as well and then there's the apprenticeship pathway as well um and i think it's been in the legal press a fair bit over the last couple of months that we're already seeing the kind of upward trend in firms starting to commit to or or offer um apprenticeship pathways that they haven't already offered before which includes um prepping for the sqe yeah i just want to just add on to that if you don't mind um with all these different courses etc that are suddenly popping up whether it be uh sqe prep or whether it be llm with a joint sq prep i just anyone that's watching today or my biggest advice with regards to picking a prep course if needed is to actually speak to um go out and do your own research because what i find is if you if you're already part of a university you've done your llb or your ba in your course they're going to try and promote something like a master's degree and i'm not knocking a master's degree in the slightest but really now think about what you need to qualify as opposed to what what a university or a provider might think that you want to spend in order to qualify so there are look at the options available the different packages that are available um speaking on behalf of the ltc in particular we're offering packages that just offer mock assessments that we've created so that people can go and test their knowledge constantly we're offering a pick and mix so you can pick different modules that you may be not confident in we're offering separate courses which run throughout the whole sqe1 prep but fundamentally it's going make sure you do your own research on whether you need a prep course and how that prep course is going to help you especially with regards to things like llms um you know master's degrees aren't required aren't a requirement of being um a solicitor so really think about you know the sra have made this cost-effective process to ensure that students and learners can become solicitors so don't you know especially with institutions the sqe is new so institutions aren't always geared up to giving that advice with that but go to the sra website go to individual providers and speak to um law firms as well law firms as ben said they're getting on board with the sqe now it's the next is the big thing so make sure you're speaking to lots of different people to get the best advice and that you're making the most of any savings that the sra have like sort of implemented for you here otherwise you're going to be spending money and then realizing actually i didn't need to do that when i i could have just done a 2000 pound prep course for example and moved straight into sqe1 so really think about your routes now and the the financial element of it really you know because it's going to be it's going to be huge i think for for learners and students to be able to progress through this route as of september yeah i think i think shane's completely right just a really small point just to shane mentioned earlier about the kind of mature students or people who might be career changes so there's a very large provider who's a kind of very largely recognized legal training provider that is offering sqe and sqe training course and it takes payment by monthly installment and i think around 80 percent of the people on its course as it stands are paying uh are working kind of normal jobs and paying out of their salary perhaps you know their monthly paycheck so we're already seeing that kind of early suggestions of the kind of positive diversity implications and opening up the the market to people who might have been worried all that confidence if it was for them before fantastic thank you so much for that information um so my next question is can you tell us a bit more about the two years of qualifying work experience and what you can do to to uh count towards that yeah i mean i'll quickly just in terms of the i guess the bare bones of what qwe is um so i mean the purpose of qwe is to expose um expose you to the the competencies the knowledge and skills that you would need as a as a practicing solicitor so if you go back to the old kind of rigid traditional system of qualification you like like shane and i both said you had to do a two-year training contract and that led to the training contract bottleneck where you know lots of different legal service providers firms maybe didn't have the resource or the commitment to to give someone a two-year training contract so there was a bit of a um well the bottleneck was was created so with qwe um you can do um your qualifying work experience in up to four different organizations um and they can be different lengths as long as they add up to two years full time or the equivalent if it was done on a part-time basis so just to give you an illustrative example i just wrote one down this morning so in theory i mean there's many different combinations you could do you could do um one month work experience on a placement during your law degree you could do six months in a charity that provides legal services five months in an overseas law firm because your qwe can be done overseas as well as in england and wales and you could do 12 months in a firm in england and wales um that's just one example of many um and i think that just really helps to drive home that it's it's it opens up this opportunity for people who want to become solicitors to really create a kind of bespoke group that suits them and their kind of um their aspirations as well as their circumstances in order to qualify as a solicitor so it's much more flexible um another key point is that the qwe can be taken during or after taking the sqe assessment so there's no kind of set order that you have to do sqe1 then you have to do your qwe then you have to do sqe2 it is much more flexible than that and it's really up to the candidate and i think our kind of um i guess final final check isn't the right term to use but we use the sqe assessments to make sure that people who are being admitted as solicitors are competent but what you do leading up to that point is it's so much more flexible than it used to be um which will really help to open up the profession pwe does need to be signed off but the key thing to remember is your competence is not being signed off because your competence is assessed through the sqe assessment so the only thing that is signed off in terms of qwe is the duration of the qwe and that you were exposed to some of the competencies or perhaps even all of the competences that you need to practice as as a solicitor um there's loads of information for employers and for candidates on our website um so if you just type in sra qwe candidates i think that the first page that should come up will be the relevant bit of our website yeah i think again excuse me i think again this is a real advancement for the sra i'm in the approach to what qualifying work experience is because the a.m the training contract would be rigid it would be set in stone and you'd be there