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this episode of the show is brought to you from the salesman.org hubspot studio [Music] coming up on today's episode of the sales man podcast there's a ton of things we're going to talk about today that have changed the one thing that hasn't changed is the hardest part is getting to the right people if you're engaging professionally right people love it they will respond to you in fact um in the classes that i teach right um cohort based um training for hubspot right um the average connection is about 12 the empowered buyer is um they um don't talk to a sales person until they're damn good and ready right first of all uh uh globally about 93 to 96 of people will google or social media something before they um talk to a sales hello sales nation my name is will byron i'm the host of the salesman podcast the world's most downloaded b2b sales show on today's episode we have an absolute legend absolute legend dan tyer he was the original member of hubspot's sales team he is now a speaker and author and executive over at hubspot on today's episode dan step by step tells you how to prospect for new buyers in 2021 and moving forward to 2022 and beyond everything that we talked about this episode is available in the show notes over at salesman.org forward slash damn and with that said let's jump right into it dan welcome to the salesman podcast boom i've been waiting for this for like three weeks well i'm super excited as you know i did my research right i want to make sure i'm bringing the big energy for all of your listeners and uh super excited to be here i'm glad to have you on mates okay so you kind of posed me in our pre-interview interview uh back and forth the topic of this show i purposefully i've not dove into it more of it with you i purposely left it open-ended so down with that get us started mate in your opinion of the facts or the data if anything goes alongside this perfect what is the biggest hurdle that me as a salesperson and the thousands of thousands of people are gonna watch and view this over the next few weeks those salespeople as well what's the biggest hurdle that we have to booking meetings getting conversations started right now yeah yeah of course uh and guess what that hasn't changed in the last 50 years there's a ton of things we're going to talk about today that have changed the one thing that hasn't changed is the hardest part is getting to the right people to even have that conversation and in 2021 hold up like uh no one picks up their phone or at least that's what people say by the way that's not true so uh in the first two and a half minutes i've contradicted myself lots of people pick up the phone you just have to do it right uh number two uh voicemail less uh it's kind of a different um uh reason why people uh and how people listen to voice mail still important right um but uh it's a little bit different purpose right and um that hurdle of getting to the right person and talking to them about how it works visibility connection and attention right is uh the biggest challenge that virtually everybody has it takes the longest time uh it's a very refined skill right when uh i started my sales career like uh sales people did prospecting today sdr teams right um specific and focus make sure that uh everybody is um like doing a a special part of um accelerating and uh identifying the the best output damn let me just take this totally sideways for a second then we'll come back on track is this what you said there can we turn this on its head is this a golden age for salespeople in the fact that we have linkedin the buyers are visible and then we've got email we've got all these ways to communicate with them that we didn't have well i didn't have because i wasn't selling 20 30 years ago yeah of course it's uh double that short right if in fact you're doing it the right way if you're engaging professionally right people love it they will respond to you in fact um in the classes that i teach right um cohort based um training for hubspot right um the average connection is about 12 right after they graduate from the class it goes between 25 and 40 percent right and if you're not getting 25 to 40 connections i'm going to teach you how right just listen for the next 17 minutes and it may be a little loud and a lot of high energy but i'm going to teach you exactly how to do it because um if you do it right people love it they're like oh my goodness right yeah i definitely want to talk with you but it's different and you're not calling everybody and you're not cold calling right people go oh i'm not fun guy i go you don't cold call they go yes i always ask michael presentations raise your hand if you co-call there's always three guys they're always in the last row always dudes never women right and they're like i co-call i go no you know they're like yes we call people that we've never met i'm like that's not coco cold calling is using the same script calling indiscriminately 110 times a day right and you know the conversion percentage for actual cold calling um one two three percent yeah it's 1.2 percent which means you're wasting 99 of your time effort money it's ridiculous right anybody does it um is there anything else in business if you wasted 98 of your time effort and money you'd still do it of course not right that's the antithesis of efficiency right but people still do it right i'm like what you got to do is warm call they're like oh what's that i got a famous blog article about uh 15 things that you can do to a warm call right and that's what most people do they just categorize it a little bit different outbound right can be as effective as inbound now you and i were just chatting about the inbound revolution and how it was totally amazing right and uh i wrote a book called the inbound organization which you have in front of which is super cool but um my first i've been in uh sales positions and sales leadership was 42 years first 30 uh something years right it was push push push right now it's help help help in 2007 everything changed with the inbound revolution because you had the empowered buyer right you ever heard of the empowered buyer uh yeah i i hope i am on yeah yeah you are you just told me a story the empowered buyer is um they um don't talk to a sales person until they're damn good and ready right first of all uh uh globally about 93 to 96 percent of people will google or social media something before they um talk to a sales person right and i'm thinking what are the other six percent doing they must be walking through an airport or something like that of course that's what you do oh my goodness right you want to find a little bit about a background you want to see reviews you want to understand a little bit about uh the texture of what you're purchasing right that's why social media and inbound is so important right and then you only want to engage with sales per people when you're darn good and ready and what percentage of the sales process do you think right people want to go through before they actually talk to a salesperson the numbers are all over the place but between 70 80 yeah that's right it's all goes all the way up to 99 if you're buying a car right when you're buying a mini you walk into that place and you're like okay i did my research this is what i want to pay and if they don't give it to you walk out right that's 99 that drastically changes the process right and so now with the empowered buyer the inbound revolution has gone on for uh 14 years it started inbound marketing now it's inbound sales now it's growth right oh my goodness subspot was the spiritual leader invented the term but now it's in the public domain and just like you were saying it becomes very very valuable so sales people have to morph right one of my main foundations is you can't do it the old way right you have to do it the new way that means you have to warm call in a way where you're helping not selling and uh sales plus helping is shelving right i just thought that up this morning shelving say it there well no because that is a terrible terrible i don't want that to become a thing definitely go on i was shelting people right that makes slightly more sense okay i know i know a little bit more but um like i'm famous for taking words and making them a more dopey word together uh but shopping or helping people is the foundation for engagement all right so when you're trying to get noticed by somebody uh the first thing you got to do is you've got to identify your ideal customer profile right and in the old days you called everybody when i started my sales career i pick up the phone i'd call you i called somebody in spain i'd call somebody in new york city and say the exact same thing okay that doesn't fly right you got to get the data you got to get the facts you've got to understand where you do your best work right and you've got to limit where and who you call to where you can have the most value where you get all excited and energized and you're being like no no we work with uh manufacturing companies in uh leads right who have at least three million dollars worth of revenue that uh are trying to get more uh productivity out of their website and want to lean into e-commerce does that sound like you and when you focus on that particular niche right you're going to do so much better why are you going to do so much better if you focus well you're going to do so much better when you focus because well it's targeted you're having a conversation as opposed to your marketing you're not just spamming people you're having a you're starting an insightful conversation right 100 number one you know that industry pretty good because you talk about it every day you know the vocabulary you know the seasonality you know what's going on they know we're just talking about my co-author todd hockenberry when he walks into a manufacturing distribution he starts talking about patents and delivery time and thing like in the first three sentences you're like okay this guy knows manufacturing in industrial right and if it doesn't matter if you're professional services recruiting whatever just pick a swim lane and stay in it right in the old days right it was uh call everybody today the riches are in the niches oh wait a second we're in the uk if you want to go to the beaches you got to work the niches right and you got to make sure right that you are good at that the next thing you got it done done slow down slow down let me let me just reign you in for just a split second it because it's one thing to say we need to find an idea or buy a persona we need to target them with our messaging our communications would we for an individual sales person quote a carrying individual who's listening to this right now is this something that they should be uncovering themselves as in they warm call cold call whatever data gather across the marketplace find who responds narrow down the messaging or is this something that marketing should be giving them sales operations should be giving them where do they get this information from of who they should be targeting it's awesome it's the latter uh is available but if not then you sales people should figure it out they're on and guess what they already know right they know when they call recruiting firms or podcast companies or marketing firms or that they close at a higher clip right one of the key points of selling in 2021 that makes it better is you have access to all the data right if you have a modern crm that shows you your close percentage it by um by vertical market you know the areas where you're closing deals at a 10 as opposed to 90 and if you're smart where do you spend the time right you spend time with uh higher output where you're getting a greater return on investment and in the old days we didn't have access to that information right you could run reports like that in siebel or like um dynamics it was impossible now right with modern crm you can get that information right there so right i'm always looking at where i can provide the most value where i get the best traction and then i get to really understand that industry right i focus on i understand and then i'm like no no i work with professional services companies that practice inbound that are based in leeds right that have um best-selling podcasts that want to get a little um great um speaker guest does that sound like you now when i start the conversation like that what do you think you think it's me it is this person speaking directly to me looking around going that's weird how does that guy know guess what i know