for two years if you didn't like it then you sort of had to put up with it but here the fact that you can it's two years equivalent up to four work placements i believe um as ben said the flexor the flexibility of being able to work for different companies up to four different companies and the fact that this is now not only is it paid work but it's unpaid work which is a great benefit so there are you know student universities sometimes have their own law clinics i know the ltc is about to set up our own law clinic so that we can assist learners in qualifying work experience because all of our lecturers are already qualified um professionals we um they signed off by um i believe a solicitor of england or um i'm going to test myself here now or the competency there's a competency person or something in the firm i can't remember what they're called but they are they're right yeah so the the way it's signed off is different as well um but it is and and i think the sra do say on their um website very clearly that um the it's not to test your competency the sqr sorry the sra via the sqe is now to test your competency and again it goes back to i think that one of ben's first points that is to make sure that there's the same consistent standards so you know we've got it in the past i'm not saying that this has happened but if you've got a solicitor who may be being a bit slack and they've signed it off and you haven't actually done it and they're just rushing through to get your training contract signed through then obviously you don't have that competency so by by the sra taking control of that it's a great thing and the fact that you can go and do your four placements across a variation of international law uk law and the fact that you can be in um like i say a law clinic um a business that operates in the legal services a charitable organization um my mind's gone blank who's the the like the um oh i can't think people offer advice like to people um like maybe benefit advice or homeless homelessness or things like that as well so uh really again the key word i think throughout the whole of the sq is the flexibility here citizens advice bureau is who i was thinking of thank you louise i think she's put that in there as well so yeah so um it's you know a great again a great approach from the sra i mean i think um yeah and i really like the idea as well that these learners these students can use past work as well so you don't have to you know if you're working in a law firm now you're going to be meeting some of these competencies uh to be signed off not that you're competent but some of the competencies um and it's great that it's the flexible approach so again one of these things is once you've got your degree or your equivalent degree you going working in a law firm or offering your services for on on a voluntary basis to get this work experience and also alongside that still doing any prep courses or getting prepared for the sqe is a real bonus for i think anyone as of september that will be taking this particular route fantastic so i think we're just uh drawing close to the end of the session now so um we're just going to answer a few questions from the audience i do apologize we won't be able to answer all of them because there have been absolutely loads if we don't answer your questions just feel free to email the email address that's under under myself uh we should be able to pass on those questions and hopefully get a response uh so the first question is are these knowledge courses covered by student finance england and if not how can students fund it the examinations themselves are not but there are bursaries available so some law firms are already putting out their bursaries to cover some of the costs and but it is going to be a case i suppose one of the benefits is that you can be doing um work this is not remember these are examinations only if you take on a prep course that's in your own uh sort of initiative to do so and i would recommend it based upon having seen some of the the work that the sraf put into these exams but you can be working part-time or even full-time still doing some of your studies in your own time to prepare for the exam and then taking the exam yourself but unfortunately it is unless you can get a bursary or unless that you're working in a firm that may be wanting to fund the option for you it is going to be self-funded um but the low costs of the exams and again the flexibility here is that you would be able to save up for these exams you know within within a short period of time subject to you what work you're you're currently undertaking yeah but shane's completely right and just the old system as well so the lpc obviously you know some people would have their lpc part funded or fully funded by by a phone that they'd already secured an offer from but the rest of candidates on the lpc would be would be funding it themselves so with that kind of much higher on average cost so i think um it's the flexibility and the kind of working while each you know earning while you learn and things like that that is really going to benefit candidates financially but um definitely look into you know what bursaries are out there and things like if you do decide and shane was right you know really think carefully but if you do decide that something like a master's with built-in and sqe prep is right for you obviously there are different funding options there and if you decide to do an llb with integrated sqe prep obviously that would be um i'm assuming um you know subject the same funding eligibility as any llb so yeah but that they won't cover the exam costs so you will start to pay the exam cost which is the important thing so that's when i was saying earlier as well look invest your time in finding out what these courses offers because at the end of it you're still going to have to pay your own exam fees on this yeah fantastic so we've got another question about um people in other countries who might already be qualified in those countries how would they go about converting their qualification to a uk one so if if they're already you know a qualified lawyer in an overseas jurisdiction and they're practicing or they're fully qualified to practice um we um we process applications for exemption so you can either apply for exemption from sqe1 and sqe2 or you can apply for exemption from one of the sq1 assessments because there are two or you can apply just for exemption from sqe um the the application so we're currently dealing with applications from individuals so individual overseas qualified lawyers as well as applications that come actually from the jurisdiction itself so from the overseas jurisdiction um the best thing for you to do is to look on our website at the the um overseas exemption section with the sqe because it's quite a technical area but the key thing is that if you if you have qualified overseas um you know maybe you've already done some practice