you're a chemistry major i know you went to bangalore university i know you went to leeds i know you it took me three minutes to find that out right and yes you're a little bit of a mini celebrity but anybody you want right you can uh you ever want to make somebody happy you um say oh uh well i just tweeted out that last um uh twitter uh promo about uh your upcoming and you'd be like what you're like yeah my forty thousand twenty five i don't care if you have three twitter followers but once i retweet you i'm in a different category now all of a sudden you really okay so when you're doing your outreach you get your ideal customer profile the next thing you do is you practice your greeting right and when i call you i say ring ring say hello hello will this is dan from hubspot hi don from hope spoke thanks for picking up the phone and when i say that what do you feel i feel confused because that's not what i'm expecting right you're like what who what so the first time you hear the firs what i tell everybody when you're going in the engagement you've got to make sure you have good voice tone when you call when i call right you know it's me now you don't have to be damn tired with the big energy because if i thought you were i actually i should have used the small energy because you're a super smart guy i'd be like will this is dan from hubspot there we are you can't like that you i'd i'd be thinking that you're thinking i'm thick if you're talking that slow no not necessarily but i wanna and as soon as you jump in with your big energy then i'm gonna match it right behavior modification right there is a plug-in for linkedin called crystal nodes that will give me the personality characteristics of the person i'm talking to right but i can see it in the picture and i do with a little bit of research i can understand whether i go big energy medium energy low energy anyway i want to sound good i want to sound sharp a lot of people who are doing outbound calling they don't sound interested they sound bored they don't sound like they want to talk with me i want to sound like i i sound like i want to talk how do you one second though how do you turn that on again it's one thing to say all uh make the the use of describing words how do you turn on clearly this is a skill that you have it's something that i don't necessarily have i have to listen to example i listen to music before a podcast episode and get myself riled up for it how do you go about just reaching out number one two cups of guatemalan coffee that'll get anybody wrong number two stand up when you sit down right all the stress goes to your shoulder you're thinking oh this is a business company i'm moving around here well right i'm lifting weights i'm like boxing i'm like walking around and the brain is a very interesting thing and when i say well this is dan from upspot you don't think like dan from hubspot you're going through a little bit it plays to what we call your lizard brain with the seth godin do you know seth god okay the bald-headed uh uh marketing guru not seth rogen the guy the canadian community purple cows not smoke he's like okay when you are connecting with somebody the first time on the phone they don't really think through with their executive functioning they go right to your caveman brain and i'm like yes that's true so when i say well this is dan from spot you may take between three and sometimes 25 uh seconds thinking okay dan from upside do i know this guy is he my cousin did i like uh root for um did i go to college with him what did i do how did like and you're going through and then you're going to do exactly what you're going to say you may be confused you're going to be like yes and then that's where the line thanks for picking up the phone comes in we used to say how are you doing today but if i ask you how you're doing how do you feel i feel like there's a sales person on the other end of the phone exactly you put me in a category i'm never going to get out of that so what we found uh about four years ago is if i say well thanks for picking up the phone right you're like okay that's flat out weird i've already sent you two curveballs in the first 12 seconds and i'm totally in control and you're like uh okay uh and then you'll say okay uh why are you calling me or how can i help you and i'll be like ugh it doesn't sound like you're expecting my call now in the uk there's not a lot of others right and i have to kind of push people to uh be they're like that's no one in the uk would say that i like i have lots of people who call them the uk that say that and what you'll hear is people like chuckle or they'll say what did you just say and i'm like ugh you got to lean into the gh just do it do your own do it look okay it's a little too harsh but this first time you did that's awesome right it's ugg kind of a funny ugh it doesn't sound like you're expecting that call and they're like i'm i wasn't right now you're gonna address resistance now you're gonna say well i saw that um you run a a great sales podcast i listened to that um episode uh number 67 where you had uh sales leaders uh talking about the most difficult part of the sales process uh i saw that you have the number one rated pocket and uh i work with um uh inbound uh companies right that want to double their podcast lists in the next uh 12 months does that sound like you and what would you say if i said that i'd say yes exactly and then i'm going to stroke my chin stroke your chin get that beard going stroke your chin this might sound weird in the microphone if i'm rubbing this down yeah i don't know if i get weird feelings here in my rustle of the beard this is the chin stroke question if i don't have you stroke your chin you'll forget it but you have three connect call positioning so here's the thing you have your ideal customer profile then you research the company just like we've demonstrated you perfect your opening will this is dan from upspot right if you don't say that a thousand times i want the dog to walk out of the room i want your significant other to say really okay we know it's dan from mob spot right but i want it to sound like i really want to talk with you and then you want to be human right if somebody sounds like they're having a tough day i'm like okay well sounds like you're having a tough day and you're like why are you calling me i'm like well do you want me to sing you a song do you want me to tell you a joke right they're like no i'm like oh doesn't sound like you're expecting my call and they're like i'm not and you're like okay i work with uh uh business leaders who are podcasts who are trying to extend their program um does that sound like you and then you're gonna say yes if you say no i didn't i didn't do enough research right because it's it's all online i can i know everything about you and we've never met before uh 12 minutes before right and now um if then i'm okay i also work with um business leaders who have been practicing inbound who uh like to um read uh business books and who believe uh inbound is a leadership principle does that sound like you and you're like yeah that sounds like me stroke chin tell me more about that now you're starting to talk right now i'm getting a feel for who you are i'm listening right i'm reviewing then uh eight to ten minutes and after you're telling me all this kind of stuff sometimes you'll say what do you want to know i'll say everything give me the eight-minute version i want to understand now i won right first of all i got you to smile when i said uh second of all now you're talking right which is the hardest part third of all halfway through the conversation right i'm gonna say uh hold on one second will what i hear you say is and when i say well when i hear you say what am i doing i hear you say you're acknowledging that you're listening it's called active listening and it's the single key thing that uh prospects are looking for in the sales it's a good job answered that well then otherwise it would look like i've just been zoning out for the past 15 years that's all right i don't know it's good that you're paying attention but i want to make sure these act active listening is so important it's why introverts and uh women tend to be a little bit better at um the prospecting function because they actually listen guys just you have uh not you personally is the data on that i'd love to see if that's been studied uh i have to dig that's my own perf personal experience but everybody says you're a born salesperson i'm like no that's not true right it used to be true when sales was the land of misfit toys right if you couldn't code you couldn't write they're like okay maybe you can take somebody to watch and that was what sales was in the 1980s now right yes um hyper thoughtful super intelligence psychology focus and engaging with people that's why so much fun it's different all the time right and you have to figure out the way in which you present the information right so that the empowered buyer understands that number one you know his problem or her problem number two you're asking the right questions so that they think about the problem in a way that they might not have thought lots of times people cycle in and they're like this is what i need and you're like okay well have you thought of this this and this and they're like uh actually no and then you're like okay so lots of people ask for this but what they're really looking for is this right that's the change right you're not telling them how much it costs what color comes in can you carry it up a flight of stairs what you're doing is explaining to them how they can redefine the problem all right so after eight minutes of them talking you're like okay that's kind of interesting it sounds like there's some business pain around this particular issue right you've already proven number one that you're willing to talk with them number two you've proven that you can have a short conversation where you can get them talking number three you've been very overt in saying uh what what i hear you say so you're honoring them now that lasts from 12 to 15 minutes which is hard for many salespeople because you'll go through like uh have three of these conversations a day you won't have talked to anybody since early this morning and then this person wants to talk to you but at 15 minutes the best practices is to stop and say all right well sounds like there's something to talk about what i'd like this was a little bit of an interruption call so what i'd like to do is i'd like to re-engage what are you doing tomorrow and you're like um i got some openings i'm like okay are you a coffee person or a tea person what's the answer to that are you coffee or tea uh both if that doesn't ruin it have a coffee am t p.m okay so i want to strategically uh schedule time after your second cup of coffee so you're ready to go you're like i have all the answers my question and then i want to schedule either 25 minutes or 50 minutes to ask you some questions around this issue a connect call right is uh what we call it in the flywheel model lasts for 15 minutes it engages it uses those connect call positioning statements it's all about you right it's they go who are you again tire from hubspot i'm like dan from hubspot don't worry about that all i want to make sure is that you know that i know about you that uh i have helped you identify that this may be something that is worth spending a little bit of time on they may say no not right now uh they may be in consider they may be in just visibility and i'm like okay um i i'd like to just drill down into a little bit more just to make sure that um i understand if this is a good fit or not right we'll spend 25 minutes i'll ask you a series of questions you can ask me some questions and we'll determine if there's a reason for a move for that's called the discovery call that's the goal of the um the connect call right and the discovery call oh my goodness in 2021 it's uh it's the new close call right you ask the right questions on the discovery call you will get that deal they should look across the uh zoom at you or the skype at you and they should say well those are the right questions to ask who are you once again oh my goodness and then you can proceed from it now i got one other point though because in 2021 when people say people don't pick up the phone they're kind of right and how many times do you have to uh call somebody to be professionally persistent 10 20. okay uh the the best practices is you're going to call somebody four times over 12 days the first time i call you uh there's only a