as a lawyer that there is an option there to apply for an exemption full or partial um but it would be done on a kind of case by case and jurisdiction by jurisdiction basis i'll leave that question with the way ben's answered it because it is a technical area and the sra have worked their socks off for months and years at building their web page so please do go and have a look at it all there's loads of information on there with regards to all of these topic areas and it's all written and presented in a rather clean and crisp way so it's not complex to use so please do as ben says go and have a look at that with regards to um dual qualification fantastic um i'm seeing a lot of questions about whether uh paralegal work counts towards qualifying work experience um does it count yeah it definitely it definitely can count um i mean it's if you're providing um if you're working in an organization charity whatever it is that is providing legal services and the work that you're doing as long as the work that you're doing um kind of is preparing you for the and exposing you to the competencies that you would need as a practicing solicitor so look at our statement of solicitor competence for those competencies obviously the the skills that you need on the sqe 2 and sv1 are designed to kind of um tailored to to getting people ready to meet meet that statement of competence as long as as long as your paralegal work is is meeting those requirements then and then yeah it it would be qwe yeah i think the with paralegals or if you're already working in a firm um and you're maybe not um getting to have experience in those areas as well those competencies definitely speak to your the the people that run the practice or run the firm or other solicitors to see if you can shadow them and see if maybe they can give you some um extra work experience or extra advice with regards to qwe and i've noticed just a very quick question soon as we're talking about this that someone's completed a placement from citizens advice so again you'd have to go onto the sra website just to have a look at what um quantifies your experience and make sure that someone from citizens advice during that one year can sign off the um information the detail of what you've done which is that you've done some legal work that you were competent at it and any progressions that you took during that period of time as well fantastic so i think we've got time for just one more question i've seen a few people asking now um saying that they are a mature student who already have have undertaken the lpc and they just want to know if it's worth uh taking the sqe now so they can qualify as a solicitor as someone who's around the age of about 50 or so i've got to wrap my brains about this question um if you've already if you've already done the lpc so you that mean that would mean you haven't undertaken a training contract or you may have already no you wouldn't have undertaken but look my advice is to have a look at the simple the simple answer to this i think would be and kind of maybe half of a cop out is to have a look at what the sra are offering have a look at what your next steps would have been and then consider whether or not the sqe is the right route for you you'll find i think a lot of law firms and i know that um when the sra did their um i want to call them their mock they have their trial examinations about a couple of years ago law firms that saw really high grades coming back from the sqe one when it was tested were automatically offering people jobs from from just from their results because it's if you download the the mock examination of the sra website and have a look at that you'll be able to see whether how competent you are at the moment you have to remember that um lp not lpc's degrees in particular teach you theory the sqe wants to see your theory and how it operates in practice so it depends on what's included within your lpc it depends on what your progression route would be but the likelihood is if you have done your lpc and you've got those competencies already that taking the sqe might be a quicker route because i think it's the 5th of november the first examination is for sqe1 and sqe2 off top of my head i think is it march or april next year april next year april next year so you have got an app you have got a a window there where you could potentially still qualify quicker subject to qualify and work experience um so it but it's in the reality is this is an individual choice um to try and give advice without speaking to a candidate i think would be difficult and that's one of the things we do at the law training center we make sure that we speak into every individual student or potential learner so they can see alternative groups as well so we don't only just do the sqe we do other things but we want to make sure that every learner has the right path for them so if you've done your um lpc most definitely go and have a look at what um is is available have a look at that mock examination and it probably would be now the quickest route um for you to be able to qualify i think that you know it really is doing some self um self research yeah i think i think that that's the key i think i think shane's right i mean i can see a question which might be the question that that you're asking from someone called called blossom about that you've been doing paralegal work for the past five years so certainly in terms of the qwe component you know that would obviously um provided that it meets the requirements um it would obviously really help but it would be a kind of a personal decision i think as to whether you wanted to kind of um it's not right to phrase it as a step back whether you would want to go through the sqe having already done the lpc i think it's a personal decision but there are lots of people who are just to very quickly touch on who are caught in what we're calling kind of transitional arrangements so if you're kind of for example you've just started a law degree or you're starting one in september so if you go to the sqe section of our website and just find the tab which is called transitional arrangements that will set out kind of um if you're essentially caught between the two systems what your options are you know whether you stick in the current system or whether you kind of transition over to the the sqe and which is again quite a technical area but the guidance is hopefully really clear fantastic i think we're going to have to end it there for today but thank you shane and ben for your valuable input apologies to anyone who didn't get the question answered but like i said if you just email us at event just.ac.uk we can pass those questions on and hopefully get response for you but thank you for everyone for attending i hope this was uh valuable for you and once again thank you shane and ben for for your input no worries at all thank you very much have a good day of having us thank you bye-bye everyone