uh four to seven percent chance that you're going to pick up sometimes you see my 602 number and you're like oh 602. i wonder who that is usually it'll go right to voicemail right even in the uk i leave a voicemail but my voicemail is different because you're going to see a transcribed um content on it on your iphone right uh but i still leave a voicemail and then i send an email and in the email it's your name first an ampersand uh my name in my company uh trying to connect and it's will as per my voicemail right uh i and then just two lines right i'm reaching out because i saw that you uh want to get more listeners your podcast i'm reaching out because i saw that you had that great post on linkedin i'm reaching out because i'm connecting with business owners in leads who are trying to get more um growth right and um i've included my calendar uh link in my email just set up 15 minutes and i'm going to show you how i can help see how i can help right i send it it's like it used to be you had two paragraphs today if you have more than two sentences you're not doing it right then uh you have the first time and uh the statistics say you're going to pretty much ignore that which the next thing you got to do is you wait two days and i call again right now you see the 602 number which not a lot of 602 people are calling you but you're saying oh wait a second wait that seems a little familiar i leave a second voicemail it has it's a little bit different but it's all about you it's not this is dan calling to talk about technology or do you need a crm it's like oh my goodness well thanks so much for uh mentioning him on that um podcast i saw that you're leaning into a warm calling and i wanted to see how i can help i send the second email the second email says will and uh dan uh it says second ping do you know what a ping is in this context just second touch yeah second touch second a ping comes from sonar in a submarine it's like ping ping uh like some people who are over 50 don't really understand what it is but most people like your age demographic they're like yeah he's trying to reach out again and then i say uh well as per my second call right uh i want to spend 15 minutes with you see i can get in touch and in that one i include a video right in the biggest um the biggest transformation in prospecting since the beginning of prospecting is including video in your prospecting email and you can use hubspot uh video you can use video you can use loom you can use um wistia soapbox they're all free you just load it in your um in your uh browser right and now you see me you see my glasses you see my swanky uh like urban background right and i'm gonna put your website on my uh on my background i'm gonna be a little whole on the side right and i we're gonna say well i i came to your website i was doing some research on business owners and leads and i saw that it looks like you're trying to generate more business i had some tips about ways that could help you get your website work a little harder without you having to right just put 15 minutes on my calendar and we'll engage then we'll see how i can know now right you go to that video you watch the video right usually about 75 of the time right uh some people say no one's clicking on my video right it's usually because you don't have the prospects website there right that plays to the lizard brain right then you're focused on um like uh it's only a minute right no one wants to hear about anything for more than a minute right you can't drone on for sale it's like get to the point right it's 20 21. and the ask is just get on my calendar right when the prospect books right amazing things happen do you like when prospects books on your website uh dan we are just completely inbound we don't have any booking or anything i do okay so literally almost all of our deals made just over email most ideas amazing it's amazing because now you know i'm coming now you can research me you're like tyre you're in arizona isn't it like six o'clock in the morning i'll say yes it is very good now we're establishing that commonality now we're leapfrogging what you said is the most confusing and hardest part of the connection right because first of all you're in control second of all you set the appointment third of all you're going to show up more often fourth of all i've given you the ability to have that conversation all right so if you don't answer my second one with the video dan one second just for the audience sorry to interrupt you there i will document all of this out i'll put it into a big flow diagram and we'll host it over at salesman.org forward slash dan so because there'll be people now who are on a treadmill trying to listen to this going freak like just they've got an arm full of pen as they're trying to scribble they're up to the chest at this point i've got a hairy chest down i can't write on this mate so i'll document everything i'll document everything salesman.org forward slash done gourmet carry on salesman.org forward slash damn okay we knew this was going to be good because you and i have complimentary you're the big brain and i'm the energy right and this is the hardest part right the reason i got lots of stuff to talk about the classic sales process but i want to help right and i've trained this for many years at hubspot i train our partner program i have a lady by the name of amber she was so scared right and in 2021 the prospecting process everybody's sitting at home you're at your kitchen right there's a lot of negativity going on right sometimes you talk to mr grumpy right you don't talk to mr grumpy because you're all inbound right but sometimes you're gonna hit somebody who's gonna be like why are you calling me and right that's when you use your skills right address uh resistance right got lots of ways to um to address that this lady amber she got so amped up when she completed she'd only call people on a treadmill right and so she bet well this is amber and well i'm out of trouble stop it on the verge of sexual as you're doing that damn i i i you can't guys can't do women and then people saying why you want a treadmill she goes i get a little nervous when i call people so uh it alleviates my nervousness when i and people would just start laughing and be like all right what do you want and she'd be like i'm calling pharmaceutical companies in london right who um have um a stage two or stage three product that they're trying to manage through their website and need a little help does that sound like you and they're like oh my goodness who are you uh amber on the treadmill and uh it's just a very nice and human way of engaging all right so if they don't answer your first two which statistically about 25 of the people if you include a video in the second one are then going to respond you wait three days because it usually goes over a weekend and then you call a third time right and uh that third time you're gonna reference something that you saw on twitter something uh you listen to the podcast it takes ten seconds people right if you call me and said dan i see you at hubspot that's not good enough you say dan how did you get on the salesman.org podcast i'm your friend forever i can't control it right now i'm like okay you did your research you earned your 10 minutes how can i be of service right i leave the third i say third ping in the subject it's another infrared you know i've done my research you know i want to talk to you i've been professionally persistent right and then i wait two more days this is the money call because you'll pick up uh usually on the fourth call because you've seen 602 432 7451 four times right you've seen the email three times right you've got four voicemails so my voicemail there is like well this is my fourth voicemail i'm pretty sure that you understand how to get a hold of me you got four uh emails from me as well two videos right sounds like you're busy right um should i stay or should i go if you want to know a little bit more about how i can help business owners and leads grow their business over the next 18 months just get on my calendar if it's not the good timing just save this email right just let me know if you ever decide to grow better just um come back get on my calendar and i'm happy to help my name is dan from bubspot thank you very much right and for me that connects at uh between i don't know 78 and 85 which people said that's not fair you're like a mini celebrity and you're executive home spot i'm like okay granted but if you follow those rules you should connect between 25 and 40 people who have never called before if they use those um techniques especially leading into video you'll greatly accelerate the hardest part of the sales process and um it's like anything else right um it's hard when you start because it's emotional right um and uh it leverages people say they don't want to talk with me which is not true right because do you want somebody to call you and help you well i do and just to double down on this point until you've spoken with the individual they've no idea who you are they're not making judgments about you anyway they just don't give a they don't they're just oblivious you're you're making up these emotions on your side 100 but what i just taught you is to make it all about you and i want it to be all about you because i have to be it's the empowered buyer i'm not talking to everybody i'm talking to business owners and leads that have a uh a world-class podcast and want to double their uh listening audience in the next 12 months and if you are nuanced enough smart enough to do that then uh you're going to win right because i'm speaking directly to you you're a segment of what you're going to be like oh my goodness i gotta call this guy back you won't call me back you'll email me or you just get on my calendar anywhere from 75 to 82 percent of the time and it's not just me right i just haven't have uh done it for a while have taught it to uh the folks at hubspot have taught it to partners at hubspot and now bring it to the world right the reason i got so excited is like ooh i i've traveled all through the uk i've uh spoken in london dozens of times manchester chester uh and uh uk audiences are a little bit different right uk humor is a little bit different a little bit ironic a little bit self-depreciating right i got a google british a little drier yeah yeah but it still plays right unless you're an introvert then my big energy is hugely annoying then i'm just going to back it down a little bit but with these techniques right we know that you're going to end it you just have to do the work and uh what we found is if you use these techniques if people say no they don't really mean no they mean not now right because virtually everybody in the uk wants to grow right and it's not so much like that in italy i don't know if you have a big italy following but sometimes when i talk to people in italy i'm like do you want to grow they're like not really that's the only place in the world that i found that they're not like it's not a number one thing but in the uk they're like yeah i want to grow i'm like all right what's your strategy and they're like well this is what we're going to do i'm like okay can you hit your goals keep doing what you're doing and they're like maybe i'm not quite sure i'm like all right let's just get on the calendar for 15 minutes let's see how i might be able to and uh with that ideal customer profile with that outreach four times over 12 days with including video with a being of service with uh ensuring that if somebody isn't ready to go you're like okay it's perfectly okay right at the time in which you decide you need to meet my services just remember the guy without the a lot of hair with the black glasses who is uh sent you the video uh and then just paying me and i'm happy to pick it up um when you're ready to go and that is part of the the plywood right the new way of selling is helping not pushing right to i've got one thing that i want to ask you about we'll wrap up here i'm conscious of time because we could i want to know what the next call looks like i want to learn more about the flywheel we'll have you back on down to dive into all this in the future but one thing and i think this is really important and i as a i've got zero budget in our company you know in the grand scheme of things right but sales people reach out to me and i connect with sales people typically in your words when they've earned the conversation or they've earned the call that first email is delete i just don't care i'm probably not gonna read it i'm busy the second fine human being will and you're just like every other business owner how many emails do you get a day uh you know to the actual account that passed the fill to not many but the pre-filtered account like 100 emails a day right so but when people work hard i feel like i've uh you know come on and we work with sales people trades sales people in the audience i'll give i'll give them a shot i'll get on phone with them i'll just give them something how important is it dan to have that mindset of earning the conversation as opposed to i feel like a lot of salespeople make a few calls try and use some weird manipulative tactics do some old-school selling it doesn't work on the first or second so they just give up they almost feel entitled whereas the opposite end of the spectrum the sales people who purposefully try to earn a call in my experience do way way way better how important is that mindset shift to make them it's all of it that's the uh leadership principle the inbound organization the book that i wrote right i also write wrote the uh forward to a book called inbound selling by brian cignarelli uh my buddy mark roberts is the first vice president of sales at hubspot and now the entrepreneur residence at harvard business school and i wrote the forward and we talked about how it's completely different right what you want is somebody to help you and if i can convince you in four emails and four phone calls that i can help you right it plays right to your heart right so selling is helping right and you don't sell technology right that's the big thing that hubspot figured out in 2007 right all we want to do is help you we don't even care if you buy stuff or not all i want to do is help you why because if i help you right you're going to have the exact opposite uh effect that that mini car dealership had tell that story take 30 seconds and tell them that the audience have heard the story many times but i'll give another analogy you walk into a shop in the uk be like some kind of um say you're buying a tv you walk to shop there's someone at the door it's a i used to be super spotty a sporty teenager and they go hey can i help and you go nope you don't even think about it you it just comes from your subconscious brain your upselling brain nope and the reality is they might be able to help you they could save 10 minutes 20 minutes of you faffing round but you've just totally got rid of them right and and that's what we're trying to avoid if i'm on the right tracks here we're trying to not be that person that gives that instinctive response of salesperson well i'm gonna say no no well i know you number one i only deal with business owners and leads number two i know what you want which is growth because i've worked in your segment for a while even if you're brand new you can figure out what you want with three customer reviews and talked into your senior management number three i'm at your service i tell people that uh i wrote this famous blog article that was called always be closing is dead how to always be selling uh how to always be helping right there's another great um blog article i wrote in hubspot blog called warm calling tips that we have they changed the name to uh all uh always be closing his dad always be helping to a new sales mantra right but in 2014 right i uh i went back into the funnel to test certain um like criteria and uh if i was even a little bit pushy right people would never call me that they'd ghost me they'd be like i'm not talking to that guy right if i called them and said well i'm at your service they're like excuse me they're like i'm like i want to help they like help with what i'm like it depends what do you need help with right usually it's around growth usually it's around podcast owners in the uk who are trying to grow their listening audience does that sound like you and they'd be like yes i'm like all right tell me about that and then they just go off sometimes for 15 minutes then it's completely different right and guess what if you and i met in a pub that's exactly what would happen i'd be making fun of your beard and the fact that you didn't know who your uh university mascot was it's a tiger by the way remember that and that um you like uh our um uh like different things that we saw and and things like as soon as you introduce a phone right then it gets all weird right but it doesn't have to right it's like um that human kind of approach and what i just described is a great way of getting your humanity across in 20 seconds right and if you get mr grumpy you're like oh my goodness i i get hung up on about one and a half percent of the time right i just get the guy he he uh had to take his dog to the vet his kid got kicked out of school for smoking weed something like that and he's just in a bad mood and he hangs up on me i sent him a video i'm like oh well i'm so sorry i i must have caught you a bad time i'm at your service right i ran this report about your uh ability to generate more leads inbound i wanted to hand it to you and if there's ever anything i could do people will actually call me on that one right and they'll be like who are you are you a martian oh my goodness i hung up on you and you sent me a video i'm like yeah that's kind of the way we roll i everybody has those kind of things and in a global pandemic or emerging for a global pandemic that humanity is really uh unique and people naturally gravitate to it right and then you build up your flywheel then more and more people like no it's the exact opposite of your car example then people like no no go talk to tyre and that happens to me now like eight times a day after being in upspot for 14 uh years people like no you got to talk to this guy's amazing all he wants to do is help help you get that reputation it's all downhill from there final question this is massively uh loaded in that we all know what the answer is going to be from you but i think this would be valuable for the audience should sales be even if we're on our kitchen table listening to this making calls right should we be suited corporate boring stagnant or should sales if done right be fun ah it's unbelievably fun the reason i went into sales is number one to uh have fun number one number two to learn stuff number three to make money right i've changed my mantra in 2014 to doing the most good for the universe right the reason i'm still in hubspot 14 years in is uh hubspot makes this big impact right we teach this all the time you go to hubspot academy right you can learn inbound sales right there's a plug right there it's free two or three hours it's a class right uh professor kyle jepson will teach you what i just talked about in regard to engagement and um uh outbound um calling and we give that away for free why because if you're doing it right there's more good process in the world if you're doing it wrong people will never speak to you again and it's still in the transformation process brian halligan our ceo says we're still in the second inning which uh for the uk means we're um still in the first 10 minutes of the football match yeah and um it goes on forever but if you're trying to do it the old way right if you're trying to sell technology services anyway you're not gonna if you're got a big heart if you focus if you're trying to help people oh my goodness it's a whole different ballgame and then people are so nice they're like tired they send me chocolate towers and knitted sweaters and all they're like oh my goodness like that's not a new that's unusual behavior they're like you were so nice you were thoughtful you decided to help me you weren't pushy at all when i ghosted you for six months you were like hey whatever now you have to run a little bigger funnel right you have to be available you have to make sure you're providing the right information at the right time but it's the right philosophy a management philosophy to help not sell if a customer sent me or a prospect sent me a knitted sweatshirt dan i don't know how i'd feel about that i might feel slightly uncomfortable i got 25 of them i know i know it's amazing uh first of all um it's fun second of all this is the new sales process called um inbound selling or um the flywheel right we have to do another session on that this means that your customers are more important than your sales team and i know that's very controversial on the salesman.org but uh it's true and uh there's ways that sales people can be um insightful thoughtful to make sure that that works and um the the bottom line is you want to lead with helping and if you do that right it will resonate with uh a a large group of folks for sure we've covered the marketing flywheel before it's probably i've had a conversation with uh your vp of marketing uh yeah off the record about this um which is translating some content for the show so i think we're all on board with this it's not controversial at all down and with that mate let's wrap up there tell us a little bit about the book and then where we can find more about you as well so when i started as the first sales person for upspot i didn't even do my bio you're a good interview well you skipped right over that and um like for um for me as the first salesperson first sales manager first sales director at hubspot um it was different with the outbound reach and inbound marketing resonated very very well but as a sales person i love those uh inbound leads right then it moved over to inbound marketing inbound sales or what we call inbound growth then i'm like no no wait a second what we just talked about we spent the last half hour talking about um the leadership principles of helping not sell and uh inbound organization is all about treating people like human beings which is important in the outbound process number two uh helping not selling number three looking at the data number four solving for the customer number five ensuring that uh you're delivering the right information to the right time and number six being persistent in a way in which uh it doesn't feel like you're being overbearing and those foundations right i was speaking um publicly about the inbound organization and this guy todd hockenberry is like i talk about this all the time let's write a book and i'm like okay i thought about it for like eight seconds and i don't know have you ever written a book will no have i act okay it's hard it takes hundreds of hours i thought writing a book was going to be like talk it's nothing like talking you got to be but the good news is i have the best co-author in the history of books and you can go to .inboundorganization.com you can download um all this free stuff that we do because we believe in the inbound process you can uh buy the book in bulk you can like see all the great stuff and uh it's been super fun to help spread everything that i've learned at hubspot all over the world 120 countries um to more and more sales marketing service support business leaders all over the world and where can we find out more about you specifically downtown yeah yeah connect with me on linkedin i'm an open book uh uh twitter at the entire instagram if you want to see pictures of my food dantire1 uh linkedin easy to find me dantire.com is my website and i'm at peopleservice to the extent of my bandwidth uh i'm always happy to help accelerate the sales process or support that people need hubspot offers great sales products our crm is free hubspot is got the number one uh crm for scaling businesses which is super fun and uh i'm happy to be associated with the company for the last 14 years amazing stuff well the audience have had a pre-roll from hubspot and advert probably about 10 minutes ago from hubspot i'm clearly bought into hubspot as well so hopefully that speaks volumes with yourself down and with that we'll link to everything we talked about in this episode or i will visualize and make everything as visual as possible we'll maybe put some kind of download or something together that documents it all and we'll host that over at salesman.org forward slash down and without me i genuinely appreciate your energy that you bring the insights of all this i might have to go for a friggin lie down afterwards to recover from from the bombardment that's what my wife said i've been sheltered at home for 14 months with my beautiful wife she's like okay the pool will be moved she goes all you do is yell at your computer for 12 hours a day which is pretty much it oh look this genuinely comes across it comes across as genuine so i appreciate that mate and with that one thank you again for joining us on the salesman podcast thank you very much